Topic: Comics on CD-rom (Read 968 times)

paw broon · « **on:** July 26, 2012, 09:14:56 AM »

This subject has reared its head again on comicsuk:-
http://www.comicsuk.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5048
and while the main consideration there has been on British comics pirated to disc, I mentioned in a post that there are many American pirated comics available on disc also. There is, however, a difference considering the amount of non-pd American material being reprinted legitimately but UK material has been largely ignored with publishers either not bothering, for a number of reasons and/or refusing reprint rights to individuals or companies who would like to test the market.
I can almost guarantee that there will be at least 1 dealer at the next Glasgow Collectormania with lots of pirated material on disc on his table, most of it non-pd American. While I have no time for this activity, I have posed the question that a case might be made for old British stuff on disc exactly because publishers will not put it out and will not grant rights. An interesting discussion and, at times, a bit barbed.
If you read the posts on the link, you will find the conditions of sale and supply quoted from a British comic. These conditions would suggest that buying a 2nd. hand copy is as illegal as pirating to disc.
(Opinions, anyone?

narfstar · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2012, 10:36:45 AM »

Illegal if you know it is pirated. Not as illegal as selling it. Should be a big difference.

narfstar · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2012, 10:57:14 AM »

Like Phil said, the digital copies have actually helped the paper sales. The main buyers of the Fletcher Hanks books were DCM/CB+ members. Where did most people learn about Hanks but here? I have stated before that I think bootleg scans are a zero sum. Three groups 1. Would never have bought the original anyway 2. Don't buy because they got the digital but would have 3. Buy because they liked the digital. I think the second and third probably balance out. Most of my new pulls come from me having read and liked a scan. Also many webcomics make their money from selling paper collections of their works.

MarkWarner · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2012, 12:10:27 PM »

I see this the whole time. Old material that is copyrighted, but the holder is doing nothing with it.

Not just books, but films and series.

When you contact them it is either you get no response (normal) or it's a no. Plus there is all the orphaned copyright stuff. But, I thought that there was a move to get these released.

Basically I think it's immoral to hold on to work not done by yourself, where on many occasions the creator is dead and just keep it sitting on a shelf. So how else will people be able to see then apart from pirate copies?

Anyway, CB+ has ONLY PD material and we still have so much more to upload.

JVJ · « **Reply #4 on:** July 26, 2012, 12:52:24 PM »

Quote from: narfstar on July 26, 2012, 10:57:14 AM

Like Phil said, the digital copies have actually helped the paper sales. The main buyers of the Fletcher Hanks books were DCM/CB+ members.

I fear that is misguided wishful thinking, narfstar. The Fletcher Hanks books went through multiple printings because they appealed to NON-DCM/CB+ people. People who were willing to PAY MONEY for the material, which is not a unifying trait of site members. I believe that there are no hard facts to support your statement. If you have some, I'd love to see them.

I'm afraid that pirating (both selling and buying) are wrong. You, as a moral man, should have no problems with either concept. Situational morality is all too prevalent in our society. We say we believe in Public Domain rights (supposedly) in our description of the sites, but it seems that a lot of members aren't too bothered by buying DVDs or streaming downloads of non-PD material.

If someone has the rights to something, Mark, it is NOT immoral to "hold on to work not done by yourself". In what way is it immoral? YOU didn't have anything to do with the creation of it, either, so why should your interests supersede the law? What "right" do we have to "see" it other than our own curiosity and desire? Neither of which grants us ANY rights.

Sorry. I don't like orphaned works either, but these arguments are specious at best and self-serving at worst. I don't like the law as it is nor as it is proposed, but our disapproval doesn't give us the right to ignore or bypass the law. Suck it up and admit that there may be things you'll NEVER see - IF you want to remain a moral, upstanding person. If not, all bets are off, but don't try to cloak your decision in some moral justification of some abstract "right" that you have to see everything. Or that buying pirated works is less offensive somehow than selling them. That's simply self-delusional wishful thinking.

Peace, (|:{>

boox909 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2012, 01:30:52 PM »

Jim, (JVJ that is...)

I cannot disagree nor be offended enough by your post. Without being unruly or overly confrontational toward you, I state for the record that you do not speak for me on anything regarding public domain rights.

Please, leave any and all implications, assumptions, etc., that I am part of whatever group you think you are speaking for ... I may be part of said group, but you, as politely and tolerable as I can muster, do not speak for me in any area.

Regards,
B. (Chris)

narfstar · « **Reply #6 on:** July 26, 2012, 01:52:50 PM »

Seems this needs to stop now before anything boils over. No I do not have anything other than conjecture on my zero sum theory. I guess I have mostly contact with groups like DCM/CB+ that do a lot of the buying of books even with copies. That and the GCD crew that may have originals, reprints, Showcase/Essential editions and scans. Which I have most of the original Avengers, Marvel Triple Action, first couple Essentials and the Marvel produced DVD. So that is probably what shapes my zero sum notion. I wish there was a way to get some stats on it. I do think the vast majority are those who never would have bought the comic in the first place but I may be wrong. I think successful web to print comics may be some proof.

Jim you are correct that a copyright owner has the right to do as they please with what they own. My comment was in reference to their is greater legal penalty for selling than downloading. I do have a problem with the immoral copyright extension that was done purely politically (Sonny Bono). But the law is the law now. The only place I would fundamentally disagree is in orphaned work. I think these are OK to produce, and if the owner shows up they should be given any profits that may have been made and work stopped if they desire.

JVJ · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2012, 02:02:12 PM »

Boox (Chris),
I represent no group nor do I attempt to speak for anyone other than myself. I happen to believe in obeying the law. If that is offensive to you, so be it. I don't believe in pirating comics or videos or music. I strongly believe in the sharing of Public Domain material - to the point of sharing my collection for this project. Do you disagree with those positions? I am unsure which part of my post was disagreeable and offensive to you. It wasn't meant to be anything more than a statement of my principles - and I stand behind them.

I'm sorry that this somehow offended you. If you would explain what it is that made you mad, perhaps I can clarify my position for you and bring the tension down a bit.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

narfstar · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2012, 02:07:06 PM »

There will always be some strong feelings on the level of acceptable downloading of files. Some see it as a victim less crime, while others see it as a crime no less. Probably better to leave the topic because we try to avoid conflict on our forums. In these cases no party ever changes their mind anyway.

JVJ · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2012, 02:10:00 PM »

narf,
I STRONGLY agree with you regarding the immorality of the modern copyright extension laws. I hate them and all of the "70 years after the death of the creator" type laws that now exist. They are wrong and they were crafted by greed and by a disingenuous legislature. Yet they are the law. I like to think that we are a society of laws and I try to obey them. It's a personal choice. One we all have to make. And, you're right, nothing you or I say is going to alter anyone's position. C'est la vie.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

boox909 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 26, 2012, 02:11:50 PM »

Quote from: JVJ on July 26, 2012, 02:02:12 PM

Boox (Chris),
I represent no group nor do I attempt to speak for anyone other than myself. I happen to believe in obeying the law. If that is offensive to you, so be it. I don't believe in pirating comics or videos or music. I strongly believe in the sharing of Public Domain material - to the point of sharing my collection for this project. Do you disagree with those positions? I am unsure which part of my post was disagreeable and offensive to you. It wasn't meant to be anything more than a statement of my principles - and I stand behind them.

I'm sorry that this somehow offended you. If you would explain what it is that made you mad, perhaps I can clarify my position for you and bring the tension down a bit.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

Its all good with me Jim. I said my piece. No need for me to belabor.

Chris

JVJ · « **Reply #11 on:** July 26, 2012, 02:57:54 PM »

Fine by me, Chris,
as long as you realize that I have NO idea what you didn't like about the post. I didn't mean to start an argument and am happy to let it be, but I also DO like to know WHY things happen.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

MarkWarner · « **Reply #12 on:** July 27, 2012, 06:37:58 AM »

Jim (JVJ),

I WAS NOT advocating piracy or using any excuses for it. In fact I have no pirated material on my personal machines and as the admins know I am purging old files that have been sitting around in an unpublished "suspect folder". In a way morals do not come into it ... basically I don't want to get busted!

I just feel that it is wrong for works to be locked up and not to be seen. They are part of a cultural legacy. Well to be honest and being less pompous it probably is more to do with my curiosity. As for my desires I think we'll draw a veil over that one.

O BTW, no offense was taken here.

Regards,

Mark

paw broon · « **Reply #13 on:** July 27, 2012, 07:45:29 AM »

With some regret, I want to echo narfstar's call to end this now. I don't want it boiling over and I certainly didn't realise the depth of feeling that it would arouse when I started the subject. I am surprised, to say the least. Reactions are much stronger than those from contributors to comicsuk, where I expect to read very hard comments and replies. Apologies. But please do take time to read the points made on
http://www.comicsuk.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5048
if you haven't already done so. They are made by comics people, pros and students of the genre.
I was on the point of writing more as my views are hardening but I will not in case it sets something off again.
Hoping this finds you as it leaves me - in a conciliatory mood.

MarkWarner · « **Reply #14 on:** July 27, 2012, 11:38:22 AM »

O go on Paw, post away

paw broon · « **Reply #15 on:** July 27, 2012, 12:00:40 PM »

And just to be a bit pretentious, peut etre un peu plus tard. Je vais regarder le tv.
You sure about that, as I can get a bit carried away?

MarkWarner · « **Reply #16 on:** July 27, 2012, 12:10:57 PM »

Sure!!

Nothing better to get us up the Google rankings than a bit of forum handbag throwing lol.

BTW I guess the French means you are about to watch the opening ceremony

JVJ · « **Reply #17 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:00:09 PM »

Quote from: MarkWarner on July 27, 2012, 06:37:58 AM

Jim (JVJ),

I WAS NOT advocating piracy or using any excuses for it. In fact I have no pirated material on my personal machines and as the admins know I am purging old files that have been sitting around in an unpublished "suspect folder". In a way morals do not come into it ... basically I don't want to get busted!

I just feel that it is wrong for works to be locked up and not to be seen. They are part of a cultural legacy. Well to be honest and being less pompous it probably is more to do with my curiosity. As for my desires I think we'll draw a veil over that one.

O BTW, no offense was taken here.

Regards,

Mark

I meant no offense, Mark, to you, narf, Chris, paw, or anyone.

The two posts I saw, yours and narf's, taken together seemed to be dancing around justification of piracy and I thought that was a dangerous (and personally very objectionable) aura for the site. I volunteered my collection for a PD site and therein lies my "depth of feeling," as Paw puts it. I want to do what's right BECAUSE it's right. The end.

Like you, I don't have any copyrighted material on my computer, though I have looked at some for research/historic purposes - a "Fair Use", I believe. Also, like you, I despise the current laws, but I believe in the rule of law as a social glue. We can't only obey the laws we believe in. Madness and chaos lies there.

YMMV, and I have zero intention of getting into shouting matches with those with a different opinion. Life's too short. I just want to keep the site PD and I probably shouldn't have made that initial post except that excuses were being made and myths perpetrated that riled me. I'm sorry.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

MarkWarner · « **Reply #18 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:33:57 PM »

Jim,

This site will ALWAYS be PD rest assured on that point. And as I said even the stuff buried away in inaccessible files is being sifted through.

Also don't apologize, as I said it's extra food for Google

Regards,

Mark

narfstar · « **Reply #19 on:** July 27, 2012, 04:55:43 PM »

Yes I have newer comic scans. I have accounts at Comixology, Wowio, DriveThru, and Graphicly all of which get my hard earned sheckles. Since my LCS uses Comixology for pulling it is the one I use the most now. They give away a lot of free first issues that sucker me me in darn 'em. I get email offers from the others that drag me over and pull out my wallet. Nice thing about digital, is that, if you do not have to have issues as they come out you can wait, you can get most for 99 cents or $1.99. I recommend Near Death with back issues $1.99 I think at Comixology. I also recommend Dark Horse digital for FREE ongoing mini-issues of Falling Skies it is a pretty goood tv and comic series. Roy Thomas' Anthem is available at Wowio. Roy said they do pay creators. A few years ago I remember their being a problem so I asked him. And I buy these even though I know how to find almost anything I want for free. Like JVJ I do a lot of research for Roy and for others so having access to a large body of work is very useful.

paw broon · « **Reply #20 on:** July 28, 2012, 09:13:28 AM »

Well, chaps, I did write a big something else but fortunately took time to consider. I saved it for a rainy day though. Didn't see the point in digging it all up again. Suffice to say that millions choose which laws to obey and break each and every day. I've often recorded shows and given copies to friends. I await m'learned friends summons and those to all my friends. And there are millions of others who regularly decide that they know what speed limit is correct for which road, with all the attendant consequences. Talking on a mobile while driving is illegal here. Go outside and watch the cars for 10 minutes. And as for tax avoidance (that's the legal but immoral (see D. Cameron) one)?. Well, I have an ISA, and don't pay tax on the profits, all perfectly legal.
It's just the profit taking from these discs that concerns me. Find the files , download them, keep them safe for the future and when a legit. copy is released, buy that.
I also recommend Near Death, and Mudman, as long as we buy them.

narfstar · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2012, 11:15:44 AM »

Speaking of recommendations I still enjoy GFT Jungle Book. Interesting take on it and it is winding down with 4 out of 5 issues. It will be put out in a trade according to Comixology

misappear · « **Reply #22 on:** July 28, 2012, 07:52:21 PM »

I really don't know what I think about all this. So many laws, so many gray areas.

The one thing that complicates things for me the most, keeps me wondering, "what about this.....what about that....." is the existence of public libraries. Not just the regulations regarding their operation, but the whole theory of community, what with sharing knowledge and ideas and such. Every one with a copier.

-D

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Comics on CD-rom

Author Topic: Comics on CD-rom (Read 968 times)