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[JVJ]

JVJ -

I don't understand what this sentence means. I don't have a copy of Yellowjacket #1, so I don't know if "its one and only issue" means that Enwil published YJ #1? Frank Communale published YJ 2-4, so please restate your point here. Thanks.

Again, the info I was copying from my pc makes sense to me ... I should have cleared it up for people who think normally.  The statement is supposed to mean that YJ appeared in TNT 1,  the only issue of that title that I'm aware of.  Sorry that wasn't made clearer.

I understand completely now, jc. I don't own and have never seen TNT 1, so I couldn't make that leap.

The "aka Gerona" is info I'm taking from Overstreet's Price Guides.  I haven't purchased one in years [got tired of paying for 200 pages of ads], so maybe they read differently now, but in the copies I have, they list Gerona for every book, along with what they consider to be associated publishers.  Not having these books in hand, I can't confirm or deny for myself what the actual publishing info says inside the comic [I've only DL'ed KO Komics from here].  I take most everything from Overstreet with a grain of salt and usually look for confirmation from other sources.  Unfortunately, I've found some mistakes in the Keltner Index, too, so being unable to say "they're right, this is wrong" I just keep all the info together until I can straighten it out with a reliable source.

Alas, Overstreet never turned into that "reliable source" we all hoped it would be. I've been listed as a contributor since the second issue, and it's been about 35 years since I sent them any data. It was a great idea that got shanghaied by the dealers, who've never relinquished control. ONLY the comics themselves should be the source of such "aka Gerona" attributions. For all we know, someone at Overstreet decided to use that name because they liked the way it sounded. There is no evidence IN THE COMICS that it was anything other than another Wartime business that had a paper allowance that was available (for a price) to Baily or Jacquet or Temerson, or whoever. Using it as an "umbrella" company distorts the facts and subtracts from the clarity of the "big picture" we're trying to assemble.

Also, describing Frank Communale as "aka Charlton Comics" is akin to describing All-American Comics in 1942 as "aka National Comics". I think it's more accurate to say that Frank Communale was the precursor of Charlton.

That's just me being lazy.  Personally, I see a stronger connection between All-American & National than Communale & Charlton, but I lump C&C together for personal convenience.

There is a DEFINITE progression from Frank Communale, to Frank Publishing to Charlton but the names were applied sequentially, and to my mind "AKA" implies that they were used at the same time. It's nor the lumping together that I was objecting to, but the compression of the time factor.

I don't think it's Sam Cooper on the K-O Duke story.

That info is taken from the bailsproject site, which lists him as working on a Duke of Darkness story in 1945 [the site doesn't clarify what issue].  "My totally untrained eye" sees similarities between what he had done in Mr Justice stories and the KO Komics Duke story [again, I haven't seen the Top Spot story so I can't say anything about that].  Since Duke was published 2 years after the last Mr J story, I expect there to be a noticeable difference between the artwork of the two features [all artists change over time].

You're absolutely right that artists will change over time. I just happen to know what Sam Cooper changed INTO and I think that this Duke story would be a regression on his development path. As for the Bails Project - it is one of the most incredible efforts ever done for our hobby, much more important than the Price Guide IMHO. I've been involved with both, but this is a rational not an emotional statement. As long as one copy of each comic book exists (or now, even a scan of it) ANYONE could recreate the Price Guide framework (the prices are pretty much made up anyway, so you could do THAT, too). But Jerry Bails and Hames Ware using only the mail and the telephone (and occasional tape recordings) gathered the history of our hobby ONE CREATOR at a time. (somewhere in my attic I have reel to reel tapes of Hames' conversations with Rafael Astarita that I really want to listen to before I die...)

BUT, I was also instrumental in fleshing out the Who's Who credits. I still have THOUSANDS of data cards that I sent to Jerry after going over my comics story by story: COLANGE MA W 56 - Gene Colan has a Marvel War credit in 1956. These were painstakingly collated into the data base and then the cards were returned so that I could save myself the effort of resubmitting the same data. Every couple of years Jerry would PRINT OUT the thousands of pages and send me a copy of the current state of the data base so I could refer to what he already had and fill in holes as needed.

All of that is a prelude to saying that we were/are fallible and we didn't always get it right. It is VERY possible that I sent that K-O Komics to Hames back in 1980, he guessed Sam Cooper on the Duke of Darkness story and sent the info to Jerry who put it into the WW where it's remained ever since. This should take NOTHING away for Jerry's accomplishments, but the truth is NOTHING is ever perfect.

I don't want to disillusion you about how great the Bails Projects database is. I use it ALL the time. Just be prepared for the existence of new data that might invalidate the material posted there.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[phabox]

Being an old fashion kind of guy all my notes on Fox are in hardcopy and having recently had some work done on my home everything is still upside down right now so I can't lay my hands on them at the moment.

Its my aim to get straight by the start of the new year so Jim if you have the time and can put up with all my spelling mistakes I'll get them typed up and over to you to look over sometime after the holiday.

-Nigel

[Yoc]

Any help to prevent propagating myths on Fox and Matt Baker would be a great help on our project Jim!  Thanks for your offer!

-Yoc

[JVJ]

phabox,
I'll look forward to seeing the data you've accumulated - when you get the time - spelling errors on no. I just hope that you can reference the source of your info. Thanks.

yoc,
I have paid ZERO attention to such rumors. My approach to comics is to look at the books and MY own notes and observations and to collate them into data that can be proven. My return address label is VWinc which stands for Vadeboncoeur/Ware - Information Newly Compiled. That's what we do.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[bchat]

Alas, Overstreet never turned into that "reliable source" we all hoped it would be ... ONLY the comics themselves should be the source of such "aka Gerona" attributions ... Using it as an "umbrella" company distorts the facts and subtracts from the clarity of the "big picture" we're trying to assemble

Even when I was buying the Guides years ago, I knew that they were flawed and contained errors.  In the case of GA publishers, where various publishing names were used for tax reasons or whatever other reason, I'm especially leery of taking everything or anything the Guide says as "fact", which is why I search for other sources of information to validate whatever I might learn from them.  If nothing else, like Wikipedia, the Overstreet Guides make for a nice place to start.  To be fair, it's not just Overstreet that attributes Triple Threat, KO and Top Spot to Gerona, as bailsprojects lists only Gerona as the publisher of all three books.  

There is a DEFINITE progression from Frank Communale, to Frank Publishing to Charlton but the names were applied sequentially, and to my mind "AKA" implies that they were used at the same time. It's not the lumping together that I was objecting to, but the compression of the time factor.

.

The "aka Charlton" that I used was derived from info in Overstreet.  I do know better than that, but left it that way for personal preference [the history of the company and all that jazz].  For what I'm doing on my computer [which is not being done for any professional publication but just for my own personal use], I do this:  list the publisher as it appears in the comic itself when I have access to that information first-hand or from a reliable source, BUT group the book with an associated or "umbrella" publisher because it's a pain in the butt to go through dozens of files when I'm looking for information on something specific.  It's simply easier for me to go "this was published by Special Action, which is associated with Gerona, which has ties to Rural Home, so look in this folder" as opposed to "where the heck did I put that?"  

I certainly didn't ever think that what I'm doing for my own personal enjoyment would ever make its way onto the internet for any reason and apologize for posting any portion of it here.  It was not my intention to cause confusion, but your ealier statement of "Three of the four episodes" in reference to Duke of Darkness made me wonder if there was a fourth story, so I posted the information I was working with so that you would have an idea of what I was aware of, so if there was a fourth appearance you would be able to say "you have those three but missed his story from XYZ Comics".

I just happen to know what Sam Cooper changed INTO and I think that this Duke story would be a regression on his development path ... It is VERY possible that I sent that K-O Komics to Hames back in 1980, he guessed Sam Cooper on the Duke of Darkness story and sent the info to Jerry who put it into the WW where it's remained ever since. This should take NOTHING away for Jerry's accomplishments, but the truth is NOTHING is ever perfect.

Again, it was only MY assumption and mine alone that made any connection between Cooper and the story in KO Komics.  Maybe, as you say, giving Cooper credit for a Duke of Darkness tale (whichever issue it was) was a mistake that hasn't been corrected, or maybe he drew the Top Spot story, or maybe he just helped-out a little with the artwork on one of the stories ... I don't know.  Here's the information I have: the bailsproject site states that Cooper, Giunta and George Appel were all involved with The Duke of Darkness (might be seperate stories, might be the same story for all I know), The Triple Threat story carries the "Jay Gee" signature, and the KO story is uncredited.  You're telling me, based on your experience & knowledge, that the KO Komics' Duke story is probably not done by Sam Cooper.  You are much more knowledgable about these things than I am or may ever be, so that little bit of information goes into the pile.  Again, I apologize if what I typed came across to you (or anyone reading my posts) as my saying "I know for a FACT that Sam Cooper drew The Duke of Darkness story in KO Komics" because I don't know nor do I pretend to know.   I saw similarities between Cooper's work on Mr Justice and the Duke's story from KO, but I could also see significant differences as well.  My thoughts were "IF Cooper drew this story, he either got worse as an artist as time went by or it was done years before his work at MLJ".

[John C]

I think you and I would get along famously, jcolag (or fight like cats and dogs - but no middle ground...) as I agree with you totally, "What IS the evidence?" Hearing stories and misrembering stuff doesn't help much in pinning down facts.

A certain amount of the credit/blame should go to my high school American History teacher.  I've since learned that it's uncommon in public schools to have someone force you to distinguish between types of sources (first-hand versus second) and always, always, always keep to a thesis statement.  The blurb-oriented, stream-of-consciousness Internet has sadly broken me out of the thesis habit (hey, look at that shiny object!), but I've somehow remained militant about filtering information based on sources.

With Golden Age books, I find that's doubly important, simply on the basis that nobody really wanted to be there at the time.  That is, it making comics was an embarassing job, and everybody was just trying to pay the bills until something better came along.  Under circumstances like that, memories are going to be unreliable, because nobody was thinking in terms of posterity...and those that were, like Fox, happened to be notorious liars.

So if it wasn't written down for a business reason, even "general consensus" doesn't feel like a fact.

Cough.  Of course, that doesn't mean I never jump the gun or merely assume that things have been documented...but I also grew up after New Math had sunk in, so "it's the idea that counts."

[JVJ]

I think you and I would get along famously, jcolag (or fight like cats and dogs - but no middle ground...) as I agree with you totally, "What IS the evidence?" Hearing stories and misremembering stuff doesn't help much in pinning down facts.

A certain amount of the credit/blame should go to my high school American History teacher.  I've since learned that it's uncommon in public schools to have someone force you to distinguish between types of sources (first-hand versus second) and always, always, always keep to a thesis statement.  The blurb-oriented, stream-of-consciousness Internet has sadly broken me out of the thesis habit (hey, look at that shiny object!), but I've somehow remained militant about filtering information based on sources.

With Golden Age books, I find that's doubly important, simply on the basis that nobody really wanted to be there at the time.  That is, it making comics was an embarassing job, and everybody was just trying to pay the bills until something better came along.  Under circumstances like that, memories are going to be unreliable, because nobody was thinking in terms of posterity...and those that were, like Fox, happened to be notorious liars.

So if it wasn't written down for a business reason, even "general consensus" doesn't feel like a fact.

Cough.  Of course, that doesn't mean I never jump the gun or merely assume that things have been documented...but I also grew up after New Math had sunk in, so "it's the idea that counts."

Good on your History teacher, jc,
and I'm sorry to hear about that New Math indoctrination you got. I've heard that there are recovery groups you can join...

Nobody wanted to be in comics except Jack Kirby. We must always remember to make that exception.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[rez]

The King.
BTW, was it Kirby who penned the cover of KO Komics?

[/quote]



Nobody wanted to be in comics except Jack Kirby. We must always remember to make that exception.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
[/quote]

[JVJ]

Sorry, rez,
not so. Kirby-esque, indeed, but not The Man.

really.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[JVJ]

Even when I was buying the Guides years ago, I knew that they were flawed and contained errors.  In the case of GA publishers, where various publishing names were used for tax reasons or whatever other reason, I'm especially leery of taking everything or anything the Guide says as "fact", which is why I search for other sources of information to validate whatever I might learn from them.  If nothing else, like Wikipedia, the Overstreet Guides make for a nice place to start.  To be fair, it's not just Overstreet that attributes Triple Threat, KO and Top Spot to Gerona, as bailsprojects lists only Gerona as the publisher of all three books.

Welcome to the wonderful world of rippling information, bc. Did Overstreet get the attribution from the WW or vice versa? We'll never know, but once someone in a position of trust makes a call, it just spreads over the information sites like wildfire. It's one reason why I am so cautious about making a pronouncement without qualifying my answer or citing my source. Witness the "Howard Nostrand?" credit I made in a Three Rocketeers index that now appears everywhere WITHOUT the ?. And I'll bet that there is a listing in Overstreet now and perhaps even in the bailsprojects for Nostrand being there. Our hobby seems to WANT desperately to pad the resumes of our favorites. My response is that they don't NEED our help and that most "additions" come off as taking something away from their reputations rather than actually adding to them.

There is a DEFINITE progression from Frank Communale, to Frank Publishing to Charlton but the names were applied sequentially, and to my mind "AKA" implies that they were used at the same time. It's not the lumping together that I was objecting to, but the compression of the time factor.

.

The "aka Charlton" that I used was derived from info in Overstreet.  I do know better than that, but left it that way for personal preference [the history of the company and all that jazz].  For what I'm doing on my computer [which is not being done for any professional publication but just for my own personal use], I do this:  list the publisher as it appears in the comic itself when I have access to that information first-hand or from a reliable source, BUT group the book with an associated or "umbrella" publisher because it's a pain in the butt to go through dozens of files when I'm looking for information on something specific.  It's simply easier for me to go "this was published by Special Action, which is associated with Gerona, which has ties to Rural Home, so look in this folder" as opposed to "where the heck did I put that?"

I totally agree. Grouping what I term "sub-publishers" into an umbrella company is crucial to making ANY sense out of anything. I use caution when "assembling" the umbrella group. Trying to connect companies due to their characters is tempting, but I honestly believe that during this period of 1944-1946, the contents of many books was totally determined by the SHOP that was providing the material. If this is true, that means that Lloyd Jacquet or Bernard Baily were jobbers who worked for lots of TOTALLY SEPARATE companies providing different episodes of the same characters. There is a CONTENT connection, but not a PUBLISHING connection. (It's as if you would say that Continuity Studios provided Ms. Mystic for Pacific Comics and then for Continuity Comics, so therefore Pacific Comics = Continuity Comics.)

This MAY or MAY NOT be true, but there are several factors that make it likely. Hence, I'm hesitant to use the characters as the deciding factor. If ONLY more of these titles lasted long enough to have ownership statements...

I certainly didn't ever think that what I'm doing for my own personal enjoyment would ever make its way onto the internet for any reason and apologize for posting any portion of it here.  It was not my intention to cause confusion, but your ealier statement of "Three of the four episodes" in reference to Duke of Darkness made me wonder if there was a fourth story, so I posted the information I was working with so that you would have an idea of what I was aware of, so if there was a fourth appearance you would be able to say "you have those three but missed his story from XYZ Comics".

No, I'm GLAD you did, jc. It means I've found someone else who is interested in these crazy books enough to talk about them and record their thoughts and observations. You did GOOD!

I just happen to know what Sam Cooper changed INTO and I think that this Duke story would be a regression on his development path ... It is VERY possible that I sent that K-O Komics to Hames back in 1980, he guessed Sam Cooper on the Duke of Darkness story and sent the info to Jerry who put it into the WW where it's remained ever since. This should take NOTHING away for Jerry's accomplishments, but the truth is NOTHING is ever perfect.

Again, it was only MY assumption and mine alone that made any connection between Cooper and the story in KO Komics.  Maybe, as you say, giving Cooper credit for a Duke of Darkness tale (whichever issue it was) was a mistake that hasn't been corrected, or maybe he drew the Top Spot story, or maybe he just helped-out a little with the artwork on one of the stories ... I don't know.  Here's the information I have: the bailsproject site states that Cooper, Giunta and George Appel were all involved with The Duke of Darkness (might be seperate stories, might be the same story for all I know), The Triple Threat story carries the "Jay Gee" signature, and the KO story is uncredited.  You're telling me, based on your experience & knowledge, that the KO Komics' Duke story is probably not done by Sam Cooper.  You are much more knowledgable about these things than I am or may ever be, so that little bit of information goes into the pile.  Again, I apologize if what I typed came across to you (or anyone reading my posts) as my saying "I know for a FACT that Sam Cooper drew The Duke of Darkness story in KO Komics" because I don't know nor do I pretend to know.   I saw similarities between Cooper's work on Mr Justice and the Duke's story from KO, but I could also see significant differences as well.  My thoughts were "IF Cooper drew this story, he either got worse as an artist as time went by or it was done years before his work at MLJ".

I understood EXACTLY what you meant, jc. I simply didn't make MYself clear. Your suggestion (and that's exactly how I read it) of Cooper in K-O is the only one that MIGHT be him, since I have Triple-Threat here and it's obviously, as you say, by Giunta. And Top-Spot (which is off being scanned by narfstar(?)) is also Giunta in my notes. So K-O is the only one (of the three we know of) that it COULD be. What YOU didn't know (and I simply failed to mention because it is embarrassing) is that BOTH the Cooper AND the Appel attributions are incorrect. I believe that the Appel entry came from my original 1985 index as it ran in APA-I. Jerry Bails was a member and probably trusted me enough to accept that credit. What I said about Hames adding the Cooper credit is how I think THAT entry got into the WW. So my response above was hurried shorthand and I don't blame you for not getting my entire message - the entire message simply wasn't there.

You have NO reason to apologize, and I have several. When things quiet down a bit more and I get all of my comics back, I hope we can continue this discussion. Not to say that we should stop now, but just that I'm working under a slight handicap and might need to expand on my responses at a later date.

Good talking to you.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[JVJ]

Two additional things:
1. Why is this thread under "Help and Support" > "Suggestions"?

2. Did you know jc, that there are TWO versions of Tally-Ho Comics? This information may be common knowledge, for all I know, but I have two copies of Tally-Ho, famous for being the first signed Frazetta work in comics, but probably NOT his actual first work.

One of these copies has a regular indicia that list the book as "published annually by Baily Publishing Co. Vol. 1, No. 1, December, 1944 at 276 West 43rd. St. NY, NY."

The second copy is

[bchat]

Welcome to the wonderful world of rippling information, bc. Did Overstreet get the attribution from the WW or vice versa? We'll never know, but once someone in a position of trust makes a call, it just spreads over the information sites like wildfire. It's one reason why I am so cautious about making a pronouncement without qualifying my answer or citing my source. Witness the "Howard Nostrand?" credit I made in a Three Rocketeers index that now appears everywhere WITHOUT the ?. And I'll bet that there is a listing in Overstreet now and perhaps even in the bailsprojects for Nostrand being there. Our hobby seems to WANT desperately to pad the resumes of our favorites. My response is that they don't NEED our help and that most "additions" come off as taking something away from their reputations rather than actually adding to them.

The last time I purchased a copy of Overstreet, the internet was just really finding its footing, so I can't comment on what it might say in newer additions.  As you say, though, it's a big problem when one person says something and then everyone takes that as gospel and runs with it.  It's why I question statements such as "Frank Temerson was involved in the mob" (a statement I've seen in several places) until I see from a reliable source whether or not it's true or simply someone's idea of a good story.  It certainly doesn't help when a publication like Overstreet takes forever and a day to fix errors and make corrections, if they even take the time to make sure what they pass-off as "accurate" is, in fact, accurate.  It's unfortunate that Price Guides, where there's people that make a career out of providing fans with information, simply don't care how accurate that information might be.

I totally agree. Grouping what I term "sub-publishers" into an umbrella company is crucial to making ANY sense out of anything. I use caution when "assembling" the umbrella group. Trying to connect companies due to their characters is tempting, but I honestly believe that during this period of 1944-1946, the contents of many books was totally determined by the SHOP that was providing the material. If this is true, that means that Lloyd Jacquet or Bernard Baily were jobbers who worked for lots of TOTALLY SEPARATE companies providing different episodes of the same characters. There is a CONTENT connection, but not a PUBLISHING connection. (It's as if you would say that Continuity Studios provided Ms. Mystic for Pacific Comics and then for Continuity Comics, so therefore Pacific Comics = Continuity Comics.)

This MAY or MAY NOT be true, but there are several factors that make it likely. Hence, I'm hesitant to use the characters as the deciding factor. If ONLY more of these titles lasted long enough to have ownership statements...

I only used the characters to "determine connections" because I came to the conclusion, using Keltner's GA Index, that Overstreet's Guide was wrong in attributing Triple Threat to Holyoke and that group of books/publishers.  It never occurred to me that the shops were producing books for various publishers in a (forgive the term) hap-hazard way, with any connection between Gerona and other publishers being arbitrary if not non-existent.  And your example of Continuity/Pacific had crossed my mind earlier as I was typing my previous response.  The example I had my head was "Groo the Wanderer" and linking Pacific, Eclipse, Epic, Image and Dark Horse together as a "group of publishers" based on the content of one book that was creator-owned.

I certainly didn't ever think that what I'm doing for my own personal enjoyment would ever make its way onto the internet for any reason and apologize for posting any portion of it here.  It was not my intention to cause confusion, but your ealier statement of "Three of the four episodes" in reference to Duke of Darkness made me wonder if there was a fourth story, so I posted the information I was working with so that you would have an idea of what I was aware of, so if there was a fourth appearance you would be able to say "you have those three but missed his story from XYZ Comics".

No, I'm GLAD you did, BC. It means I've found someone else who is interested in these crazy books enough to talk about them and record their thoughts and observations. You did GOOD!

Thank you.

I understood EXACTLY what you meant, BC. I simply didn't make MYself clear. Your suggestion (and that's exactly how I read it) of Cooper in K-O is the only one that MIGHT be him, since I have Triple-Threat here and it's obviously, as you say, by Giunta. And Top-Spot (which is off being scanned by narfstar(?)) is also Giunta in my notes. So K-O is the only one (of the three we know of) that it COULD be. What YOU didn't know (and I simply failed to mention because it is embarrassing) is that BOTH the Cooper AND the Appel attributions are incorrect. I believe that the Appel entry came from my original 1985 index as it ran in APA-I. Jerry Bails was a member and probably trusted me enough to accept that credit. What I said about Hames adding the Cooper credit is how I think THAT entry got into the WW. So my response above was hurried shorthand and I don't blame you for not getting my entire message - the entire message simply wasn't there.

You have NO reason to apologize, and I have several. When things quiet down a bit more and I get all of my comics back, I hope we can continue this discussion. Not to say that we should stop now, but just that I'm working under a slight handicap and might need to expand on my responses at a later date.

Top Spot's being scanned?!  Yay!  Regarding Cooper and Appel, thanks for the corrections.  I like knowing as much as I can about this kind of thing, but realize it's hard to get facts straight 70 years after the work was done, especially when drawing comics was more of a "job" back then, rather than the "art" it's turned into today (no disrepect intended towards today's comic artists), and the GA creators were just working hard to keep a roof over their heads and not always worried about making sure everyone knew what they worked on.  With The Duke of Darkness specifically, for whatever reason, I've really taken a liking to the character, so I enjoy learning as much as I can about the stories, such as who worked on them, so I greatly appreciate your help in straightening things out.

1. Why is this thread under "Help and Support" > "Suggestions"?

Because it was started by Henry Peters who suggested consolidating the books "related" to Rural Home into one folder.  It appears we've taken the thread into a slightly different direction.

[narfstar]

It does not matter what might link them it seems that Green Turtle and Duke of Darkness have a following here. I find the Duke very interesting also. Yellowjacket is another obscure character that is a favorite around here. Shows how we who dwell at GAC have some other similarities of interest.

[bchat]

It does not matter what might link them it seems that Green Turtle and Duke of Darkness have a following here. I find the Duke very interesting also. Yellowjacket is another obscure character that is a favorite around here. Shows how we who dwell at GAC have some other similarities of interest.

Yes, I have to admit that I like Yellowjacket, too.  I find him a visually appealing character, except for the cape ... sideways stripes just don't work for me except on old hockey jerseys.  It's a shame that The Duke, Yellowjacket and others came-out towards the apparent end of the superhero boom and didn't last a little longer.  One of the things that I like about The Duke is that in the two stories I've read so far, he has real villians, not just the run-of-the-mill crooks and thugs.

[JVJ]

Now you guys know how exciting it was to me way back in 1984(?) when I got my copy of APA-I with Mark Carlson's discussion of these titles! I'd been collecting them just because they were interesting, but I'd never researched them or indexed them carefully and now here was SOMEBODY ELSE who like these obscure titles from short-lived companies. It was Mark that prompted me to utilize my very first computer (an HP 150, if anybody remembers those) to write a dBase program to collate all of the data (characters, addresses, etc.) in various ways. I still have those printouts (but not the data files, sadly). And I really haven't added anything to collated lists is fully 25 years (yikes!).

Finding like-minded souls here is welcome, I assure you.

The Green Mask is THE most unique character in the history of comics. I really wish someone had found and interviewed Chu Hing (or Hing Chu). I would have loved to hear his story about why he drew the character the way he did.

All for now. Bud's on his way over and we have some cool comics to share and discuss. See you sometime tomorrow.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[narfstar]

While I still communicate and index with GCD, this site seems to have more souls in line with my likes and dislikes. I guess the PD-GA makes that happen. The neat thing is our appreciation for the little know guys.
Marvel-DC-Fawcett will always be big but here is a bunch of us who so fondly appreciate the little guys. JVJ has mentioned some as being second tier shop guys. Some are not the best but may still have that certain something. Patenuade and Altman did some fun stuff. Check out Will O' The Wisp in Key Comics #5 it is one of my favorites. John Giunta art looks pretty darn good to me and wonder why he was not first tier.

[bchat]

While I still communicate and index with GCD, this site seems to have more souls in line with my likes and dislikes. I guess the PD-GA makes that happen. The neat thing is our appreciation for the little know guys.
Marvel-DC-Fawcett will always be big but here is a bunch of us who so fondly appreciate the little guys. JVJ has mentioned some as being second tier shop guys. Some are not the best but may still have that certain something. Patenuade and Altman did some fun stuff. Check out Will O' The Wisp in Key Comics #5 it is one of my favorites. John Giunta art looks pretty darn good to me and wonder why he was not first tier.

Personally, part of the interest/appreciation for me lies in discovering the stories, and in some cases the characters, for the first time.  Aside from reprints from AC Comics and online sites like Golden Years and Pure Excitement, I haven't seen many of these stories before discovering this site.  I was lucky enough to win an auction for "The Illustrated Collectors Handbook volumes 2 & 3" off eBay not long ago, and through that I learned about the characters "Shaman & Flame" from Golden Lad #5.  There's a sense of discovery that I can't get out from the characters of Marvel, DC, Quality and Fawcett that I've seen many times over the years, both in newer comics and from fan sites.  I don't really view characters like Yellowjacket, The Duke of Darkness or Captain Freedom as "little guys" because, to me at least, they are just as interesting as anything  "The Big Four" produced at the time.

And I agree with you that Giunta was a darn good artist and probably a big reason I like The Duke of Darkness as much as I do, aside from the fact that they're cool stories.  I also enjoy "The Magician from Mars" which he worked on with Malcolm Kildale and Michael Mirando, although I'm not sure how much of the artwork may have been his, if any.  Perhaps his lack of popularity has more to do with what he worked on rather than his talent level.

[narfstar]

Giunta was part of the shop system. My understanding is that those considered top tier would be given jobs for the to tier companies and the others given work for the lower tier. Giunta was given some covers which means they recognized his talent. He really has some great covers. I will be scanning Top Spot today. I do not think he put as much effort in this Duke story as he did in Triple Threat. I am really disappointed  that we know so few writers/creators. I personally am more a character/writer fan than artist fan. The Duke is just a really cool character regardless of the artist.

[OtherEric]

I really don't have anything useful to add to this particular discussion; I just wanted to make clear how informative and interesting I was finding it, however.

[rez]

A friend and I were looking at that cover a while back and both came to the conclusion that it didn't seem to have that certain Kirby something.

Thanks for the clarification.

Sorry, rez,
not so. Kirby-esque, indeed, but not The Man.

really.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[JVJ]

Posted by: narfstar
Insert Quote
Giunta was part of the shop system. My understanding is that those considered top tier would be given jobs for the to tier companies and the others given work for the lower tier. Giunta was given some covers which means they recognized his talent. He really has some great covers. I will be scanning Top Spot today. I do not think he put as much effort in this Duke story as he did in Triple Threat. I am really disappointed  that we know so few writers/creators. I personally am more a character/writer fan than artist fan. The Duke is just a really cool character regardless of the artist.

Narf.
There were MANY "shop systems" and I NEVER said that the Baily shop (where Giunta worked) had tiers of talent. My statement was in regard to the Jacquet Shop which had Carl Pfeufer, John Jordan, et al who provided material for Fawcett and Ed Ryan, Alonzo Vincent (Jack A Warren), Al Plastino, Claire Mo, etc. who provided material for Novelty. Then you get the 2nd tier of the studio who did work for the books we're looking at now: Chu Hing, Henry Kiefer, Fred Bell, Harold Delay (who sometimes worked at both tiers), Arnold Hicks, Gerald Altman, Ramona Patenaude, Harry Fisk, William Allison, etc. I find these artists more individual and interesting than some of the "top" tier talents, so calling them "second tier" is more in reference to their ASSIGNMENTS than their ABILITIES.

The divisions of talent were pretty dramatic and were probably based on pay scales: since Fawcett paid Jacquet better than Rewl did, Fawcett got the more expensive talent. [now THAT is speculation on my part, so please don't base a response around it as a fact - but if you have other theories that fit the facts, I'd love to hear them.]

NOW the Baily Shop on the other hand seems to have been fairly "level" AND it seems to have a rotating staff with the exception of Charles Voight and John Giunta and August Froehlich. Interesting enough, the Who's Who puts Mac Raboy as a co-owner of the Baily Shop. Wonder where than info came from? Anyway, here's the WW listing of the Baily Shop. I've marked it up in red the names I (personally, just me, my opinion, IMHO) think could be removed. Questionable entries I've marked in purple and additions are in green.

Studio personnel
       ALBRIGHT, NINA (pen/ink/) 1945-46    > 45 46
       AMES, LEE (pen/ink/) 1944-45 unconfirmed    > 44 45
       APPEL, GEORGE H. unconfirmed    
       BAILY, BERNARD (own/) 1943-46-    > 43 44 45 46 47 48
       BAKER, BRUCE c1945 unconfirmed    > 45
       BALDWIN, W. F. c1946 unconfirmed    > 46
       BARRY, DAN (dir/pen/ink/) 1946    > 46
       BRIEFER, DICK 1945 unconfirmed    > 45
       COHEN, MILTON (pen/ink/) c1945    > 45
       COOPER, SAM (pen/ink/) c1945    > 45
       DEL BOURGO, M. (pen/ink/) c1943    > 43
       FERGUSON, HOWARD (let/) 1944    > 44
       FRAZETTA, FRANK (pen&ink/) 1944    > 44
       FROEHLICH, AUGUST (pen/ink/) c1944-46    > 44 45 46
       FROHMAN, BURT (pen/ink/) 1946    > 46
       GALE, JERRY (wr/) c1943-45 confirmed by Marvin Levy    > 43 44 45
       GATTUSO, PAUL (pen/ink/) mid-1940s    > 44 45 46
       GIUNTA, JOHN (pen/ink/) 1944    > 44 45
       GOLDEN, ROBERT unconfirmed    
       HENNING, BILL (pen/ink/) c1944-45    > 44 45
       HICKS, ARNOLD (pen/ink/)    
       HOLLINGSWORTH, ALVIN (pen/ink/) mid-1940s    > 44 45 46
       INFANTINO, CARMINE (pen/ink/) c1945    > 45
       JOURDAIN (pen/ink/)    
       KANE, GIL (pen/ink/) 1946    > 46
       KIEFER, HENRY C. (pen/ink/) 1945    > 45
       LEAV, MORT unconfirmed    
       LEE, LESTER (wr/) 1945 possibly part of the team LEE/SCHERTZ    > 45
       LEVY, MARVIN (ink/bkgrd/) 1943-46    > 43 44 45 46
       LITTLE, FRANK (wr/pen/ink/) 1944-45    > 44 45
       MORGAN, FRED (pen/ink/)    
       PADDOCK, MUNSON (pen/ink/) 1945    > 45
       POST, HOWARD (pen/ink/) 1945-46    > 45 46
       PROSS, AL (pen/ink/) c1945    > 45
       RABOY, MAC (co-own/) c1944-45    > 44 45
       RICE, PIERCE (pen/) 1943    > 43
       SCHERTZ (pen/ink/) 1945-46 part of team LEE/SCHERTZ    > 45 46
       SHERMAN, HAROLD (pen/ink/) 1945-46    > 45 46
       STAHL, AL (pen/ink/) 1945    > 45
       STALLMAN, MANNY (pen/ink/) 1945    > 45
       STONER, E. C. (pen/ink/)    
       TIRMAN, IRVING (pen/ink/) c1943-45    > 43 44 45
       TYLER, AL (pen/ink/)    
       VOIGHT, CHARLES (pen/ink/) c1945-c46    > 45 46
       WARREN, ALONZO c1945 unconfirmed
John Giunta was, by any standard of measure, a "top tier" talent. I think (again note that I am prefacing this with an "opinion" label) that Giunta chose to work for Baily as a "big fish" in a "small pool" role. I also THINK that one of the appeals of the first Duke of Darkness strips is that Giunta was assisted on them by Frank Frazetta. Nothing to back that up beyond my eyes, however.

Here's MY take on some of the "connectivity" of these oddball titles: Baily seems to have been a "broker" of comic material to anyone with a paper quota during WWII. I believe that Baily (and in some cases, Baily's artists) OWNED their characters and when a Baily Shop customer showed up with a paper supply, the shop would fill a new comic title for them with the next installments of whatever they had sold to the previous customer - as if the were certain that the previous client wouldn't return? Since the copyrights were owned internally, there was never a conflict.

I heard directly from the mouth of Manny Stallman, sitting here in my own living room, that Giunta seemed to have problems completing jobs. Manny worked with him for several years, especially at Harvey horror, and would not elaborate on that statement. And I won't speculate. Suffice it to say that Giunta DID have a productive career (DC, Marvel, Avon, Fawcett, Prize, Holyoke, Hillman, etc.) but his output levels never seemed to live up to his contemporaries.

Again I agree with bchat that these characters were much more visceral than the sanitized and repetitive heroes of the big guys' comics. And they didn't survive long enough to be done to death. PLUS you can (almost) afford to buy the comics. Lots of pluses on their side - especially the fun part.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[bchat]

narfstar -

Giunta was part of the shop system. My understanding is that those considered top tier would be given jobs for the to tier companies and the others given work for the lower tier. Giunta was given some covers which means they recognized his talent. He really has some great covers.

Just poked around the net and found some of his covers.  Some I had already seen before but was unaware that they were done by him.  Nice stuff.

I will be scanning Top Spot today. I do not think he put as much effort in this Duke story as he did in Triple Threat.

Yay!  I look forward to finally seeing it.

I am really disappointed  that we know so few writers/creators. I personally am more a character/writer fan than artist fan. The Duke is just a really cool character regardless of the artist.

That's one nice thing about the internet:  it's quick & easy to pass the information around between people who otherwise might never meet.  Still, I feel that part of the fun is trying to figure-out the "behind-the-scenes" information, with different people having different pieces of the puzzle.  Even for stuff that's only 15 years old, that was published before the net was the place to be, where the only information available may be in long forgotten magazines or is inside the creators' heads, it's kind of fun to have a question about a series that maybe only I care about and then hunt for an answer.

I lean more towards following characters, with artists being the second most important thing.  No disrespect to writers, but the artists are the ones who make the stories visually appealing, and it's easier for me to not like a story based on the artwork than it is for me to like a story based on writing alone.

JVJ -

John Giunta was, by any standard of measure, a "top tier" talent. I think (again note that I am prefacing this with an "opinion" label) that Giunta chose to be work for Baily as a "big fish" in a "small pool" role. I also THINK that one of the appeals of the first Duke of Darkness strips is that Giunta was assisted on them by Frank Frazetta. Nothing to back that up beyond my eyes, however.

I guess the natural assumption a lot of people make is that professional artists always strive to put themselves in a postion where they can "call the shots", so to speak, where they can work on the best paying assignments or work for the high-profile companies.  For example, a lot of today's artist, when asked, would say they want to work on characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, etc, or on their own creator-owned books.  The tendency, in my opinion, is to forget that some people are just happy to be doing what they're doing and that "Fame & Fortune" isn't important.  It could very well be that Giunta didn't care what he drew as long as he was getting paid to draw.  The upside is that characters like The Duke of Darkness had a "top tier talent" working on them rather than a "forgettable talent".

Here's MY take on some of the "connectivity" of these oddball titles: Baily seems to have been a "broker" of comic material to anyone with a paper quota during WWII. I believe that Baily (and in some cases, Baily's artists) OWNED their characters and when a Baily Shop customer showed up with a paper supply, the shop would fill a new comic title for them with the next installments of whatever they had sold to the previous customer - as if the were certain that the previous client wouldn't return? Since the copyrights were owned internally, there was never a conflict.

Your take makes a lot of sense, especially if the publishers they were dealing with didn't care enough to check whether or not other publishers were producing books with the same features.  Of course, it could also be that those publishers didn't care even if they did know they were sharing characters with other companies as long as they could make money.

[JVJ]

narfstar -

I will be scanning Top Spot today. I do not think he put as much effort in this Duke story as he did in Triple Threat.

Yay!  I look forward to finally seeing it.

Me, too. Even though it's my book, I haven't really looked at it in ages, and several times during this discussion I REALLY wanted to see it. No pressure, narf...

JVJ -

John Giunta was, by any standard of measure, a "top tier" talent. I think (again note that I am prefacing this with an "opinion" label) that Giunta chose to be work for Baily as a "big fish" in a "small pool" role. I also THINK that one of the appeals of the first Duke of Darkness strips is that Giunta was assisted on them by Frank Frazetta. Nothing to back that up beyond my eyes, however.

I guess the natural assumption a lot of people make is that professional artists always strive to put themselves in a postion where they can "call the shots", so to speak, where they can work on the best paying assignments or work for the high-profile companies. ... It could very well be that Giunta didn't care what he drew as long as he was getting paid to draw.  The upside is that characters like The Duke of Darkness had a "top tier talent" working on them rather than a "forgettable talent".

Or Giunta had poor work habits and needed a place to be where the schedules were looser and he could work at his own pace. Either way, the end results were cool, if erratic in both schedule and quality.

Here's MY take on some of the "connectivity" of these oddball titles: Baily seems to have been a "broker" of comic material to anyone with a paper quota during WWII. I believe that Baily (and in some cases, Baily's artists) OWNED their characters and when a Baily Shop customer showed up with a paper supply, the shop would fill a new comic title for them with the next installments of whatever they had sold to the previous customer - as if the were certain that the previous client wouldn't return? Since the copyrights were owned internally, there was never a conflict.

Your take makes a lot of sense, especially if the publishers they were dealing with didn't care enough to check whether or not other publishers were producing books with the same features.  Of course, it could also be that those publishers didn't care even if they did know they were sharing characters with other companies as long as they could make money.

My guess is that these "publishers" were all taking advantage of their paper allowances and instead of publishing FOUR issues of "Swappers Quarterly" in 1944 they opted for the profits from one issue of Tally-Ho Comics as carefully explained to them by Baily's "sales rep". Swappers Quarterly was NEVER going to publish another comic book, so they probably a: didn't know what was in the one they "published" and b: didn't care much that the characters had or would appear elsewhere. Why should they? They were only in it for the money. Others must have been doing the same thing. One Rural Home title, Red Band #3, was published by Publicaciones Recreatives in Mexico. Those guys probably didn't even speak the language that their comic was printed in. It's unlikely that they were overly concerned about the contents.

It's a fascinating bunch of books, and it seems to me that we ought to put our collective heads together and come up with some "help and suggestions" as to which books belong under Rural Home - since this is the thread for that.

When I put my list together so long ago, I lumped the following into my "Rural Home" umbrella (as somehow the precursors to Our Publishing Co.). I haven't thought about it for years, so I'm just throwing it out as a starting point. Anyone have any additions (with reasons why) or subtractions, ditto?

RURAL HOME
BLAZING            Rewl/Rural Home*
BLUE CIRCLE       Rewl/Rural Home*
CIRCUS   1,2      Farm Women's Publishing
EAGLE               Gail Hillson
NAVY HEROES    Almanac Publishing (no overriding reason to think it's Rural Home)
RED BAND          Publicaciones Recreatives*
RED CIRCLE        Rural Home*

* These four (and ONLY these four) comic titles have a listing for "Ad rep: Universal Comics Group, 15 E. 40th St. NYC"  That is to say that NONE of the other titles we've been talking about (that I've collectively called "Carlson's Comics") have a reference to Universal.

Has anyone else noticed the "connection" in such names as Farm Women's, Almanac, Rural Home, Swapper's Quarterly, etc.? The specialized rural women's magazine market must have been taking a big hit because of the war.

Anyway, YOUR thoughts?

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[bchat]

One Rural Home title, Red Band #3, was published by Publicaciones Recreatives in Mexico

The Golden Age Index by Howard Keltner states that there were four issues of Red Band, all published by "Publicaciones Recreatives", with issue 4 being an near-exact duplicate of issue 3, just the issue number and date were changed.  Was the entire four-issue run published by Publicaciones Recreatives or just issue 3?  Don't mean to throw a nit-picky question at you, I just wanted comfirmation on the GA Index was telling me.

Or Giunta had poor work habits and needed a place to be where the schedules were looser and he could work at his own pace. Either way, the end results were cool, if erratic in both schedule and quality.

Well, I can't comment on the consistent level of quality that his work had or didn't have over the years since I haven't seen very much of it aside from what little I've downloaded from here and the few covers I've looked at posted around the net.  The interest is definitely there to see more of his work.

RURAL HOME
BLAZING            Rewl/Rural Home*
BLUE CIRCLE       Rewl/Rural Home*
CIRCUS   1,2      Farm Women's Publishing
EAGLE               Gail Hillson
NAVY HEROES    Almanac Publishing (no overriding reason to think it's Rural Home)
RED BAND          Publicaciones Recreatives*
RED CIRCLE        Rural Home*

From the same GA Index, I see that Cannonball Comics and Mask Comics [two issues each] were both published by Rural Home.

[narfstar]

Jim I tend to oversimplify some times when I should not. I hope to have most of your books scanned over vacation. We can examine the indicias and see what we think.