Print

[Watney]

 I like making list of all sorts. I am stuck finishing off National's Top Ten heroes. I have not read many Golden Age comics, but I think the following is a good ranking of the greats:

Superman, Batman, Flash, Hawkman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman.

Need two more. No Quality or Fawcett characters. I am leaning towards Robin the Boy Wonder (do sidekicks count alone?) and Starman. Thanks in advance.

Yeah, I am in a DC mood and after this list, I will ponder why Aquaman and Green Arrow outlasted almost everyone else. I think oversight has a lot to do with it.

[phabox]

Doctor Fate and The Spectre were two of my all time favourites though to be honest they were fairly short lived.

Longer lasting DC Heroes were Johnny Quick, Robotman and The Vigilante, then there was also the Martian Manhunter but he might be too much of a later comer with a 1955 debut to count.

-Nigel

[JonTheScanner]

Green Arrow & Aquaman outlast the others because they were in Adventure behind Superboy.  Similarly Congo Bill lasted a long time in Action.  The fact the Mort Weisinger created them (not CB -- the other two) probably helped as well.  

Aquaman was actually pretty minor in the Golden Age.  He was never cover featured.  Green Arrow was -- on More Fun.  Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern were clearly the top 5 each getting their own comic.  Hawkman was probably number six as he almost did.  But it depends on what you count.  Boy Commandos had their own comic plus appeared in Detective and for a while in World's Finest.  If you just want super-heroes though, seven through ten were probably Sandman who was a long-time cover feature on Adventure, Starman (ditto), Dr Fate and Green Arrow (both long time cover features on More Fun).  With perhaps Spectre or Johnny Quick replacing one of those.

Of course if you count Robin, he's way up there at at least number 6 and he did have his own cover featured story in Star Spangled for a while.

[Astaldo711]

I also like Dr Fate and Spectre. The Atom was another one I always had a penchant for.

[John C]

Making things harder, Hawkman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman are technically All-American, not National.  That could change the game a little bit.

Assuming National-only, obviously the top of the list is anybody who got his own title without a crutch, Superman and Batman.  They also kept their anthology spots and got World's Finest gigs.

After that, I'd suggest anybody who was in the JSA--All-Star was a "tryout" book, after all, and if you made it there, then you got your own title (Flash and Green Lantern did exactly that).  So in the early days, the members would only be characters with the potential to launch on their own.  That would be the Spectre, Dr. Fate, Sandman, and (shockingly, in my eyes) Hourman.  Starman's also a possibility for the same reason.

I might also assume that Leading (and thus the Seven Soldiers of Victory) was originally intended for the same purpose, though I don't know that for sure.  If it is the case, though, then the Crimson Avenger, Star-Spangled Kid, Green Arrow, Shining Knight, and the Vigilante would also be near the top of the heap.  Probably not as high, though, since the team book didn't survive.  Which brings you to more than ten, I realize.

And it's probably no coincidence that Jon came to similar conclusions by looking at who ruled the cover spots.

On the All-American side, you have a similar reasoning, except that nobody started with a title.  Flash, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman are the obvious top choices.  Following them, you have Hawkman (the mainstay of the JSA and Flash Comics), the Atom, Johnny Thunder, and Dr. Mid-Nite.  I don't count Mr. Terrific and Wildcat, since they seem to have been last-minute additions, but you can.

Controversially, I'd probably also add the Red Tornado.  Why?  Because she's the only Golden Ager I can think of who was referenced and given a kinda-sorta legacy in the Silver Age.  To me, that suggests that Gardner Fox didn't think Ma would fit into a JLA/JSA crossover, but thought there was enough brand recognition to reuse the name and mention the original.

Johnny Thunder and the Star-Spangled Kid may both need to get dumped off for getting replaced by their distaff sidekicks (though it puts Black Canary on the All-American list).  I'd say the same goes for Green Lantern, replaced by his dog, but he at least keeps his All-Star gig and keeps his name on the title.

Obviously, if you're talking about both National and All-American, that should give you a more solid field to choose from.  And no, I don't know how to count Robin, either.

[phabox]

Both Manhunter and The Guardian (of the Newsboy Legion) enjoyed 'cover status' for a time so for a while at least were being groomed as major stars aided no doubt by the Simon-Kirby brand name.

-Nigel

[Ed Love]

Yeah, I'd be tempted to replace Aquaman with the Atom who in addition to his own strip was with the JSA for almost the entire run so he must have been somewhat successful or well thought of though it hasn't carried over to today's hot writers who dismiss him as a hot-head.

I'd argue one of the last two spots should be the Vigilante. He was long lasting, appeared in his own strip as well as a super-team AND had his own movie!

Congo Bill matches that with longevity and his own serial as well.

Johnny Quick would be the dark-horse contender. He lasted awhile and appeared on some covers of More Fun.

[JonTheScanner]

Membership in the JSA (or Sven Soldiers) did indicate potential or hopeful star status at one point, but All Star started before Star Spangled or Sensation began and by the time those comics started, there was really no room for their heroes.  The JSA started specifically with two features each from Flash, AA, Adventure, More Fun.

If comics had stayed at 68 pages and if there'd been no AA_DC differential, I strongly suspect that Green Arrow and Johnny Quick would have replaced Dr Fate and Spectre (or if GA was busy in Leading), perhaps Aquaman, but that's less likely. 

Similarly Guardian would almost certainly have been the SSC replacement for Star Spangled Kid.  In fact, If Leading had continued as a team-up book, imagine the team changing to Superman (Action), Batman and Robin (Detective), Green Arrow and Speedy (More Fun then Adventure), Guardian (Star Spangled).  Perhaps Shining Knight would have stayed as a second feature from Adventure when MF and Adv switched characters and More Fun became all humor.  Then over the years, Johnny Quick and eventually Aquaman would have been the Shining Knght's replacement.  When Star Spangled converted to a war comic, it wouldn't have been too long a wait to add J'onn J'onzz as a replacement.  And there you have the JLA -- seven soldiers.

[OtherEric]

Depending on if you count him as a separate character or not (and I can see both sides of the argument) SuperBOY was quite successful in the later Golden Age.

I suspect a large part of the reason Shining Knight survived instead of Sandman after the Adventure swap was his Seven Soldiers membership, even if Leading had switched formats by the time of the More Fun/ Adventure changeover.  (I don't know how long they were preparing books in advance; at least one Seven Soldiers script was written but not used in the GA.  It eventually popped up as a serial in Adventure in the 70's.)  I'm fascinated by the whole swapover; trying to figure out what DC was thinking on those books.  I'm convinced that at some point the plan involved canceling Adventure for a humor book; only there have always been advantages to keeping numbering going.  More Fun was a better title for a humor book; while Adventure was better for the superhero book.  But with the new Adventure essentially being More Fun with one new feature, I suspect the plan until fairly late was to keep More Fun more or less as is.

[John C]

Membership in the JSA (or Sven Soldiers) did indicate potential or hopeful star status at one point, but All Star started before Star Spangled or Sensation began and by the time those comics started, there was really no room for their heroes.

That's true.  And I suspect that the story of that time is more complicated than we normally think.  Sensation Comics, especially, seems to "stink" of the forming rift between National and All-American.  After all, Wonder Woman (and Sensation Comics as a whole, in its way) not only got a "secret" preview in the shared All-Star title, but she got ongoing appearances in the book.  That couldn't have made anybody on the National side happy.  And after the split, who got JSA membership to replace the National characters?  Two Sensation regulars.

But on the other hand, how many of those characters really took command of sales?  I love Mr. Terrific, but it's not like even comic fans had any clue who he was until he died in JLA.

And there you have the JLA -- seven soldiers.

I can go you one better.  Imagine if the temporary split between the companies hadn't ended and All-American died instead of National buying it out.  Then take a look at what JSA slots need to be filled and who's around in 1945 to fill them.

A lot of titles wind down that year.  So, other than the Seven Soldiers,  you mostly have Superman, Batman, Starman, Aquaman, Johnny Quick, Liberty Belle, and Robotman.  Other than Robotman, those are either future JLAers or fairly close counterparts.  And when Leading changes direction, that frees up Green Arrow and the Shining Knight (an obvious replacement for Hawkman, of course) to join the National-only team.

Not only that, but unlike the actual Justice Society, most of these heroes kept up their solo appearances until the young men at All-Star go West.  That makes me wonder a bit:  With the members able to survive without the team book and vice versa, would either or both have lasted longer?  If so, do we ever meet Johnny's successor Barry Allen?  Stellar Force member Hal Jordan and his alien Cosmic Ring?  Katar Hol the alien Shining Knight?  Or does the JSA limp along until getting a new lease on life in the Brave and the Bold fighting cosmic menaces?

This is the sort of exercise that goes on for a while, actually.  For example, Julie Schwartz said that he created Elongated Man for Flash's friend because he didn't know DC had bought Plastic Man.  At a smaller DC, might he have instead stolen Jimmy Olsen from the Superman books and made his Elastic Lad gig permanent?

If it were me, by the way, I'd keep a Robotman in the League.  The Martian can go hang out with the Doom Patrol in his place.  That's not only fitting for (much) later plots, but he's an obvious source for Beast Boy's powers and could easily stand in for Mento.

[JonTheScanner]

In the More Fun / Adventure swap, Dover and Clover remained in More Fun, so DC needed to keep one feature in Adventure as well to fill it out.  Why they picked Shining Knight rather than Sandman, say, I don't know.  I kind of suspect it was a realization that super-heroes were waning in popularity and Shining knight was a bit different.  I don't think it was due to Seven Soldiers.  The switchover occurred in (cover dates) March-April '46 (March was MF #108, April was Adv 103), but the last Seven Soldiers was a year earlier in Leading #14 Spring '45. 

As I recall there was some kind of agreement perhaps from the Nicholson-Wheeler bankruptcy that More Fun had to be published for ten more years.  AS I further recall it was canceled almost exactly ten years later.  This is probably too much later than the switchover to be related to it however.  I suspect DC simply thought More Fun made more sense as a humor title and Adventure as a Super-hero title.

[JonTheScanner]

I can go you one better.  Imagine if the temporary split between the companies hadn't ended and All-American died instead of National buying it out.  Then take a look at what JSA slots need to be filled and who's around in 1945 to fill them.

A lot of titles wind down that year.  So, other than the Seven Soldiers,  you mostly have Superman, Batman, Starman, Aquaman, Johnny Quick, Liberty Belle, and Robotman.  Other than Robotman, those are either future JLAers or fairly close counterparts.  And when Leading changes direction, that frees up Green Arrow and the Shining Knight (an obvious replacement for Hawkman, of course) to join the National-only team.

Actually Leading had already switched formats in Spring '45 before Detective acquired All-American and became National in Winter '45-6 (cover dates) so Green Arrow would have been available immediately.  Of course All-Star was an AA title with only AA heros at that point, so DC might not have continued to publish a JSA-type book.  If they had done so, Guardian, who continued as the cover-feature of SSC until early '47 would have been a very likely candidate.  Robotman would have been a possibility too and he lasted much longer in Detective.  Liberty Belle would have been one of the few possible females if they'd wanted one -- though Seven Soldiers never had one.  Starman is gone by April '46 and probably never makes it into the new 7S-JSA.

[OtherEric]

Oh, as long as we're speculating on might have beens, I might as well throw out my theory as to why the unpublished "Will of William Wilson" was 48 pages and therefore unusable in All-Star.  Roy Thomas and crew seem to be mostly speculating it was meant for some new book.  My theory is the word came down after the war "Paper rationing is over, we're going back to normal."  What was meant was that books like Adventure, All-Star, and so on, were going back to their old monthly or bi-monthly publishing schedules.  However, what Mayer or Fox thought was meant was that, in addition to the frequency increasing, the page count was going back to 68 pages.  (I'm convinced the reason comics are now 32 pages leads back to the paper rationing; if it wasn't for that we would have gotten price increases instead of page drops.  But needing to save paper meant the page drop was established as the policy for way too long.)  Since DC was never big on book length stories like AA was, the only title where an overlong story was still being written to cause a problem was All-Star.

Total trivial aside:  As far as I know, DC (as opposed to AA) only ever did stories of 32 pages or more (other than All-Star) during the 40's and 50's in one title.  Anybody else know the series; or possibly an answer I don't know?  (Small technical note:  They numbered the pages in the individual chapters separately on the book I'm thinking of; but the story title was the same throughout the book.)

[darkmark]

If it were me, by the way, I'd keep a Robotman in the League.  The Martian can go hang out with the Doom Patrol in his place.  That's not only fitting for (much) later plots, but he's an obvious source for Beast Boy's powers and could easily stand in for Mento.

Not so obvious.  I interviewed Arnold Drake once, and we talked about Beast Boy.  Not once did he mention the Martian Manhunter as a source.  He just said the name "Beast Boy" had a double meaning...because Gar Logan was a "pain in the ass!"

[JonTheScanner]

Total trivial aside:  As far as I know, DC (as opposed to AA) only ever did stories of 32 pages or more (other than All-Star) during the 40's and 50's in one title.  Anybody else know the series; or possibly an answer I don't know?  (Small technical note:  They numbered the pages in the individual chapters separately on the book I'm thinking of; but the story title was the same throughout the book.)

All Flash had some book-length stories as I recall.

[John C]

Actually Leading had already switched formats in Spring '45 before Detective acquired All-American and became National in Winter '45-6 (cover dates) so Green Arrow would have been available immediately. 

Actualy, it's close, but I don't think that's quite the case.  The National characters find themselves squeezed out of the Spring 1945 issue, whereas that's the month of the Seven Soldiers' swansong, presumably with the intention of running the story "in the can" in the summer.  From an editorial standpoint, that should mean that Green Arrow is otherwise engaged.

Plus, I can't help notice that he wasn't even pulled for the League's starting lineup.  It seems unlikely that the largely untested Martian Manhunter (a mere backup strip in a book belonginig decisively to Batman) would have been chosen over a character with an unbroken publishing history if the writers thought he was worth it.

Of course All-Star was an AA title with only AA heros at that point, so DC might not have continued to publish a JSA-type book. 

Yes.  Whereas you're looking at this from the perspective of resurrecting the (apparently failed, though not necessarily) Seven Soldiers, I'm looking at "stealing" the All-Star format.  It was, after all, a shared book in many ways.  So if All-American had dropped off the face of the Earth, it seems that the folks at National might have brought it back or something like it.

If they had done so, Guardian, who continued as the cover-feature of SSC until early '47 would have been a very likely candidate. 

That's true.  He's probably more likely than Aquaman, for example.  Especially if you're thinking more in terms of the Soldiers, whose aesthetic he fits to a T.

The Guardian is also interesting in that he has acquired such a long legacy of later characters, and yet remains thoroughly minor in the DCU.

Robotman would have been a possibility too and he lasted much longer in Detective. 

Exactly.  And given the Adam Link influence on the character, and Link's direction at the time toward large-scale menaces, it seems like a logical direction.

Liberty Belle would have been one of the few possible females if they'd wanted one -- though Seven Soldiers never had one. 

The Soldiers also lacked powers (with the exception of the horse).  I couldn't guess as to whether either case was intentional, however.  In this case, though, I mainly chose her under the assumption that there'd be a story to redraw for Wonder Woman.

Likewise, I normally wouldn't have used Batman, since editors were always so reluctant to do so.  But he's by far the easiest swap for Dr. Mid-Nite.  Add some ears and a symbol, explain away the glasses, and you're good to go for any story.

Starman is gone by April '46 and probably never makes it into the new 7S-JSA.

I suggest Starman mainly because he was still in the JSA at the time of the split and I wouldn't just dump him before cancellation.  If the Spectre weren't facing cancellation as this was all going down, I imagine he'd have remained, as well.

[John C]

If it were me, by the way, I'd keep a Robotman in the League.  The Martian can go hang out with the Doom Patrol in his place.  That's not only fitting for (much) later plots, but he's an obvious source for Beast Boy's powers and could easily stand in for Mento.

Not so obvious.  I interviewed Arnold Drake once, and we talked about Beast Boy.  Not once did he mention the Martian Manhunter as a source.  He just said the name "Beast Boy" had a double meaning...because Gar Logan was a "pain in the ass!"

Oh, I didn't mean "source" as in "it was a stolen idea."  More that, if Drake had been handed the Manhunter as a lead character, the reason for a green, shape-changing kid is dramatically simplified.  And if J'Onn also becomes Steve Dayton, adopting the kid is required by all comic book logic as well as history.

[OtherEric]

Total trivial aside:  As far as I know, DC (as opposed to AA) only ever did stories of 32 pages or more (other than All-Star) during the 40's and 50's in one title.  Anybody else know the series; or possibly an answer I don't know?  (Small technical note:  They numbered the pages in the individual chapters separately on the book I'm thinking of; but the story title was the same throughout the book.)

All Flash had some book-length stories as I recall.

So did early issues of Green Lantern; but they were when the books were published by AA.  (At least, as far as I know.  Other than references, I've got one issue of All-Flash and none of Green Lantern.  Like I said, there may be an answer I don't know as well as the one I'm thinking of.)

[OtherEric]

Just to qualify my question even further:  Substitute "non-team book" for "all-star"; Leading isn't the book I'm thinking of either.

[Abishai100]

I like your list Watney, especially since most people often overlook the appeal of Hawkman, since he has not been hyped as much as the other non-Superman/Batman characters such as Arrow and Flash.

Aquaman was not a timeless titan, but I think he belongs right up there with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Green Arrow (my personal top 5 DC heroes), since Aquaman is the best 'territorial-avatar' (rather than a simple power or element character) and his nemesis Black Manta (a vengeful underwater ghoulish diviner of dangerous gadgets/vehicles is arguably the penultimate 'Devil' (arguably more 'eerie' than even Lex Luthor, the Riddler, or even Marvel's titanic bad-dudes (e.g., Doctor Doom and Red Skull).

Aquaman typifies the divine majesty of the waters/oceans, while Black Manta is the iconic 'mad scientist,' so this makes of terrific comic book art.

I would add to your list DC Comics' superhero Plastic Man who has not shined by any means compared to the other 'giants' mentioned on your list but is still arguably a terrific power/element oriented all-around 'interesting' character as well as boasting intriguing nemeses.

I'd like to see conversations highlighting the intrigue of elements between Aquaman and Plastic Man --- such variation dialogue would help film-makers today tackling storytelling in a cinematic environment that is honestly completely overflooded with intensive comic book paraphrenalia.


====

AQUAMAN: We should combine forces, since I control water and you have 'plastic-magic.'
PLASTIC MAN: Yes, teamwork is necessary to deal with the ominous 'Legion of Doom.'
AQUAMAN: Water is nature, but plastic is magic!
PLASTIC MAN: Your adversary Black Manta is a tech-wielding 'mad scientist.'
AQUAMAN: Yes, the new sciences requires us heroes to 'adapt.'
PLASTIC MAN: Then I will help you with plastic, and you must bless me with waters.
AQUAMAN: You have my triton/power, and I eagerly await your 'plastic-magic.'
PLASTIC MAN: We make for good 'unity.'

====

[paw broon]

You know, Abishai, I can't be bothered with film versions of superheroes. Althiugh I have to admit to enjoying some scenes in Cap and Iron Man/Avengers films, but overall I'd rather be out in my garden   But to deal with the heroes you mention, Hawkman is a superior example, or was, before he became mean and moody, unshaven and a not very nice, hard, piece of work.  The S.A. version drawn by Joe Kubert got me hooked and, of course, in his own title, he was well treated artwise by Murphy Anderson. Then I found the G.A. version and loved it, still do, but those Kubert issues are just so good.
As for Plastic Man, he's a fun character and the humour and mad invention in the G.A. version by Jack Cole put him up there with the greats.
I'm not a fan of underwater heroes and can't be a***d with the Inhumans guy, or Seadragon etc. but Aquaman when done by Jim Aparo is well worth a read.
What I really dislike are the cartoon versions of these blokes.  Fortunately, I don't have to watch them.

[narfstar]

It is hard to keep a humor character fresh. Plasticman in the regular DC universe was just plain horrible and was a major part of my giving up the JLA at the time. He belongs in his own Elseworld. Aquaman is cool in his own adventures or when others come to him. I don't think he belong in the JLA either.

[John Kerry]

Couple of points to add to this discussion. First for the record Flash, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman were cover-featured on Comics Cavalcade. Secondly it should be remembered that The Spectre got a three-issue tryout in Showcase and then his own (short-lived) series in the Silver Age. He's also the only JSAer who appeared alongside Batman in The Brave and the Bold, so someone must have thought highly of him.