Comic Book Plus Forum
All And Everything => General Discussion => Topic started by: Aqualad1 on March 12, 2010, 06:02:05 AM
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Hello, I was just wondering if anyone has read "The Ten Cent Plague" (recently published). A wonderful narrative reviewing the history of comics (and it's Publishers) through the back drop of the child delenquency scare culminating with EC's Bill Gaines appearance before Congress and the formation of the Comics Code. I thought it was a wonderful read and rather insightful in regards to why some of the early GA stuff was so incredibly bizzare, unreadable and for the there times shocking and distasteful to so many adults of the time. This is probaly why I love the medium so much.... ;D
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No haven't read it but it sounds like something I would enjoy. I'll look for it.
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If you can not find the time to read it. It is on audio book. I have it but have not had time to listen to it yet. I gave my mp3 player away and have not gotten another. Maybe that is a good excuse to get one since I got my income tax rebate ;D
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You got a rebate? Lucky!
I was so against audio books at first but I've come to like them. It helps pass the time on my hour long ride to work.
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There's newsreel footage existing of Bill Gaines (God rest his soul!) at the hearings about child delenquency scare.
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Just for fun, if anyone is not familar with what Bill Gaines looks like you might enjoy this clip from the TV show: To Tell The Truth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSoxQNJjkFs&feature=PlayList&p=D8C487A337EA9BBE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7
Here's a couple of good stories also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3OtmcEZ_dU&feature=PlayList&p=D8C487A337EA9BBE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1
EC/Gaines story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYx-JCAc-ko&feature=PlayList&p=D8C487A337EA9BBE&index=0&playnext=1
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I've read it and found it pretty thorough. Some have commented before that they felt the book was somewhat slanted, or less accurate than it could have been. The book lists a great number of people who purportedly lost work or were "blackballed" from comics due to the code, and I have found quite a few questionable entries there.
As I read, it struck me that the author had begun with a search on "comic books" or something similar in newspaers and magazines from the period, and then chronologically set about investigating the articles. I would think that most of the news and magazine articles about comics appearing in the 1940's and 1950's were about some controversial aspect of the industry and its offerings.
But this reminds me of something: Does anyone know if Seduction of the Innocent is in public domain yet? If so, I can post one. If not, who has the rights and such?
--Dave
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My main problem with the book is that he starts off with an emotional, powerful encounter with Janice Valleau (I think, I read it on the plane over to Paris and left it there...) and hinted strongly that it was a critical part of the story. He never really wrapped it up and, though the rest of the book was fascinating, it was ultimately unsatisfying because of the unresolved nature of her story (IMHO).
If you've seen Hadju's other books, you might cut him a little more slack on how he went about creating the book. He's a big fan/historian of mid-20th century American popular culture.
What did you find inaccurate about it? Usually when I read a "history" of comics of any kind, I get pretty pissed at the sloppy historical research that I encounter. (I'm currently forcing myself through "The Amazing Miss Highstreet" because of the bad history therein.) I don't recall being too unnerved in The Ten Cent Plague, so I'm curious as to what rankled you. The list of artists who "lost work" was, indeed, a bit slanted, as was the attribution of the cause to the comics code.
The only other books that got the History better were Gerald Jones "Men of Tomorrow" and Michael Chabon's "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay."
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I lent the book out, so I don't have the reference, but I seem to remember names listed as being out of comics as of a certain date when I was pretty sure that the individuals mentioned had still done some work. It's not a big deal; some folks I've talked to were much more critical than I. I thought it was a good read.
I have read Kavalier and Clay and thought that to be loaded with atmosphere. I'm know that there are a lot of direct references to historical figures, but I can't seem to keep who's who straight in my head. At least I know that's not "old guy" stuff as I've never been able to keep the golden age movers and shakers straight.
--Dave
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Here is a link to SOI. John C has had some real life going on so when he comes back around maybe he can see if it is PD. Or if someone has learned to navigate the status issue and let us know if it was renewed it would be appreciated. I think Janus is looking for another PD checker to upgrade to VIP if anyone is interested.
If the book is not pd then I will remove the link if it is we can put it onsite
http://rapidshare.com/files/247734862/Seduction_Of_The_Innocent__Rinehart___1954___Fredric_Wertham_M.D.___Darkseid-DCP_.cbr
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They've been trying to get a "Kavalier and Clay" Movie off the ground for years!
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I just think the title is funny. "Seduction of The Innocent". Woooooo, scary! It makes it sound like it's about child molesters or drugs. Nope, it's comics.
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I just think the title is funny. "Seduction of The Innocent". Woooooo, scary! It makes it sound like it's about child molesters or drugs. Nope, it's comics.
If the intent hadn't been exactly that, to scare parents and educators, it might have been funny. As it was, for all intents and purposes, its intent WAS to compare comic publishers to child molesters and drug dealers. Hardly a laughing matter.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I apologize if it sounded like I was making light of those things. Not at all. I just meant that to me, comic books are not dangerous and it's hard for me to believe how serious they were taken at the time. Judging from the seriousness of the title and the investigations that were involved, I guess people were truly concerned about the impact the comics had.
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People seem to always be looking for something or someone else to blame for their failings and inabilities, Astaldo. Taking personal responsibility for their own life seems to be too much to ask. And people like Wertham, good intentioned or not, always seem to be waiting in the wings to make some money by telling them that it's not their fault.
Sigh...
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I'm not old, only 39 but in my time I've seen computer games, music, and role playing games held responsible for people doing bad things. I've been exposed to all of them and never had a desire to commit any crime whatsoever. My parents were strict - my mom with the proverbial "wooden spoon" and my dad with the belt. Today, I could commit a crime and say it was all those things that made me do it and my parents would be arrested for child abuse. None of my fault. Sort of like donating to this site because I didn't notice the big banner telling me not to. Not my fault because you didn't remove the link.
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I really enjoyed the book. It was neat to see the book burnings through the eyes of the children that participated and to see the famous congressional hearings on comics placed in a larger context of the actions taken by municipalities and states across the country. I also enjoyed the focus on EC an exploration of Gaines' relationship to Feldstein and also to hear the background on his fiesty state of mind coupled with drug abuse before his disastrous appearance before the hearings. Hadju did a great job of describing the unique comic culture of the day and telling the story of golden age comics in an exciting manner. I'd guess that a lor of this material is old hand for the experts around here, but I found it great fun, and I learned a thing or two as well. I recommend it especially to those that have never heard the story of the rise and fall of golden age comics...
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Well, let's face it...EC and a number of other publishers back then *were* too offensive by the standards of the time. (By my standards too, fwtw.) If Bill Gates had used a little common sense and *not* done that ending to "Foul Play", or if, perhaps, Jack Cole hadn't shown somebody about to get a needle in the eye (dream or not, that was pretty bad), Wertham would have had a lot further to go for his examples. Even horror movies of the time didn't go as far as some of the worst horror comics. I don't agree with a number of things Wertham brought out in his book (Batman and Robin, homosexuals? Uh...no.), but if Gaines and company hadn't been pushing the outside of the envelope, they wouldn't have broken through. My 2 cents plain.
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Vista was bad, but I wouldn't equate it with Bill Gates doing some of those horrible things to me...
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If Bill Gates had used a little common sense ...
Then we might not have HAD Vista. Great Freudian Slip, DM.
Peace, (and hoping that Windows 7 in an improvement - should I dare to upgrade) Jim (|:{>
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I haven't read Hajdu's book, but from all these posts I'm almost inclined to do so... almost. At least to read over the events of the late 40s period, most of the stuff regarding the Senate Hearings and EC in the 50s I'm already all too aware of, although I didn't hear of that bit about Gaines being "hyped." Somewhat of a revelation, but understandable. Personally, I've had my full of the whole mess just by reading through the transcripts of the 54 hearings themselves... turns my stomach really, just one evil, destructive, conspiracy theory after another.
Well, let's face it...EC and a number of other publishers back then *were* too offensive by the standards of the time. ...
What standards?
... Wertham...
Spent too much time reading comic books and not enough time planning his retirement.
It's obvious from his "research work" at the time that he needed to do a little less of the former and a little more of the latter... but then perhaps with the publication of SOTI he was doing just that (planning his retirement that is). ;)
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If Bill Gates had used a little common sense ...
Then we might not have HAD Vista. Great Freudian Slip, DM.
Peace, (and hoping that Windows 7 in an improvement - should I dare to upgrade) Jim (|:{>
I've been using Windows 7 for a couple of weeks now and so far so good. Lots of little things that make it nice. I don't feel as comfortable getting "under the hood" as I did with XP but that's just because it was based on 98 which was based on 95 and I had them for years.
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Spent too much time reading comic books and not enough time planning his retirement.
It's obvious from his "research work" at the time that he needed to do a little less of the former and a little more of the latter... but then perhaps with the publication of SOTI he was doing just that (planning his retirement that is). ;)
You know, have actually personally corresponded with Wertham in the '70s (when I believe he was planning a book on fanzines), I have to say that I believe he was sincere in his beliefs - totally WRONG, but I never found him to be an over-the-top, actively-fervent HATER of comic books. Of course, that doesn't make his activities and published screeds any more tolerable, but I do believe that it's wrong to attribute a demonic, intentionally destructive slant to them. I think he was really trying to save children from a perceived evil. Why he couldn't see the errors of his "science" is something I never confronted him with (it wasn't a deeply personal, prolonged correspondence), but they sure seem obvious in retrospective.
Peace, Jim (|:{> (and watch out for those large pygmy elephants...)
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If you still have the letters they are part of comic history. They could be posted here or perhaps Roy would want to include them in AE
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Should I cut him some more slack because he wore a white coat? Those are the ones you have to be skeptical about the most, for they are the ones that can do the most damage. ;D
Well actually, I don't want to come off as a Wertham basher. In fact, in many ways I share JVJ's sentiments... I've actually expressed my opinion on him in blog reply entries here (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/11/26/comic-book-legends-revealed-235/), if anyone is interested (I really don't care to repeat myself here).
But just like John C couldn't forgive Gaines, (although I've tried and actually have) I don't see why I should sympathize with (or forgive) Wertham... he never seemed to admit he was wrong either. And if I may be candid, the only reason why he probably looked favorably upon the fanzine phenomena was that he must have thought it a form of "group therapy." A collective way in which the "victims" could heal themselves... and in a way it is when you think about it... but not for the reasons of which Wertham would probably propose (that is, therapy from exposure to comic books).
With that said, there was/is some clearly inappropriate material in some of the pre-code comics (looooong before EC came on the scene)... especially when considering that that material might be viewed by very young children. As I've learned more and more about the history of the medium it's become obvious to me that comic books were never really intended for children, that is an urban legend of monumental proportions... they were indeed a replacement/supplement for the flagging pulps IMO... and for that reason it was inevitable that some form of comics code would eventually come to pass. It just happened to come to pass when EC and their "new trends" were riding high... but problems with regard to content in comic books were building for years. Anyone remember Victor Fox?... Nope.
As I like to say... comics are made by adults for the child, the child in all of us adults.
EDIT: But I should preface that "clearly inappropriate" statement with "from the perspective of an adult," IMO there is a difference between what a jaded forty year old "sees" in a work, than what a five year old does... at least I hope so. ;)
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I wasn't suggesting cutting him any slack, DL, just observing that some of the motives attributed to him might not actually have been there.
And I was wrong, he DID write a book in 1973, "The World of Fanzines" subtitled "A Special Form of Communication" which I finally located on my shelves (I have about 2000 feet of shelving in my house). Or course I haven't read it since '73. I'll put it on my reading stack and give a report. Or you can get your own copy at
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0809306190/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0809306190/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used)
Peace, Jim (|:{:>
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Just a thought, but looking at those hearing transcripts, in the end I think the senators were more concerned with the question of "tie-in" sales and whether organized crime had taken control of magazine distribution in general... with the obvious implications that that would have on newspaper and news magazine dissemination... than with comic book violence, that quickly became a side issue. But that's just my opinion.
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Turns out (as I've just finished my taxes and begun to read "The World of Fanzines), DL, that Wertham actually respected Fanzines quite a bit. Here are a couple of quotes from his introduction:
"I have been asked - and asked myself - where my empathy with such an unusual and unrecognized subject comes from. Having seen, in my years in psychiatry, so much of the general flaws in our human relations, I was attracted to something that was so positive and was not acknowledged as such. I felt that it was essentially unpolluted by the greed, the arrogance, and the hypocrisy that has invaded so much of our intellectual life."
"Their claim to attention, certainly not a small one, lies in the fact that they belong to the American cultural environment, that they exist and continue to exist as genuine human voices outside of all mass manipulation. These unheralded voices, not loud and strident, not ponderous, but cheerful, deserve to be heard."
So far, 55 pages into it, he's extremely respectful (if a little scattered and unfocused) in his approach. I'll keep you posted.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Interesting...
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Humm... "unpolluted by the greed, the arrogance, and the hypocrisy that has invaded so much of our intellectual life." Coming from him perhaps I should suppose he felt this was the case with the comics industry... too much cynicism (among other things) being bandied about in what they published.
Btw JVJ... when I speak of Wertham possibly considering fanzines as a form of "group therapy," I should point out that I'm really thinking of the first fanzines as they were in the fifties. Not the modern incarnations that we have today... or that were around by the early 70s for that matter. :)
Well, so far so good... although IMO he already seems to be over intellectualizing what were in many instances originally just fun outlets created by fans, for fans, to share in their thoughts, mutual appreciation and enjoyment of the works they found so fabulously entertaining. One must wonder (well at least I do) if this guy understood the concept of fun... was he ever happy? ???