Comic Book Plus Forum
Comic And Book Related => Comic Book Plus Reading Group => Topic started by: The Australian Panther on May 17, 2022, 12:14:44 AM
-
Some very nice Dell Western Eye Candy for you
Bat Masterson 2
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=38913
Four Colour 0675 - Steve Donovan Western Marshall
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=34869
Enjoy
-
I love Dell westerns and the Bat Masterson is a good read, especially the first story. There are some atmospheric panels - see our page 7, and well laid out panels that let the eye follow the action effortlessly, imo. The 2nd Masterson story. Again some nice panels, good action. All very pleasing. Thank you.
Steve Donovan. Despite lovely art and, at times, good action, the story didn't appeal to me as much. The characters seemed to be one thing then another. Perhaps I prefer them good or bad.
I wish certain modern day comic book artists would take a look at this quality of book and have a word with themselves.
-
I can see Reading Group #271 on my screen. So, there should be no problem with members finding it to post. In looking at these 2 Dell Western comics, I've enjoyed the high-quality of the artwork. I'm going to enjoy reading these stories.
-
The more I think about it, I see a comparison with the ranchers in Steve Donovan and the men Burt Lancaster goes after in Lawman. But I need to watch Lawman again, just in case I'm havering ::)0
-
Woohoo! A western! I look forward to this.
-
Raymond Kinstler later specialized as a Portrait painter.
On page #9 of 0675 - Steve Donovan Western Marshall - panel #3 - I am sure he has used RANDOLPH SCOTT as his model for Steve Donovan. This is the only full-frontal image of Donovan in the book, but It looks to me as if he kept to Scott as his template through the rest of the story.
-
Bat Masterson #2
The Lead Souvenir - Not one of Gaylord's better stories, feels like he wrote it in a hurry, hero comes across wounded crook, performs back surgery in a non-sterile environment, crook regains use of his legs and doesn't die of infection and warns hero of criminal plot, yeahhhhhh...
Animal Friend - One page really isn't enough room to build the friendship of man and animal to a believable point.
The Red Hot Ringer - Sounds like the name of a Green Lantern knock-off. ;) Kind of a fun 'odd detective' type story.
The Vanishing Gandy Dancers - A much better & entertaining story than the first one. :)
Roaring Towns/Landmarks of the Old West - Interesting factoids.
-
Two DELL westerns. Great way to spend an afternoon.
I like the way the STEVEN DONOVAN issue goes literally to the LAST PAGE to get the work done. And yeah, Australian Panther, he DOES look like Randolph Scoot. The art work itself reminds me of the drawings they used to have on the front plates of adventure books from the turn of the last century.
BAT MASTERSON is always fun and they did a good job of drawing Gene Berry through the run. Sometimes, and this is one of them, they got themselves a sort of Alex Toth vibe going with the artwork.
And DELL COMICS ARE GOOD COMICS still makes me laugh.
-
Bat Masterson #2
The Lead Souvenir - Not one of Gaylord's better stories, feels like he wrote it in a hurry, hero comes across wounded crook, performs back surgery in a non-sterile environment, crook regains use of his legs and doesn't die of infection and warns hero of criminal plot, yeahhhhhh...
Odds of surviving surgery under such conditions were not good but I've read a few manuals written by post Civil War army surgeons that reveal just how hardy humans could be back then. There were few if any antibiotics or disinfectants but there were also fewer types of germs to deal with once you left the cities especially in the arid conditions of the south west. The same was noted by British army surgeons during the Boer Wars.
If a lead bullet was in contact with living bones "lead poisoning" was a death sentence unless the bullet was removed quickly. If the bullet were buried in flesh only it was soon covered by a encapsulating scar tissue that isolated the toxic metal from the blood stream. People often survived many decades with bullets buried in the flesh.
Solid Lead itself is only mildly toxic but in contact with bone very toxic compounds form.
PS
A common method of reducing risks of gangreene was to place maggots in the wound before bandaging. Maggots ate only the dead purescent flesh leaving living flesh untouched.
-
Four Color #675
Okay story and art.
I assume the shooting the guns out of hands rather than shooting to kill was a Steve Donovan show thing the writer duplicated. Hmmm... all those bullets flying around and the only thing killed in the story was a dog??? Okayyyyyyyy...
-
Thanks, Captain Audio.
I hadn't heard about the problems of lead against bone. That's interesting. As was the info about disease and arid conditions.
I did wonder if Bat had poured alcohol over the wound to sterilize it, but that's all I knew about older field surgery.
-
all those bullets flying around and the only thing killed in the story was a dog???
That sort of thing is even more ridiculous when they do it in movies and TV shows and not just on the printed page.
Currently in movies, they have uppped the gunpower but they still don't hit anything unless the script requires it. So half a dozen people can be seen having a gun fight with semi-automatic submachinegun weapons, but none of the 'stars' ever get hit. NCIS Los Angeles - back when I used to watch it - depicted this in every episode.
-
Bat Masterson #2
As media adaptations go, this book is a fine example of what Dell did best.
The artwork is top notch from beginning to end. Great figure drawing, characterization, and action. Well thought-out backgrounds. Excellent use of lighting and shadows. I was surprised to see the pencil work credited to Bob Forgione. I'd thought it was all Jerry Robinson. Fact is, though I've seen lots of Forgione artwork (usually inked by Jack Abel) I've never been able to get a handle on his style. The figures and faces (especially the long noses) look like Robinson to me. At any rate the art serves the story well, with few shortcuts and strong likenesses.
The stories are pretty good. I preferred the second one because DuBois put some effort into humanizing the supporting characters. One quibble: we're told Bat speaks the Cheyenne language, so presumably whenever the Chief talks to Bat he converses in Cheyenne. So why does he still leave out his definite articles and mix up his tenses? Ugh.
The first story isn't bad. Hardy humans or not, I found it difficult to accept that Bat digs a bullet out of a man along the trail, and the fellow is immediately able to resume his previous life. I'd think he'd need some time to recuperate from a spinal cord injury.
If I have one complaint with Dell authors it's that their stories could be too efficient. Their plotting was generally good. But unlike many comics writers who loaded their panels with dialogue, Dell authors often provided just enough dialogue to move the story. When overdone this made dialogue sound telegraphic. Paul S. Newman did this most often, especially when he began writing for Gold Key. I'm sure GK must have had a strict words-per-balloon limit in the early days. Some stories had barely half-a-dozen words in any given balloon. Perhaps this was part of their attempt to make their comics more storybook-like, which included square balloons and borderless panels separated by colored bars. In the case of this particular comic, though, I feel DuBois hit the right balance between words and pictures.
Steve Donovan, Western Marshal
I vaguely remember seeing an episode of this series when I was very young. IMDB tells me it was an independent syndicated series that ran a single season. Douglas Kennedy (Donovan) played supporting roles and an occasional B-movie lead. Rusty was played by Eddy Waller, who acted in countless Republic Westerns and was Rocky Lane's regular sidekick.
I liked it when Dell ran full-issue stories. 34 big, roomy pages, with the extra treat of seeing how the artist looked in black-and-white (even back then I was fascinated with b&w pen-and-ink work). It did mean that you were shafted if you got a coverless copy. The writers played the story right out to the last page. That said, authors tended to use the extra space for more action rather than subplots or characterization. This is why adaptations of (good) feature films with more complex plots were often the best reads.
The story here is okay, though bad guy Bent's change of heart is way too sudden. His impassioned speech on the next-to-last page is hard to swallow given how he'd behaved up till then. I would have preferred either (a) he admits grudgingly that Donovan has beat him and agrees to toe the line or (b) some earlier incident starts him rethinking his position and the fallout from the big stampede finally makes him see the light.
Anyone who endures my comments knows that I'm a huge fan of Everett Raymond Kinstler. Seeing these two comics together forced me to recognize his tendency to cop out and take shortcuts. If the script calls for too many characters he'll either pull the camera wayyyyy back so everyone is a doodle, or push it so far in that he only has to draw a hand or a head. He frequently cheats his backgrounds. He just draws so darned good that most of the time nobody notices.
On our page 21 (the big saloon fire) his laziness torpedoes the story. In panel one we do see the burning building. But other than a pair of foreground legs, there's no sign of the crowd that is forming, the people Donovan commands to "form a bucket brigade." That's the last time we see the saloon. Donovan tells someone to "bring up those other water barrels" but all we see are two barrels and the background silhouette of a few cowboys who seem to be standing around. Panel three is beautifully rendered. It helps the look of the page. In the final two panels we mostly see only vague smoky shapes. I've no idea what the blobby grey thing in the last panel is. Surely we should see some of the ruins of the building.
Let me say that despite all this we get more story than half a dozen ordinary Western comics and--again--Kinstler draws so darned well!
By the way, the guns shot out of hands are prime "Pledge to Parents" material. People did get shot, especially in movie adaptations, but on the whole 1950s Dell kept the gun violence limited. Plenty of people got beat up, though.
-
Bat Masterson
The art's agreeable, and tidy. But I have trouble swallowing the plot. First Bat comes across a wounded outlaw who complains his legs aren't working. So the first thing Bat does is turn him over, the way you do with spinal injuries, and attempt surgery without a hint of anaesthetic. Then he pries the bullet out of the guy's spine and lo and behold he's up on his feet again? ???
Later, when Bat visits the Marshal, he's accused of being a friend of crooks, though unless the lawman is aware of the first part of the story, for which there's no obvious evidence, then there's no reason for his ire.
And though I can understand that the gang could've stolen the spare cane, they'd need to have also stolen another one of Bat's suit and hat ensembles, and found a gang member who'd pass as a doppelganger. When the Marshal comes upon the two Bats fighting, he chooses to shoot the one who's losing, which seems fairly arbitrary to me.
The four-pager with the Blacksmith hangs together a bit better, and is mildly amusing even though you can soon see where it's going.
Then we're back to Bat and his Gandy Dancers. The name refers to the missing railroad workers, though there's nothing to tell you that. Otherwise the plot seems a little more straightforward than the first story, though I'm uncertain how easy it would be to drug and kidnap fifty workmen, and keep it quiet. I'm also confused by the constant using of the William Barclay Masterson handle when it's the Bartholomew before that which gives him the nickname Bat.
Steve Donovan
I enjoyed this a little more perhaps because it was a full-issue story, though I did have trouble keeping up with whose cattle were whose. Minor inconsistencies included the first Sheriff we meet describing Spur as a town with no law, though it does have a Sheriff, just not a very heroic one. But miraculously, having once been shot, the next time we meet him, he's been promoted to Marshal. :o Bent seems to acquiesce a little too easily at the end, and five'll get you ten that the minute Donovan moves on, the cattlemen forget about how well they've been "trained" and start shooting up the lawman again. Nice Kinstler art but nowhere near as nice as it could've been.
I have to say, I'm not a massive fan of Westerns in any form, except for Arizona Raines, I grew up reading him in UK reprints. It was an interesting change of pace, but I don't think I'll be reading any more for a good long while. ;)
All the best
K1ngcat
-
I'm looking for a guest host to choose the book or books to review for next fortnight. Please PM me and also Australian Panther if you want to be the chooser next Monday, May 30th.
-
I've put correspondence in place, regarding this. Taken care of.
-
x
Steve Donovan
I enjoyed this a little more perhaps because it was a full-issue story, though I did have trouble keeping up with whose cattle were whose. Minor inconsistencies included the first Sheriff we meet describing Spur as a town with no law, though it does have a Sheriff, just not a very heroic one. But miraculously, having once been shot, the next time we meet him, he's been promoted to Marshal. :o Bent seems to acquiesce a little too easily at the end, and five'll get you ten that the minute Donovan moves on, the cattlemen forget about how well they've been "trained" and start shooting up the lawman again. Nice Kinstler art but nowhere near as nice as it could've been.
All the best
K1ngcat
I think there was always a bit of ambiguity regarding the jurisdiction of law enforcement officers in
"The Old West" of The USA. The Western films generally never really dealt with the differences between Sheriffs and Marshals, other than The Marshal sometimes having more authority than a Sheriff, and when they cooperated on a law enforcement operation, The Marshal would be in charge. But, a Sheriff cannot be "promoted" to the office of Marshal. In today's USA, The Sheriff is the highest law enforcement officer in a county, which is a division of a state. He is an employee of a state government. There were never Sheriffs that were limited to being the chief law enforcement officers of individual towns. Incorporated cities have police forces. The chief of police was the chief law enforcement officer in a city government. In USA, before all parts of The Old West was settled with population enough to gain statehood, the areas that were not inside states were official "territories". Those territories had divisions, which each had Marshals assigned by The US Federal Government. They were law enforcement officers employed directly by The US Federal Government, as part of its Justice/Law Enforcement Branch. Inside states, Cities had their own city police forces, which were employees of the city government. Each state had a state police force to handle enforcement of state laws. Counties had County sheriff's Department that handled enforcement of county laws, and local laws when towns and villages were too small to incorporate as cities, or when incorporated cities were too small to afford to operate their own police force, and so, contacted those tasks to their county's Sheriff Department. When a Federal Marshal was involved in The Old West (19th Century), it was in a situation inside a state, where Federal laws were being broken, or suspected of being broken, or where Federally-owned Land was involved, or interstate commerce or an interstate dispute was involved. In the territories, Federal Marshals were assigned to geographic divisions of them. Federal Marshals often cooperated with Sheriff's Departments in counties inside states, as well as with state police, and even with city police, when US Federal laws were being broken, especially by organised crime, and The Federal officers in that area were too few to handle operations against them, and so, the Federal Marshal commandeered the aid of state and local law enforcement agencies. A Federal Marshal could only give orders to a County Sheriff when a US Federal matter was involved. He could not get involved in a Sheriff's duties if that were only a local matter, with no Federal law or interest involved.
So, the Sheriff in the story, who later became a Federal Marshal, would have had to quit his job with his County government, cutting short his county service and pension credit, and join The US Federal Government's system. It is possible that the US Federal Marshal in that state's area covering that county was killed, or retired. And The US Government had no immediate replacement for that crucial position, and that Sheriff had been quite effective in joint Federal and County operations, and The Feds had a high opinion of him, and offered him the job, but they probably would have also had to offer some kind of bonus to compensate for him leaving the county's service before full pension tenure was reached.
-
I think there was always a bit of ambiguity regarding the jurisdiction of law enforcement officers in
"The Old West" of The USA. The Western films generally never really dealt with the differences between Sheriffs and Marshals, other than The Marshal sometimes having more authority than a Sheriff, and when they cooperated on a law enforcement operation, The Marshal would be in charge. But, a Sheriff cannot be "promoted" to the office of Marshal.
So, the Sheriff in the story, who later became a Federal Marshal, would have had to quit his job with his County government, cutting short his county service and pension credit, and join The US Federal Government's system. It is possible that the US Federal Marshal in that state's area covering that county was killed, or retired. And The US Government had no immediate replacement for that crucial position, and that Sheriff had been quite effective in joint Federal and County operations, and The Feds had a high opinion of him, and offered him the job, but they probably would have also had to offer some kind of bonus to compensate for him leaving the county's service before full pension tenure was reached.
Wow! Thanks for all that info, Robb, I was completely ignorant of the differences. Until now, anyway! I thought it more likely that the writer just forgot what the character had been described as first time round?
Appreciate your input,
All the best
K1ngcat
-
I think there was always a bit of ambiguity regarding the jurisdiction of law enforcement officers in
"The Old West" of The USA. The Western films generally never really dealt with the differences between Sheriffs and Marshals, other than The Marshal sometimes having more authority than a Sheriff, and when they cooperated on a law enforcement operation, The Marshal would be in charge. But, a Sheriff cannot be "promoted" to the office of Marshal.
So, the Sheriff in the story, who later became a Federal Marshal, would have had to quit his job with his County government, cutting short his county service and pension credit, and join The US Federal Government's system. It is possible that the US Federal Marshal in that state's area covering that county was killed, or retired. And The US Government had no immediate replacement for that crucial position, and that Sheriff had been quite effective in joint Federal and County operations, and The Feds had a high opinion of him, and offered him the job, but they probably would have also had to offer some kind of bonus to compensate for him leaving the county's service before full pension tenure was reached.
Wow! Thanks for all that info, Robb, I was completely ignorant of the differences. Until now, anyway! I thought it more likely that the writer just forgot what the character had been described as first time round?
Appreciate your input,
All the best
K1ngcat
Most Europeans I know don't understand that because USA and Canada are so very big, they have one extra level of government, more than most European countries. They have (1)local (City or unincorporated Town or Village, (2) County or Parrish, (3) State or Province, (4) Federation of States or Provinces (National Government). In The Netherlands, we have (1) Local: City, Town or Village, (2) Province, (3) National Government. The nation and provinces are so small, that smaller divisions (counties) bigger than local, are not needed. Same in Denmark. Germany has States with governments, but no smaller divisions bigger than local, that need separate governmental systems.
The U.K., on the other hand, has Nations (England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, and counties. But, I think the county governments in The UK are analogous to US states and Canadian provinces. So, it is my understanding that The UK ends up having the same number of governmental systems as European countries as their "national" governmental level of England/Scotland/Wales/N.Ireland are somewhat interwoven into The UK Government, despite having their own Parliaments. Although The European Government was another level superimposed above those, while The UK was a member of that organisation, but it wasn't really a FULL fourth level, because its powers and authority only had a partial (fairly minor effect) on the daily lives of the daily lives of its member countries' citizens, especially given that many of its dictates provided for voluntary adherance (i.e its monetary system).
I'd like to learn from one of you lifetime, native Brits, whether or not your "Counties" are analogous to our Canadian Provinces and US States, and whether or not The Dukedoms (Northumbria, Yorkshire, Devon, Cornwall, etc.) used to be the equivalent level of Canadian Provinces and US States. And I'd also like to know exactly how the national parliaments of The UK member nations (or states, if you prefer), affect the levels of government in The UK. Do they act as completely independent full levels of government, with large contingents of employees? Or do they just act as small adjuncts to The UK "National" Government?
I'm a bit embarrassed that having spent portions of about 25 years in England(mostly in Lancashire, but a bit in London), with a bit in Scotland, as well, (the former probably adding up to 4-5 years), I've never had much dealings with government agencies. Whereas, especially in The Netherlands(almost 50 years), but also in Denmark and Germany, too(about 30 and 35 years), as a resident, I have dealt with many aspects of all 3 levels of government. And, of course, I've lived quite a few years in Canada and USA.
-
Australia.
Australia is a federation of states.Known as the Commonwealth of Australia.
6 states - Western Australia, South Australia, Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland had all achieved self-government previously. It took a great deal of diplomacy and maneuvering to get them to Federate. But there were several areas which at time of federation had not achieved statehood. They were known as Territories and came directly under the rule of the Federal Government. Chief among these is the Northern Territory, and the Australian Antarctic Territory - about at least one third of Antarctica. It's not usually appreciated that Australia is physically the size of the United States and if we include the Antarctic territory, probably somewhat bigger.
All states collect taxes, each state has its own police force and education system and road rules. Post Office, Money policy, Banking, Military and Foreign Affairs are Federal. Federal Government collects taxes in many areas and after taking its allotments, allocates the rest back to the states.
Local Government is known as shire government. The head of the shire is the Mayor of the biggest city in the shire. The capital cities have their own government and the mayors are known as 'Lord Mayor'. Police are all state organizations - there are no locally elected police forces.
The office of Sherrif in Australia is quite different. In NSW,
The responsibilities of the Sheriff today are to:
administer the Sheriff?s Office;
serve Summonses and enforcement orders, warrants and orders of the Supreme, District and Local Courts, and other tribunals and courts in New South Wales;
serve and enforce orders within the borders of New South Wales on behalf of Commonwealth courts, including the High Court, Federal Court and the Family Court of Australia;
arrange security for the Supreme Court, District Court, certain Local Courts and a range of tribunals; and
administer the jury system in New South Wales.
While Australia was, after the discovery of Gold, in many ways just as wild as the US West, there was never the predominance of guns that occurred there.
That happened in the US because the chronological period of 'opening up the west' was post civil war and many men with military experience kept their arms and headed west.
In fact Americans headed for Australia for gold and Australians headed for California in the same period.
One of the worst gangs on the US West Coast was Australian. Believe it or don't!
Amazing where these Reading Group discussions end up!
Cheers!
-
Australia.
Australia is a federation of states.Known as the Commonwealth of Australia.
6 states - Western Australia, South Australia, Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland had all achieved self-government previously. It took a great deal of diplomacy and maneuvering to get them to Federate. But there were several areas which at time of federation had not achieved statehood. They were known as Territories and came directly under the rule of the Federal Government. Chief among these is the Northern Territory, and the Australian Antarctic Territory - about at least one third of Antarctica. It's not usually appreciated that Australia is physically the size of the United States and if we include the Antarctic territory, probably somewhat bigger.
All states collect taxes, each state has its own police force and education system and road rules. Post Office, Money policy, Banking, Military and Foreign Affairs are Federal. Federal Government collects taxes in many areas and after taking its allotments, allocates the rest back to the states.
Local Government is known as shire government. The head of the shire is the Mayor of the biggest city in the shire. The capital cities have their own government and the mayors are known as 'Lord Mayor'. Police are all state organizations - there are no locally elected police forces.
The office of Sherrif in Australia is quite different. In NSW,
The responsibilities of the Sheriff today are to:
administer the Sheriff?s Office;
serve Summonses and enforcement orders, warrants and orders of the Supreme, District and Local Courts, and other tribunals and courts in New South Wales;
serve and enforce orders within the borders of New South Wales on behalf of Commonwealth courts, including the High Court, Federal Court and the Family Court of Australia;
arrange security for the Supreme Court, District Court, certain Local Courts and a range of tribunals; and
administer the jury system in New South Wales.
Interesting to learn all this about Australia.
-
[b]Bat Masterson 2[/b] Written by Gaylord DuBois, pencils by Bob Forgione, inks by Jerry Robinson
(1) The Lead Souvenir
This 13 page story, whose scope and plot have the feel of the half-hour US TV series, which ran from 1958 through 1961. I checked IMdb to see if this story was one of the TV show's episodes, but it doesn't seem to have been. I agree that the young bank robber gang member having been wounded, with no feeling in his legs, having the bullet removed from his back , and then being instantly able to walk and ride a horse is a little much to believe. The artwork is quite good, penciling of background and figures, inking, and staging of the panels (as they were for all the stories in this book).
(2) The Red Hot Ringer featuring Softspoken Smith
Nice little 4-page story about a sharp local, who foils a bank robber. The story is very well-staged, and very efficiently plotted, with perfect pacing. The artwork is excellent.
(3) The Vanishing Gandy Dancers
This 14-pager has great artwork and wonderful staging. I like the colouring job by the colourist, too. Interesting that normal townsmen would break the law and take payment from one railroad company for them to sabotage a rival company. And also interesting that a band of Cheyenne (Native American) tribesmen would aid one railroad company against its rival just to obtain a couple hands full of rifles and ammunition, given that they might have been blamed for any violence that resulted, and might have faced retaliation from the townspeople's vigilantes. They usually wanted to stay out of "The White Man's " business, lest they be wrongly blamed for acts that would give the greedy element among them to allow their government or military to enforce further "punishment" on their tribes.
The Cheyenne were a Northern Plains tribe, which resided on grasslands and near patches of forest, in cold climates (of Montana, the western portions of The Dakotas, eastern Wyoming, northern Colorado and Nebraska. They hunted buffalo, and wore buffalo and deerskin (buckskin) breeches and shirts. Normal tribesmen did wear headbands with a few feathers in Them, and chieftains wore headdresses with many Eagle feathers. They braided their hair. The Chief appearing earlier in this story is dressed like a southwestern desert tribesman (Apache or Navajo), with a featherless headband, freeflowing long locks of hair, and warm weather clothing. Later, at the Cheyenne campsite, there are tribesmen with feathers held by their headband, and the Chief there, has a full eagle feather headdress, but none of the warriors have braided hair, and some of them have the thick, cloth, desert-style headbands and are wearing nothing but a small loin cloth. It seems that the artist tossed in tribesmen from several different tribes (some from several hundreds of miles away, into one scene (just to provide variety). I think the warriors, even if they went shirtless in mid summer, because of the heat, would be wearing breeches.
I worked on two jobs for The Cheyenne Tribes at two different reservations, back during the early 1970s. I also worked for The Blackfeet, Mandan, Hidatsa, Nez Perce, Umatilla, Rosebud Sioux Tribe, Paiutes, and Shoshone US Great Plains tribes, and The Navajo Nation and a few Pueblo Tribes in The USA's Southwest. So, I know the difference, as I've seen them wear their traditional pre-20th Century clothing during festivals and religious ceremonies. And, of course I've seen many photographs of them from the last half of the 19th Century. Despite the slight error, Dubois/Forgione seem to have done at least some research before the drawing started, unlike so many other US Western genre comic books I've read.
(4) Roaring Towns of The Old West - Bisbee, Arizona
Being an amateur historian, I enjoyed learning about the highlighted robbery event at Bisbee. It was drawn very dramatically, and being on the inside of the back cover, we get to enjoy the inking much more than with colour overlain. During the early 1970s, I worked in both Arizona and New Mexico for The Navajo Nation (whose reservation takes up a good chunk of the land area of both states.
(5) The Saline Pueblos
Interesting to learn about the conflicts between The Apaches and Pueblo Tribes back in the 17th through 19th Centuries. The Spanish Catholic missionaries came to New Mexico in 1598, and built their first cathedral there in 1613. I worked on jobs for 2 different Pueblo Tribes in New Mexico during the early 1970s.
All in all, reading this book was very entertaining, and it was also enjoyable to see the high-quality artwork.
-
I'd like to learn from one of you lifetime, native Brits, whether or not your "Counties" are analogous to our Canadian Provinces and US States, and whether or not The Dukedoms (Northumbria, Yorkshire, Devon, Cornwall, etc.) used to be the equivalent level of Canadian Provinces and US States. And I'd also like to know exactly how the national parliaments of The UK member nations (or states, if you prefer), affect the levels of government in The UK. Do they act as completely independent full levels of government, with large contingents of employees? Or do they just act as small adjuncts to The UK "National" Government?
Well, Robb, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't know the answers to all your questions about UK laws, but I don't see anyone jumping forward to reply either, so it's time to do what you do when you don't know something, and Google it!
Came across this on Wikipedia, hope it helps a little:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_Kingdom
I know it's a bit of a cop out, all I can say in my defense is that I'm housebound now so as the saying goes, "I don't get out much!" ;)
All the best
K1ngcat
-
Steve Donovan - Western Marshal
This single-story book is much more my style than books filled with stories too short to develop settings, characterisation, and plots with reasonable pacing. It would be a fun assignment for a storywriter and storyboarder, and penciler (for that matter). The artwork, by Everett Kinstler is a joy to see. The staging is excellent. The panels are not cluttered at all. They have room to breathe, and yet, show lots of detail, when that is necessary to understand the story. The colourist did a masterful job, as well. I remember the TV show, starring Douglas Kennedy. I agree with Crash that Kinstler seems to have used Stone-faced Randolph Scott, at least partially, as a model for Donovan. To me, only a few side views of him look like Scott. Overall, Donovan looks like a cross-blending of Scott and the TV show's star, Kennedy.
As to the story, itself, it is entertaining, and partly realistic. I think it's a bit too hard to believe that Donovan, knowing that the other ranchers and Bent would fight each other with their crews of cowhands, and possibly wreck that town, and endanger the lives of innocent townspeople, wouldn't have had reinforcements of territorial Federal agents or military sent there, or allowed him to raise a militia by deputizing local men to help him. Furthermore, Dubois seems to have made an error in Donovan's dialogue, where he mentions that the previous Marshal is in his office. According to the early part of the story, the previous peace officer in that town was a "Sheriff". But, THAT seems to be an error, as well, as the introduction to the story mentions the towns of Abeline and Dodge City, both of which were the railroad shipping points for cattle driven north from Texas. They were both located in Kansas, which had achieved statehood in 1861, so it had counties and county sheriff's departments. Cheyenne was in Wyoming Territory, which was NOT a state. And so, as I understand it, was policed by The US Federal Government, which would have Marshals, subordinate Federal agents, deputy Marshals, and Federal Army troops. Any cities could have their own police forces. But, there were no counties to warrant sheriffs, and I don't believe any smaller divisions of the territories had "Sheriffs". I believe that the largest town in each division had a US Marshal's office, and help was sent from nearby Marshals' offices, deputizing local men, or, in the case of large amounts of help needed, US military forces were sent from the closest Army fort.
-
I'd like to learn from one of you lifetime, native Brits, whether or not your "Counties" are analogous to our Canadian Provinces and US States, and whether or not The Dukedoms (Northumbria, Yorkshire, Devon, Cornwall, etc.) used to be the equivalent level of Canadian Provinces and US States. And I'd also like to know exactly how the national parliaments of The UK member nations (or states, if you prefer), affect the levels of government in The UK. Do they act as completely independent full levels of government, with large contingents of employees? Or do they just act as small adjuncts to The UK "National" Government?
Well, Robb, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't know the answers to all your questions about UK laws, but I don't see anyone jumping forward to reply either, so it's time to do what you do when you don't know something, and Google it!
Came across this on Wikipedia, hope it helps a little:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_Kingdom
I know it's a bit of a cop out, all I can say in my defense is that I'm housebound now so as the saying goes, "I don't get out much!" ;)
All the best
K1ngcat
Thanks for the link. That DOES explain the different government jurisdictions of the legal systems of The UK Countries, which is close to what I had understood, except for the fact that Wales' legal system has been incorporated into England's system. But, it DOESN'T provide any details about the different levels of law enforcement organisations, and how they operate, including how they get their enforcement manpower, and under whose authority they actin crime prevention, criminal apprehension and other policing operations (i.e. why in The World was Chief Inspector LeStrade sent to the moors of northern England or Scotland to investigate murder cases involving ordinary (albeit extremely wealthy) citizens? Was he a UK Federal Agent? I thought he was Chief Inspector of The London City Police (or, at most, of The Greater London Area Police - IF there was ever such a thing). That brings up another question.....Are their Regional or Metro Area police forces for the major Cities like London, Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool?
I spent parts of 25 years in The UK and I never found out the answer to those questions - probably because I'm not a criminal. In Canada and USA the legal authorities are very clear cut, because they laid that out fairly clearly on the occasion of their federation, in very recent times, without having had an ancient previous history of haphazard legal system development and amalgamation. The UK system seems to have been pieced together with several accommodations to facilitate unions of disparate systems with different traditions.
-
A Deputy US Marshall could also serve as a de facto Town Sheriff under certain conditions.
-
(i.e. why in The World was Chief Inspector LeStrade sent to the moors of northern England or Scotland to investigate murder cases involving ordinary (albeit extremely wealthy) citizens? Was he a UK Federal Agent?
Seriously?
Because Conan Doyle wrote it that way.
In any case,
Metropolitan Police officers have legal jurisdiction throughout all of England and Wales, including areas that have their own special police forces, such as the Ministry of Defence, as do all police officers of territorial police forces.[28] Officers also have limited powers in Scotland and Northern Ireland
So it makes sense, if the case was considered of significance.
Are their Regional or Metro Area police forces for the major Cities like London, Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool?
Well, even I have watched enough UK police shows to know about the London Met.
Metropolitan Police
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police
And here's Edinburgh - Police Scotland - where the fictional detective REBUS works, if I have it right.
https://www.scotland.police.uk/your-community/edinburgh/
Cheers!
-
A Deputy US Marshall could also serve as a de facto Town Sheriff under certain conditions.
Yes, IF Federal interests were involved, OR local authorities declared an emergency, and asked The Federal Government for help, or The Federal Government declared the situation disaster or some kind of dire emergency with the protection of the residents required. But, even in those cases, I don't believe that the Deputy Marshal would become a "Sheriff" and be employed by a county. He would be a Federal employee, taking orders from his Federal superior officers, still in The Federal system, being assigned to keep the peace in a local jurisdiction given as aid to that agency, IF it was a county inside a state. If it was a town inside a territory, it would already be in the federal jurisdiction, and it would simply be the jurisdictional organisation sending reinforcements to that portion of its jurisdiction.
-
Well, I can tell you a wee bit about how Scotland is set up. We have a parliament but there are a number of powers reserved to the Westminster parliament. As the Scottish legal system is different to that of England things are a done a bit differently here. Policing is done through Police Scotland, an amalgamation of all the local police areas in the country, and, yes, Rebus is a D.I in Edinburgh. The show Shetland features Douglas Henshall as D.I. Jimmy Perez, Police Scotland.
Scotland also has a different and independent education system and the NHS (National Health Service) here is run from Edinburgh. The Holyrood parliament has very little options as far as taxis concerned, most being reserved to Westminster. As is defence and foreign relations. Our railway, Scotrail, has recently been nationalised having been run by a private companies in the past who made a bit of a mess of the service. Unfortunately we are in the middle of an industrial relations problem as the union wants a big pay hike.
But back to policing. Although police in Scotland are not armed as a rule, there are firearms officers and they are visible at times of potential trouble. Potential criminal cases are put before the Procurator Fiscal where the decisions are made as to whether they can go to trial. We don't have sheriffs or marshalls as such but there are traditional titles with nothing to do nowadays with the law.
Robb, LeStrade was a Scotland Yard officer and it was normal for a police force who couldn't solve a serious case or didn't have the manpower or facilities to send for a Scotland Yard detective. You might enjoy many of the British Library releases of classic British crime novels currently on sale. Lots of Scotland Yard detectives turning up in more remote areas.
Customs and excise - sorry, I should say HM Revenue and Customs officers tend to be seen only at airports and ports.
Serious crime, Special Branch, NCA are all, I think, part of British policing as opposed to different agencies.
Can't remember if British Transport Police in Scotland have been absorbed by Police Scotland.
Hope I haven't bored you. And pleas correct me if I got this stuff wrong.
-
Well, I can tell you a wee bit about how Scotland is set up. We have a parliament but there are a number of powers reserved to the Westminster parliament. As the Scottish legal system is different to that of England things are a done a bit differently here. Policing is done through Police Scotland, an amalgamation of all the local police areas in the country,
The Holyrood parliament has very little options as far as taxis concerned, most being reserved to Westminster. As is defence and foreign relations.
Although police in Scotland are not armed as a rule, there are firearms officers and they are visible at times of potential trouble. Potential criminal cases are put before the Procurator Fiscal where the decisions are made as to whether they can go to trial. We don't have sheriffs or marshalls as such but there are traditional titles with nothing to do nowadays with the law.
Robb, LeStrade was a Scotland Yard officer and it was normal for a police force who couldn't solve a serious case or didn't have the manpower or facilities to send for a Scotland Yard detective. You might enjoy many of the British Library releases of classic British crime novels currently on sale. Lots of Scotland Yard detectives turning up in more remote areas.
Serious crime, Special Branch, NCA are all, I think, part of British policing as opposed to different agencies.
Thanks for the scoop on Scotland. I had a feeling that Conan-Doyle wouldn't use any institutional situations that were not possible. So, it was as I surmised, that The UK national police system would handle cases where the local police entity didn't have the manpower or expertise to handle the situation. The difference between The UK and Canada and USA is that the two North American former colonies had large areas of very sparsely-settled territories that needed a large force to cover, and often had policing problems that involved international issues. So a Federal policing agency, independent of the provinces and states, was needed. Such a national agency could also police Federally-owned lands, border crossings, interstate transportation systems, and interstate and international situations inside the individual states and provinces, and support state and provincial and local police forces in situations they can't handle alone, and need support. So, in the two giant North American nations, an extra level or two of separate policing systems are more practical, and the different systems are tied together closely enough that there working in cooperation in both emergency and non-emergency situations is common, and is easily initiated. Whereas, The UK is small and compact enough to have the different levels of government's policing handled by autonomous different departments, basically more tied together within the same system. The only difference is that The US and Canadian systems have a little more official red tape formalities to go through for the lower-level systems to get requested help from the higher, and, in some cases, the lower level departments may resent a higher department's perceived "horning in on the lower department's territory unwanted in that situation (e.g. when The Federal Government perceives that there is Federal interest in a case that the locals feel they can and should handle alone, without interference).
I appreciate finally learning about The UK system. And I have learned that there are no County policing entities in The UK. But, I would still like to know about what functions their county governments provide.
-
Okey dokey, I'll get back to you but Scotland is in some ways different to England. Dinner first. ;)
-
The Traditional counties in The UK have been divided into smaller administrative units, and reorganised several times in the 1960s and 1970s. Here is a blurb outlining the new administrative units' functions:
"After 1974 in England and Wales, administrative counties provided police and fire services, education, social welfare services, public transport, traffic regulation, consumer protection, libraries, and some highways and parks. The county council was the general governing board of the administrative county; it was a large body, with 50 to 100 popularly elected members, and much of its basic administrative work was delegated to committees. In 1975 the 34 administrative counties of Scotland were replaced by nine administrative regions, each subdivided into a number of districts."
I assume that the difference between The UK system and The Canadian and US systems is that The UK's Federal Government has more direct control over its counties' operations (e.g. the two systems are tied together much more closely), whereas the additional level of government between them in Canada (provinces) and USA (states) are independent entities, which have their own powers, and whose consent is often required for cooperation between them and their Federal Government to occur. So that, basically, an extra level of red tape exists. For example, The US and Canadian Federal Governments sometimes collect taxes for their State/Provincial and county governments, and, later, parcel them out and send them to the subordinate governments, and other state/prov. taxes are collected directly by the lower, subordinate governments.
The major difference between The UK and the two North American nations in policing seems to be that US has different, entire police agencies/department systems for cities, counties, states, and national (Federal) governmental entities, and Canada has them for cities, metro areas, provinces, and national(Federal) government (4 levels, each, under relatively independent conditions), whereas The UK basically has only one, large national system, in which they operate three separate levels,(1) (local (cities/towns or semi-rural larger areas); (2) Metro; (3) National/Federal , with Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland having a few limited powers as an adjunct to the basic Federal UK-wide system. And all 3 of these levels are basically integrated into the same single system, whereas in Canada, and even moreso in USA, they are independent entities, required to cooperate with the agencies of the other levels.
-
Right, local government. Here we have local councils defined by the Scottish government. e.g. Stiirling; West Lothian: Borders; Monklands and so on. Elections for councillors are broken up into wards using the transferable vote system. Instead of ticking one box for the candidate of your choice, you list in order of preference- 1, 2, 3 etc. You don't have to pick more then one though.
These councils control local public transport, local roads, refuse collection, local schools, planning permissions, libraries, social work locally, you get the idea.
Elections for MSPs to Holyrood use the additional member system, designed to stop one party always having a majority.
They control, well, see here
https://www.gov.scot/about/what-the-government-does/
The British govt at Westminster is in overall control of defence etc. First past the post, which isn't very good when there are more than 2 parties, as is the case.
Once again, please correct me if there are errors.
-
Wikipedia's entry on the Metropolitan Police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police
-
Wikipedia's entry on the Metropolitan Police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police
Fascinating stuff, SS, unfortunately the article doesn't include information on the number of sex offenders, rapists, racists, murderers, mysogynists, homophobes, extortionists, bribe-takers, liars, thugs and bullies currently employed by the Met. Remind me if I've missed anyone out... ::)
-
As long as we're on the subject, the roles of the Sheriff's Department and the Police Department are especially complicated in the Los Angeles metropolitan area. The LAPD has jurisdiction over the city of Los Angeles while the Sheriff's Department, a county organization, has jurisdiction over non-incorporated areas (that is, areas which aren't part of either LA or of another city). What makes it complicated is that the LA area is so huge and the City's development was so chaotic that many places the general public thinks of as "Los Angeles" are either separate cities or unincorporated areas. Whenever there's an election for Mayor of Los Angeles a slew of voters wonder why the race doesn't show up on their official ballots. They didn't realize that they were either residents of one of the small municipalities which seem to be in Los Angeles but aren't, or they live in one of the unincorporated zones that dot the landscape. Further muddling things is the fact that some of the smaller cities, lacking the budget to fund things like a Fire Department (typically a city responsibility), strike deals with the City of LA to service their area.
In a metropolitan area this big and this jumbled inevitably the different agencies bang up against each other. Sometimes turf fights arise. The Los Angeles Police Department is legendary (rightly so) for its corruption and misuse of force, but even they play second fiddle to the Sheriff's Department. The two leviathans are currently feuding over control of the Metro light rail and bus lines. Metro is a County-level organization, but presently the job of policing the trains, stations, and busses is split between the sheriff and the police departments of Los Angeles and Long Beach, the cities at either end of the region. Until about five years ago the Sheriff's Department controlled the entire operation. They were renowned for their contemptuous attitude toward the public, their racism, and their tendency to use (shall we say) a heavy hand while enforcing non-criminal infractions of the rules.
Now our present sheriff, who runs the department as his personal fiefdom and has resisted every attempt to force transparency and/or responsibility upon the organization, is demanding that Metro scrap the arrangement and return to the Sheriff sole jurisdiction over policing the train stops as well as enforcing the "passenger code of conduct" which regulates things like playing loud music, hawking merchandise on the train, and pissing on the platform. To back up his demand he's threatened to remove his some 300 officers from their posts, theoretically leaving those portions of the line without cops. To support his proposal he's trotted out all the classic knee-jerk lines about rising crime, noble deputies unable do their job, etc. etc. He never seems to mention that by reverting to the sheriff-only plan, many millions of dollars that presently go to pay LA and Long Beach for Metro policing would now flow into the Sheriff's Department.
It's life in the Big City!
-
Yes Blues Man, a few omissions. But hasn't the Met long been noted for instances of corruption? Nothing changes it seems.
-
Paw, nothing changes, indeed! Here's an instance where a famous "lawman" in our area also ran the local vice.
https://www.historynet.com/wyatt-earp-turned-business-idaho/ This was a very rough area, where clandestine gambling and prostitution was still tolerated until the early 1960's. The "hotels" in Wallace Idaho even advertised on their matchbooks! It's impossible that the local gendarmes were unaware of this. I believe one of the "hotels" has even been turned into a local museum. Cheers, Bowers
-
Bat Masterson 2
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=38913
I remember Gene Barry as Masterson in the original TV show, when TV was new and cowboy shows were everywhere.
This show stood out, Bat was immaculately dressed as later would be Steed in the Avengers. He was tough, masculine but not rough.
The Lead Souvenir
That first page should be mandatory for anyvbody going to a school and studying comics.
Straight into the action, Cane vs Gun in close-up - Cane wins! and on the first page we have coming revenge set up.
Another artist using an existing character as a model, I think. The close-up in panel 3 looks somewhat like Richard Boone to me.
'Jail Delivery'. new expression to me, but no doubt quite accurate.
Scrounge said, 'performs back surgery in a non-sterile environment, crook regains use of his legs and doesn't die of infection and warns hero of criminal plot, yeahhhhhh...
Well, the artist doesn't have room to spend a page on the details of the surgery. In any case, that sort of thing was not uncommon until recently. Doctors were few and far between. What is somewhat unlikely is that Bat was digging around near the spine and got the bullet out and he's walking around fairly soon. That he would owe Bat a debt and find a way to pay it off is quite realistic.
The story works and has quite a lot of detail for a short story. Very succinct.
I choose not to read text stories as a general rule.
The Red-Hot ringer.
First panel, dialog and image gives you three characters and context instantly.
I love the way the art amplifies the elements in the story.
The boys face panel 4 first page shows puzzlement, Top of page 3, the Blacksmith's face, he is planning something, and the impatience and anger on the strangers face.
The Vanishing Gandy Dancers
A lot of words on the first page, but he is on site at the raliway by the last panel.
Next page. Panel 1 sets the scene, action starts panel 2, Panel 3 shading and atmosphere. Panel 4 great widescreeen action. Blow up the page and put it on your wall!
The story works, as a story. Gaylord Du Bois was adept at assembling the elements he needed to make a story work, but he apparently wasn't adverse to stretching a point at times.
He needed something that the chief owed Bat, so Bat could get the information.
But bringing him into town to buy guns? I'm not sure there weren't regulations to prevent Indians buying guns.
The two one page 'history' pieces. I don't mind these, they are often quite informative.
Unusual to see a comic page on the outside back page tho!
When I was an adolescent reading this stuff, I never appreciated just how good Paul S Newman and Gaylord Du Bois were as writers. Didn't know their names of course, and they don't have a clearly identifiable style.
Cheers!
-
Four Colour 0675 - Steve Donovan Western Marshall
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=34869
Crash said,
I vaguely remember seeing an episode of this series when I was very young. IMDB tells me it was an independent syndicated series that ran a single season.
I never knew that there was a "Western Marshall' western TV series.
STEVE DONOVAN, WESTERN MARSHALL 1955 Douglas Kennedy famous gun twirling opening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlIDulkQrh8
But Dell also ran
Ernest Haycox's Western Marshal who was Dan Mitchell.
Kinstler did the art on both.
There are a number of these on CB+ and they are worth seeking out.
One of the reasons I chose these comics was to draw attention to the treasures in the Dell section.
There are many comics just listed under 'four colour comics' and it pays to look at them in detail. The 1942 series has #472 comics.
Rusty Lee.
There always had to be an old codger - often for comedy releif- in these things on the screen. I think that provided the character someone to talk to - to explain plot points.
Confusion on page 2 where two characters have the same colour vests.
Page 5, center panel. The lines of the buildings and railing push your eyes toward the action. Kinstler uses this technique several times in this story.
This is subliminal. Kirby for one, used it a lot on his covers, particularly in the 50's.
This story is a pretty standard one for a western, but this is also a master-class from writer and artist as to how to make a bog-standard story work and be interesting.
Somewhere, someone pointed out that there are only seven basic story formulas for westerns.
Not sure I agree, but most writers only seem to use a few basic stories.
Look at the last panel on page #30. Tension, patience, anticipation. And words and image work together to create this.
The 'Big' rancher's change of heart on the final page is a bit corny, but one of the shortcomings of a comic story is having to fit in a lot in a short time.
I wanted to get away from superheroes for a time. And I hope I've encouraged some to take a look at the Dell archive.
KIngcat's choice tomorrow. Can't wait!
-
Four Colour 0675 - Steve Donovan Western Marshall
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=34869
Crash said,
I vaguely remember seeing an episode of this series when I was very young. IMDB tells me it was an independent syndicated series that ran a single season.
I never knew that there was a "Western Marshall' western TV series.
STEVE DONOVAN, WESTERN MARSHALL 1955 Douglas Kennedy famous gun twirling opening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlIDulkQrh8
But Dell also ran
Ernest Haycox's Western Marshal who was Dan Mitchell.
Kinstler did the art on both.
There are a number of these on CB+ and they are worth seeking out.
One of the reasons I chose these comics was to draw attention to the treasures in the Dell section.
There are many comics just listed under 'four colour comics' and it pays to look at them in detail. The 1942 series has #472 comics.
As far as I know, Dell ad a Four Color Comics series in 1939, which had less than 200 issues. And its 1942-1962 series had about 1336 or 1337 issues. I'm sure I, myself, quite a few more than 472 different issues. Where did you get the 472 figure? The Steve Donovan book we are reviewing, itself, is issue #675, and, I'm sure that almost every number (if not ALL assigned numbers) each had a commercial issue release.
-
The # 472 figure is from CB+'s lists, that's the way they have been catalogued, and I wanted to point out that there are 472 books there that you need to go through individually to find out what they are.
They are not the only ones catalogued as just 'Four Colour'
Cheers!
-
The # 472 figure is from CB+'s lists, that's the way they have been catalogued, and I wanted to point out that there are 472 books there that you need to go through individually to find out what they are.
They are not the only ones catalogued as just 'Four Colour'
Cheers!
Ah.... Now I understand. The 472 books are all PD, and all of Four Color Series II's PD issues that CB+ has uploaded. Most of the several hundred I have are non-PD, being the cartoon-based Disney, WB, MGM, Walter Lantz, Walt Kelly, etc.