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Comic And Book Related => Comic Book Plus Reading Group => Topic started by: The Australian Panther on December 12, 2022, 12:46:02 AM

Title: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 12, 2022, 12:46:02 AM
Back in 'the day' it was common practice for some 'dramatic' comic strips in newspapers to have a Christmas story.
I remember the Disney ones which would always reach the climax on Christmas Eve.

It seems Will Eisner did this regularly with the Spirit inserts
Here are two and there is at least one more in our archives.     

The Spirit (1941-12-28) - Parkchester Review
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=39126

The Spirit (1940-12-22) - Minneapolis Star Journal
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=33192

There are also several of these in Schoolgirls picture library.

Schoolgirls' Picture Library 040 - Christmas in The Highlands
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=76870

I was aware that not all the Christmas stories on CB+ are in the 'Christmas' section.
So I decided to highlight some  of them.
My idea and Paw Broon's encyclopedic knowledge of the collection to help me find them.
Thanks Paw!   

Happy yuletide reading all!
https://historythings.com/what-is-yuletide-anyway/
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 12, 2022, 08:31:32 AM
Interesting selections, Panther. Here are my thoughts on the first of The Spirit ones from the Parkchester Review:

The Christmas Spirit

Interesting the way the tales weave in amongst each other. A bit reminiscent of A Christmas Carol, with hardened hearts finding redemption at Christmas, but this time through kindness. Though I did get a little confused a couple of times, and it ends quite abruptly.

Lady Luck

I wasn’t familiar with this character, so I was thinking it was going to be more serious. I guess ending with a Merry Christmas bomb is more fun than a real bomb, but it didn’t really work for me.

Mr Mystic

Mr Mystic and the Spirit team up to free a boy who was framed for murder and they all live happily ever after … except for the crooks.

Overall

I’ve never read any Spirit comics, so these characters are all new to me. If I was already familiar with them, I probably would have enjoyed it more. But it was a nice upbeat comic for Christmas. Good to see some of the heroes and heroines spreading the Christmas cheer. For those in the know, are these characters usually humorous?

Cheers

Quirky Quokka
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: paw broon on December 12, 2022, 09:35:27 AM
The Spirit is one of the real biggies and Will Eisner is considered one of the all time great creators. Rightly so. 
Lady Luck can be a wee gem at times.  I enjoy her tales.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 12, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
Quote
For those in the know, are these characters usually humorous? 

It's interesting to see the perspective of someone who has never met the Spirit or Lady Luck before.
I've never thought of the Spirit as primarily humorous, but I can see why you might think so from only reading one example of each.
Lady Luck? Not comedy but deliberatly light-hearted. The Strip doesn't take itself too seriously.

A better description for both, would  be whimsical, in the same way as Walt Kelly.
These comics were created by Eisner and published in Newspapers as separate sections.
One of the concerns was to create something that would also appeal to adults rather than regular comic book readers. To that end, many of the Spirit stories have a very serious intent indeed, but always in the particular style he used for the strip.
If you are interested, look for some of the stand-alone graphic novels Eisner published towards the end of his career. You will see a similar style and very adult material indeed.
If these Reading Group selections do nothing more than introduce you to the SPIRIT and will Eisner's work,QQ, I will consider it a job well done.
Cheers!               
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Robb_K on December 13, 2022, 12:55:10 AM

Interesting selections, Panther. Here are my thoughts on the first of The Spirit ones from the Parkchester Review:

The Christmas Spirit

Interesting the way the tales weave in amongst each other. A bit reminiscent of A Christmas Carol, with hardened hearts finding redemption at Christmas, but this time through kindness. Though I did get a little confused a couple of times, and it ends quite abruptly.

Lady Luck

I wasn’t familiar with this character, so I was thinking it was going to be more serious. I guess ending with a Merry Christmas bomb is more fun than a real bomb, but it didn’t really work for me.

Mr Mystic

Mr Mystic and the Spirit team up to free a boy who was framed for murder and they all live happily ever after … except for the crooks.

Overall

I’ve never read any Spirit comics, so these characters are all new to me. If I was already familiar with them, I probably would have enjoyed it more. But it was a nice upbeat comic for Christmas. Good to see some of the heroes and heroines spreading the Christmas cheer. For those in the know, are these characters usually humorous?

Cheers

Quirky Quokka


Every Spirit Story I've read has had a slight touch of whimsical humour injected by Eisner, to give the story a lighter overall feel and lighter mood at the end.  There is always some whimsical repartee between The Spirit and Comidssioner Dolan, or The Spirit and Ebony.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: K1ngcat on December 13, 2022, 02:52:16 AM
Thanks for choosing the Christmas Spirit, Panther. I've responded to them in chronological order, starting with the 1940 entry.

So the Spirit believes that the Christmas Spirit fights crime and evil? It's interesting that a Jewish writer would espouse such a theory, though it may just be an example of Eisner knowing his audience. My beloved late wife was Jewish and she couldn't wait to move out from her parents so she could have an Xmas tree in the holiday season like "everyone else." Her Uncle also sat shiva for her when she married me. It's complicated stuff.

It does raise questions about the Spirit's origin - I wouldn't espouse the theory that he was a Christ-like figure though he did "rise again" with a power of self regeneration that suggests he may have become literally immortal. More revealing is the fact that he dug himself free from his own grave, meaning his body was never embalmed, strongly suggesting Denny Colt was Jewish.

As with much Eisner art there's a lot of fairly fussy detail and a good few distance shots, I note that Simple Simon bears a close resemblance to Mr Dusk (though I can't say who came first!) The crux of the story is that even the most black-hearted villains can have a soft and sentimental side that will prompt them to act against their worst intentions (though I wouldn't recommend trying this theory out on The Red Skull or Dr Doom! Maybe you'd have more success with Magneto, who is also, coincidentally, Jewish?)

Whatever one's beliefs, Eisner's Spirit stories so often possess a sense of warmth and humanity (okay, and whimsy!) that shine through and set the character apart from the host of costumed do-gooders inhabiting the "funny papers." In spite of Eisner's collection of racially stereotyped sidekicks like Ebony, I'm still convinced they were intended to be somehow more inclusive than divisive, though maybe I can only say that because I'm white. I invite opposing opinions.

I'm more worried about how things turned out for the caged kangaroo!

On Lady Luck, I'm not familiar enough with Agatha Christie to appreciate the parody, and I'm not familiar enough with Chuck Mazoujian's art to say for certain whether or not Eisner did the layouts, though I have my suspicions. I enjoyed the strip much more when it was in the hands of Klaus Nordling, but this is still good.

Most disturbing is Mr Mystic. This is NOT a tale full of Xmas spirit, humour, and whimsy. This is a tale of the frightful misunderstandings that can blight human relationships, and which the Shadowman is plainly only too happy to take advantage of.  Has Elena really loved and courted death all her life? Or is she just so mad with her human beau that she'll set all else aside to hurt him? Will Penny let her true feelings for Mr Mystic be known in later episodes, and will he be able to accept them? Or, like a Cornell Woolrich novel, will everything turn to crap before our eyes? These four short pages are pumped full of incredibly strong and conflicting emotions which are anything but Christmassy, and more power to Powell for unleashing them upon us. It's heartbreakingly sad, but it affects me far more than all the Santas and Xmas trees you could shake a stick at. Maybe that's just me.

I'll take a look at the next one another night.
K1ngcat
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: SuperScrounge on December 13, 2022, 03:01:12 AM
Schoolgirl Picture Library #40

Since the Spirit is a known quantity, I decided to start here.

Christmas in the Highlands

Decorate a Scottish castle in real English style? Is that allowed?  ;)

Good art, nice story.


The Spirit 1941-12-28

The Christmas Spirit: Trilogy

Not bad, although the executing Santa Claus reminded me of the Red Dwarf episode where Lister watched Winnie the Pooh be executed.

Lady Luck

Some nice cheesecake shots. This was acceptable to newspapers of the time?

The present doesn't make much sense though. Why would the present go off at midnight when the people might be asleep and not see it? That aside it was an otherwise amusing romp.

Mr. Mystic

Cute. I liked the way the artist kept the guest characters mostly secret for the end reveal.

Other than that we have the cliche of someone about to executed to artificially drive up the stakes. Also why would a desk sergeant have the authority to free a kid on death row? Wouldn't that be up to the governor and/or warden? Minor points, but I'm a member of the Nitpickers Guild.  ;)


The Spirit 1940-12-22

The Spirit

Yeah, Spirit, it's not like Santa doesn't have plenty to do on Christmas Eve already you decide to have him do your job as well. *sigh*  ::)  ;)

Cute.

Lady Luck

Kind of surprised the aunt didn't solve the crime. Okay story.

Mr. Mystic

Uhhhh... wow... Merry Christmas readers, Elena loves death more than Mr. Mystic. That's an interesting message to send readers. Yikes.

Was this part of an ongoing storyline or was it a stand-alone? It feels like some parts are missing which might be answered in previous installments.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Morgus on December 13, 2022, 04:50:41 AM
Thank you for a very nice Christmas present. I've always loved any chance I can get to read The Spirit in the original sections that were made for the papers, complete with secondary features like Mr Mystic. It's getting harder to find them unless you spend big bucks for the originals. I can understand the allure to collecting them. I almost always go through all the stories first, just looking at the art highlights, then come back and read them and dig out the background details. The lines, the details, it never gets old.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Robb_K on December 13, 2022, 05:28:52 AM

Thanks for choosing the Christmas Spirit, Panther. I've responded to them in chronological order, starting with the 1940 entry.

So the Spirit believes that the Christmas Spirit fights crime and evil? (1) It's interesting that a Jewish writer would espouse such a theory, though it may just be an example of Eisner knowing his audience. My beloved late wife was Jewish and she couldn't wait to move out from her parents so she could have an Xmas tree in the holiday season like "everyone else." Her Uncle also sat shiva for her when she married me. It's complicated stuff.

(2) It does raise questions about the Spirit's origin - I wouldn't espouse the theory that he was a Christ-like figure though he did "rise again" with a power of self regeneration that suggests he may have become literally immortal. (3) More revealing is the fact that he dug himself free from his own grave, meaning his body was never embalmed, strongly suggesting Denny Colt was Jewish.

As with much Eisner art there's a lot of fairly fussy detail and a good few distance shots, I note that Simple Simon bears a close resemblance to Mr Dusk (though I can't say who came first!) The crux of the story is that even the most black-hearted villains can have a soft and sentimental side that will prompt them to act against their worst intentions (though I wouldn't recommend trying this theory out on The Red Skull or Dr Doom! Maybe you'd have more success with Magneto, who is also, coincidentally, Jewish?)

Whatever one's beliefs, Eisner's Spirit stories so often possess a sense of warmth and humanity (okay, and whimsy!) that shine through and set the character apart from the host of costumed do-gooders inhabiting the "funny papers." (4) In spite of Eisner's collection of racially stereotyped sidekicks like Ebony, I'm still convinced they were intended to be somehow more inclusive than divisive, though maybe I can only say that because I'm white. I invite opposing opinions.

I'm more worried about how things turned out for the caged kangaroo!

On Lady Luck, I'm not familiar enough with Agatha Christie to appreciate the parody, and I'm not familiar enough with Chuck Mazoujian's art to say for certain whether or not Eisner did the layouts, though I have my suspicions. I enjoyed the strip much more when it was in the hands of Klaus Nordling, but this is still good.

Most disturbing is Mr Mystic. This is NOT a tale full of Xmas spirit, humour, and whimsy. This is a tale of the frightful misunderstandings that can blight human relationships, and which the Shadowman is plainly only too happy to take advantage of.  Has Elena really loved and courted death all her life? Or is she just so mad with her human beau that she'll set all else aside to hurt him? Will Penny let her true feelings for Mr Mystic be known in later episodes, and will he be able to accept them? Or, like a Cornell Woolrich novel, will everything turn to crap before our eyes? These four short pages are pumped full of incredibly strong and conflicting emotions which are anything but Christmassy, and more power to Powell for unleashing them upon us. It's heartbreakingly sad, but it affects me far more than all the Santas and Xmas trees you could shake a stick at. Maybe that's just me.

I'll take a look at the next one another night.
K1ngcat   


(1) It is not surprising, in the slightest, to me that a young aspiring Jewish author, in a large majority Christian country, would write towards the vast majority of his potential audience.  And, as an American, he would not choose to ignore such a revered part of his nation's cultural tradition.  In addition to that, all Jews, with the cultural memory of a couple thousand years of persecution and restrictive living in religious Christian and Moslem countries, want their newly adopted secular-leaning nations to be as secular as possible in all aspects, to avoid ever again ending up trapped in a situation where prejudice and intolerance, for any minority, reigns.  A good example of this is seen in the fact that most of the most famous and popular American secular Christmas songs have been written by Jews (many of them devout in their Jewish beliefs). Irving Berlin, Harold Arlen, and many other Tin Pan Alley songwriters, etc.  They were not converts to Christianity, or Jews who had a Christmas tree in their homes.  They were Jews who wanted Christmas to become a more secular, National holiday, concentrating on good feelings towards all Mankind, and things that ALL Americans, Christians or not, could share, rather than Christians being separate from non-Christians in their celebration, and concentrating on things they were taught in Church, which unfortunately included that The Sin of The killing of Christ will be on the heads of The Jews forever.  The unfair treatment of minorities is also a reason why much larger percentage of Jewish citizens (than the average citizen in USA, or Canada, or even The UK, for that matter) choose to enter the field of law (lawyers and judges) to help make as sure as possible that there will be equal protection under the laws for all citizens (and even non-citizen residents). It is very clear from the body of Eisner's work that justice and fairness were very important to him and his outlook on life.

(2) I agree.  I doubt that Eisner intended for The Spirit to be a Christlike figure.  I think he simply intended him to be a man dedicated to fighting against injustice and the resulting actions coming from ill will.The self regeneration probably just represents an awakening "spirit" in him, when he decided that if he wanted The World to be as good as possible for people, with no injustice (or, realistically, as little as possible), he'd have to take it on himself, to do the most he could do to help that cause.

(3) Suggesting denny Colt had been raised Jewish because he had not been embalmed leads me to ask the following question: "In Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and protestant Christian traditions, do ALL believers have to be embalmed?" I don't know very much about Christian religious rites and traditions.

(4) I agree 100% with you on this.  I don't believe Eisner was trying to poke fun at Ebony for being a so-called Black person.  I think he was trying to be inclusive by making a person of African heritage (African-American) his sidekick.  And he made him funny-looking for the general comedy effect - not specifically to denigrate him.  He could have denigrated other African American characters, not associated with The Spirit, if that were his purpose.  I think that the fact that he looks like a stereotyped Black character, that happened to have been invented by people to belittle Africans is just a coincidence of osmosis and the drawing style of the times.  I don't think Eisner had the slightest intention to denigrate Ebony.  It's a case of doing what everyone else is doing, because you've seen it all your life, and without thinking about it, you internalise the "feeling" "THAT is the way it is done".  Like picking up a swearing word or phrase from another language or culture without thinking about what it means literally (i.e. involuntarily blurting out the words, "Jesus Christ!" when you are upset or shocked, when you've lived in Christian countries all (or most of) your life, and are Jewish or Moslem, or certainly not Christian in any way).  People say what they hear, and draw what they see.  Eisner's work shows he was dedicated to fairness for everyone, not just to an elite group, or the majority of people but not some inferior ones.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 13, 2022, 07:13:23 AM
Interesting observations, Robb!
Quote
: "In Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and protestant Christian traditions, do ALL believers have to be embalmed?" I don't know very much about Christian religious rites and traditions.

in this article, note that it says, 'Allowed'' not mandatory.
https://www.everplans.com/articles/religious-perspectives-on-embalming
I do know that in the past, in wars that involved notions or groups that pitted Protestant against Catholic, like the English civil wars, both sides had strict different burial practices to carry the distinctions to the grave.
In Christianity, cremation traditionally has been a no-no, since the traditional belief is that all will be raised for judgement, so you didn't cremate a body.
So both cremation and embalming have crept in in more secular times.
1/ So, my inquiring mind has two thoughts.
Perhaps embalming, in particular, became acceptable for the following reason. From the time Magellan circumnavigated the world, and a a little earlier, men and  women often died thousands of miles from their families and their homes. And many wanted the bodies of their loved ones taken home for burial in the family plot, town or village. Embalming would have been necessary for preservation during long voyages.
I know for sure, that this was traditionally the case for the Chinese who always shipped their dead home from the goldfields to be buried with their ancestors.
2/. I don't know the reason for the Jewish ban on embalming. However the Jews were living in Egypt and persecuted by the Egyptians. Embalming is crucial to the traditional Egyptian way of life, so I have to wonder if the association of embalming with Egypt was a mitigating factor?   
Quote
   A good example of this is seen in the fact that most of the most famous and popular American secular Christmas songs have been written by Jews (many of them devout in their Jewish beliefs). Irving Berlin, Harold Arlen, and many other Tin Pan Alley songwriters, etc.  They were not converts to Christianity, or Jews who had a Christmas tree in their homes.  They were Jews who wanted Christmas to become a more secular, National holiday, concentrating on good feelings towards all Mankind,
 
I had never thought about that, so thank you.
I would include in that, the older films that Hollywood made about Christmas, given that many of the Movie Moguls, directors, writers and producers were also Jewish.
cheers!         
       
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Morgus on December 13, 2022, 07:47:00 AM
There's a book out that says just that, A.P. How the modern idea of Christmas was pretty much shaped by guys like MGM's Louis Mayer and the Warner Bros celebrating a more tolerant culture. All of this also reminds me of Big Daddy Bill Gaines, the man who said he was an atheist Jew who believed in Santa Claus.
King Cat, I know what you mean. I was lucky and had friends with a broader view, though. We'd all say "Keep Saturn in Saturnalia" and celebrate at the local Chinese restaurant, the divorced dads, the Asians, and the Jews. One time the owner put on John Fahey's Christmas album...just him doing acoustic guitar. A lovely moment. I had to leave early and an Asian girl who had a crush on me gave me a big hug and kiss and said; "Drive carefully. It's Christmas and this is a Christian country. That means half the folks on the road are going to be bombed out of their minds."
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 13, 2022, 07:59:44 AM


(4) I agree 100% with you on this.  I don't believe Eisner was trying to poke fun at Ebony for being a so-called Black person.  I think he was trying to be inclusive by making a person of African heritage (African-American) his sidekick.  And he made him funny-looking for the general comedy effect - not specifically to denigrate him.  He could have denigrated other African American characters, not associated with The Spirit, if that were his purpose.  I think that the fact that he looks like a stereotyped Black character, that happened to have been invented by people to belittle Africans is just a coincidence of osmosis and the drawing style of the times.  I don't think Eisner had the slightest intention to denigrate Ebony.  It's a case of doing what everyone else is doing, because you've seen it all your life, and without thinking about it, you internalise the "feeling" "THAT is the way it is done". 


That's interesting, Robb and K1ngcat. With this being the first time I have read these comics, these characters were all new to me and I actually thought Ebony was a talking monkey--another whimsical feature. Until I read your comments, I didn't realise he was a person. Even taking into account the way black characters were drawn back in the day, it still seems a little extreme. But Spirit does treat him kindly.

Cheers

Quirky Quokka
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 13, 2022, 08:01:28 AM
Thanks for all of your comments everyone. This is the first time I have read The Spirit and it seems I have a lot to learn. I've downloaded a regular Spirit comic and a Lady Luck one, so I'll familiarise myself with those a bit more. Your comments are enlightening, as always.

Cheers

Quirky Quokka
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Robb_K on December 13, 2022, 10:58:36 AM

There's a book out that says just that, A.P. How the modern idea of Christmas was pretty much shaped by guys like MGM's Louis Mayer and the Warner Bros celebrating a more tolerant culture. All of this also reminds me of Big Daddy Bill Gaines, the man who said he was an atheist Jew who believed in Santa Claus.
King Cat, I know what you mean. I was lucky and had friends with a broader view, though. We'd all say "Keep Saturn in Saturnalia" and celebrate at the local Chinese restaurant, along with the divorced dads, the Asians, and the Jews. One time the owner put on John Fahey's Christmas album...just him doing acoustic guitar. A lovely moment. I had to leave early and an Asian girl who had a crush on me gave me a big hug and kiss and said; "Drive carefully. It's Christmas and this is a Christian country. That means half the folks on the road are going to be bombed out of their minds."


There's an old saying among The Jews of Canada and USA, when their young children or grandchildren ask them why we don't have Christmas trees, or wait for Santa Claus to bring gifts. "We Jews celebrate Christmas too!  It's the one day of the year we don't have to wait to get a table at our favourite Chinese restaurant!"

There's an analogous one in Holland, as well.  But it's not about restaurants.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Robb_K on December 13, 2022, 11:24:10 AM

Interesting observations, Robb!
Quote
: "In Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and protestant Christian traditions, do ALL believers have to be embalmed?" I don't know very much about Christian religious rites and traditions.

in this article, note that it says, 'Allowed'' not mandatory.
https://www.everplans.com/articles/religious-perspectives-on-embalming
I do know that in the past, in wars that involved notions or groups that pitted Protestant against Catholic, like the English civil wars, both sides had strict different burial practices to carry the distinctions to the grave.
In Christianity, cremation traditionally has been a no-no, since the traditional belief is that all will be raised for judgement, so you didn't cremate a body.
So both cremation and embalming have crept in in more secular times.
1/ So, my inquiring mind has two thoughts.
Perhaps embalming, in particular, became acceptable for the following reason. From the time Magellan circumnavigated the world, and a a little earlier, men and  women often died thousands of miles from their families and their homes. And many wanted the bodies of their loved ones taken home for burial in the family plot, town or village. Embalming would have been necessary for preservation during long voyages.
I know for sure, that this was traditionally the case for the Chinese who always shipped their dead home from the goldfields to be buried with their ancestors.
2/. I don't know the reason for the Jewish ban on embalming. However the Jews were living in Egypt and persecuted by the Egyptians. Embalming is crucial to the traditional Egyptian way of life, so I have to wonder if the association of embalming with Egypt was a mitigating factor?  
Quote
   A good example of this is seen in the fact that most of the most famous and popular American secular Christmas songs have been written by Jews (many of them devout in their Jewish beliefs). Irving Berlin, Harold Arlen, and many other Tin Pan Alley songwriters, etc.  They were not converts to Christianity, or Jews who had a Christmas tree in their homes.  They were Jews who wanted Christmas to become a more secular, National holiday, concentrating on good feelings towards all Mankind,
 
I had never thought about that, so thank you.
I would include in that, the older films that Hollywood made about Christmas, given that many of the Movie Moguls, directors, writers and producers were also Jewish.
cheers!     


I doubt that The Hebrews' memory of having been enslaved by The embalming-happy Egyptians played any part in The Orthodox Jewish prohibition on embalming.  Embalming was a no-no because, since the start of Messianic Judaism (about 100 B.C.E), embalming was thought to ruin the deceased body, keeping it from being capable of being brought back to life when, at the chosen time, The Lord would raise the righteous dead to join the righteous living, to dwell together in The Lord's Kingdom in The Hereafter.  So, all ultra religious Jews know they must be not be embalmed or cremated, and be buried in the ground (earth), and not in those modern stacks of drawers that hold coffins, these days, in urban areas where there is no more land left for graveyards, or where they dig up old coffins and cremate the remains, so current deceased persons can have their own place in the ground (if only temporarily).  All that wouldn't matter to the Ethiopic Falashas, who lost contact with The Israelites and Judahites before 100 B.C.E., and whose form of Jewish worship was much more ancient than the forms in Israel and Judah evolved from 300 to 100 B.C.E.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 13, 2022, 07:51:54 PM
Quote
With this being the first time I have read these comics, these characters were all new to me and I actually thought Ebony was a talking monkey

Strangely enough, when Jack Cole created Midnight, a shameless ripoff of The Spirit appearing in Quality's Smash Comics, his Ebony substitute was a monkey...a talking monkey to boot.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 13, 2022, 09:24:30 PM
The Spirit  issue from The Minneapolis Star Journal


The Spirit

Uplifting story about the crooks responding to the spirit of Christmas, but as an Aussie, I'm worried about the caged fighting kangaroo. Did they let him out for Christmas? Also in this comic and the other Spirit one, some of the cast face the 'camera' and talk to the reader. Makes sense for a Merry Christmas one, but it reminded me of some of the Superman comics I have in three compilation volumes from 1938-1945. Superman would often turn to the camera for public service announcements. I remember one story in which some racketeers had been making shopkeepers put slot machines in their stores, thereby helping kids to get addicted to playing them. At the end, Superman turns to the camera and warns kids about the dangers of these machines. During the war years, Superman did a lot of  'turn to the camera' public service announcements, such as encouraging people to recycle waste paper for the war effort or warn people not to be tempted to buy black market goods.

Lady Luck

Lady Luck didn't seem to do much to catch the crooks. She only waved her gun at the kidnapper after little Alice had already made a break for it. Like Phantom Lady, it's amazing no one knew her secret identity, given that she is just wearing what looks like a businesswoman's suit and no mask. And speaking of that business suit, I can assure you gents that no woman could 'nimbly climb' through a second-storey window in a skirt that narrow - LOL - But it was a light-hearted romp.

Mr Mystic

Again, not being familiar with these characters, I initially thought the man in the blue suit was The Spirit. It was nice that Mr Mystic showed us how a magic trick works, but this is a bit of a downer for a Christmas issue, after the cheery 'Merry Christmas' earlier. Nothing like a bit of death and heartbreak for Christmas Eve. Does Mr Mystic end up with Penny?

It was good to read both of The Spirit comics, but I think I'll have to read some of the regular comics to get a better feel for these characters.

Cheers

Quirky Quills


Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 13, 2022, 11:08:39 PM
Quote
some of the cast face the 'camera' and talk to the reader.

QQ, this is known as 'breaking the fourth wall' and is surprisingly common, both in comics and in movies and TV.
The recent She-Hulk TV series has been almost universally condemned, not just for plain bad writing and characterization, but because it is clear that the producers have never read the source material.
The originator of the series, John Byrne, had himself (as the creator) and She-Hulk constantly arguing with each other and bending the normal conventions of the comic book narrative.
Quote
The "fourth wall" is the invisible barrier between the fictional world and the real world, the thing that separates the characters in a comic from the people reading the comic. The term comes from stage plays, where every room has only three walls, because the fourth wall is the one we look through to watch the show. The actors in the play always ignored the fourth wall, unless they were talking to the audience. 

16 Comic Book Characters Who Broke the Fourth Wall
https://www.cbr.com/16-comic-book-characters-who-broke-the-fourth-wall/
Creators of Newspaper strips often do it as a source for the daily gags.
Why Do Comics Break the Fourth Wall?
https://www.gocomics.com/blog/4703/why-do-comics-break-the-fourth-wall
Re Superman and 'Public Service announcements, during the WW II years it was routine in many comics to have a stand-alone page where the characters would implore kids to buy bonds or support the war effort in other ways.
Warning, Spoilers!
Top 10 Fourth Wall Breaks In John Byrne's She-Hulk Comics
https://www.cbr.com/fourth-wall-breaks-in-john-byrne-she-hulk-comics/

Cheers!
       
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 14, 2022, 01:13:41 AM

The Spirit--1940

Everybody writes in praise of Will Eisner's graphic innovations. The praise is well deserved! But sometimes it makes us overlook his gifts as a writer. The man was a master of the comic book short story. It's amazing how much plot and character he could pack into seven pages. Six pages rather, since the first page was usually a big splash image with a panel or two to get the ball rolling.

This story is a nice example of his craft. It's a simple story about two bad guys doing the right thing for once. But Simple Simon and Black Henry come across as believable people with little quirks that make them stand out from countless other comic book crooks. I like when Henry accepts the priest's invitation to come into the church, Simon protests, "Wait, Henry! I don't belong to this church!" and Henry replies, "So what? We're crooks!"

Using four tiers of tiny panels the anonymous Lady Luck writer generates roughly the same amount of space as the Spirit story. Unlike the Spirit story this one's a mess. The story could to have been about either Aunt Agnes or bumbling Inspector Hencastle. Putting them both in, then adding to that Lady Luck, the butler, and Inspector Hardy--heaven knows where he came from--results in a choppy story that tries to cover too much ground. Hencastle barely has anything to do. What he does do has no effect on the story. Aunt Agnes does several comic turns but never really tries to take over the investigation as she threatens to. In the end she's as extraneous as Hardy, who wipes his brow and bemoans the chaos. At least I think that's Hardy, since half the men in the story wear blue suits.

I'd wondered what everyone else was talking about when discussing the Mr Mystic episode. Now I know. What a weird downer of a story!! I'll have to hand it to Powell (or whoever wrote this) for getting rid of a continuing character by having her fall in love with Death, but I need to know what made Elena so susceptible to Death's charm despite her having spent a year calling Mr M "darling" and planning to marry him. He even saved her life by turning her into a bird, as you can see in the previous week's episode, which is available here on CB+. I guess that when you gotta go you gotta go...the following week Mr M "takes a vacation" during which he once more runs into Penny Douglas. Elena is forgotten and it's Penny 24/7 from then until the feature peters out three years later. My biggest question is why Eisner elected to run this macabre sendoff in the Christmas issue. Maybe it's the only finished story he had at hand.

Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 14, 2022, 02:25:30 AM
Schoolgirls' Picture Library #40

No surprises here, but it's an acceptable variant of the old "wrongfully disgraced" SPL plot. Plus it boasts some GDA (Good Dog Art).

The girls' comics sure did this trope to death. Usually, though, there was some effort put into making the wronged outcast seem like a bad guy. Here, the moment you see his handsome mug you know he's okay. The only question is the location of the missing dagger. The solution is a groaner, I fear.

I don't know who the artist is, but I've seen a lot of his or her work. Nothing flashy, but solid figures and a good sense of place. I gotta say though that Hector the dog has more personality than all the humans combined. The artist must have liked drawing animals. Witness the completely irrelevant squirrel closeup on our page 22.

Comes now the non-resident question period. Considering that the castle has no heat--the servant has to give Debbie a warming-pan to keep her from freezing in bed--as I say, considering this, Debbie spends an inordinate amount of time traipsing about the snowy battlements without a coat. Come to think of it, do kilt-wearing Scots not wear overcoats in freezing weather? As for haggis: I've never tasted a haggis but after studying up on it I think I'd actually like it. The dish has certainly become a running joke in some circles, rather like lutefisk was when I lived in the Pacific Northwest. Full disclosure: I've never tasted lutefisk, either, nor smelled it.

Before I started reading British school comics the only time I ever heard the word "jape" was in the title of a Philip K Dick novel, The Man Who Japed. But I never read that novel, only admired its Ed Emshwiller cover, so I'd no idea what the word meant. Schoolgirls' Picture Library writers love "jape." They use it over and over in this story. I suspect this is merely sloppy writing. The girls in one SPL story used the expression "to bowl [him] out" so often in a single story that it became tedious. I'm sure there's more than one way to say that in England. After all, these girls are the cream of educated British not-quite-womanhood.

Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: K1ngcat on December 14, 2022, 02:46:02 AM
The Spirit Xmas 1941

Eisner pulls out all the stops to bring us four tales of Xmas redemption. It's a bit hokey to have a kid's life saved by a Santa impersonator, but it's in keeping with the strip's overall Xmas message. As for Angroff the dictator, of course only an innocent child's wish could have influence over Santa Claus, who had obviously had Angroff on his naughty list for fifty years. We all know you can't kill Santa with bullets, but that doesn't stop the conqueror from having a complete change of heart. It took a minute for me to work out he was the third tramp, but gee willikers he must be a heck of a busker if he can raise the kid's cash overnight with a bit of fiddling. I do wonder how the King Hobo feels when he's sent back to the jungle after his Xmas with the Dolan family, in the same way I wonder how all the rough sleepers feel when the hospitality of Crisis at Christmas runs out. But it's a lovely gesture in keeping with the sentiments of the season, and a fitting place to end the story. Eisner does do human warmth extremely well.

Lady Luck- in lingerie, yet! Woo woo!  But a glimpse of a stocking is not that shocking (is it?) I'm familiar with Peecolo, though this is really not a good look for him. A bit of a damp squib ending, though I suppose that's intentional. Who are the mystery men who delivered the "bomb" though? The silhouettes aren't much of a clue.

Mr Mystic. Well at least the shot of Ebony's jacket behind the curtain gives the Spirit away. Mr M is out there in plain sight, it's only the back of Brenda Banks that keeps us guessing until panel 3 of the last page where a green shoe trips up a villain. In the end a wrong is righted and all is well. Is it only me that liked the drama of a Christmas Past better?

In reply to QQs observation that she took Ebony White for a talking monkey - when Jack Cole was asked to invent a pretty obvious Spirit copy, he came up with Midnight. Same hat, same suit and mask, etc., but Commissioner Dolan was replaced by a crazy inventor named Doc Wackey, and Ebony was replaced by - that's right, a talking monkey called Gabby. Like a lot of Cole strips, it takes a while for his art to mature, but once it gets going it's not so bad.  Here's one of my favourites:

https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=20032

All the best
K1ngcat
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 14, 2022, 02:49:13 AM
Quote
Before I started reading British school comics the only time I ever heard the word "jape" was in the title of a Philip K Dick novel, The Man Who Japed. But I never read that novel, only admired its Ed Emshwiller cover, so I'd no idea what the word meant. Schoolgirls' Picture Library writers love "jape." They use it over and over in this story. I suspect this is merely sloppy writing. The girls in one SPL story used the expression "to bowl [him] out" so often in a single story that it became tedious. I'm sure there's more than one way to say that in England. After all, these girls are the cream of educated British not-quite-womanhood.

I'm gratified to know that I am not the only one on whom that kind of English 'slang' grates.
It comes across as 'twee' ['affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint']
I have heard that unlike the US where writers are of various social backgrounds and work hard to get accepted, the UK publishing industry worked through networking. Traditionally most of the writers came from 'public' schools and got work through 'old boy' networking. So, that kind of language is part of their upbringing, and probably accurate for the stories they are telling, where the characters are usually girls from boarding schools.
Not the artists of course, who are more often than not European or South American.
       
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 14, 2022, 03:16:58 AM
The Spirit--1941

The Spirit story is a little jewel. Like many of Eisner's best stories The Spirit himself hardly has anything to do with it. Eisner's favorite themes--the underdog, personal redemption, the good present in the worst of us--are woven together with a dollop of irony.

This isn't so much the story of King Hobo's redemption as it is that of Angroff, the Wolf. Playing the page 7 reveal without dialogue or captions points up how poignant an image can be. To this day comics writers wrestle with the urge to over-narrate and over-explain. Eisner knew when it was best just to shut up. The "wise men's" arrival in Bethlehem on page 1 is another nice moment.

The Lady Luck story is a build-up to a joke that's revealed in the final panel. It almost comes off, but not quite. Nick Cardy cranks up the tension panel by panel so that we're sure the package contains a bomb. Consequently when the next-to-last panel explosion hits we're sure the cast has just been blown to pieces. It took me a moment to realize that the Santa-in-the-Box in the final panel is supposed to be the exploded "bomb." It would have helped to sell the gag if the final panel showed the cast coming out of hiding to see the Santa. The floating heads make it look like the lot of them are smiling down from heaven. Next week: a new feature!

The Mr Mystic story is cute. I like the way Powell shows just enough of the guest characters to play fair with the reader without blowing the joke. There's some nice drawing here. I really like Powell's drapery. His Spirit trench coat ranks right up there with Eisner's.

Thank you, Panther and Robb, for these holiday stories...something warm to curl up with if you don't have a blazing fireplace or a large dog. Except maybe for the "death of Elena" story. I hope the lady at least enjoyed a pleasant Christmas in...wherever she went.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 14, 2022, 03:28:58 AM
Quote
So, that kind of language is part of their upbringing, and probably accurate for the stories they are telling, where the characters are usually girls from boarding schools.

That raises an interesting question: would 1950s boarding-school girls make cricket references in everyday conversation? I thought cricket was the exclusive domain of The Lads.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 14, 2022, 10:13:01 AM
 Crash said,
Quote
would 1950s boarding-school girls make cricket references in everyday conversation? I thought cricket was the exclusive domain of The Lads.

Girls in boarding schools aren't interested in the lads?  or have brothers or fathers who play?
Do you mean to tell me that girls in the US wouldn't know Baseball terminology?
Cricket at that time was probably even more of a cultural fixture.
Also, in any case,
Quote
The first recorded match of women's cricket was reported in The Reading Mercury on 26 July 1745, a match contested "between eleven maids of Bramley and eleven maids of Hambledon, all dressed in white."[5] The first known women's cricket club was formed in 1887 in Yorkshire, named the White Heather Club. Three years later a team known as the Original English Lady Cricketers toured England, reportedly making substantial profits before their manager absconded with the money. In Australia, a women's cricket league was set up in 1894, while in South Africa, Port Elizabeth had a women's cricket team, the Pioneers Cricket Club.[6] In Canada, Victoria also had a women's cricket team that played at Beacon Hill Park.[7]
In 1958 the International Women's Cricket Council (IWCC) was formed to co-ordinate women's cricket around the world, taking over from the English Women's Cricket Association, which had been doing the same job in a de facto role since its creation 32 years earlier. In 2005, the IWCC was merged with the International Cricket Council (ICC) to form one unified body to help manage and develop cricket. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_cricket
I'm also sure women's cricket was also played in schools quite early.
Cheers! 
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 14, 2022, 10:57:58 AM
Quote
Do you mean to tell me that girls in the US wouldn't know Baseball terminology?

I'm thinking not so much of understanding the terms as using them in casual conversation. We're talking the 1950s, when the lines between "girls' stuff" and "boys' stuff" were more rigidly drawn. To use a baseball phrase as an example, I speculate that a boy would have been more likely to say, "You really knocked it out of the park!" when praising another boy than a girl would when talking to another girl.

In the Schoolgirls' Picture Library context I was curious whether "We've got to bowl him out before he can cause more harm!" is the sort of thing that British boarding school girls would say in everyday conversation.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Captain Audio on December 14, 2022, 02:04:30 PM
Whenever I see the Totle "Schoolgirls Picture Library" I picture a disreputable looking guy in a raincoat rushing home from a magazine stand hiding said book under his coat, then being massively disapointed when he opens it.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: K1ngcat on December 15, 2022, 01:50:19 AM
Christmas in the Highlands

In the matter of all Scottish inquiries I defer to our esteemed colleague paw broon. Do Scotsmen in kilts wear overcoats? What does haggis taste like? Ask the expert! Although my Father took me to visit the home of the laird of the Sutherland clan, and assured me my lineage entitled me to wear the tartan, I have no hands on experience of being a Scotsman.

I think the same applies to the writer and artist of this tedious tale, which exemplifies all that I rejected about British comics when I was a Marvel-worshipping teenager training at a London art studio. I agree that Hector has more personality than all the humans depicted herein, but I'm still not sure what breed of dog he is. Or why the picture that reveals the identity of the missing member of the Kilburnie clan has arrows and name tags attached, unless it was to cover for the inadequacies of the artist assigned.(it's okay, we can work out which one's the dog!)

It really encapsulates all the worst of UK comics at the time: the lack of imagination or inspiration in the plot and artwork, the overbearing wholesomeness, the dullness of the Black and White format, all were anathema to me at the time and to a greater extent still are. And yes, I'm as annoyed by the over-use of the word "jape" as everybody else, but I suppose the words "practical joke" were too long-winded? There's a reason Batman never had a foe called The Japer.

But (rant over) thanks for the Xmas offering, Panther. I enjoyed the Spirit sections and all the group discussion, I wait with bated breath for the next holiday selection.

All the best
K1ngcat
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Morgus on December 15, 2022, 03:57:43 AM
Geez, Q-Q, I almost forgot to say how much I envy someone who gets to see vintage Eisner for the first time. You wind up looking at a LOT of mediocre stuff as the years go by, and those first occasions reading an acknowledged master should be savoured.
Lucky for us, there is lots of his work that is available at a very decent cost. Sometimes, like this site, free. MOST libraries here in Canada and the US will stock COMICS AND SEQUENTIAL ART (1985, updated 1990) A lot of it comes from articles in THE SPIRIT magazine. You get the master taking you behind the canvas as it were, to tell you how it’s done.
Which brings us to THE SPIRIT magazine by Warren. They were  the guys who brought you CREEPY and EERIE and VAMPIRELLA magazine size black and white comics mom wouldn’t let you buy. They put out a magazine size collection of The Spirit from ’74 to ’76 and finished up with a colour SPIRIT special. REASONABLY priced.
Yes, yes, Denis Kitchen put out some reprints before those started, and Harvey comics (yup, home of Casper the Friendly ghost) did the same in the 60’s. But those magazines from Warren are usually better priced and on better paper IMHO.
Okay, Denis Kitchen ran Kitchen Sink Press, made comics and picked up THE SPIRIT MAGAZiNE and ran with it until the middle 80’s. Much better paper than a typical comic. Bigger too. After that folded, Kitchen ran THE SPRIIT beginning to end in standard comic book format, until ’92. First issues are in colour.
Tip; there is a SPIRIT JAM that he made for the magazine towards the end that has contributions from 50 artists. The comic series are usually around dirt cheap.
But you can get as expensive into this as you want. Wait until you look up the recent DC reprints. Have a defibrillator ready.
The CHRISTMAS SPIRIT stories have been collected and there are lots of anthologies you can get. He had Wally Wood working for him to do THE OUTER SPACE SPIRIT and it’s amazing.
This is simplifying the man’s work, but not by much. It will allow you to get a taste of his genius and have some fun at the same time.

Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 15, 2022, 05:01:05 AM
the Captain wrote;-
Quote
henever I see the Title "Schoolgirls Picture Library" I picture a disreputable looking guy in a raincoat rushing home from a magazine stand hiding said book under his coat, then being massively disapointed when he opens it. 

Try this Japanese mag.
Weekly Young Magazine
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/weekly-young-magazine-202302-03-no-2-3-2023/4000-959797/
No further comment?
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 15, 2022, 05:05:43 AM
Morgus,
my introduction to the Spirit was the two giant-size colour reprint comics that Harvey released, I think in the late  60's (?) At the same time they reprinted a Fighting American anthology, which was my introduction to that character.   
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: paw broon on December 15, 2022, 03:14:26 PM
The Spirit stories are so well done and hugely enjoyable.  Eisner's work is a feast for the eyes and, in these cases, a mood lifter.
The SPL has a lovely cover.  From time to time SPL came up with really good cover illos.
As for the story, well, it's pretty typical of the series and of the serials in many of the girls' comics and story papers of the time. Not sure about some of the art though.  That train, and the engine on the splash page, simply looks wrong. I have no problem with the use of jape and japers.  Not words I have often used but i accept them as my biased view is they were used by by privileged students at private school.
The haggis is a wonderful beast and I quite like a helping now and then.  Real or veggie?  Take your pick.  But I think the veggie version would be anathema to many Scots. As I also enjoy Stornoway black pudding and the occasional andouillette, I prefer the "real" haggis.
Women's cricket was a team sport in a number of British private (public) schools and nowadays women's cricket is very popular.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 15, 2022, 06:26:02 PM
But, Paw, you haven't addressed the most important question: do/did kilt-wearing Scots don overcoats in freezing weather or just brave the elements bare-legged?
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Robb_K on December 15, 2022, 08:30:54 PM

The Spirit stories are so well done and hugely enjoyable.  Eisner's work is a feast for the eyes and, in these cases, a mood lifter.
The SPL has a lovely cover.  From time to time SPL came up with really good cover illos.
As for the story, well, it's pretty typical of the series and of the serials in many of the girls' comics and story papers of the time. Not sure about some of the art though.  That train, and the engine on the splash page, simply looks wrong. I have no problem with the use of jape and japers.  Not words I have often used but i accept them as my biased view is they were used by by privileged students at private school.
(1) The haggis is a wonderful beast and I quite like a helping now and then.  Real or veggie?  Take your pick.  But I think the veggie version would be anathema to many Scots. As I also enjoy Stornoway black pudding and the occasional andouillette, I prefer the "real" haggis.
(2) Women's cricket was a team sport in a number of British private (public) schools and nowadays women's cricket is very popular.   


(1) Having been a great fan of Carl Barks' stories, as one of my main entertainments from the age of 3, and his most memorable character, Scrooge McDuck, having haggis being the Scottish money collector's favourite main dish, I HAD to try a haggis when I first stepped on Scottish soil on a trip there in 1964.  As a voracious eater, calorie fan, and lover of rich and spicy foods, I wasn't disappointed.  My host of the bed- and-breakfast style "guest house" where I stayed was a great cook, who made a haggis especially on my request.  It was very peppery, and rich, with a lot of taste, thanks to the suet.  By the early '60s we were eating less meat fat, and so lots of food dishes were less rich.  This reminded me more of the richer foods we ate during the 1940s and earliest '50s.

(2) As for the use of Cricket, or any sports-generated phrases by young or teenaged girls, or young women, I'm a bit skeptical.  I grew up in the ice hockey-mad atmosphere of 1940s and '50s Canada, where that was the "national sport" (over Lacrosse and curling), and was almost a "national pastime", similar to baseball's position in USA, and football (soccer) in The UK.  There were a lot less passive, and probably active entertainment alternatives back then, and so those national pastime sports had more impact and influence on popular culture than any individual sport or activity can possibly have now.  So, mothers and girls would have had a lot more exposure to those Number One sports, their teams, players, coaches, and even terminology of the game, even if the, themselves, didn't play the game.  I still have my doubts that more than a few, tomboy types, only among the upper class, private(public) school girls, who had the opportunity to play Cricket, actually used phrases generated from the technical aspects of that game, in regular daily speech, especially among themselves.  They might have used a few in jest or in jibes, when talking to boy cricket players, but otherwise, it seems not a thing girls do, in my experience.

In Canada, back in my youth, most of the boys played some form of youth hockey.  So, their entire families were automatically involved in that sport.  In addition, the fathers and boys were big fans of, at least, their local Juniors level team (ages 17 to 20), which was the highest pre-professional level, and virtually semi-professional at its highest playing level. And most of the male family members, and some mothers and daughters, as well, were fans of the local or nearest professional teams.  So, the female members of families had a lot of exposure to the sport.  in the 1950s, there were already a few ice hockey leagues for girls.  But they were only made up of tomboy-types, and the daughters of youth hockey coaches, or girls who had a lot of brothers, and played a lot shinny and pond hockey pick-up games, or their family had a backyard rink, like we did.

So, with all those possibilities of picking up hockey technical knowledge and terms, and watching their brothers and cousins play, and listening to "Hockey Night in Canada" on the radio, and watching it later, on TV, girls and young women had lots of chances to learn hockey terminology and cultural phrases that came from it.  Yet I don't remember any girls using hockey-generated phrases in normal conversations with each other.  And only remember a few using them for making a joke or jibe at a boy or young man, who was a hockey player, or big fan.  Or, they picked up a phrase from mass media, like "Keep your stick on the ice", which was the "calling card" of Red Green, who, in his TV show, played a Western Canadian, irreverent, clever, fun-poking, but lazy and incompetent pseudo back-country resident, who makes fun of the local hicks.  And even when girls DO use such a phrase, I'm guessing that it would only be directed at males, rather than when among even their hockey (or analogous cricket) teammates. 
In fact, I can't remember any of my sisters and female cousins, who played hockey on our rink, and who went to see their kin play official games, or sat and listened to the radio or watched TV games with the family, and knew the game well, and its terminology, and even phrases that crept into the general popular culture, ever using any of those phrases in conversation among the family or elsewhere.

I suspect that situation is similar with female cricket players.  Just an instinctive guess, that unless they are lifelong, dedicated olympics-level players, girls and women aren't likely to have that be such a pervasive priority in their lives to manifest that kind of impact on their normal speech.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: K1ngcat on December 16, 2022, 02:03:15 AM

Morgus,
my introduction to the Spirit was the two giant-size colour reprint comics that Harvey released, I think in the late  60's (?) At the same time they reprinted a Fighting American anthology, which was my introduction to that character.


My introduction to the Spirit was through IW, an issue featuring Mr Carrion and Dr Scalpel, those typically Eisner tales where the Spirit is an incidental character in his own adventures. But after that, as I tried desperately to find more Spirit stories, I was very glad to discover the two Harvey reprint compilations (and the Fighting American anthology that you mention, another landmark find!). The only part I ever took issue with was Eisner's new contribution, the origin of the Octopus as Zitzbath Zark. I'm still not sure I'm buying that, but I know he meant well!  ;)

All the best
K1ngcat
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 16, 2022, 05:33:39 AM
My introduction to The Spirit was through Jules Feiffer's The Great Comic Book Heroes. Feiffer really talked up The Spirit though as I recall (I haven't read the book in half a century) he made a couple of comments that confused me. I remember something about The Spirit never wearing socks. The sample story Feiffer reprinted was interesting but I couldn't figure the character out. Some time later I saw the second IW Spirit reprint [the so-called #12; we have it here], with a cover showing The Spirit hefting a robot. The inside stories were from the pedestrian non-Eisner period. Some decent drawing but hardly unique. I wasn't impressed and I wondered what the fuss was about. Then the two Harvey giants came out and I understood. "The Lorelei of Odyssey Road" knocked me out, but "Ten Minutes" completely sold me. It still stands as one of the best comic book short stories I've ever read. The second Harvey issue had a double whammy of "Plaster of Paris" and "The Barber," another superb short short. And then nothing. I had to wait years for reprints to start dribbling out.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Robb_K on December 16, 2022, 08:06:02 PM
The Christmas Spirit 1940 - Minneapolis Star Journal
I like this short story about "The Christmas Spirit" filling even the hearts of normally badly-behaved, negatively, antisocial, amoral criminals, to let them take a holiday off from crime, so that normal crime-fighters, like The Spirit, can also enjoy the holiday, not being needed for his normal work.  It is a clever way to sneak in a completely positive story for the readers around Christmas Time (when all people should, by being kind and considerate to all others, should, by doing that, realize that they should behave like that EVERY day of each year.

Eisner packed a lot into these 7 pages, by using three tiers of 3-Panel lines, totalling 54 panels - the equivalent of 9 pages of normal 3-Tier format.  For this lighthearted holiday story, he made his crooks petty thieves, rather than evil, hardened, violent dangerous gangster types.  So, they fit in well with his having them change their normal behaviour for this holiday story.  It was clever too, too connect their crime of depriving kiddies (like the bulk of this series' readership) from experiencing one of the major joys of this holiday - receiving gifts from generous, loving people.  So, by having these normally mean and sad characters experience the joy of giving, and having the joy of receiving handed back to the normally unremembered, unloved and forgotten receivers, the reader gets the subconscious feeling that maybe the two crooks will NOT go back to their sad, mean and selfish lives, and that maybe if enough selfish people, overburdened by the trials of life could experience such an epiphany, there is yet hope for The World.

It's a bit preachy, but more tolerable, expected, and even desired at this time of year, as a break from all the normally hard-edged entertainment.  The artwork is top-notch, and a little more comical than normal, and the colouring is excellent (to my taste) - bright and cheerful.  Eisner's attempt at tying to tie the regular characters into The Spirit's example of why he doesn't need to work on Christmas Eve (the story of the two redeemed crooks) by using the gift-giving party, is weak, as it seems out of place and just thrown in.  And I agree that the boxing kangaroo is too strong an idea, bringing too much curiosity about what will happen when Ellen opens the crate and let's the kangaroo out, which will immediately take the reader out of reflecting upon the story he or she just finished reading.  Denny Colt given Ellen a boxing kangaroo as her new bodyguard is a great idea, which is good enough to spawn a series of stories featuring her getting into trouble because of that Australian boxer.  Maybe he gets jealous when she is in the company of other males?

The Christmas Spirit 1941- Parkchester Review
This story about Three Tramps, but mainly the downtrodden, hardened, driven to crime, King Hobo, is similar, and yet different enough from the previous year's Christmas story, to be interesting.  Eisner's tying Bethlehem, Pennsylvania to the original Christmas story, along with it's well-known steel industry (main reason for the town's existence), and to guns made of steel, is an interesting added touch.  I like the added old-fashioned atmosphere produced introduced by the old-fashioned print font, and poetic style of the old-fashioned 1700s style English, used by the narrator.  And the story about Angroff, the military conquering dictator (obviously a shot at a poorly-disguised Adolf Hitler) becoming redeemed, is interesting, too.  And using that as a story told to King Hobo, ties the three-level, overall Spirit story connections together.  This one also has a preachy tinge to it.  But works, just the same, for the same reasons.  And the similarity of Angroff's desire as a youngster to be a street fiddler, but being kept from doing so by circumstances, to Adolf Hitler's wanting to become a great artist and being turned down by Vienna's prestigious art academy, is an added evidence of to whom this story of redemption points.  IF an evil character like Hitler, one of the most despised and feared characters in World History, can be redeemed, there is sill hope for Mankind.

Schoolgirls' Picture Library 40 - Christmas in The Highlands
This even more lighthearted story provides a break from the slightly preachy Spirit stories, although it has its own problems of being a little too obvious with pablum like "wholesomeness", attempting to appear like a crime mystery, and yet, having no real criminal.  This is very typical of the normal British Schoolgirl's Picture Library stories, not just their special Christmas Holiday editions.  The artwork on this one is good enough(not exceptional), and very pleasant to look at.  But the characters are VERY superficial, especially for a long 64-Page story.  And the attempt to manufacture a crime, criminal, and bad feelings among a family, when there is really none of that, and it is all based on a set of coincidences, and resultant misunderstandings, is easily seen through by the reader. 

The key problem is that the young man, Angus, would-be villain, and Morag's cousin, is so young, handsome, innocent, and friendly-looking, that the reader automatically KNOWS, without a doubt, that he cannot be the villain.  So, it is obvious that either there is no villain, or someone else stole the jewels.  But, as there are no clues given to the reader leading even to the possibility of there being someone else well into the story, as is normal for mystery story writers, it is obvious to the reader that the loss of the jewels was caused by circumstances, coincidences, and there was no robbery.

Hector's breed appears to me as not a pure breed, but a mixture of a type of Bloodhound, and another breed or two.

As to the men being bare-legged in sub-freezing temperatures, I tend to agree that they wouldn't have wanted to be outside in that wet and windy Scottish Highlands air in such cold for very long.  And I'm from sub-Arctic, Manitoba.  In that casual, non-formal, non official atmosphere, of The Kilburnie family, there was no need for them to do so.  Also, having been inside some old castles in Scotland in winter, and experienced that damp cold, outside of the main heated rooms, I doubt that they would walk around like that even inside, unless they had central heating which was warm enough to heat the entire inside area.  But to do that, the rooms nearest the source would be wayyyy too hot for me, even with no clothes on.  Believe me, I've experienced such terrible heat in mid winter in other peoples large homes (especially down in The USA, where they keep the insides of their homes, much much hotter than most Canadians do).  Ha ha!  That reminds me of when I lived in Eccles in Lancashire for a short while, and had to pop another half crown into my flat's heater pay box, to keep the inside temperature in my bedroom enough above freezing for me to get out from under my stack of blankets to go to the loo. 
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 16, 2022, 10:19:23 PM
Robb, excellent and thought-provoking review.
Quote
And the attempt to manufacture a crime, criminal, and bad feelings among a family, when there is really none of that, and it is all based on a set of coincidences, and resultant misunderstandings, is easily seen through by the reader.

In my life experience, the creation of rifts in a family, more often than not  can be traced to just that kind of 'coincidence and resultant misunderstandings' 
The missing, presumed stolen, object is what Hitchcock called a Macguffin.
Quote
The MacGuffin is an element which orders the structure of the narrative and motivates the characters to indulge in their activities on screen. Its presence ensures the Aristotelian continuity in narrative action and provides a causal link between corresponding events. However, the significance of the ‘MacGuffin’ is played down by Hitchcock. He insists that it is, ‘something that the characters worry about but the audience does not’.   

Alfred Hitchcock explains the vital narrative plot device 'The MacGuffin’
https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/alfred-hitchcock-the-macguffin-explanation/
Also, the mysterious figure in the distance who seems to disappear all the time, is a red herring, to make the reader think that there are two mysterious characters involved
When the 'young, handsome, innocent, and friendly-looking' young man is introduced, much later in the narrative, we know instinctively that whatever his involvement is, he has been wronged and will be vindicated in the end.
A standard [Cliche - ridden?] Narrative for these girl's magazines. [Girl meets mysterious nice guy [ rebel?] girl rescues said nice guy and stands by him?]     
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 16, 2022, 11:48:33 PM
Quote
the mysterious figure in the distance who seems to disappear all the time, is a red herring

The conversation now veers onto another irrelevant sidetrack.

Your comment reminds me of a mystery I've never solved. The ComicBook+ group mind may be able to help me! When I was a kid in the 1960s, local [American] TV consisted of three major networks which had all the current shows, and in the larger markets a handful of independent stations ranging from low-budget to dirt cheap. These latter filled the time between automobile and carpet commercials by playing old B-movies, which were syndicated in various packages. One of the best-known packages included all the famous Universal monster movies (Frankie, Wolfie, and Drac) with their endless sequels. It also contained a bunch of deservedly-forgotten one-shot monster and thriller B's.

I clearly remember one of these B-minus clinkers in which a mysterious stranger is constantly seen lurking about. He appears throughout the movie but never seems to take part in the story. At the end of the movie, all the loose ends are tied up except for this guy. In the final scene we see the mysterious man sitting in a car. He breaks the old fourth wall by addressing the camera, saying, "I bet you're wondering who I am. I'm the guy who wrote this picture!" Then he rolls up the car window, on which is painted "The End." The sound of my brother and I crying "Whaaaaat??" could be heard halfway across Snohomish, Washington.

I have never been able to identify this movie. ProfH? Panther? Anyone?
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Robb_K on December 17, 2022, 01:33:33 AM

Quote
the mysterious figure in the distance who seems to disappear all the time, is a red herring


Your comment reminds me of a mystery I've never solved.

I clearly remember one of these B-minus Sc-Fi clinkers in which a mysterious stranger is constantly seen lurking about. He appears throughout the movie but never seems to take part in the story. At the end of the movie, all the loose ends are tied up except for this guy. In the final scene we see the mysterious man sitting in a car. He breaks the old fourth wall by addressing the camera, saying, "I bet you're wondering who I am. I'm the guy who wrote this picture!" Then he rolls up the car window, on which is painted "The End." The sound of my brother and I crying "Whaaaaat??" could be heard halfway across Snohomish, Washington.

I have never been able to identify this movie. ProfH? Panther? Anyone?


Ha! Ha!  I remember the ending of that film very clearly!  And I was pissed that we never got to find out what part he played in the plot, until that revelation at the end.  I haven't thought about that since I saw that film on TV with my cousins near the end of the 1950s, and had the same reaction that you did.  I saw so many of those "C" Movies that, unfortunately, I can't remember which film it was.  I'd bet Prof H is our best hope.  Maybe you should put this question to him on CB+'s "Watcha Watchin' thread", where he is bound to see it, and respond quickly.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 17, 2022, 01:54:45 AM
The best forth wall story I know is from the stage.
Supposedly Ralph Richardson, (before he was a Sir?) was onstage in a play when he suddenly stopped, walked to stage centre, audience side, and boomed out,
"Is there a Doctor in the house?'
A Doctor duely responded and Richardson boomed out,
"Doctor, isn't this a lousy play!'    

cheers!
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 17, 2022, 02:25:05 AM
Schoolgirl Picture Library's Highland Romp

Jolly hockey sticks, what a smashing tale of chums japing each other on their Christmas hols. Every private schoolgirl dreams of her friend inviting her to the family castle for a spot of haggis and sword dancing. Though Hector was my favourite character too. My favourite line is on p. 24, where Debbie is called a 'modest old spoofer'. I have no idea what that is. And should we be wondering why Debbie and Jayne don't seem to be missing their own families two hoots over Christmas? I guess it's all too much fun skating on the moat to even give them a thought. I'm just sorry the artist didn't show Debbie thanking Angus in the time-honoured way promised on the last page.

Well, it was a bit corny and the mystery wasn't much of a mystery, but it was nice light holiday fare that I might have liked when I was about 9 or 10. By the the time I was 11 or 12, I was much more interested in what Archie and the gang were doing. They were way cooler. I'm not sure if we got these picture story magazines here in Australia. I do remember seeing the annuals that had illustrated short stories in them, and I've even picked up a few at second-hand stores. And K1ngcat, I am shocked to hear you preferred Marvel over these. What has a Stan Lee-Steve Dicko action-packed full-colour story got that this one doesn't? And I think The Japer would make a fabulous villain. (I enjoyed your rant  :D)

While the chums all seem like jolly good sticks, I did find it hard to relate to these types of stories in general, which all seemed to be populated by girls from private boarding schools who headed off for fabulous skiing holidays whenever the opportunity arose. I was more into The Secret Seven who solved actual mysteries. We have boarding school in Australia, of course, but my impression is that it's mainly students from rural areas who go there because they don't have a high school in their area (or because Daddy is an old boy at such and such a college and they have to follow in Daddy's footsteps). Am I right in assuming it was a more widespread practice in the UK during a certain time period?

Anyway, an interesting selection, and nice wholesome material that your auntie probably would have given you as a present.

Cheers

Quirky Quokka




Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 17, 2022, 04:29:14 AM
QQ said,

Quote
We have boarding school in Australia, of course, but my impression is that it's mainly students from rural areas who go there because they don't have a high school in their area (or because Daddy is an old boy at such and such a college and they have to follow in Daddy's footsteps). Am I right in assuming it was a more widespread practice in the UK during a certain time period?

QQ, I went to a boarding school in Australia - in QLD as a matter of fact,
both before - (Primary school) and after, (After year 10) I went to state schools.
Boarding schools are about class and getting trained to be able to take on a higher level of profession - with the aid, if possible, of networking. Your parents needed to have a certain amount of capital to send you there, although mine didn't. Never appreciated that at the time. There is actually a surprising mix of pupils. There were city pupils, pupils from Stations [Ranches]  far out west, and pupils whose families were located in places where there wasn't access to suitable education. We had one girl from an island in the Barrier reef and a boy whose family ran sideshows and so moved constantly around the country. At home, he had his own caravan. We all envied him that. Also there were people there on scholarships and assistance. From places like New Guinea. 
My cubicle - areas where we slept -was shared with 7 others who were all from New Guinea. that included 2 Anglos, (one of them Deutsch)  two Chinese ( children of NG business-people) and two ethnic New Guinea lads. The lot of them used to converse in NG Pigeon English!
We also had a number of American students.The only other Americans we normally saw were on TV. 
I went to a Co-ed boarding school. That was a plus.
Had to wear a culturally inappropriate English-style uniform. complete with tie and hat.   
Just to point out that while some of the cliches about boarding schools are accurate, the reality is a bit more complex.   
cheers! 
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 17, 2022, 04:50:54 AM

QQ said,

QQ, I went to a boarding school in Australia - in QLD as a matter of fact,
both before - (Primary school) and after, (After year 10) I went to state schools.
Boarding schools are about class and getting trained to be able to take on a higher level of profession - with the aid, if possible, of networking. Your parents needed to have a certain amount of capital to send you there, although mine didn't. Never appreciated that at the time. There is actually a surprising mix of pupils. There were city pupils, pupils from Stations [Ranches]  far out west, and pupils whose families were located in places where there wasn't access to suitable education. We had one girl from an island in the Barrier reef and a boy whose family ran sideshows and so moved constantly around the country. At home, he had his own caravan. We all envied him that. Also there were people there on scholarships and assistance. From places like New Guinea. 
My cubicle - areas where we slept -was shared with 7 others who were all from New Guinea. that included 2 Anglos, (one of them Deutsch)  two Chinese ( children of NG business-people) and two ethnic New Guinea lads. The lot of them used to converse in NG Pigeon English!
We also had a number of American students.The only other Americans we normally saw were on TV. 
I went to a Co-ed boarding school. That was a plus.
Had to wear a culturally inappropriate English-style uniform. complete with tie and hat.   
Just to point out that while some of the cliches about boarding schools are accurate, the reality is a bit more complex.   
cheers!


Thanks for sharing that, Panther. That must have been an interesting mix of people. As you can probably guess, I went to a State school. Some of my cousins lived on a property out west and only had a one-teacher school for primary school. They all boarded in Toowoomba when they went to high school, so I was imagining it would be similar for many. For them it was more a case of practicality. And I have a lot of lovely friends who went to private schools as day students. But I also recently came across another fellow who was sent to a boarding school to carry on the family tradition, and he found it a deeply scarring experience, so I guess everyone's situation is different and you're right that it doesn't always fit the stereotypes. I still wonder if it was more common in the UK. I have no experience other than all the UK TV shows and movies I've watched, so of course that view must be accurate.  ;)

Cheers

QQ
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Robb_K on December 17, 2022, 05:13:30 AM

QQ said,

Quote
We have boarding school in Australia, of course, but my impression is that it's mainly students from rural areas who go there because they don't have a high school in their area (or because Daddy is an old boy at such and such a college and they have to follow in Daddy's footsteps). Am I right in assuming it was a more widespread practice in the UK during a certain time period?

QQ, I went to a boarding school in Australia - in QLD as a matter of fact,
both before - (Primary school) and after, (After year 10) I went to state schools.
Boarding schools are about class and getting trained to be able to take on a higher level of profession - with the aid, if possible, of networking. Your parents needed to have a certain amount of capital to send you there, although mine didn't. Never appreciated that at the time. There is actually a surprising mix of pupils. There were city pupils, pupils from Stations [Ranches]  far out west, and pupils whose families were located in places where there wasn't access to suitable education. We had one girl from an island in the Barrier reef and a boy whose family ran sideshows and so moved constantly around the country. At home, he had his own caravan. We all envied him that. Also there were people there on scholarships and assistance. From places like New Guinea. 
My cubicle - areas where we slept -was shared with 7 others who were all from New Guinea, that included 2 Anglos, (one of them Deutsch) two Chinese ( children of NG business-people) and two ethnic New Guinea lads. The lot of them used to converse in NG Pigeon English!
We also had a number of American students.The only other Americans we normally saw were on TV. 
I went to a Co-ed boarding school. That was a plus.
Had to wear a culturally inappropriate English-style uniform. complete with tie and hat.   
Just to point out that while some of the cliches about boarding schools are accurate, the reality is a bit more complex. 
cheers!


Well, naturally, your experience at a modern boarding school that accepts students on scholarships, foreign students who aren't terribly wealthy, students whose families live too far away from ANY school capable of educating them at a proper level for their age group, mixed with some from privileged wealthy families, would be quite different from that experienced in traditional 19th and early 20th Century Public (public) boarding schools, where children of the wealthy, aristocratic or other privileged families made up the majority of the student body, or formed it exclusively.  Good that your school was co-ed.  Sorry that it was so formal that you had to wear a uniform.  I'm glad I could attend more informal city and suburban schools in Canada, The Netherlands and USA.  And I prefer the current Dutch education system, which is much more informal than USA's.  I really enjoyed teaching art in after school education programmes in Holland.  You had an interesting mix of fellow cubicle mates.  From everything I've seen about the British 'Finishing Schools" for the wealthy and privileged, I would guess I would have hated attending them, and would have had a miserable youth.  Glad I was able to stay with my own family.  At least, I would have been able to tolerate a situation like you had, in the looser, less strict times, with a lighter atmosphere.

You mentioned that there were 2 "Anglos" among those in your cubicle, from New Guinea, and one of those 2 was "Deutsch".  How can an "Anglo" be "Deutsch"?  Did Australians use "Anglo" in a broader sense, as a term for "White people" ("Caucasians")?
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 17, 2022, 06:23:21 AM
Robb,

My life experience should explain why the 'Billy Bunter' stories and their ilk, leave me cold.

cheers!
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Morgus on December 17, 2022, 11:16:41 AM
'Crash and robb k, the film, I think, is THE APE MAN. Bela Lugosi. Monogram. It's on youtube. see what you think.

Man, I tell you guys, those Harvey reprints of THE SPIRIT were a big influence. I only saw the COVER and they stuck with me. Never forgot it because it looked so much different from the usual Harvey stuff. So when Warren started their thing in the 70's, I grabbed those. Wonderful memories.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: paw broon on December 17, 2022, 05:08:36 PM
While I was aware of The Spirit many years ago it was the IW comics that I first really read of his.  They were ok - not great, but not bad.  As others have said, the Harvey issues did the business for me s well. I became a fan to the extent that my associates and I from aka Books and Comics managed to entice Mr. Eisner to come over to Scotland for our big comic con in Glasgow. If my memory actually worked, I'd tell you when that was.
Public (private) schools, they still exist in the UK and Scotland, quite a number actually. There have been scandals surrounding a few of them in recent years, bullying, drugs, abuse.
As for cricket, there were many clubs in schools for girls.  Currently, Some BBC cricket commentators are from women's cricket and Alex Hartley is at this moment in Pakistan commentating on the series of 3 test matches between Pakistan and England.
Crash, kilts and overcoats ;D Kilt jackets are a thing, and you have to have the right one.  But traditionally it would be long, thick woollen socks, bare knees and a kilt, no matter the cold.  But kilties might wear a big rain cape. Anyway, glad none of you can hear the racket that kilted pipers make in Edinburgh all year round.
The Spirit, look for Ten Minutes, but only if your emotionally up to it.  Isn't that claimed to be written by Jules Feiffer?  Or have I dreamed that.


Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 17, 2022, 10:14:58 PM
Quote
'Crash and robb k, the film, I think, is THE APE MAN. Bela Lugosi. Monogram

That's the one! Interesting to see how the scene compared with my 50+-year-old memory. I didn't remember that the starring couple interacted with the mystery man. I misremembered that the man faced left rather than right and that the "THE END" on the window had been painted sloppily with a brush. The man's final line, "Funny idea, huh?" seems to be the key to the whole thing. Somebody in the writers' room said, "You know what would be funny? What if--" and the rest is history. It suggests a certain contempt for the audience. Or maybe just contempt for the movie. Thanks for locating this. I can finally release a few memory neurons for other purposes.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 18, 2022, 02:48:00 AM
Here is the movie.

The Ape Man (1943) Bela Lugosi | Action, Drama, Horror Full Movie
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+ape+man+bela+lugosi

This movie was produced before the convention of having the writer credit be 'Cordwainer Bird' instead of the writers real name - to indicate that the writer didn't approve of the finished product.

Maybe this was a variation on that?
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Morgus on December 18, 2022, 07:20:34 AM
The film is part of a series of nine Bela did for Monogram. At their best, they are just SURREAL. At the top of my pick, you have BLACK DRAGONS where Japanese spies are made to look 'just like us' by plastic surgery and are being hunted down by Bela. BOWERY AT MIDNIGHT has Bela as a college professor/soup kitchen operator/gangland chief. VOO DOO MAN has Bela getting new brides from a helpful George Zucco's gas station. He can make your car conk out with a neat-o gizmo of some sort. I don't know if the writers had the audience in contempt, or if it was like when Big Daddy Bill Gaines and the gang made those EC comics to amuse THEMSEVLVES. Maybe a bit of both. But I CAN almost hear a writers meeting like crash suggests; "Hey, wanna know what would be fun??" The casts are always a surprise so I won't ruin it for you. (Tom Neal from DETOUR, John Carradine looking like he's having the time of his life, a pre-Lone Ranger Clayton Moore, Dave "Play it faster' O'Brian. Lots of B movie greats. The best seem to have either Wanda McKay or Joan Barclay as the lead ladies. Happy hunting.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 18, 2022, 08:39:46 AM
All nine of them are on YouTube with quite a few more Lugosi movies.
The one that intrigues me, and its link is saved for me to watch when I have time,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oetP5BY59tc 
Murder by Television (1935) BELA LUGOSI

The prints are reasonable, but they all look like they were saved from Television screens.

Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: gregjh on December 18, 2022, 01:28:25 PM
Well I really enjoyed the three tales in 'The Spirit'. The obvious theme was good being able to balance or overcome bad. The warm colouring and the brief but cogent storytelling was intriguing and different to the usual type of GA comic I enjoy. I know I've read the spirit before but I don't remember much about him. I also enjoyed his (very short) story in his own comic though.

Thank you for these choices TAP. They got me in the Christmas...Spirit. I will be enjoying my usual red wine and reading of Batman Noel on Chistmas Eve, when I will also return here to read more.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Morgus on December 19, 2022, 04:25:02 AM
A.P., MURDER BY TELEVSION isn't too bad, but like a lot of the serials that they made back in the day using TV as a plot element, they were a little shaky on how it all worked.
Another unique one is THE THRITEENTH CHAIR. One of those drawing room murder mysteries that are like a Tier Two Agatha Christie. You know, exotic locations and everybody in a tux. Tod Browning, the guy who did Dracula two years later and a lot of other neat films is behind the camera. It's a bit slow and clunky because it was early sound and everybody was figuring out where to stand and what to do, but it's worth a look. Bela got type cast as a horror hero, but could have been an exotic detective like Moto, Chan, or any of the rest.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 19, 2022, 08:51:12 AM
Hi all

Since I seem to be the only one who'd never read a Spirit comic, I thought I'd have a look at one of the regular ones. I went to #22 from 1950, and I can see what you're talking about in terms of stories and originality. But I have a couple of questions from the first story in the book:

https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=20425

The baddie is Sol Grundy. Is that the same Solomon Grundy who was a villain in the DC universe, or have they just re-used the name? I don't know much about him, but this story doesn't seem to fit. Also, The Spirit mentions that he has to get back to Central City. Is that the same Central City where the Silver Age Flash lives? I've just finished reading a volume of Flash comics I have from 1956-1960 and the name was fresh in my mind.

Cheers

QQ
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 19, 2022, 09:29:29 AM
QQ, the Spirit has nothing to do with DC continuity.
Even tho DC later brought the rights to the Quality characters, they didn't have the rights to the SPIRIT.
Eisner, who was a canny businessman probably owned the rights himself from the beginning.
The Spirit stories in the Quality comics would have been reprints from the Newspaper inserts.
Here are a few of the better ones.

The Spirit 22
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=20425

The Spirit 18
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19814 

The Spirit 20
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19817 

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: SuperScrounge on December 19, 2022, 11:11:13 AM
The baddie is Sol Grundy. Is that the same Solomon Grundy who was a villain in the DC universe, or have they just re-used the name?

Reused the name. IIRC Solomon Grundy was the title of a children's poem "Solomon Grundy was born on a Monday..."

Also, The Spirit mentions that he has to get back to Central City. Is that the same Central City where the Silver Age Flash lives?

Generic city name is generic.  ;) Central City was also the original city that Marvel's Fantastic Four was based in before it was made into New York City. Heck even DC used Central City a few times before they created the Silver Age Flash.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Morgus on December 19, 2022, 08:15:05 PM
It all reminds me of that line from BLAZING SADDLES. When Governor Lepetomane says to Hedley Lamarr; “What the hell are you worried about? It’s 1874. You'll be able to sue her.
A.P.: You want a fast tribute to the genius of Eisner? I would love to know the exact number of times the 3 covers for the collections you’ve posted have been used over and over. The effectiveness of art, huh?

By the way, can’t fail to mention P.S. magazine, The Preventive Maintenance Monthly magazine that Eisner did when he was in the army. It’s here on the site and is a joy to read. What to know what life was like for the American GI back in WWII? These give you a great look. The cover art you can stare at for hours.
Right up there with PRIVATE SNAFU training films that Chuck Jones made for the US army during the war.

Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 19, 2022, 10:42:56 PM
Morgus my man!
I chose PS magazine for a Reading Group slot some time ago. We had a good old chinwag about it!
Here tis!

CB + Reading Group - # 220 - P.S. Magazine 1
https://comicbookplus.com/forum/?topic=17475.0


Actually, its surprising how many of the golden age creators who were called up towards the end of WWII and Korea , ended up doing similar work - cartooning, magazine production, even map-making, for the services.   

Cheers!
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 21, 2022, 12:52:36 AM
Thanks Panther and SuperScrounge. I know DC continuity ranges between nonexistent and extremely convoluted - LOL - but was just wondering about the similarities. They've dug up quite a few old characters and names and have given them new stories.

And thanks for the links, Panther. I had already looked at Spirit #22, but will check the others.

Cheers

Nola
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: SuperScrounge on December 21, 2022, 11:05:38 PM
I know DC continuity ranges between nonexistent and extremely convoluted - LOL - but was just wondering about the similarities.

Yeah, there's a variety of reasons for that, multiple writers on the same character, writers & editors who don't think it matters because who's gonna buy every issue and pay attention to minor details. Also writers taking rejected scripts to another editor and rewriting a bit.

City names kind of amuse me as they can sound both specific and generic, Central City, Coast City, Big City, Empire City, Capital City, Metropolis, Smallville, etc., etc. TV Tropes has (or had) an entry called City of Adventure which pointed out how every superhero city tended to have certain features in common, a shipping port, a big lake, they are near the shore, the mountains and the desert, a lot of them have European style castles somewhere nearby (very big in Golden Age stories for some reason, I think I've read three Batman stories with a different castle near Gotham).

For me it's part of the fun.
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Morgus on December 22, 2022, 04:39:13 AM
Super; Maybe the best take on that whole 'city' shtick is how Springfield on The Simpsons always changes...

A.P: sorry I missed the PS magazine chat a couple of years ago. COVID was in high gear, and we were all working flat out. (In "reality" I'm a psych nurse...) But I enjoyed how he solved problems of putting a lot of info into very little space...and not getting cluttered, either. Was glad to see there's a book out on the subject now, it came up in the quarterly mag he did with Denis Kitchen.

Q.Q.: We used to have contests, my friends and I, and figure out WHEN we lost track of the DC or Marvel universe, or the biggest howlers they ever did.  It could go on all night. MAD magazine did a parody of musicals and had comic strip characters of every shape and size for the final curtain number. Continuity wise, the whole thing now reminds me of that.

Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: crashryan on December 22, 2022, 06:02:09 AM
Quote
the biggest howlers they ever did


There have been so many amusing foul ups in comics over the years, but one of my favorites is the Captain America (I think? It's been years) where Cap is involved in a knock-down drag-out fistfight with an enemy. Battered but unbowed, in the last panel of the page he says "Only ONE of us will leave this room ALIVE--"

[Turn the page--Cap attacks]

"...and it won't be ME!!!"
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 22, 2022, 06:52:44 AM
Quote
We used to have contests, my friends and I, and figure out WHEN we lost track of the DC or Marvel universe, or the biggest howlers they ever did.  It could go on all night. MAD magazine did a parody of musicals and had comic strip characters of every shape and size for the final curtain number. Continuity wise, the whole thing now reminds me of that.

DC has just about almost completed one more "CRISIS" reset of their 'Universe' - what's that? 5 times at least.
The writing of these things just gets worse and worse. And makes less and less sense.
Marvel has done about 3 EVENTS just this year alone, and they get duller and more uninteresting each time.
I may do an end-of-year sum-up post next week some time, so more then. 
cheers!   
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: Quirky Quokka on December 22, 2022, 08:24:43 AM


Q.Q.: We used to have contests, my friends and I, and figure out WHEN we lost track of the DC or Marvel universe, or the biggest howlers they ever did.  It could go on all night. MAD magazine did a parody of musicals and had comic strip characters of every shape and size for the final curtain number. Continuity wise, the whole thing now reminds me of that.


Morgus, SuperScrounge, Crashryan and Panther - I'm a late bloomer and only got into DC comic books a few years ago when I discovered a volume of early Superman comics in a bookstore. I loved it. Seems strange now, but it had never occurred to me that DC and Marvel had been making compilations of these old comics (and I didn't know sites like Comic Books Plus existed because I wasn't looking for them). I thought the only way to get these old comics was to pay a small fortune on eBay and similar, which I hadn't done.

I'm gradually building up a collection of compilations, mainly Golden and Silver Age DC, with an Ironman thrown in, and some one-off facsimile comic books that DC and Marvel have been releasing. So it's been a huge learning curve for me. For example, I only realised recently that there have been several Robins and that Nightwing is the original Robin grown up - LOL - so I was way behind. It doesn't bother me too much except when I find a graphic novel I like and then discover there's no follow-on. For example, I really liked 'Supergirl: Being Super', which collected the four comic books by Mariko Tamaki. I liked that version of Supergirl and wanted to read the next in the series, but there aren't any more by Tamaki.

It's great that different writers and artists bring different things to the characters, and I can understand why they may want to revamp some of the backstories and characters from earlier eras. But I don't like it when they keep reinventing the wheel and we have yet another spin on Superman's origin story.

But if you don't expect continuity and just go with the flow, it's dandy  :D

Cheers

QQ
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: K1ngcat on December 23, 2022, 01:53:31 AM

QQ, the Spirit has nothing to do with DC continuity.
Even tho DC later brought the rights to the Quality characters, they didn't have the rights to the SPIRIT.
Eisner, who was a canny businessman probably owned the rights himself from the beginning.
The Spirit stories in the Quality comics would have been reprints from the Newspaper inserts.
Here are a few of the better ones.

The Spirit 22
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=20425

The Spirit 18
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19814 

The Spirit 20
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19817 

Enjoy!


Thanks Panther I'd forgotten that CB+ hosted these gems featuring some of the best examples of Eisner's Spirit. A timely reminder, much appreciated.
All the best

K1ngcat
Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 23, 2022, 11:33:08 AM
Amazing what a little research will do.
Here is an article on Eisner and another Christmas Story
Will Eisner Returned to The Spirit After World War II Just In Time for a Christmas Classic
https://www.cbr.com/will-eisner-spirit-christmas-return-world-war-ii/

Here's another from right here.
A Christmas Spirit - a trilogy
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=39126   
and,

It seems that Kitchen Sink published a stand-alone collection of Spirit Christmas stories.
The Christmas Spirit
https://www.comics.org/issue/764838/
I'd like to get hold of that one!
Enjoy!

 

Title: Re: Reading Group # 286 - 2022-23 Christmas 2nd Installment
Post by: The Australian Panther on December 25, 2022, 11:15:18 PM
I'm only going to be concerned here with the Christmas theme.   
The Spirit (1941-12-28) - Parkchester Review - A trilogy.
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=39126

Eisner used this idea, telling a classic or well-known story in modern guise, more than once.
Lets just look at the first page,
The font creates the Christmas mood.
The top three panels introduce us to 'Bethlehem' and also move the story along and also introduce us to 'the three wise men' Presumably Hobos were still common in 1941.

The next three panels introduce us to the child king and from here we apparently digress.
Note - so far, the Spirit is not present.
The third story is the most interesting,  The dictator is reduced to his childhood and reforms.
Then everything begins to be tied together, the ex-dictator is one of the hobos and uses his Christmas gift to raise money to give the boy king a gift. And the boy king reforms and returns the money to the Spirit, finally in the tale.
Eisner was the master of the visual narrative, but makes it look so effortless that the reader takes it for granted.
Given the three stories were probably all written or plotted by Eisner, and published together as one unit, I like the way he gets all the characters together - like the cast of a play - on the last page, to wish the reader Merry Christmas.       
The Spirit (1940-12-22)
https://comicbookplus.com/forum/?action=post;topic=22909.50;last_msg=88707
Eisner pencils, Joe Kubert inks. This gives the work a quite different look.
The Christmas mood and exposure to poor kids in a church gives two crooks an attack of conscience - and again the Story ties in with the Spirit's actions even though he is entirely outside the narrative until the end. 
My thought is that we live in far too cynical times, I can't imagine anyone today publishing a story as optimistic as this.
The other stories, good as they are, don't tie into a Christmas theme.
I should have reviewed these in reverse order as they show how much Eisner had improved his craft in the intervening 12 months.
Schoolgirls' Picture Library 040 - Christmas in The Highlands
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=76870   
Not much I can say about this one that hasn't already been said.
It's what you expect from those English 'girls' comics from that period.
Your comments and reviews were all excellent and discerning.
I enjoyed it for what it is.
Good Cheer to all!