Comic Book Plus Forum
Comic And Book Related => Comic Book Plus Reading Group => Topic started by: The Australian Panther on December 25, 2022, 11:21:37 PM
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Robb being indisposed I asked Kingcat to make the choices for the next fortnight and he has chosen to stick with the Christmas theme
{here are my choices for Dec 26th:
Hi readers, while you're wondering what to do with the leftover turkey I'd like to squeeze in three final festive favourites!
Dell's Santa Claus Funnies #1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=29465
A traditional Night Before Xmas from 1900
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=72388
And a seasonal adventure with
Mary Marvel in Wow Comics #9
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=15788
Hope you enjoy them, and the rest of the Holiday Season, a Happy New Year to everyone
All the best
K1ngcat}
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Looks like an interesting mixed bag there, K1ngcat and Panther. Will look forward to getting into it.
Cheers
QQ
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Santa Claus Funnies and The Night Before Christmas
I'll talk about these two together, as there was an interesting comparison. The poem The Night Before Christmas is of course well-known. I had a picture book of it as a child, so this brought back some happy memories. The art on the 1900 book is exquisite, and I imagine gives a more faithful rendering of the traditional Santa Claus outfit? Perhaps some of our European friends can enlighten me about whether Santa's outfit resembles the national dress of any particular country? It looks Scandinavian to me. The colour plates in particular are beautiful, and Santa looks so real when he winks at the reader.
The version in Santa Claus Funnies is also quite good, but probably more typical of comic books from the era. Though there was one thing I picked up in the poem (in both) that I'd never noticed before. It specifically says that there was a miniature sleigh, eight tiny reindeer, and a little old driver (Santa). Why were they all so little? And Santa seems to be normal size in the art.
It was also interesting to compare the version of A Christmas Carol in the Funnies book with the version we read a couple of weeks ago. That latter one had some brilliant black and white art, and stuck more closely to the words of the original, but the one in Funnies probably fits the target age of the children better, with its colour illustrations and simpler language. And poor Tiny Tim is definitely dead in the future in this one, as opposed to that just being hinted at in the other one we read.
I also thought it was interesting to compare the Funnies as a whole to the other Santa books we did the other week. While Santa still appears, this one has a more traditional flavour with fairytales and legends, such as The Fir Tree (I felt sorry for him - sniff) and the tale of how the first Christmas tree came to be. The religious origins of Christmas are noted more explicitly, including lyrics from several Christmas carols. There were also more stories that had a moral, though there were some stories and poems that were just for fun. The art overall was quite good.
Also, since Jingle Bells was included in that book, I thought you might be interested to know that there is an Australian version of Jingle Bells with Aussie lingo. You can read it here.
https://www.flashlyrics.com/lyrics/bucko-champs/aussie-jingle-bells-60
Thanks for the selections, K1ngcat. I'm looking forward to the Mary Marvel one.
Cheers
Quirky Quokka
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Though there was one thing I picked up in the poem (in both) that I'd never noticed before. It specifically says that there was a miniature sleigh, eight tiny reindeer, and a little old driver (Santa). Why were they all so little? And Santa seems to be normal size in the art.
Funny, I've heard that line a million times and never stopped to consider it. It sounds as if the author back in 1823 conceived of Santa as an elf. Every illustration I've seen shows Santa human-sized. It certainly makes for better visuals and it avoids a sticky question: if Santa is a little old elf, why are the presents he brings full-sized? Do they expand after he sets them down? The Wikipedia entry about the poem is interesting. It discusses Clement Moore's inspirations for his concept of Santa. It also says there has been ongoing controversy about whether Moore or someone else wrote it. Here's a snippet:
The authorship of A Visit is credited to Clement Clarke Moore who is said to have composed it on a snowy winter's day during a shopping trip on a sleigh. His inspiration for the character of Saint Nicholas was a local Dutch handyman as well as the historic Saint Nicholas. Moore originated many of the features that are still associated with Santa Claus today while borrowing other aspects, such as the use of reindeer. The poem was first published anonymously in the Troy, New York Sentinel on 23 December 1823, having been sent there by a friend of Moore, and was reprinted frequently thereafter with no name attached. It was first attributed in print to Moore in 1837. Moore himself acknowledged authorship when he included it in his own book of poems in 1844. By then, the original publisher and at least seven others had already acknowledged his authorship. Moore had a reputation as an erudite professor and had not wished at first to be connected with the unscholarly verse. He included it in the anthology at the insistence of his children, for whom he had originally written the piece.
Moore's conception of Saint Nicholas was borrowed from his friend Washington Irving, but Moore portrayed his "jolly old elf" as arriving on Christmas Eve rather than Christmas Day. At the time that Moore wrote the poem, Christmas Day was overtaking New Year's Day as the preferred genteel family holiday of the season, but some Protestants viewed Christmas as the result of "Catholic ignorance and deception" and still had reservations. By having Saint Nicholas arrive the night before, Moore "deftly shifted the focus away from Christmas Day with its still-problematic religious associations". As a result, "New Yorkers embraced Moore's child-centered version of Christmas as if they had been doing it all their lives."
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Nice selections.
THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS was interesting with Santa wearing what looks like flags of emerging nations. From certain angles his hat almost resembles a bike safety helmet. A cautious Santa! Hard to believe the poem is 200 years old next year.
SANTA CLAUS FUNNIES features that Walt Kelly art I always dial up this time of year. Not Pogo, but very enjoyable.
And yeah, Q.Q., I always felt for the tree when I heard this one too. More than a couple of those fairy tales ended badly...The Little Match Girl comes mind. As a kid, I would always make a face and say; “And what was the POINT? The suffering seems pretty meaningless..” (The grown ups would just STARE...)
MARY MARVEL; sort of like a CHRISTMAS SPIRIT episode, huh? When they did the Brie Larson CAPTAIN MARVEL back in 2019, I remembered Mary. I always figured it was an accident of history (and copyright) that she wasn’t sucked into the Marvel universe whole. I ALWAYS wanted MAD to do a parody on those lines, where characters fade in and out of the plot due to copyright restrictions or change appearances altogether. We DID get POGO marching into NANCY with her yelling; “Help Sluggo, we’re being invaded!” The background details and the toys I found really neat to look at.
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Thanks for that extra info Crashryan. I now have visions of mini Santa with a bag of mini toys that expand on contact with the air, like some existing toys that expand on contact with water :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expandable_water_toy
And Morgus, don't even get me started on the poor little match girl. I remember it being included in a primary school reader. Saddest thing I've ever read. But in a strange way, maybe it one of the things that sparked my lifelong dislike of injustice.
Cheers
QQ
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Santa Claus Funnies and The Night Before Christmas
The poem The Night Before Christmas is of course well-known. The art on the 1900 book is exquisite, and I imagine gives a more faithful rendering of the traditional Santa Claus outfit? (1) Perhaps some of our European friends can enlighten me about whether Santa's outfit resembles the national dress of any particular country? It looks Scandinavian to me.
The version in Santa Claus Funnies is also quite good. (2) There was one thing I picked up in the poem (in both) that I'd never noticed before. It specifically says that there was a miniature sleigh, eight tiny reindeer, and a little old driver (Santa). Why were they all so little? And Santa seems to be normal size in the art
Also, since Jingle Bells was included in that book, (3) I thought you might be interested to know that there is an Australian version of Jingle Bells with Aussie lingo.
Cheers
Quirky Quokka
(1) Santa's outfit looks very much like traditional northern Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish clothing, and was the more traditional dress for him among The Scandinavians, Finns (both Suomi and Sami, and Karelians, too), and The north Germans. The miniature size of both Santa and his reindeer come from the blending of the old Northern European pre-Christian 12-day feasting and merriment celebration of Juul (Yule) for the Winter Solstice (return of The Sun), with the Christian celebration of Christ's birth, and later, the addition of Saint Nicholas giving gifts to the poor), mixed with the old Keltic and Germanic legends about the "little people", who left gifts for people who put up with their stealing and shenanigans, and "allowed them to steal food from their pantries" (later having a tradition for leaving food out for them to take and eat in the night).
(2) The legends of elves and dwarfs come from the distant memories of those much shorter peoples, who populated Europe before The Indo-European peoples arrived there, immigrating into Europe between 3,000 and 4,500 years ago. The former were shorter, probably because they ate less meat. And they may actually have been the hunter-gatherers who migrated there after the last ice age ended, from Africa and southern Spain, before The Anatolian Farmers first came 5,000 to 7,000 years ago, pushing them deeper into the forests, and into the mountains, and further west to unoccupied areas. So, these legends, told by word-of-mouth for a few thousand years had them end up as little people (elves and dwarfs), who lived in forests, under rocks or in underground caves and burrows, and made raids on the farmers' homes only at night, stealing food.
(2) When the Christian missionaries wanted to convert the pagan Northern European peoples to their religion, they had to allow them to keep their most important traditions and holidays. So, they were allowed to keep their (most important) winter solstice feasting holiday and Yule Log tradition, and they also mixed that together with commemorating the birth of Christ (2nd most important event in Christianity to his sacrificing himself and resurrection), and the later addition of Greek Priest (St. Nicholas) giving gifts. Giving gifts was something that could match the Keltic and Germanic traditional legends that "The Little People" gave gifts to farmer families at night while they slept, making shoes for them, cleaning their Non-sleeping rooms, sewing/mending their clothing, and so, the farmers reciprocated by leaving food for them.
(2) So Santa Claus (Sinterklaas, Father Christmas) was an elf. Because he was so important, he also had to be big. But, in the earliest few hundred years of the North Europeans' time as Christians, he was an elf, and so, was small. He also had to be smaller than a full-grown man to come down a chimney flue (but he was later made to be too fat to it down that opening. Carl Barks's theory on how he performed that trick was demonstrated in his 1949 "Walt Disney's Christmas Parade#1" story "A Letter For Santa", in which the jolly old elf demonstrates how he shrinks himself into his tiny size to fit in the chimneys. It is interesting that the large bag of toys he carries also shrinks by the same proportions. After coming out of the fireplace, he springs back to his bigger self. I assume that Little Santa and his shrunken reindeer fly from village to village in their smaller state, so as not to scare airplane pilots! ;D Here's his revelation:
(https://i.ibb.co/SQC2M4d/Shrunken-Santa.jpg)
I find it interesting that The Finns and Sami people have a tradition of "The Yule Man" - or "Father Christmas" carrying his gifts on a sled or sledge, pulled by a goat, rather than reindeer, despite the Suomi and Sami and Karelian peoples being among those few in The World who have domesticated that animal, and use it for transportation, and as a beast of burden. Here's some evidence:
(https://i.ibb.co/fF65vwm/Juli-Finland-C.jpg)
(3) Because Australia has its Christmas celebration in the heat of Summer, I've always guessed some of Christmas' non-religious songs must have had some or all of their lyrics changed to reflect those differences from the original northern hemisphere Anglo cultures' versions. And now I see the proof in The Aussie version of "Jingle Bells", and I am not disappointed! Thanks Quirky!
I love the artwork and colouring in "The Night Before Christmas". They are excellent. I grew up reading such early 1900s books with engraving-style illustrations. That's really nostalgic for me.
I like the "Santa Claus Funnies' " version of "A Christmas Carol". The artwork, and choice of scenes from Dickens' original book are very good. I don't care all that much for the semi-religious or totally religious stories.
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Was busy the last week. Now catching up.
Santa Claus Funnies 1
Santa Claus In Trouble
North of the North Pole? Does the writer even understand that the North Pole represents the exact point of north on the globe? You can go south of the north pole, but not north. The pole is where north ends.
Jingle Bells
Okay art.
The Night Before Christmas
A nice illustration of the poem.
O Christmas Tree
Nice two-page spread.
The Fir Tree
It's always odd to see stories where trees should be glad to become Christmas trees. Truthfully it's the stuff of a horror story. ;) But that wouldn't make for a happy little children's story. Okay, if bittersweet story.
Silent Night! Holy Night!
Nice illustration.
A Christmas Carol
This seems familiar. ;) Tiny Tim says "Good bless us all!" Shouldn't that be God instead? Well, the story was rushed because of the length, but they seemed to hit the important bits.
Lord Octopus Went to the Christmas Fair
Bwha? What a bizarre title. Ummm... okay. Weird premise, but the writer embraced it and it worked.
The First Christmas Tree
Interesting story. On the one hand I was reminded of the old legends of gods disguising themselves as travelers to find good people, then I remembered that one way that Lutheranism diverged from Catholicism was using stories of the Christ child (Kris Kringle) instead of Saint Nicholas.
The First Noel
Okay art.
Santa Claus and the Mouse
Odd little poem, but okay.
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Q.Q.: We watch THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD during the holiday season and play ‘Spot the Stars’. Lots of fun. But it also supplied me with a great story of injustice for you. (Now, first off, we have to say that I have been told this story could NOT have happened, but...a guy who used to work for United Artists thinks it DID...SO...Lay your bets and take your chances...) Japan has, like, a 2 per cent Christian population. subsequently, the idea of Jesus rising from the tomb was seen as The Original Surprise Ending. Audiences got really mad as this Nice Man was killed and very relieved when they got to the plot twist.
BUT...
A group came to Untied Artists and wondered if they could reshoot one scene. Where Pat Boone appears as the angel at the tomb. They explained they thought the angel should be happier. More joyful. They suggested Little Richard. After all, didn’t Pat Boone sing Little Richard songs? It might even get Little Richard to do a Japanese tour...a highly desirable thing in the eyes of some promoters.
There is no record of United Artists reaction to this idea. The ending has not been changed.
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The Night Before Christmas
Beautiful illustrated version.
Oddly enough I realized I've been misnaming one of the reindeer for most of my life. I always thought it was Donder and Blitzen, not "Dunder and Blitzen".
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I've seen Donder, Dunder, and Donner. Donner was the version I learned as a kid.
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The Night Before Christmas
Oddly enough I realized I've been misnaming one of the reindeer for most of my life. I always thought it was Donder and Blitzen, not "Dunder and Blitzen".
Scrounge, what you learned was, no doubt, from an American local tradition, based on a Plattdeutsch (northwest German dialect), as the Hochdeutsch (Standard German from 1870 to present) would use:
Donner und Blitzen,
While standard (national) Dutch uses: "donder en blicksem",
and standard Swedish uses: "dunder och blixt",
and standard Old Frisian and Old English used: "tonger en wjerljocht" (so, the English Father Christmas tradition must be a very recent phenomenon from the same era as the adoption of burning the Yule logs and placing gifts under the Christmas Tree, brought over from Germany by Queen Victoria during the early mid 1800s, as opposed to the Angles, Frisians, and Lower Saxons bringing over their traditions during their immigrations to Britain during the 400s to 600s AD. So, these German and Germano-British traditions came to North America with mostly Northern German, Dutch, Swedish, and Norwegian immigrants from the 1600s to about 1900.
So the famous poem actually reads: "Donner and Blitzen" - taken from the official national German language (which didn't exist before 1870, except as a small regional dialect in east-central Germany, when there was no single German nation, but only many German political sovereign states.
But "Donder en Blitzen" would be a correct translation of "thunder and lightening" in several northwest German Plattdeutsch dialects. So, for someone who learned to speak and understand "German" in a town in The Dakotas, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, or Illinois, and heard that poem, would probably "hear" "Donder en Blitzen", thinking that the speaker, speaking quickly, and casually, dropped the "d" in the normal casual and lazy, less formal slang, which happens naturally in the evolution of languages (which is why no foreigners can understand Danish, because they've steadily dropped most of their consonants over the past 300 years).
Crash, you learned it correctly from the poem.
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Hi guys. Just checking in, we've been busy "entertaining" all the last week, but I'm glad to see you've all been getting on okay without me butting in. Thanks to you for helping solve the mystery of the shrinking Santa, and special thanks to Morgus for the apocryphal tale about the Angel at the Tomb. Little Richard, eh? I'd love to have seen a gay black angel pounding a piano and singing a song about sodomy ! :o
Looking forward to your reactions to the Mary Marvel tale
All the best
K1ngcat
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Wow Comics 9
The Night Before Christmas
Why is Mary calling the woman who raised her Mrs. Bromfield instead of mother or mom?
Page 12, panels 3 & 4. Love those two panels.
You'd think the wisdom of Solomon would have kept Captain Marvel from telling the crook that Mary is his kid sister. Also wasn't she his twin sister or is that a later revelation?
Not bad.
Last Ship From Marseilles
Not bad.
The Mystery of the Make-Believe Mastermind!
Not only does Mr. Scarlet lose his slot as the lead of Wow Comics, his alter ego loses his job as special prosecutor. Hmmm... While it's an interesting twist to have a hero whose alter ego has to worry about making money I'm not sure it really makes for the best stories.
Down Under
Different.
Spooks
Well, that's a bizarre concept. Since DC now owns Fawcett's characters maybe they should team him up with Kid Eternity and Deadman?
The Terrific Toy
Sometimes in old comics it seemed like they made someone a "superhero" solely because superheroes sold. Commando Yank seems like one of these. There is no reason why he wears a mask and he doesn't do anything that wouldn't appear in a normal war comic. Otherwise okay.
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I've seen Donder, Dunder, and Donner.
Sounds like a reindeer law firm. ;)
"For my latest Santa cartoon, I'm being sued by Donder, Dunder, and Donner!" ;)
Scrounge, what you learned was, no doubt, from an American local tradition, based on a Plattdeutsch (northwest German dialect), as the Hochdeutsch (Standard German from 1870 to present) would use:
Donner und Blitzen,
While standard (national) Dutch uses: "donder en blicksem",
and standard Swedish uses: "dunder och blixt",
So the famous poem actually reads: "Donner and Blitzen" - taken from the official national German language
Seems like a lot of people telling and retelling (& printing and reprinting) this poem tended to go with the version that seemed right to them.
Reminds me of years ago I was reading an article submitted to my club newsletter (I'm the editor) and I came across the word "illusive" & I thought they had misspelled elusive, then I remembered I had run the spellchecker over the article when I opened the document, so I pulled out my dictionary and learned a new word.
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(1) Santa's outfit looks very much like traditional northern Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish clothing, and was the more traditional dress for him among The Scandinavians, Finns (both Suomi and Sami, and Karelians, too), and The north Germans. The miniature size of both Santa and his reindeer come from the blending of the old Northern European pre-Christian 12-day feasting and merriment celebration of Juul (Yule) for the Winter Solstice (return of The Sun), with the Christian celebration of Christ's birth, and later, the addition of Saint Nicholas giving gifts to the poor), mixed with the old Keltic and Germanic legends about the "little people", who left gifts for people who put up with their stealing and shenanigans, and "allowed them to steal food from their pantries" (later having a tradition for leaving food out for them to take and eat in the night).
Thanks for all of that extra info, Robb, including the Karl Barks' explanation. Lots of interesting history there.
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Santa Claus In Trouble
North of the North Pole? Does the writer even understand that the North Pole represents the exact point of north on the globe? You can go south of the north pole, but not north. The pole is where north ends.
The Fir Tree
It's always odd to see stories where trees should be glad to become Christmas trees. Truthfully it's the stuff of a horror story. ;) But that wouldn't make for a happy little children's story. Okay, if bittersweet story.
A Christmas Carol
This seems familiar. ;) Tiny Tim says "Good bless us all!" Shouldn't that be God instead? Well, the story was rushed because of the length, but they seemed to hit the important bits.
The First Christmas Tree
Interesting story. On the one hand I was reminded of the old legends of gods disguising themselves as travelers to find good people, then I remembered that one way that Lutheranism diverged from Catholicism was using stories of the Christ child (Kris Kringle) instead of Saint Nicholas.
Good pick-ups on the stories about the North Pole and the quote from a Christmas Carol, SuperScrounge. I missed those. Thanks for the info about the First Christmas Tree too.
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Q.Q.: We watch THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD during the holiday season and play ‘Spot the Stars’. Lots of fun. But it also supplied me with a great story of injustice for you. (Now, first off, we have to say that I have been told this story could NOT have happened, but...a guy who used to work for United Artists thinks it DID...SO...Lay your bets and take your chances...) Japan has, like, a 2 per cent Christian population. subsequently, the idea of Jesus rising from the tomb was seen as The Original Surprise Ending. Audiences got really mad as this Nice Man was killed and very relieved when they got to the plot twist.
BUT...
A group came to Untied Artists and wondered if they could reshoot one scene. Where Pat Boone appears as the angel at the tomb. They explained they thought the angel should be happier. More joyful. They suggested Little Richard. After all, didn’t Pat Boone sing Little Richard songs? It might even get Little Richard to do a Japanese tour...a highly desirable thing in the eyes of some promoters.
There is no record of United Artists reaction to this idea. The ending has not been changed.
Morgus, I love movie trivia, so let's assumed this happened. It's always fun to speculate on what would have happened if different people had played certain roles. I can't imagine Little Richard as the angel. Would be a lot of jumping and screaming going on, but fun to watch. Shirley Temple was the first choice for Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. I love Shirley, but can't imagine anyone but Judy in the role. And a few people were touted for Casablanca before Humphrey Bogart got the nod, including Ronald Reagan. Can you imagine?
And that's interesting about the ending in Japan. One of the Christian missionary organisations had a film that just came to be known as the Jesus movie. It was dubbed into many languages and dialects, and they sometimes showed it in places where people hadn't even seen a movie. Apparently they had to play it once so people could marvel at the technology and then again so they could get the message. A surprise ending indeed.
Thanks for the info.
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Actually, I believe that round the beginning of the 20th century when films were taken to places like African or Amazon villages, and the films were silent and black and white, the audiences often could not decipher what they saw on the screen as images of people.
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Wow Comics 9
The Mystery of the Make-Believe Mastermind!
Not only does Mr. Scarlet lose his slot as the lead of Wow Comics, his alter ego loses his job as special prosecutor. Hmmm... While it's an interesting twist to have a hero whose alter ego has to worry about making money I'm not sure it really makes for the best stories.
Yes, SS, I'm curious about Mr Scarlet. I know it's standard practice to have someone unusually talented to do the first issue or two before handing the feature over to lesser mortals, but this is strange. Kirby's origin story shows Mr Scarlet as quite edgy, he plainly doesn't mind threatening the use of deadly force, he has a strange quasi-romantic or perhaps sexual relationship with his secretary, and he doesn't try to disguise his moustache when in costume, even though it's a dead giveaway. But within a few issues this rather dark vigilante is saddled with a kid sidekick by the embarrassing name of Pinky and all of a sudden he's not so scary any more.
I have a feeling that Fawcett found him a bit too dark for their otherwise very kid- friendly comics and revamped him accordingly. What is interesting to me is the whole situation you describe in this issue of Wow presages the whole Marvel style of having comics heroes with "real people" problems. Here, he's not much different to a young Peter Parker, having trouble finding a job and wondering where his next meal 's coming from. Maybe the timing for that approach just wasn't right, but I find the comparison interesting.
BTW, the wisdom of Solomon never stopped Captain Marvel from making all kinds of bonehead mistakes, perhaps Solomon wasn't quite so smart as we've been given to believe!
Anyway thanks for your input, it's always a pleasure!
All the best
K1ngcat
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Sorry it's taken me a while to get to the Mary Marvel comic, and that was the one I was most interested in. Oh well. Life happens :)
WOW COMICS
Inside cover
Interesting that they were so concerned about parents approving of these comics, that they had Eleanor Roosevelt and Rear Admiral Byrd on the editorial board. And that was before the official comics book code came in.
Mary Marvel
This was a fun comic, and certainly does reflect the innocence of the time. Can you imagine what we'd say these days if dodgy old Uncle Marvel tried to get into cahoots with a teenage female orphan? Also a bit of an interesting parallel with the early stories of Supergirl in which she lived in an orphanage for a while so people wouldn't know of her existence (or blow Superman's cover). They were both pretty lonely. Also interesting that they ask the readers if they would like Uncle Marvel back? Lots of readers must have written in because he did become part of the Marvel family, and I guess he provides some added humour.
Commander Yank
Okay, I know it's wartime and that the Japanese have bombed Pearl Harbor, but I found it hard to get past the political incorrectness (e.g., Japanese described as 'buckteeth monkeys"). Also, there was condemnation at the thought that the Japanese would round up innocent Americans who had once lived in a little American settlement in Tokyo, but Americans did the same with innocent Japanese on American soil. Okay, so I guess a difference is that the Americans put them in internment camps, whereas these comic book villains are going to toss them into an active volcano, so that is worse. On a side note, there's a beautiful novel about Japanese Americans in the wake of Pearl Harbor called 'Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet' by Jamie Ford, that is well worth a read if you're interested in that part of history. Tells the story of a Chinese-American boy who falls in love with a Japanese-American girl, not long before her family is sent off to an internment camp. As for Commando Yank? Well, he's no Captain America. Not crazy about this hero.
That's as far as I've gotten so far.
Cheers
Quirky Quills
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Well, my thoughts on these selections.
First, thank you Robb for your informative comments on traditional Scandinavian clothing and the significance of evles and dwarves in Christmas traditions. I have learned a lot.
However,
they had to allow them to keep their most important traditions and holidays. So, they were allowed to keep their (most important) winter solstice feasting holiday and Yule Log tradition
I don't think it was a matter of 'allowing' anybody to do anything, when conversion happened it was the leaders of the converted peoples who made the decisions themselves.
They only changed what was necessary to change and integrated already existing traditions into the Judeo/Christian world view.
And there are other vestiges of the original cultures still extant.
The days of the week, for one example
Sunday, Monday [Moonsday], Tuesday [Tyrs day] Wednesday [Woden's day] Thursday [Thors day] Friday Friggs day] Saturday, [Saturns day]
Roman gods become Nordic weekday names
The Romans named the days of the week after the Sun and the Moon and five planets, which were also the names of their gods.
The gods and planets were Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.
In the Nordic countries, the Sun (Sunday) and the Moon (Monday) also became the first two days of the week, and the Roman gods became four of the Nordic gods with similarities:
Mars became Tyr (Tuesday), Mercury became Odin (Wednesday), Jupiter became Thor (Thursday) and Venus became Frigg (Friday). Saturday came outside the system: The Norse form 'Saturday' means 'hot water day' - which can be translated as 'washing day' or 'washing water day'.
https://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/professions/education/viking-age-people/the-names-of-the-weekdays
And thanks Robb for the Barks visual quotes.
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Dell's Santa Claus Funnies #1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=29465
Santa Claus in Trouble (12 pages)
The Art and Story-telling are excellent, but the story is too wordy and that spoils it.
This is the standard pre-Christmas story - someone is out to spoil/delay/destroy Christmas. Will Santa make it?
The Night Before Christmas
Nice Work! A lot of good detail in the art and good colouring too.
O Christmas Tree
Was Clement Moore the artist on this one too? Geat visuals.
The Fir Tree (8 pages)
Credits Script: Hans Christian Andersen (credited) | Pencils: Walt Kelly | Inks: Walt Kelly
Good combination of creative spirits. There is always something melancholy about Hans Anderson's stories, but Walt Kelly does a good job of it.
Silent Night! Holy Night!
Excellent Visuals again. Not something you would see in a comic today. Unfortunately.
A Christmas Carol
Another adaption. Good, but not outstanding.
Lord Octopus Went to the Christmas Fair
Walt Kelly, artist.
High quality filler.
The First Christmas Tree (6 pages)
Don't know anything about the origins of this story, but it fits well here.
The first Noel
No artist credited.
Santa and the Mouse
I find myself wondering what inspired Emile Poulsson to write this?
Did he have a stocking with a hole in it when he was a child?
This is a high quality effort of its time, done with a lot of love.
cheers!
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A traditional Night Before Xmas from 1900
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=72388
I haven't got much to say about this that hasn't already been said,
Great choice Kingcat, thanks for posting it.
Do we have any idea who the artist was?
On one page we have a vertical signature whiich I can't make out, which seems to read NOELL TO(?)S, on another we have just N.T.
Anybody know?
cheers
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First, thank you Robb for your informative comments on traditional Scandinavian clothing and the significance of evles and dwarves in Christmas traditions.
However,
they had to allow them to keep their most important traditions and holidays. So, they were allowed to keep their (most important) winter solstice feasting holiday and Yule Log tradition
I don't think it was a matter of 'allowing' anybody to do anything, when conversion happened it was the leaders of the converted peoples who made the decisions themselves.
They only changed what was necessary to change and integrated already existing traditions into the Judeo/Christian world view.
And there are other vestiges of the original cultures still extant.
The days of the week, for one example
Sunday, Monday [Moonsday], Tuesday [Tyrs day] Wednesday [Woden's day] Thursday [Thors day] Friday Friggs day] Saturday, [Saturns day]
Roman gods become Nordic weekday names
The Romans named the days of the week after the Sun and the Moon and five planets, which were also the names of their gods.
The gods and planets were Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.
In the Nordic countries, the Sun (Sunday) and the Moon (Monday) also became the first two days of the week, and the Roman gods became four of the Nordic gods with similarities:
Mars became Tyr (Tuesday), Mercury became Odin (Wednesday), Jupiter became Thor (Thursday) and Venus became Frigg (Friday). Saturday came outside the system: The Norse form 'Saturday' means 'hot water day' - which can be translated as 'washing day' or 'washing water day'.
https://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/professions/education/viking-age-people/the-names-of-the-weekdays
And thanks Robb for the Barks visual quotes.
My point was that the existing Christian authorities wouldn't have gotten the members of the various pagan tribes and peoples to convert to Christianity, unless they found a way to entice them to enter the fold by "allowing" pagan holidays and festivals to be continued to be celebrated, under the "guise" of Christianity, and The early Christians even changed the dates of their holidays to match those of the most important pagan holidays, when there still wasn't total agreement among the leaders of The Early Church in the various different parts of The Roman Empire. Later, in several different countries, Church authorities became very harsh with their flock, when they backslid into old pagan ways, which were not traditionally accepted by The Church in the earlier days. I believe that the institution of Sainthood was partly begun to incorporate the worship or showing high reverence for people in a community's past, or, at least, taking the place of worship of heroes from the past. Christ's birthdate (which was originally believed to be in April, or at least, some time in spring) was changed to The Winter Solstice, because that was generally the most important holiday among pagan peoples. The Resurrection was set at Passover, because that was the most important holiday for The Judaens (Jews), and Christianity was a fringe Jewish sect. The Catholic Church tolerated The Aztec and Maya peoples' celebrating The Day of The Dead and in Mexico, El Dia De Los Muertos and its following celebration day were matched to the Catholic All Saints Day and its following, All Souls Day. That was during the time that The Spanish Inquisition was torturing blasphemers, and any Spanish Empire subjects who were not following the Spanish Catholic rituals perfectly, sliding back into pagan practices, or Jewish , or Moslem rites, after converting, so as to remain in Spain and its territories and colonies, instead of being banished to Moslem territory in Africa or Asia, or being murdered by he authorities if staying without officially converting. A similar leniency that was given to new converts in Mexico, was shown to The Scandinavians, and Slavs, at least, during the early conversion periods. Yes, it is true that later, the individual national churches of each country tolerated the pagan traditions being woven into a blending the Christian traditions, knowing that was the only way to procure mass conversion of their nations' populaces.
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Interesting that they were so concerned about parents approving of these comics, that they had Eleanor Roosevelt and Rear Admiral Byrd on the editorial board.
Fawcett wasn't the only comic company with experts. I know All American had a panel (including the Wonder Woman author) & I'm pretty sure other companies had them as well.
I suppose one wonders if there was a 'price' to the various experts appearing on these approval boards. I know William Moulton Marsten was 'allowed' to create Wonder Woman for All American Comics. I think Pearl S. Buck was on DC's group and she created some comic stories.
And that was before the official comics book code came in.
There were actually comic codes before the 'big' one in 1954 that applied to most of the publishers.
Also a bit of an interesting parallel with the early stories of Supergirl in which she lived in an orphanage for a while so people wouldn't know of her existence (or blow Superman's cover).
*snicker* Otto Binder was the creator of both Mary Marvel and Supergirl. After the DC/Fawcett lawsuit DC hired Binder to work for them. Superman editor Mort Weisinger told Binder to give Superman a female cousin & Binder felt Mort had to know he had created Mary Marvel, but he never asked Mort about that.
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Mary Marvel in Wow Comics #9
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=15788
Since this was Kingcat's Christmas post I'm going to concentrate on the Mary Marvel story.
But I have two other comments to make.
1/ The relationship between the 'Golden Age' and the "Silver Age' and later, never ceases to confuse me.
If national/DC eventually got the rights to the Fawcett characters, how did Marvel end up, courtesy of Roy Thomas, I think, as per usual, with a character called 'The Phantom Eagle' ?
2/ It also never ceases to amaze me how many later concepts can be seen as rehashes of something first done in the 'Golden Age'. So, 'Spooks' to me, covers much of the same conceptual ground as DC's Deadman.
Also, in the Additional Information section, there are no script or art credits, even tho, under the Mr Scarlett story, it states, 'Plot and art credit revision per Will Murray in Alter Ego #157 (March 2019).' Huh?
So, Mary Marvel!
It seems this is Mary's first headline story outside of a Captain Marvel comic.
I like her SHAZAM gods, Senena, Hypolyta, Ariadne, Zephyrus, Aurora, Minereva, [Grace, Strength, Skill, Fleetness, Beauty, Wisdom]
So, Billy is Graceless and not beautiful? Just kidding!
Why is Mary calling the woman who raised her Mrs. Bromfield instead of mother or mom?
I think this is adequately explained by the exchange between the Butler and Mary. [Panels 3 and 4 on page 2]
My issue with logical continuity here, is that the relationship must have been good, not many foster parents would have been happy about an entire orphanage being invited to their home on Christmas eve, without them being asked first. But I'm nit-picking.
I'm also curious that while the child Billy becomes an Adult with the rank of Captain, Mary stays a girl, and is just Mary. Wonder what the thinking was there?
Basic story - bad guys spoil Christmas for Children, good guys foil their evil plans.
It annoys me that they 'broke the forth wall'; by having Cap and Mr Scarlett come to the rescue and say 'Merry Christmas'! to the reader. Mary didn't need them. I suspect any little girls reading this would have been proud of how tough and confident she was.
But, on this same last page of the story, there are suddenly 4 men waving at the reader. I would say these are meant to be the editorial creative staff.
It was instructive [makes me a little sad] to see how this somewhat accurate depiction of a pre-adolescent young girl has been changed to something altogether different in current depictions of Mary Marvel
This was a fun comic, and certainly does reflect the innocence of the time.
Exactly QQ!
This Post was KIngcat filling in for Robb, who couldn't make it.
So, I'm keeping the schedule and tomorrow I will post something quite different and Robb [or whoever he chooses] will have the next slot!
Cheers!
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1/ The relationship between the 'Golden Age' and the "Silver Age' and later, never ceases to confuse me.
If national/DC eventually got the rights to the Fawcett characters, how did Marvel end up, courtesy of Roy Thomas, I think, as per usual, with a character called 'The Phantom Eagle' ?
DC licensed the rights to the Marvels in the '70s, other Fawcett superheroes were also licensed later that decade (because apparently a writer used them in a 3-part (https://www.comics.org/issue/30279/) JLA/JSA (https://www.comics.org/issue/30382/) story (https://www.comics.org/issue/30483/) without seeing if they had permission first. Whoops!)
Sometime in the late '80s or early '90s DC outright bought the rights to the Fawcett characters.
As for Roy Thomas, well he's a fanboy and if he couldn't use the original characters he would just reuse the names of old characters. As any trademarks to those names had probably lapsed reusing a name wouldn't be a problem.
Also, in the Additional Information section, there are no script or art credits, even tho, under the Mr Scarlett story, it states, 'Plot and art credit revision per Will Murray in Alter Ego #157 (March 2019).' Huh?
The GCD is transitioning from text-based credits to link-based credits and for some reason the names on the links don't carry over to here. There are credits on the GCD page.
Script: Henry Lynne Perkins (plot); ? (script)
Pencils: Binder Studio
Inks: Binder Studio
I'm also curious that while the child Billy becomes an Adult with the rank of Captain, Mary stays a girl, and is just Mary. Wonder what the thinking was there?
I'm not positive, but I think the idea was that Captain Marvel was supposed to be a separate person & not a grown up Billy. This idea seems to be used in a later story where Zeus' aim is off and he keeps missing Billy and hitting other people and they become Captain Marvel, not a super-powered version of themselves. It would explain why the other members of the Marvel Family (Captain Marvel Jr., Mary Marvel, & the Lieutenants Marvel) become super-powered versions of themselves as there is no super-powered individual to take their places.
I don't think this idea was ever mentioned, if it is even right, so most people just assumed the Big Red Cheese to be a magically aged up Billy, something that I think was canonized in DC's Kingdom Come mini-series.
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Mary Marvel in Wow Comics #9
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=15788
Basic story - bad guys spoil Christmas for Children, good guys foil their evil plans.
It annoys me that they 'broke the forth wall'; by having Cap and Mr Scarlett come to the rescue and say 'Merry Christmas'! to the reader. Mary didn't need them. I suspect any little girls reading this would have been proud of how tough and confident she was.
But, on this same last page of the story, there are suddenly 4 men waving at the reader. I would say these are meant to be the editorial creative staff.
It was instructive [makes me a little sad] to see how this somewhat accurate depiction of a pre-adolescent young girl has been changed to something altogether different in current depictions of Mary Marvel
This was a fun comic, and certainly does reflect the innocence of the time.
Exactly QQ!
Panther, on reading your review, I suddenly realised that I had read the wrong comic altogether. I had downloaded this comic, but also another Mary Marvel one previously. I obviously clicked on the wrong one to read. Oh well. At least the one I read included the dodgy Uncle Marvel. Put it down to a Christmas brain fade. Looking forward to your selections.
Cheers
QQ
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Interesting that they were so concerned about parents approving of these comics, that they had Eleanor Roosevelt and Rear Admiral Byrd on the editorial board.
Fawcett wasn't the only comic company with experts. I know All American had a panel (including the Wonder Woman author) & I'm pretty sure other companies had them as well.
I suppose one wonders if there was a 'price' to the various experts appearing on these approval boards. I know William Moulton Marsten was 'allowed' to create Wonder Woman for All American Comics. I think Pearl S. Buck was on DC's group and she created some comic stories.
And that was before the official comics book code came in.
There were actually comic codes before the 'big' one in 1954 that applied to most of the publishers.
Also a bit of an interesting parallel with the early stories of Supergirl in which she lived in an orphanage for a while so people wouldn't know of her existence (or blow Superman's cover).
*snicker* Otto Binder was the creator of both Mary Marvel and Supergirl. After the DC/Fawcett lawsuit DC hired Binder to work for them. Superman editor Mort Weisinger told Binder to give Superman a female cousin & Binder felt Mort had to know he had created Mary Marvel, but he never asked Mort about that.
Thanks for all of that info, SuperScrounge. I didn't realise the connections between Mary Marvel and the creation of Supergirl. Also interesting that William Moulton Marsten was on one of the editorial boards, as he turned out to be a bit dodgy as well.
After reading Panther's review, I realise that I had read the completely wrong issue of Mary Marvel. I had downloaded another one previously and accidentally read the wrong one. So if my review didn't make sense, that's why. :D
Cheers
QQ
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Well it's past midnight and I see the Panther has already uploaded his choices for reading group #288, so there's nothing left for me but to sign off on this one.
Sorry I haven't been around as much as I'd hoped, it's been a busy and unpredictable holiday period chez moi, I'm just glad to see that everyone found something to enjoy in my seasonal selection. I certainly did.
On the subject of Captain Marvel, I agree with the Scrounge, I feel that the Captain was an entirely separate entity who took the place of Billy Batson after the word of power was spoken, but the two shared an awareness of each other's existence and memories. There are issues where Billy and The Captain share conversations with one another. This interesting phenomena was explored by Alan Moore in the comeback story he wrote for UK superhero Marvelman (basically a Captain Marvel rip off for L.Miller & Sons publications ) and his alter ego Mickie Moran. Mickie forgot his word of power and aged, but the Marvelman identity stayed the same as ever when he was recalled.
As for Mary Marvel, my favourite story is her origin, which is in Captain Marvel #18 https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=15858
and IMHO is surprisingly feminist for it's time. But I was going for an Xmas theme, I hope you didn't mind. I don't know who the four figures in the last panel are, and I'm not jumping to any conclusions!
Anyhow, thanks again to all of you for your participation and all the interesting facts you've brought to light, and I hope you have a good 2023.
All the best
K1ngcat
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Santa and the Mouse
I find myself wondering what inspired Emile Poulsson to write this?
Did he have a stocking with a hole in it when he was a child?
This is a high quality effort of its time, done with a lot of love.
Not sure why the author wrote it, but it appears that Emile is a typo of Emilie. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilie_Poulsson) Interesting woman.
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I read the Wow Comic with Mary Marvel's Christmas story and Mary Marvel's origin story in Captain Marvel, because I had never read it before, only having read a couple Captain Marvel and Superman and Batman stories in that genre in my entire lifetime (that determined that I wouldn't like "superhero stories"). The Christmas story was very expected, being the standard comic book Christmas story for children, that the local community's planned (charity) special holiday celebration and toy giving for underprivileged (usually orphan home-based) children is almost ruined by the toys or donated money for the party and toys purchase is stolen by the story's villains.
Because that story plot was so expected, this story was a bit boring to me. Had I been given the assignment of writing that story, which required that same scenario/basic theme and plot, I'd have been determined to "jazz it up" as much as possible. The best way to do that would be to use Will Eisner's tactic of making the villains interesting, by developing their characters much more than a normal "Cops vs. Robbers" plot, by using an unusual character trait or event in their pasts that makes their turn to a life of crime understandable, and makes them more "Human" in the eyes of the reader. Of course, that presages that the villains will most likely "be redeemed" at the end of the story, possibly voluntarily giving back the toys or toy money (after "seeing the light"), or by being caught, made to feel guilty, and then feel much better when they see the kids enjoying the party food and their received gifts.
As to Mary, and her newfound powers, I have the same problem that I have with Billy Batson becoming Captain Marvel, being pure magic, with no attempt even trying to use some subterfuge of pseudoscience to cloud over the obvious, at least to readers that don't think too deeply (as writers like Carl Barks did effectively). I have big trouble believing that simply enunciating the word, "Shazam", brings super strength and ability to fly (2 unrelated occurrences), and for Billy, it also matures him to a fully-grown man, while for Mary, it only provides her those 2 powers, but does NOT change her body physically, or her level of maturity. And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people. Actually, once the secret would get out, it would spread to virtually every non hermit Human, and Earth would become a planet of superstring, flying, practising "magicians" (superheroes and super villains).
That scenario leads to my problems with the original creator of Captain Marvel (C.C. Beck?) not having had explained exactly how The Gods decided to bestow these powers upon Billy Batson (why it was pre-ordained), and also upon his sister (later cousin?) Mary, to avoid the problem of any other Humans deciding totter "Shazam", and empower themselves. And what is the connection of that wise sage, who informed Billy of his "birthright", to the ancient gods? And is he an ancient immortal being, who lives in the sky (Valhalla?), or is he a present mortal, who lives in an old, abandoned subway train tunnel, beneath Central(New York) City? I would have liked those things explained in some way. Maybe there could have been a flashback to a meeting of The Gods, in which they have the gods and goddesses and heroes (half-mortal and half-human), who make up the "Shazam" anagram, donate their powers to the anagram's utterance in some visual magician's rite of magic (perhaps mixing a potion in a large cauldron?), with a ritual tossing of some powders representing those "powers", attributes, and skills. That event would be shown in a very dramatic splash panel, occurring in the black of night, illuminated by dramatic lighting from only the fire under the cauldron. Perhaps the ceremony could have had those gods speaking in Old Norse, Old Latin, or Old Greek (depending upon their particular cultural origins, and given asterisks, and whose text is translated to English in footnotes at the bottom of the page (which was done in Carl Barks' stories).
As to the idea that Billy Batson and Captain Marvel are two different beings, bringing up the question of whether or not they can exist in the same physical dimension at the same time (and react with each other as different beings) brings about a big additional problem. I would say it is a LOT safer to not go there. That later (DC) story in which that happens, opened up a big can of worms.
The bold action of NOT using some kind of pseudoscience to "cloud over" for the reader such problems of using pure magic, is what makes it impossible for me to enjoy "Superhero"-style comic book stories, because as a scientist, and a realist (even at the tender ages of 5 or 6 and above), would take me out of the story flow, to ask WHY? Whereas, in stories by Carl Barks, and H.G. Wells, and Jules Verne, and other classic writers, who used (1) either a general non-scientists', slightly educated instinctual guesses as to the reasons for things appearing a certain way, or (2) using pseudoscience to make non-understandable occurrences or known false assertions seem plausible, would allow me to stay within the story flow, and enjoy the reading simply for its entertainment value.
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And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people.
There's an amusing THUNDER Agents story in which agent Dynamo, who gains super strength when he twists a dial on his belt, was unable to activate the belt because villains had restrained his hands. Afterward the agency makes the belt voice-activated, so that it turns on when Dynamo speaks a "magic word." He chooses a word unlikely to be uttered in daily conversation, "Excelsior." However the bad guys notice that Dynamo yells "Excelsior!" before going into action and they figure it out. They record Dynamo saying the magic word and whenever the hero shows up and says "Excelsior" to turn on his belt they play the recording and the belt shuts off again.
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I have big trouble believing that simply enunciating the word, "Shazam", brings super strength and ability to fly (2 unrelated occurrences), and for Billy, it also matures him to a fully-grown man, while for Mary, it only provides her those 2 powers, but does NOT change her body physically, or her level of maturity. And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people. Actually, once the secret would get out, it would spread to virtually every non hermit Human, and Earth would become a planet of superstring, flying, practising "magicians" (superheroes and super villains).
This type of thing has more than once later been used in plot devices.
As to the idea that Billy Batson and Captain Marvel are two different beings, bringing up the question of whether or not they can exist in the same physical dimension at the same time (and react with each other as different beings) brings about a big additional problem. I would say it is a LOT safer to not go there. That later (DC) story in which that happens, opened up a big can of worms.
Roy Thomas, in his original MARVEL version had his Captain Marvel click two wrist bands together and change places with another human being, Rick Jones, who had his own story and relationship to other Marvel characters.
CC Beck, in particular, was primarily intent in writing stories for young children, while people like Kirby and Eisner and even Stan Lee were from the beginning aiming at an older audience, since their primary influence was the Newspaper comic strips which were aimed at a general audience. Mum, Dad and the kids all read Flash Gordon and Popeye.
Beck hated what DC did with the Fawcett characters.
[Robb, I keep forgetting that you would be largely unaware of what happened to these and other characters during the 60's and up to the present day.]
Comic book heroes and funny animals alike are fantasy, and like the wizard of OZ, it doesn't pay to look too close. It's the stories that can be told once the premise is established that is the point of all fiction.
Science?
I love science fiction but that's always built on a series of assumptions that are taken for granted.
If more logical and believable. Asimov never wrote about the science behind the construction of a Robot, just about the possibilities of living in a world of Robots that could think for themselves. Robert Heinlein wrote about things that were logically impossible ['By His bootstraps'] for example, to stretch our imagination and get us to think. Verne? Is it really possible to build a gun and fire men in a bullet to hit the moon?
Wells? The fantasy world that he landed in - which was an allegory - and which is logically impossible anyway - is the point of the story - not writing about how a Time machine might work.
If you have all the money in the world, and you want it to grow - you invest it - you use it - you buy things with it - You don't hoard it in a giant safe.
How do a bunch of criminals walk around in groups with masks on and wearing prison striped shirts, cause massive destruction constantly and not get arrested?
How do Donald or Micky survive economically? Donald can't hold a job and both of them are constantly Journeying all over the world doing everything but earning money.
Do Huey, Dewey and Louie ever go to school?
Whether the original premise is logical is irrelevant.
There is a phrase used in Science Fiction, 'Willing suspension of disbelief'
So if I have a creator and storyteller as good as CC Beck, Jack Kirby, Gardener Fox, Lee Falk, Carl Barks and the like, they allow me to 'willingly suspend my disbelief' I do so and enjoy their story-telling. I'm here on CB+ because of a lifetime of admiring their talent and craft.
The only issue is when there are jarring inconsistencies in the world envioronment in which they tell their stories, and here we are talking about the differences between Billy Batson/Captain Marvel and Mary Batson/Mary Marvel. But they don't stop me enjoying the stories. What stays with me about the Mary Marvel story, is the sense of innocence that comes across. Bearing in mind, that this character is an orphan living with foster parents who has only just found her brother. In a modern comic that premise would make her a tragic figure. Hmm, there are the elements here that you could use for a variation on a Christmas Carol!
Cheers!
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And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people.
There's an amusing THUNDER Agents story in which agent Dynamo, who gains super strength when he twists a dial on his belt, was unable to activate the belt because villains had restrained his hands. Afterward the agency makes the belt voice-activated, so that it turns on when Dynamo speaks a "magic word." He chooses a word unlikely to be uttered in daily conversation, "Excelsior." However the bad guys notice that Dynamo yells "Excelsior!" before going into action and they figure it out. They record Dynamo saying the magic word and whenever the hero shows up and says "Excelsior" to turn on his belt they play the recording and the belt shuts off again.
Clever plot device by the writer. Clearly, the engineers who designed the belt used voice recognition technology to activate the belt's workings to provide his super strength and ability to fly, and other powers (IF he has any). So, that leaves the choice open to decide to make the powers "magical", OR, to provide some "pseudo-scientific" explanation for the belt providing a temporary gigantic surge adrenalin from the user's adrenalin gland, allowing him super strength (but only in short spurts, otherwise, past the safe time limit, he'd be in danger of suffering a heart attack or stroke). THAT benefit/risk dichotomy would provide an interesting plot element, making every use of the belt more dramatic and interesting. AGAIN, pointing out why, to me, more realism and some connection to the real World and things with which people can identify, is much more interesting and entertaining to my taste.
Did the origin story for Agent Dynamo explain why only Agent Dynamo's voice can activate the belt? Was the belt explained as having been engineered by scientists (e.g. a special Government weapons development laboratory)? Or was all that left unexplained, or explained as being a "magic belt", or gifted to him from Space Aliens with higher technology, or a time traveller from the future?
Can Agent Dynamo fly on his own? I'd rather have that not be a magical superpower, but have him use some type of "jet pack".
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Comic book heroes and funny animals alike are fantasy, and like the wizard of OZ, it doesn't pay to look too close. It's the stories that can be told once the premise is established that is the point of all fiction.
Science?
I love science fiction but that's always built on a series of assumptions that are taken for granted.
If more logical and believable. Asimov never wrote about the science behind the construction of a Robot, just about the possibilities of living in a world of Robots that could think for themselves. Robert Heinlein wrote about things that were logically impossible ['By His bootstraps'] for example, to stretch our imagination and get us to think. Verne? Is it really possible to build a gun and fire men in a bullet to hit the moon?
Wells? The fantasy world that he landed in - which was an allegory - and which is logically impossible anyway - is the point of the story - not writing about how a Time machine might work.
If you have all the money in the world, and you want it to grow - you invest it - you use it - you buy things with it - You don't hoard it in a giant safe.
How do a bunch of criminals walk around in groups with masks on and wearing prison striped shirts, cause massive destruction constantly and not get arrested?
How do Donald or Mickey survive economically? Donald can't hold a job and both of them are constantly Journeying all over the world doing everything but earning money.
Do Huey, Dewey and Louie ever go to school?
Whether the original premise is logical is irrelevant.
There is a phrase used in Science Fiction, 'Willing suspension of disbelief'
So if I have a creator and storyteller as good as CC Beck, Jack Kirby, Gardener Fox, Lee Falk, Carl Barks and the like, they allow me to 'willingly suspend my disbelief' I do so and enjoy their story-telling. I'm here on CB+ because of a lifetime of admiring their talent and craft.
The only issue is when there are jarring inconsistencies in the world envioronment in which they tell their stories, and here we are talking about the differences between Billy Batson/Captain Marvel and Mary Batson/Mary Marvel. But they don't stop me enjoying the stories. What stays with me about the Mary Marvel story, is the sense of innocence that comes across. Bearing in mind, that this character is an orphan living with foster parents who has only just found her brother. In a modern comic that premise would make her a tragic figure. Hmm, there are the elements here that you could use for a variation on a Christmas Carol!
Cheers!
As I stated above, everything doesn't have to be consistent with the latest scientific theories for me to accept them as "realistic". Fifty to 100 years after that point, there are new theories to take their place, sometimes, espousing the exact opposite of the previous theory. My difference from Superhero and magic fans is just in the degree of "disbelief" I can tolerate, and still stay in the flow of the story (e.g. It is much easier to jar me out of "living in the story" than it is for Superhero, Science Fantasy, and purely magical stories' fans.) And, in addition, I am helped by attempts to "disguise" story happenings that are deemed impossible based on current scientific theories, but are seemingly possible or plausible by trying to keep the reader from thinking about them too deeply, using pseudo-scientific explanations. And, I also accept futuristic scenarios that can't automatically be ruled out by the laws of physical science, that instinct tells us MIGHT be possible in the future, without having any idea of the technology that could make that scenario possible (i.e. Verne's prediction of a rocket to The Moon, or a submarine vessel that could travel completely underwater, with oxygen pumped into its water-sealed cabins, for people to breathe, or self-energising mechanical robots, who are also self-aware, without understanding the technology which could make them work.)
I need something from my own experience in real life with which to relate. Something that is unexplained, and left to assume is total magic, is much less satisfying to me than being able to gloss over something that is impossible, because it seems like it "might be possible", because I can imagine that it might be possible in the future because of future technology, or has been made "palatable" or less obvious through author's use of a pseudo-scientific explanation. Also, a funny pseudo-scientific explanation, used by comical scientist, fake scientists, an professor characters, can add some wonderful, silly, ridiculous, and farcical characters to comedy stories, while helping to cover up the otherwise jarring unrealistic aspect of the plot, which might take the reader out of the story flow.
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Did the origin story for Agent Dynamo explain why only Agent Dynamo's voice can activate the belt? Was the belt explained as having been engineered by scientists (e.g. a special Government weapons development laboratory)
The first issue of THUNDER Agents (the whole run is on CB+) opens with a four-page prelude that gives a cursory "origin story." T.H.U.N.D.E.R. was one of those acronym agencies popular in the Man from UNCLE days. In a "remote mountain lab" they discover several gimmicks left behind when bad guys stormed the place and killed an inventor who'd been creating superscientific gadgets for the good guys. Each gadget gives its user some superheroic ability. The belt changes the wearer's molecular structure, giving him super strength and invulnerability. Other gadgets granted invisibility, super mental powers, and such. Once this was out of the way the back story was seldom mentioned. It was just a formality to get the superhero ball rolling.
The THUNDER Agents were largely the creation of Wallace Wood, who never took superheroing very seriously. It's obvious the stories' universe wasn't thought through in advance. Take for example the main villain, The Warlord, leader of a global villainy. In early issues he is spoken of (and once drawn) as being human, but later we learn he was one of a race of bald, green-skinned "subterraneans." Almost all the stories were simple, usually running 8 to 10 pages.
In the context of the time--the late 1960s--THUNDER Agents was something of a throwback, ignoring the trend toward longer stories, more characterization, and issue-to-issue continuity that Marvel was popularizing. That, as much as poor distribution and a 25c cover price, probably kept the series from being a hit. I was a Marvel fanboy back then. I bought THUNDER Agents for the terrific art by the likes of Wood and Reed Crandall, but I lamented the simplistic stories. In later years, numbed by Sturm und Drang superheroes, I came to appreciate Wood's lighthearted approach. He often poked gentle fun at the superhero genre. Dynamo's voice-activated belt (a modification by THUNDER engineers) was inspired by an unnamed comic book hero, and the enemy tumbled to the idea because one of their dumb-lug henchmen had read the same comic books.
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Crash,
In the context of the time--the late 1960s--THUNDER Agents was something of a throwback, ignoring the trend toward longer stories, more characterization, and issue-to-issue continuity that Marvel was popularizing. That, as much as poor distribution and a 25c cover price, probably kept the series from being a hit. I was a Marvel fanboy back then. I bought THUNDER Agents for the terrific art by the likes of Wood and Reed Crandall, but I lamented the simplistic stories.
We are on the same page there.
Although I had wondered if distribution problems weren't a factor in keeping Thunder Agents from being a 'hit'.
2 things.
I think the creators of Thunder Agents could never make up their mind as to whether the book should be 'realistic' or not.
The most realistic element for me. was Lightning, a superfast Speedster like the Flash who was going to die inevitably as eventually as he was going to run out of energy and prematurely age. The book wasn't in print long enough to resolve that storyline. I've never had much 'willing suspension of disbelief' when it comes to speedsters, because we don't get realistic consequences when they go round corners or suddenly come to a stop.
I have no problem with magic being an element in a story, but I do with something that violates the laws of the universe.
Re Dynamo. First question - exactly how can a belt give somebody superstrength? If you accept that one, how he can voice-activate it is a minor issue.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
And I am convinced that with the THUNDER and LIGHTNING motifs Thunder Agents were to some degree, influenced by the Fawcett Marvels.
second, I have found that I can gauge the success of a creation by how hard it is for new creators to take the concept and make it work.
There have been several attempts at reviving Thunder Agents, many by highly respected creators - and yes there have been great problems with copyright - But none of them have really succeeded.
Nobody has managed to do the Spirit as well as Will Eisner, Nobody has done Scrooge as well as Barks, Nobody does Alan Moore's characters as well as he did. Nobody has done Kirby's Forth World and made it as memorable as he did.
There are exceptions. Claremont and Byrne were able to take the X-men and make it their own.
My Flash Gordon will always be Mac Raboys Flash Gordon, as he did the weekend strip which I would read in luscious colour every Sunday in the 50's! This was the strip which made me apprecciate the portrayal of texture in art!
Cheers!
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The thunder belt made the wearer's "body structure change to the consistency of steel" The body becomes much denser and the weight increases. Hence Dynamo becomes one of the few examples of heroes jumping up in order to crash down through a building. Ultra Boy is another. Not a lot of science in there, just good fun.
Robb, I'll send you a couple of articles which touch on the mass thingy and the body change heroes. I get the feeling they wont have any influence on your views of the Big Red Cheese and family but I find them utterly charming, and the other versions of the Shazam idea are Interesting and enjoyable imo.
Words of power - Kagaran; Kimota; Sun Disc.
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And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people.
There's an amusing THUNDER Agents story in which agent Dynamo, who gains super strength when he twists a dial on his belt, was unable to activate the belt because villains had restrained his hands. Afterward the agency makes the belt voice-activated, so that it turns on when Dynamo speaks a "magic word." He chooses a word unlikely to be uttered in daily conversation, "Excelsior." However the bad guys notice that Dynamo yells "Excelsior!" before going into action and they figure it out. They record Dynamo saying the magic word and whenever the hero shows up and says "Excelsior" to turn on his belt they play the recording and the belt shuts off again.
I know I've read that plot before, though I can't recall whether it was in Captain Marvel or Marvelman! The villain of the story, (either Sivana or Gargunza) records the boy hero saying his word of power and plays it back to the superhero figure, transforming him to child form for easy capture.
Interesting that Dynamo would choose the word Excelsior, wasn't that one of Stan Lee's catchwords in Marvel comics?
BTW, Panther, I hate what DC did with the Fawcett characters too!
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Well, thanks for that K1ngcat, you've got me frantically trying to find where that happened.
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Found it. It's a Marvelman story, "The Stolen Kimota". Can't find which issue it appeared but it's reprinted in
Marvelman Family's finest #5. Yes, Gargunza up to his evil tricks again.
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Found it. It's a Marvelman story, "The Stolen Kimota". Can't find which issue it appeared but it's reprinted in
Marvelman Family's finest #5. Yes, Gargunza up to his evil tricks again.
Thanks for the detective work, paw, I knew it was out there somewhere! :)
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(1) Interesting that they were so concerned about parents approving of these comics, that they had Eleanor Roosevelt and Rear Admiral Byrd on the editorial board.
Fawcett wasn't the only comic company with experts. I know All American had a panel (including the Wonder Woman author) & I'm pretty sure other companies had them as well.
(2) I suppose one wonders if there was a 'price' to the various experts appearing on these approval boards. I know William Moulton Marsten was 'allowed' to create Wonder Woman for All American Comics. I think Pearl S. Buck was on DC's group and she created some comic stories.
And that was before the official comics book code came in.
There were actually comic codes before the 'big' one in 1954 that applied to most of the publishers.
Also a bit of an interesting parallel with the early stories of Supergirl in which she lived in an orphanage for a while so people wouldn't know of her existence (or blow Superman's cover).
*snicker* Otto Binder was the creator of both Mary Marvel and Supergirl. After the DC/Fawcett lawsuit DC hired Binder to work for them. Superman editor Mort Weisinger told Binder to give Superman a female cousin & Binder felt Mort had to know he had created Mary Marvel, but he never asked Mort about that.
(1) I was absolutely shocked to see that Eleanor Roosevelt was a member of Fawcett's editorial board. She was so busy with her projects for the betterment of Humankind and The Earth, that she couldn't possibly have had time to participate in considering what Fawcett was doing. But, by the same token, being as wealthy as she was, and also with such high moral standards, she was likely impossible to sell use of her name for any price.
(2) Was Admiral Byrd a gambler late in life, or broke because he'd been swindled by his financial investment counsellor??? I doubt that he would sell use of his name for some thousands of Dollars, even 1940s Dollars. And, I doubt that he had the time to actually participate on boards considering anything as trivial as whether or not Captain Marvel was "wholesome" entertainment for the kiddies. Would these celebrities' publicity agents have convinced them that having their names listed on such boards would help to support and preserve their images as caring about the morals of the younger generation of Americans?
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(1) I was absolutely shocked to see that Eleanor Roosevelt was a member of Fawcett's editorial board. She was so busy with her projects for the betterment of Humankind and The Earth, that she couldn't possibly have had time to participate in considering what Fawcett was doing. But, by the same token, being as wealthy as she was, and also with such high moral standards, she was likely impossible to sell use of her name for any price.
(2) Was Admiral Byrd a gambler late in life, or broke because he'd been swindled by his financial investment counsellor??? I doubt that he would sell use of his name for some thousands of Dollars, even 1940s Dollars. And, I doubt that he had the time to actually participate on boards considering anything as trivial as whether or not Captain Marvel was "wholesome" entertainment for the kiddies. Would these celebrities publicity agents have convinced them that having their names listed on such boards would help to support and preserve their images as caring about the morals of the younger generation of Americans?
Ooh, the plot thickens. We could have conspiracy theories galore. Did all members of the board read all of the comics? Were they divided up among them? Did they just give Eleanor Roosevelt and Admiral Byrd one or two to read each month, so they could say they were on the board without having to do much? Did the comics get passed on to trusted minions who made the decisions on their behalf? Did they bring on different celebrities each month? Or did they not have to read them at all and just attend a meeting once a year and throw in their two cents worth of advice? It would be interesting to know how the boards actually worked.
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Did they just give Eleanor Roosevelt and Admiral Byrd one or two to read each month, so they could say they were on the board without having to do much?
This is an intriguing subject. I can imagine Fawcett wanting to reassure parents that their comics were wholesome, and figuring that putting a noted person's name on them would help sales. After all, celebrity endorsements were a common feature in advertising of the period, and public outrage over comic books hadn't yet built up.
Perhaps someone who knew someone who knew Eleanor's representatives passed her a few comics, showed her that they were inoffensive, and asked if they could add her name to a symbolic "editorial board." I think Fawcett would have been an easy sell if they showed her Captain Marvel, with its kid-friendly art and lighthearted stories. As long as they didn't show her a story featuring Steamboat. That probably wouldn't have gone over too well. As for Admiral Byrd, I could imagine him saying, "Sure, why not?" and going back to feeding his penguins. I sincerely doubt any of the "editorial board" had any direct influence upon, or even interest in, the comics.
Though they were self-serving, Fawcett's celebrity endorsements don't bug me because their product at the time was relatively innocuous. On the other hand Charles Biro's / Lev Gleason's aggressive endorsement campaign was obnoxious and hypocritical. Of course none of the public figures they trotted out were of Ms Roosevelt's stature. But his parade of cops and social workers (assuming they were real) loudly praised the beneficial effects of Crime Does Not Pay alongside gleeful depictions of amoral gangsters putting bullets through women's heads. Eleanor probably would not have approved of Lev Gleason comics.
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Just a word on patronage. When Peter Harvie and I set up the British Blues Archive he approached a number of influential names in the British Blues business to ask for their blessing and would they mind being named as a patron to the Archive. We lined up the late Chris Barber, John Mayall, Paul Jones and Mike Vernon (you might have to Google them if you're not a big Blues fan.)
The first thing they all asked was, "What do I have to do?"
When Peter told them "Nothing!" they were all happy to offer their patronage. Maybe it might have been a bit like that with Fawcett?
Just sayin'! ;)
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The first thing they all asked was, "What do I have to do?"
When Peter told them "Nothing!" they were all happy to offer their patronage. Maybe it might have been a bit like that with Fawcett?
I'm absolutely sure that's exactly how it works.
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Just a word on patronage. When Peter Harvie and I set up the British Blues Archive he approached a number of influential names in the British Blues business to ask for their blessing and would they mind being named as a patron to the Archive. We lined up the late Chris Barber, John Mayall, Paul Jones and Mike Vernon (you might have to Google them if you're not a big Blues fan.)
K1ngcat, you'll be happy to know that I knew of John Mayall, though had to look up the others, and I'm not sure I have the right Paul Jones because there are tons of them. But when I looked up Mike Vernon, I saw that he had worked with Chicken Shack and I actually already knew that Christine Perfect sang with them and that she became Christine McVie. Are you impressed? Well, you may not be as impressed when I say that I knew John Mayall, Christine Perfect/McVie because I was a big fan of the 70s/80s version of Fleetwood Mac. So sorry when Christine McVie passed away recently. I saw her in concert with the Mac three times. She had one of the best voices in the business.
Cheers
QQ
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Well, you may not be as impressed when I say that I knew John Mayall, Christine Perfect/McVie because I was a big fan of the 70s/80s version of Fleetwood Mac.
QQ, if you look at the avatar on Kingcat's posts, you will see that he labels himself, Blues Man and comic book fan - and in that order.
Take it from me, he will be impressed, as am I and as will several others on this forum.
Back in the day I bought John Mayall - lived at Klooks Kleek, didn't like it but then I had to put up with my sister - in the next room, playing it non-stop for weeks. Now, I can never forget it.
[Life is just a slow train, crawling up a hill.]
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Just a word on patronage. When Peter Harvie and I set up the British Blues Archive he approached a number of influential names in the British Blues business to ask for their blessing and would they mind being named as a patron to the Archive. We lined up the late Chris Barber, John Mayall, Paul Jones and Mike Vernon (you might have to Google them if you're not a big Blues fan.)
K1ngcat, you'll be happy to know that I knew of John Mayall, though had to look up the others, and I'm not sure I have the right Paul Jones because there are tons of them. But when I looked up Mike Vernon, I saw that he had worked with Chicken Shack and I actually already knew that Christine Perfect sang with them and that she became Christine McVie. Are you impressed? Well, you may not be as impressed when I say that I knew John Mayall, Christine Perfect/McVie because I was a big fan of the 70s/80s version of Fleetwood Mac. So sorry when Christine McVie passed away recently. I saw her in concert with the Mac three times. She had one of the best voices in the business.
Cheers
QQ
QQ, I'm already impressed to know you've heard of John Mayall, UK's longest serving Bluesman, currently still alive recording and performing. Christine McVie (previously Perfect) was a great part of the transition from Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac to the million selling, international rock band that Fleetwood Mac became. She managed that transition without losing one iota of her credibility and I think that speaks to her talent as a musician and songwriter. I love both bands in different ways.
Mike Vernon was the vocalist who turned producer, responsible for setting up the Blue Horizon record label and credited with discovering half the bands who formed the sixties UK Blues Boom, including the Savoy Brown Blues Band, Stone's Masonry, Chicken Shack, Fleetwood Mac, Aynsley Dunbar's Retaliation, The Keef Hartley Band and many more. And the right Paul Jones was the front man of Manfred Mann, now considered a sixties pop group but when he was at the helm they were a very credible R&B group. He's since been a Radio One DJ, lead singer of The Blues Band, and winner of a good few awards for UK's best harmonica player. And a jolly nice chap into the bargain!
Thanks for your interest, and Panther, I'm sorry about the John Mayall thing, I never had a sister but I can imagine! ;)
Y'all keep rockin' 8)
K1ngcat
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Just a word on patronage. When Peter Harvie and I set up the British Blues Archive he approached a number of influential names in the British Blues business to ask for their blessing and would they mind being named as a patron to the Archive. We lined up the late Chris Barber, John Mayall, Paul Jones and Mike Vernon (you might have to Google them if you're not a big Blues fan.)
K1ngcat, you'll be happy to know that I knew of John Mayall, though had to look up the others, and I'm not sure I have the right Paul Jones because there are tons of them. But when I looked up Mike Vernon, I saw that he had worked with Chicken Shack and I actually already knew that Christine Perfect sang with them and that she became Christine McVie. Are you impressed? Well, you may not be as impressed when I say that I knew John Mayall, Christine Perfect/McVie because I was a big fan of the 70s/80s version of Fleetwood Mac. So sorry when Christine McVie passed away recently. I saw her in concert with the Mac three times. She had one of the best voices in the business.
Cheers
QQ
QQ, I'm already impressed to know you've heard of John Mayall, UK's longest serving Bluesman, currently still alive recording and performing. Christine McVie (previously Perfect) was a great part of the transition from Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac to the million selling, international rock band that Fleetwood Mac became. She managed that transition without losing one iota of her credibility and I think that speaks to her talent as a musician and songwriter. I love both bands in different ways.
Thanks for clarifying which Paul Jones. I was only aware of Manfred Mann as a pop band, so didn't realise the blues connection. And Christine McVie's voice and songs are often trickier than they first seem. My favourite is her classic 'Songbird'. I can hold a tune and sing on key (mostly), but try singing Songbird and it's deceptively difficult. She makes it sound like an effortless ballad, but it's not. I even had one of her solo albums at one point, though I missed the brilliant Fleetwood Mac arrangements.
Cheers
QQ