[happyhuman]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to know why some people here think that the Nedor characters are not reaily in public domain (yet) and if this is true what do you think will happen to a compeny like Dynamite who uses those characters?

+ Are all Centaur characters in the public domain? for some reason I seem to remember reading on some website that only a couple of their characters are in public domain (like Arrow and Amazing Man but not Sentinel or Marksman). Now I could be remembering wrong so thats why I'm asking

[Ed Love]

Because there are records that shows some though not all of the Nedor comics were renewed by Popular Library which was the pulp and paperback arm of the company. Popular was eventually sold to Fawcett which later went to CBS (who renewed many of the later Fawcett comics). CBS eventually rid itself of much of these lines, with Popular going to Warner Communications. One needs to look at the records of sale though to find out if these sales included copyrights or just trademarks.

As far as I know, none of the Centaur books were renewed.

[John C]

And to expand slightly on what Ed said, while the records of sale can tell you who owns the property, the fact still stands that books were renewed, no matter who has current ownership.

As to the results, nothing definitively "will" happen to companies like Dynamite.  Copyright infringement is a civil issue, not criminal, so the copyright owner needs to take a hand in things.  Despite what you've read on DVDs, there wouldn't be any FBI raid or anything.

If the current copyright holder is OK with Dynamite using their properties, then they're safe.  Otherwise, they can start with a Cease and Desist order and either negotiate for a cut of the profits (retroactively licensing the characters) or sue for damages, depending on how Dynamite itself handles things.

Centaur is probably a trademark-like issue, because (again, as Ed pointed out) there aren't any known renewals.  There are a number of people who believe that characters are or should be off-limits if another company has used them recently, but that isn't a legal position unless there's a trademark issue.

[Roygbiv666]

And to expand slightly on what Ed said, while the records of sale can tell you who owns the property, the fact still stands that books were renewed, no matter who has current ownership.

As to the results, nothing definitively "will" happen to companies like Dynamite.  Copyright infringement is a civil issue, not criminal, so the copyright owner needs to take a hand in things.  Despite what you've read on DVDs, there wouldn't be any FBI raid or anything.

If the current copyright holder is OK with Dynamite using their properties, then they're safe.  Otherwise, they can start with a Cease and Desist order and either negotiate for a cut of the profits (retroactively licensing the characters) or sue for damages, depending on how Dynamite itself handles things.

Centaur is probably a trademark-like issue, because (again, as Ed pointed out) there aren't any known renewals.  There are a number of people who believe that characters are or should be off-limits if another company has used them recently, but that isn't a legal position unless there's a trademark issue.

The books may technically be "orphan works" where they are under copyright, but there's no current copyright holder. Or, I guess, the owner doesn't know they own the properties?

[John C]

The books may technically be "orphan works" where they are under copyright, but there's no current copyright holder. Or, I guess, the owner doesn't know they own the properties?

Pretty much.  There's a chance, for example, that the books weren't part of Popular Library's sale, and when the company folded, ownership went to the owners (kind of like a lamp or a desk).  If they then died without heirs, then the copyright would be valid, but nobody would have standing to make use of its protection.

More likely is that the owner doesn't know or care about their rights.  But that won't be any protection if they wise up in the future, and so doesn't count.

[Guardian7]

So what your saying JohnC is that if someone came along and started publishing (suspected) Public Domain characters... that eventually the "actual" holder of those characters could creep in if they realize they might profit from said books/characters?

Just curious. Cause I think I am going to start doing Internet comics based on the Centaur characters (picking up where Centaur left off) and it would be nice to know if I might run into some snags along the way.

Irregardless all of this has been a fascinating read.

G7

[narfstar]

Centaur should be trademark and copyright free.

[Roygbiv666]

And, again, we aren't lawyers, so if you're really concerned you should check with one.

Of course, since nobody has been taken to court thus far ...

[John C]

So what your saying JohnC is that if someone came along and started publishing (suspected) Public Domain characters... that eventually the "actual" holder of those characters could creep in if they realize they might profit from said books/characters?

Yes.  The best analogy is abandoned real estate.  You might assume that the lot on the corner is a public park or even part of your own yard and do what you like there.  But if you're wrong, then there's an actual owner out there with rights to assert and you have none.

That's copyright.  If a trademark goes unused, it dies from "abandoment."

Just curious. Cause I think I am going to start doing Internet comics based on the Centaur characters (picking up where Centaur left off) and it would be nice to know if I might run into some snags along the way.

Certainly double-check the renewals for yourself, because its your safety and not mine at stake, but to my knowledge, no Centaur books have any renewals, so they'd be safe.

[Guardian7]

Worse case scenario for me would probably be a cease and desist JohnC... as I will probably do it for free at first. Dunno if there is a real calling for anything Centaur. BUT... I can certainly do better than the Protectors comic that featured the Centaur Characters.

G7

[comicsnorth]

One thing to keep in mind is that various names can still be trademarked while attached to non-Centaur characters--if DC were to suddenly decide to do something with one of their "Amazing Man" characters (they have 3 so far!) that would activate that trademark (I can't recall the last time their version or his logo got significant cover exposure, which would be required, I think, to make their case that they are "actively marketing" said trademark), that would at least limit your/our ability to market any version of the original under his own name, just as DC is unable to ever refer to Billy Batson's alter ego as "Captain Marvel" on any comic book cover or action figure packaging.  Likewise, Marvel would have a pretty good case to keep the name "Masked Marvel" off of anyone else's product.  Of course, if anyone were to start publishing Amazing Mystery Funnies or Keen Detective Funnies, I can't imagine any existing publisher making a case for infringement.

As for any heirs to the original rights holders making a claim, as far as I know, no one popped up during the Protectors run, so they don't seem any more likely to do so at this point.

-Comicsnorth

[Roygbiv666]

Not related to Centaur/Nedor, but trademark and copyright in general.

You can't ( apparently) copyright a "character", just the works they appear in, and, presumably the image used to represent them.

If I wanted to make a movie featuring DC's "Metamorpho", I'd need to license the rights - what "rights" are they if not copyright? Anybody know how that works? That is, when you get exclusive rights to make a Metamorpho movie, how would that be worded in the contract since you can't copyright a character?

Pretend that all made sense.

[Ed Love]

Well, there have been decisions that support character copyrights insomuch that a character is defined by the stories about him and those are protected by copyrights. Thus, if you were to license rights to make a Metamorpho movie, much would depend on the contract, but what you are licensing are the trademark rights to the name and likeness of the character as well as copyrights to the stories he appeared in. Of course, depending on the contract, you may not use or reference the JLA, Outsiders, or any other team he was part of nor pit him against a name villain like the Joker.

[Roygbiv666]

One thing to keep in mind is that various names can still be trademarked while attached to non-Centaur characters--if DC were to suddenly decide to do something with one of their "Amazing Man" characters (they have 3 so far!) that would activate that trademark (I can't recall the last time their version or his logo got significant cover exposure, which would be required, I think, to make their case that they are "actively marketing" said trademark), that would at least limit your/our ability to market any version of the original under his own name, just as DC is unable to ever refer to Billy Batson's alter ego as "Captain Marvel" on any comic book cover or action figure packaging.  Likewise, Marvel would have a pretty good case to keep the name "Masked Marvel" off of anyone else's product.  Of course, if anyone were to start publishing Amazing Mystery Funnies or Keen Detective Funnies, I can't imagine any existing publisher making a case for infringement.

As for any heirs to the original rights holders making a claim, as far as I know, no one popped up during the Protectors run, so they don't seem any more likely to do so at this point.

-Comicsnorth

Does the trademark apply to the name itself, or the name in conjunction with a logo design?

[bchat]

Does the trademark apply to the name itself, or the name in conjunction with a logo design?

From www.uspto.gov:
A trademark includes any word, name, symbol, or device, or any combination, used, or intended to be used, in commerce to identify and distinguish the goods of one manufacturer or seller from goods manufactured or sold by others, and to indicate the source of the goods. In short, a trademark is a brand name.

[John C]

Worse case scenario for me would probably be a cease and desist JohnC... as I will probably do it for free at first. Dunno if there is a real calling for anything Centaur. BUT... I can certainly do better than the Protectors comic that featured the Centaur Characters.

Still, the five minutes it'll take you to learn the ropes (and feel free to drop me an e-mail if you need help figuring things out) is well worth avoiding needing to respond to the C&D, in my opinion.  And if you check now and a letter does come, you can respond with "show me your renewals, 'cuz they ain't in the CCE," or something more lawyery sounding.

You can't ( apparently) copyright a "character", just the works they appear in, and, presumably the image used to represent them.

Right.  Look at the things copyrights cover.  They're stories and images (and melodies, but that doesn't help us, here).  Nowhere has there ever been a form to register a copyright for Superman.  Superman exists because he derives from his stories.  (I'd argue that's the take-home point of the cases Ed mentions, that there's a copyright protecting the character, but it's not the character's copyright.)

If I wanted to make a movie featuring DC's "Metamorpho", I'd need to license the rights - what "rights" are they if not copyright? Anybody know how that works? That is, when you get exclusive rights to make a Metamorpho movie, how would that be worded in the contract since you can't copyright a character?

As Ed (again) says, the trademarks, and probably even the right to create a derived work from the copyrighted stories like his origin.

As for any heirs to the original rights holders making a claim, as far as I know, no one popped up during the Protectors run, so they don't seem any more likely to do so at this point.

That's the same legal reasoning that says that, since you haven't been pulled over for speeding on the Interstate, yet (or haven't gotten a ticket for parking someplace), it must be legal.

In trademark law, yes, you can make that argument.  An undefended trademark is officially abandoned.  Copyright, however, is a monopoly on the work to be handled as the owner likes.  If he's OK with competition, he can neglect it and then crush it if he changes his mind later.

Just check the darn renewals...

[Guardian7]

Where would I go to check for the renewals or copyrights? Sorry I don't know and I didn't remember seeing it posted here.

G7

[bchat]

Where would I go to check for the renewals or copyrights?

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/cce/  Has links for Renewals filed from 1950-78
http://www.copyright.gov/records  Has Renewals filed from 1978-present.  Material published from 1964-present day were granted "Automatic Renewals".

[happyhuman]

First, sorry for the long dely in my response, thanks for everyone on their input on the subject

Second, as was mention here earlier, it seems that the Centaur characters are 'safe for use' as no lawsuit been made when the Protectors comics were around and the same for the Nedor characters.

do you think it would be prudent for someone, if he/she would want to create a comic using PD characters, to only use characters that other big compenies used already?

I mean, Malibu Comics used the Centaur characters, DC/Alan Moore used the Nedor characters and Image/Dynamite are useing various characters from many diffrent compenies and all those compenies have the money and the lawyers to know if a character is realy safe for use or not so as long as someone dosent copy those compenies interpertation on the PD characters he/she can use those characters

what do you think?

[John C]

Second, as was mention here earlier, it seems that the Centaur characters are 'safe for use' as no lawsuit been made when the Protectors comics were around and the same for the Nedor characters.

Don't confuse the lack of a public lawsuit as evidence that there was no infringement.  Copyright infringement can only be prosecuted by the owner, and deals can be made that we've never heard about.

I mean, Malibu Comics used the Centaur characters, DC/Alan Moore used the Nedor characters and Image/Dynamite are useing various characters from many diffrent compenies and all those compenies have the money and the lawyers to know if a character is realy safe for use or not so as long as someone dosent copy those compenies interpertation on the PD characters he/she can use those characters

That's not necessarily the case, because they also have the money to throw around to people who MIGHT be the owners for licensing.  And they have lawyers to scare away anybody who sends them a Cease and Desist letter.

The relevant catalogs are freely available online.  I don't understand the resistance to just looking up the renewals, honestly.  Has anybody ever gotten out of a speeding ticket by saying "rich people speed down the same road all the time, so it must be legal?"

(Caveat:  That actually IS how trademark law works.  If someone infringes on your trademark and you do nothing, it can be considered abandoned.  There's no comparable idea in copyright law, though, no matter how many websites rely on it.)

[bchat]

do you think it would be prudent for someone, if he/she would want to create a comic using PD characters, to only use characters that other big compenies used already?

I get what you're saying.  You want to play it safe.  Problem is that even if a company comes right out and says "the adventures of Captain Boogedy-Boo are Public Domain", that doesn't automatically mean they're right.  Maybe they messed-up on their research, or made a bad assumption, or they're being purposely misleading for their own reasons.

  And they have lawyers to scare away anybody who sends them a Cease and Desist letter.

I can't see anyone being scared-away by a larger company's lawyers.  The first thing that pops into my head is small-time professional wrestler "Shark Boy" going after Disney for using his Trademark.

[happyhuman]

Hmm... I understaned, but there are some characters that are well known to be PD aren't they?

Like the Clock or Daredevil, I'm just intrested to know if there are more characters like those

[John C]

Hmm... I understaned, but there are some characters that are well known to be PD aren't they?
Like the Clock or Daredevil, I'm just intrested to know if there are more characters like those

When it comes to legality, nothing is "well known" unless you have documented proof in your hands.

It sounds like I'm being argumentative and harsh, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't take whatever risk you're comfortable with.  But if you want things done above-board, the research needs to be done personally, and not by consensus or what some anonymous person on the Internet said one day.

As Ed has pointed out, there are more than a few Quality books with seemingly-valid copyrights.  Many Nedor titles got renewals, and might very well be owned by Warner Brothers and/or CBS.  The time it takes to look these things up is far less than wondering if it's "really" necessary.

However, as a starting point, the books posted on the main site are believed to be in the public domain, so the characters (as they appear therein) should be permissible, provided you verify the assumption of lapsed copyright.

[bchat]

It sounds like I'm being argumentative and harsh

People shouldn't take it that way.  You're giving "fair warning" of what might happen if they make an incorrect assumption based on someone else's incorrect assumption.

the books posted on the main site are believed to be in the public domain, so the characters (as they appear therein) should be permissible

I don't think that's a totally accurate statement.  If the first appearance of a character still has a valid Copyright, then everything published afterwards should be considered a "derivative work" with their own seperate Copyright status.  While those additional stories would be Public Domain, the "character" wouldn't be.  It's like the Superman cartoon from the 1940s.  The cartoons are Public Domain but the character isn't since the cartoons were "derived" from previous work that still has valid Copyrights.

[happyhuman]

Thank you for all your input and advice, although I am intersted in doing a comic book of my own someday I'm not planning on doing it for a few years from now, and I'm not sure if I will use some PD character. right now I'm just intrested on the subject.

from what you told me, sentencess like "Only the golden age MLJ Comet is public domain, all subsequent versions created by Archie and DC comics are NOT" from PDSH WIKI are basiclly not trust worthy, not even previus use by compeny like IMAGE of a PD character which I'm glad and thankful to you for giving it