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Coloring Books or Pages

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topic icon Author Topic: Coloring Books or Pages  (Read 17096 times)

OtherEric

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2009, 05:14:31 PM »

And, off on yet another careening tangent:  I would love a collection of Tom Lehrer's songs from the Electric Company.  The Rhino Box Set cost too much when I had too much of the material already; and the price has only gone up.  A quick check shows they actually have one of his albums on iTunes finally, so maybe there's hope there eventually.

For those of you who don't know who Tom Lehrer is:  I honestly and truly envy you; you still have that discovery ahead of you in your life.
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bchat

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2009, 08:39:25 PM »

Since I'm the one who started this thread ... "Careen Away!"

A quick search of YouTube turned-up quite a bit for Tom Lehrer.

The Electric Company Boxed Set was someting I looked at when it came out, but the price discouraged me from buying it since there was very little content I actually wanted to see.  I tried giving the "New" Electric Company a chance once, to see if it was something I'ld want my kids to watch, but I couldn't get past the opening theme.


Kelly has a very vocal and dedicated fan base; but a lot of people won't touch humor or funny animal books with a ten meter cattle prod.  Even a year after we finished the run a lot of Animal Comics issues are sitting at under 200 downloads; and in the 10 days it's been up there more people have downloaded the Phantom Lady 5 (1) I posted than all but one of the Peter Wheat issues.  He's "up there" by reputation, but a lot of people just don't know what they're missing and don't want to find out for some reason.


That's probably a by-product of the mess the comic industry has made of itself over the last several decades ... people who might take a liking to the work simply aren't exposed to it because they never walked into a comic shop or aren't "comic book fans", and bookstores seem more interested in stocking the superhero & manga books than pretty much anything else comics have to offer.  It's a problem that starts at the "publication level" and trickles-down from there.  If nobody is producing "funny animal" books and getting them distributed in a way for the bookstores to sell, then there's nothing to buy and nobody gets exposed to the work. 

I want my kids to read stories that they can enjoy, where I don't have to worry about the content.  While I'll admit I never gave the genre a second glance before, I look at the "funny animal" books NOW as something I can print-out for them, especially since I don't see that type of material available in any sort of variety in the comic shops I go to.  Maybe it's different elsewhere, but around here, funny animal books "don't exist", as far as the local comic shop owners are concerned.  Superheroes?  Yeah.  Horror reprints? No problem.  Good Girl Art?  You bet.  Books containing the collected artwork Will Eisner did on dinner napkins and paper plates?  Of course!  The cute & cuddley adventures of talking animals?  Nope.  That's a shame, because the Comic Industry just cuts-out what should be a "target audience" simply because it wouldn't be viewed with any amount of respect by people who don't read comics anyway.
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narfstar

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2009, 08:51:55 PM »

Consider DC's reluctance to reprint Sugar and Spike. There has to be a whole new audience that would love them given the chance. They are classics. When Rugrats was big it would have been an ideal time to revive S&S
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JVJ

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2009, 09:04:54 PM »

Check your local (independent) bookstore for a new THICK book by Art Spiegelman reprinting kid-friendly comics. It's got SuperMouse on the cover.

(|:{>
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OtherEric

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2009, 10:48:13 PM »

It's a great book, Jim; even if I can't remember the exact name.  A wonderful mix of stories, with lots of Kelly, Mayer, Barks, and Stanley.

DC has tried to reprint Sugar & Spike in small doses a couple of times; it sadly doesn't do well.  I treasure the dolls they did a few years ago.
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narfstar

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2009, 11:37:48 PM »

The TOON Treasury of Classic Children's Comics

I sent them my copy of Puzzle Fun so they could get pages. Never got my comp copy.
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Captain Audio

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2009, 11:39:07 PM »




Childhood toys that actually should be banned = lawn darts. Maybe.


They used something very similar in the early days of WW1, they called them flechettes and dropped them by the bushell from aircraft, they could go straight through a draft horse.
The romans used a similar dart called a plumbata (sp?), the Jupiter Legion carried six clipped to the inside of their shields and threw them as they advanced.
I've heard tales of people getting a free lobotomy from those lawn darts.
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John C

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2009, 05:24:38 PM »


I want my kids to read stories that they can enjoy, where I don't have to worry about the content.  While I'll admit I never gave the genre a second glance before, I look at the "funny animal" books NOW as something I can print-out for them, especially since I don't see that type of material available in any sort of variety in the comic shops I go to.  Maybe it's different elsewhere, but around here, funny animal books "don't exist", as far as the local comic shop owners are concerned.  Superheroes?  Yeah.  Horror reprints? No problem.  Good Girl Art?  You bet.  Books containing the collected artwork Will Eisner did on dinner napkins and paper plates?  Of course!  The cute & cuddley adventures of talking animals?  Nope.  That's a shame, because the Comic Industry just cuts-out what should be a "target audience" simply because it wouldn't be viewed with any amount of respect by people who don't read comics anyway.


You make some good points earlier (which I clipped out for space), but I think you hit it on the head, here.  The industry and the fans are both (still) obsessed with the idea of comics being "taken seriously as an artform," whateverr that may mean.  That means that fun things are, essentially, frowned upon at best, and often discarded.

And if something's genuinely for kids?  Oh, no way.  It'll clash with the posters of women wearing more weapons than clothing...
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bchat

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2009, 04:51:23 PM »


You make some good points earlier (which I clipped out for space), but I think you hit it on the head, here.  The industry and the fans are both (still) obsessed with the idea of comics being "taken seriously as an artform," whateverr that may mean.  That means that fun things are, essentially, frowned upon at best, and often discarded.

And if something's genuinely for kids?  Oh, no way.  It'll clash with the posters of women wearing more weapons than clothing...


I didn't mean to go on a tirade, but sometimes, thinking about the comic industry and the way it's set-up simply frustrates me to no end.

I'm sure there are comic shop owners who try and make material available for kids, but they're limited by what Diamond carries & the comic companies produce.  The shops I go to (occasionally) that carry "kids comics" usually have them off to the side and not with the rest of the books.  In a way, I understand that it makes sense, but it also sends the kids a message that "you go over here, because only the REAL comics go on the wall".

As far as "being taken seriously as an artform" goes ... an artform should grow & change, explore new areas, yet comics still, for the most part, feature superheroes, as they have since the 1960s.  I personally don't view comics as an artform but as entertainment, first and foremost.  Yes, there are tremendous artists working in the field, but they aren't just making pretty pictures, they're telling a story.  An image can look cool and may make for a great poster, but without the story behind them they're just a bunch of pictures, which isn't what a "comic book" is supposed to be.

Hollywood cranks-out sci-fi & horror movies like there's no tomorrow, and yet comics are still dominated by "men in tights".  "What's wrong with this picture?"  I'm a superhero fan, so that's what I want in my comics, but even I'll admit that there is a large & loyal fan-base for Horror Comics.  I see it when I search eBay and nearly every Pre-Code horror title has multiple bids and is getting good money, while some (ok, a lot) of superhero titles get very little action at all.  I've picked-up GA superhero books for under $5, but I couldn't touch a Pre-Code Horror book for twice that.  So there's an audience there for that genre, but I don't get the impression that Marvel or DC even notice, or care to acknowledge it.  If comics want to be "taken seriously as an artform", shouldn't they at least TRY to publish what the Public wants to read, not just what Comic Fans say they want?

It just boggles my mind that there are more people living in America today than there was 40 years ago, and in that time, nothing has really changed about comics except that the print-runs are smaller.  "Smaller" ... with a larger population in the USA ... "What's wrong with this picture?"
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John C

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2009, 05:45:42 PM »


I didn't mean to go on a tirade, but sometimes, thinking about the comic industry and the way it's set-up simply frustrates me to no end.


Oh, I'm right there with you.

Publishers complain that sales are down, but keep publishing the same material.  They complain that there aren't new customers, so they make the stories more insular.  They complain that kids won't buy comics, but only sell in obscure stores and pile on the sex and violence.

The comic shop owners bemoan the state of the industry, but still let their places get decorated like...well, a comic shop.  With precious few exceptions, they're unilaterally dark, dusty places with quasi-offensive posters covering the walls and no thought to making the place comfortable for anybody not used to bending over boxes for hours looking for "the find."

And they both tolerate being mediated by a monopoly in distribution (Diamond), which proudly uses a variety of unfair business practices.

It's wrong all around, and at every turn, it's like everybody's trying to crash their business, rather than preserve it.

Oh, and I mention the "being taken seriously" thing, because it's symptomatic and self-fulfilling.  The more you (as a professional in any field) make about people not treating you with respect, the less respect you'll find for your work.  It's like kids who keep reminding you how "mature" they are.  How mature do they seem, right?
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JVJ

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2009, 07:46:20 PM »



And if something's genuinely for kids?  Oh, no way.  It'll clash with the posters of women wearing more weapons than clothing...


I didn't mean to go on a tirade, but sometimes, thinking about the comic industry and the way it's set-up simply frustrates me to no end.

I'm sure there are comic shop owners who try and make material available for kids, but they're limited by what Diamond carries & the comic companies produce.  The shops I go to (occasionally) that carry "kids comics" usually have them off to the side and not with the rest of the books.  In a way, I understand that it makes sense, but it also sends the kids a message that "you go over here, because only the REAL comics go on the wall".


Or "don't come over here because your mom will sue us!"

Quote

Hollywood cranks-out sci-fi & horror movies like there's no tomorrow, and yet comics are still dominated by "men in tights". 


But Hollywood ALSO cranks out Pixar and Disney pics aimed at developing a love for movies in the next generations. Comics simply do NOTHING to compete for the attention of a new generation of readers and are therefore doomed to die off as our generations age and have to choose between medical bills and comic books. I know which one I'm opting for...

Quote
"What's wrong with this picture?"  I'm a superhero fan, so that's what I want in my comics, but even I'll admit that there is a large & loyal fan-base for Horror Comics.  I see it when I search eBay and nearly every Pre-Code horror title has multiple bids and is getting good money, while some (ok, a lot) of superhero titles get very little action at all.  I've picked-up GA superhero books for under $5, but I couldn't touch a Pre-Code Horror book for twice that.  So there's an audience there for that genre, but I don't get the impression that Marvel or DC even notice, or care to acknowledge it.  If comics want to be "taken seriously as an artform", shouldn't they at least TRY to publish what the Public wants to read, not just what Comic Fans say they want?


"Artists" don't create "what the public wants." That's the job of the illustrator who creates art to sell to the public and the more he can judge and predict the public's taste, the richer he will become (Norman Rockwell springs to mind). An "artist" and an "artform" are supposed to reflect what the ARTIST thinks is ART - which is why I have such difficulty with most of the Drawn & Quarterly and Fantagraphics output. The "artform" of comics seems to have become totally introspective and even LESS aware or interested in the public and OUR tastes. While it IS possible for the work for hire illustrators of comic books to elevate the medium to an artform, that happens so rarely that even a reasonably competent example can win the Pulitzer Prize (Maus). Speigelman made Maus for himself - and that's typical of art, as opposed to illustration. Sadly, most artists seem to have very limited stories to tell about themselves. Nor do they have much to add to the canon of superheroes or horror, so they hire themselves out to produce the pap that gets recycled in the comics of the major publishers.

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It just boggles my mind that there are more people living in America today than there was 40 years ago, and in that time, nothing has really changed about comics except that the print-runs are smaller.  "Smaller" ... with a larger population in the USA ... "What's wrong with this picture?"


In order to have a growing market, you MUST renew it. That means bringing in a new generation of readers/collectors/aficionados. Without a constant renewing of the customer base, the medium is bound to fade out as the readership ages. It's simply economics.

Good talking with you, bchat.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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bchat

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2009, 10:32:59 PM »



Hollywood cranks-out sci-fi & horror movies like there's no tomorrow, and yet comics are still dominated by "men in tights". 


But Hollywood ALSO cranks out Pixar and Disney pics aimed at developing a love for movies in the next generations. Comics simply do NOTHING to compete for the attention of a new generation of readers and are therefore doomed to die off as our generations age and have to choose between medical bills and comic books. I know which one I'm opting for...


I didn't mean to ignore Disney (and other producers) and all the fine kids entertainment they produce, I just picked Horror because it's popular and sci-fi because that's what I watch.  But you're right about Hollywood producing material aimed at kids of all ages in an effort to cultivate their future audience.  That's my point that I danced around, in that the comic industry doesn't push hard enough to get the attention of kids & their parents with age-appropriate material that's easy to find.  How many mothers who never read a comic are going to, out of the blue, take their four-year-kid to a comic shop just to see what's there?  Not many, I'ld bet.


Quote
Quote

If comics want to be "taken seriously as an artform", shouldn't they at least TRY to publish what the Public wants to read, not just what Comic Fans say they want?


"Artists" don't create "what the public wants." That's the job of the illustrator who creates art to sell to the public and the more he can judge and predict the public's taste, the richer he will become (Norman Rockwell springs to mind). An "artist" and an "artform" are supposed to reflect what the ARTIST thinks is ART - which is why I have such difficulty with most of the Drawn & Quarterly and Fantagraphics output. The "artform" of comics seems to have become totally introspective and even LESS aware or interested in the public and OUR tastes. While it IS possible for the work for hire illustrators of comic books to elevate the medium to an artform, that happens so rarely that even a reasonably competent example can win the Pulitzer Prize (Maus). Speigelman made Maus for himself - and that's typical of art, as opposed to illustration. Sadly, most artists seem to have very limited stories to tell about themselves. Nor do they have much to add to the canon of superheroes or horror, so they hire themselves out to produce the pap that gets recycled in the comics of the major publishers.


Yeah, I guess "artists" & "artform" aren't the right phrases to use, but I don't feel right selling-short the work the comic illustrators put into what they do.  It takes talent, patience and creativity to create a comic, the difference being between the two is that the comic artist lacks the freedom of expression that a "True Artist" enjoys.


Quote

In order to have a growing market, you MUST renew it. That means bringing in a new generation of readers/collectors/aficionados. Without a constant renewing of the customer base, the medium is bound to fade out as the readership ages. It's simply economics.


The entire comic industry seems content with the "trickle-in effect" of random people walking into a comic book store and becoming a "fan".  It's not even a "hit-or-miss" marketing approach because there's no approach at all.  I certainly hope that Marvel & DC don't have the belief that their movies & cartoons are going to boost their comic sales, because it isn't happening, at least not in any significant way.

Of course, all this talk I've done about comic sales and so on doesn't take into account the sales of TPBs in the big bookstores.  I don't look at those numbers, if they're even available anywhere, and who knows what kind of money is being made by Marvel through their "digital comics" program.  So, it could very well be that the only thing on the verge of collapse is the brick-and-mortar comic shop, and comic "books" are adapting well enough.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 11:25:48 PM by bchat »
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Yoc

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2009, 10:33:25 PM »

I think my story is pretty typical of my generation of comics readers.
I was given Archie Digests and Dell Duck comics to keep me busy on long family trips.
I was allowed to pick out one, perhaps two new comics on a trip.  My parents were smart and got more bang for their buck with the digests and Archie was a safe book to buy an 8 year-old.  (But I did develop a strong hate for Lil'Jinx that might have scared them if they knew about it.)
Comics were still on-sale in corner milk stores with the old 'Do Not Read' sign over them.  I kept using the corner milkstore for my first few years until I discovered comic shops around the age of 12 or 13.  And I found them wonderful (wow, look at all the cool GA comics on the walls and the price they want!) but also scary.  Why do most 'comic book guys' really do seem like the one on The Simpsons?  I wasn't turned away but it took a while before I felt welcome there either.
Where does the newest generation of kids even get their comics short of hunting down a shop?  You've already got to BE a fan to want to go into one of them.
And let's not forget the COST of a comic these days.  They sure are aren't 25 cents anymore!  They've priced themselves out of the average kid's comfort zone.  Better deal to buy that Wii game than a comic.  And the Japanese manga (with their 100s of pages on NEWSPRINT in b&w at times!) seems to attract more attention than homegrown product.

It's all a depressing picture isn't it?
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narfstar

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2009, 01:16:15 AM »

Kids are picking up the comics they see on TV. Not sure how many they are buying. I saw some kids in a books store looking at Teen Titans Go a couple of years ago. They had no idea who the real Teen Titans were but thought the Teen Titans were cool. I did no see them buy anything. Manga is a lot of pages of nothing. The amount of story in many manga is miniscular. They can have some of the most original ideas around and then run the story quickly into the ground going no where.

My LCS owner/operator is a young minister. Great guy. Probably could not keep open without the gaming side of the business.
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Yoc

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2009, 02:44:38 AM »

Yep, my own LCS is switched to games and especially models, toys and figurines in the late 80se.  They got rid of most of their back-issues and stockd a ton of TPB.  Oh and sell Japanese cartoons and sci-fi movies on dvd.  Comics are almost an after thought now.  I haven't been back in years but I'm sure it hasn't suddenly added more comics!

-Yoc
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darkmark

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2009, 03:01:59 PM »

Yep, it's pretty much the way my mom and I (and Michael Chabon) have said...there are no step-on titles for the kids, and if there were, they aren't out there where the kids can get to them.  When I was a kid (get ready for boredom), comics were everywhere.  Even in the small town where I lived, there were at least a dozen places where you could buy them.  Grocery stores, drug stores, convenience stores, department stores, and if we'd had a newsstand, you could have bought them there.  They were plentiful.  They were cheap.  They were, thanks to the CCA, moral.  On top of that, if you were a kid, a really young kid, there were comics for YOU.  Funny animals, funny people, and tv and movie adaptations.  Remember that last bit, neighbors, because that's what got me to buy comics.  I could only see Huckleberry Hound once a week, but I could buy a Huck Hound comic, take it home, and read about him anytime I wanted.  And you only saw a movie once back then...if you missed it, you were outta luck.  But if you got the comic about the movie, you had a memento of it forever, or at least as long as you kept the comic. 

They tied into our world.

They were cheap.

They were where we could buy them.

They weren't objectionable.

Just about everything that modern comics...aren't.
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Yoc

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2009, 05:05:27 PM »

Well said DM!
I find it interesting that Diamond is allowed to hold a monopoly of sorts on comic book distribution.  I would have expected the law to be after them.  Their new rules will mean even less choice for the consumer and a quicker fall off the cliff for comics.

-Yoc
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narfstar

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2009, 05:55:01 PM »

I think that print on demand will eventually replace Diamond. Put a special printer in each LCS. Order off the internet and get it on demand. Would take the speculation out of it. You would just get a book anytime you needed it for price. Take out Diamonds cut and the book price drops in half. The books could be a dollar for the creators and two for the shop to print it.
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John C

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2009, 06:33:28 PM »

Oh, yeah.  I watched the destruction of a comic shop, too.

Once upon a time, I found what might have been the best possible modern shop.  It was in a mall, of all places, across from the food court, and wedged among a boutique, a video store, and a game store.  It was small, so they weren't big on back issues, but it was relatively spacious (you never had to hunch over or bend down to get something), brightly lit, staffed by friendly people who knew their stuff, and (probably not coincidentally) managed by an attractive young woman who was good with kids.

Then the parent company decided that they were doing so well, that they should expand.  So they turned it into a video game store that had comics in the back, since games have the higher profit margin.  They also lowered the racks and shoved them closer together, making it a more awkward experience.  Unsurprisingly, they phased out the comics entirely within six months, then closed entirely, six months after that.

And like Darkmark, I grew up with comics on spinner racks at the local convenience store, and even at the supermarket checkout, sometimes.  The whole reason I first investigated an actual comic book store was because the references to back issues interested me, and (specifically) I was enjoying All-Star Squadron enough to want the earlier issues.

That shop?  Well, it scared the crap out of me at the time, even though it's pretty typical.  The place was only open a couple of hours a day, and the front windows were covered over with cardboard.  All the new comics were on wall racks that probably stood nine or ten feet high, and even the counter was far above my head, probably higher than four feet.

The front was cramped, because the entire back was reserved for the heaps and heaps of bagged back issues.  This was nice, because the guy had a LOT, but we're talking about two boxes underneath the tables, plus another on top.  This meant hunting for a book involved drooping over the high boxes, and burrowing under the table with your rear end hanging out, for the boxes underneath.  (Hint:  Go to your local drug store or supermarket and look where they place products; if you have to bend to get it, they're not expecting to sell much of it.)

So overall, it was an unpleasant shopping experience, and I'm really surprised my mother was OK taking me there every week to give money to the hairy guy wearing sunglasses indoors.

I later moved, and the comic shop there was much smaller (in a rezoned house), but could've been otherwise identical, except that the owner's mother absolutely refused to let him paper over the windows.  Something about him looking like a child molester that way...

And that ignores the content, entirely.  There was a time when people were suggesting giving out comic books to trick-or-treaters, but not only is that insanely expensive, but how does one find comics that are acceptable to hand out to random kids!?  Even Superman just goes around brooding with heat vision "leaking" out of his eyes.  Fun, right?

Oh--and since I brought it up, and Yoc mentioned it while I was typing this, Diamond persists because the big companies are happy, and the small companies don't otherwise have a way into distribution.  Their business practices are unfair, but it seems to me that anybody who'd have standing to sue would go out of business by cutting ties while waiting for their suit to come up, which would limit the number of possible plaintiffs.
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Yoc

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2009, 09:24:28 PM »

I like the sound of Narf's p-o-d idea but keeping such a machine maintained with paper and ink could be a headache and what if one breaks or is vandalized?  Who pays for fixing it?
Now I keep hearing about the death of the printed page - newspapers fading away, etc.
I can see a day when someone Finally comes up with a good, reasonably costing, long battery life digital scan reader.  Once we can download a comic for hopefully peanuts there just might be room at the table for the small guy again.
I enjoyed the b&w independents heydays of the 80s.  Sure there was a lot of crap but there were a lot of fun books as well.

-Yoc
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narfstar

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2009, 11:26:29 PM »

Drivethru comics and wowio and some others seem to be making it happen. I do not know how much profit they are making but I see it as a growth industry. Ninety nine cents a comic for what is 3.99 now at the shop. I had read and downloaded Johnny Saturn 1-5 for free a while back on Wowio. Wowio charges 99cents for downloading now but reading online is still free. I discovered that Johnny Saturn was still being written with issues 6-9 out. I could have read them free on the Storycomics website or download the pdf from wowio or drivethru. I like to support what I want to see continued so I downloaded the pdfs which I like to read at my leasure. The p.o.d. concept now is from sites like drivethru or comicexpress where they will send you paper copies at about the same price as an LCS. Johnny Saturn 1-5 is available as trade paperback now for $13 I think. I see this model becoming more and more prevelant and hopefully someday being the downfall of Diamond
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John C

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2009, 07:15:07 PM »

The thing about retail print-on-demand, as I see it (and I'm bouncing around a lot of ideas, here), is that you can't rationalize specialization.

What I mean is that the technology is relatively simple.  I think I've mentioned the Internet Archive's Internet Bookmobile before, which is a high-end example costing about fifteen thousand dollars for an entire mobile facility with seating.  But today, you could get a surplus netbook (about $200), a decent speed color printer (I see one for under $50), and while I personally hate them, you can get a cheap thermal binder (that melts the plastic comb on both ends) for also about $50, sometimes less.  Yeah, laser printers, better binding machines (like those from Powis), and a good paper cutter would be much better, but my point is that you could set up shop in someone's back room for cheap, assuming power, Internet, and paper.

So what I was getting at is that, if you're going to print new comics for customers (legally, I mean), then there's no reason not to also use the same technology to print the public domain comics that are available, as well, since it's a no-cost addition to the product line.  And then, if you're doing public domain material, then why not books from places like Project Gutenberg?

And then why not grab a cheap DVD burner and sell collections of the free material?  And hey, how about public domain movies?  Open Source games and software?  Operating systems?

Now, hypothetically, none of this is really bad, per se.  But as you expand the line, the shop becomes less specialized and the employees less helpful.  I mean, what does your local comic shop employee know about silent film?  Different Linux distributions?  Free video games?  The novels of the Bronte sisters?  How about sewing patterns or expired patents (like the water fuel cell) or...well, you get the idea.  The odds of finding someone willing to work for minimum wage AND who can figure out what people want to buy in all those fields is pretty minimal.

A business also has less to distinguish itself, and the startup costs are low enough that someone could undercut prices fairly readily.  So I (very unfortunately) don't see this as a workable model for a storefront comic store.

Where I see that sort of thing working would be in public and school libraries.  They always want to expand their audience and justify their existence, plus most of the needed technical and manpower resources are already available and often idle.  And I can't help but suspect that the library'll get some foot traffic if, for a nominal fee (or maybe covered in the existing budget), you could walk out with your own copies of:

- The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (http://www.archive.org/details/wonderfulwizardo00baumiala),
- A few issues of ACG's Young Heroes (http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/index.php?cid=148) and Charlton's Robin Hood adaptation (http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/index.php?cid=498),
- OpenOffice (installers http://why.openoffice.org/, or ready-to-run http://portableapps.com/apps/office/openoffice_portable)
- Big Buck Bunny (http://www.snotr.com/video/1301) and Corman's version of Little Shop of Horrors (http://www.archive.org/details/Little_ShopOf_Horrors.avi) on DVDs, and
- a sewing pattern for a stuffed penguin (http://www.burdastyle.com/patterns/cute-christmas-penguin).

That's not to mention CDs of music, audio books, games, lectures, and probably a whole bunch of other classes of media I'm completely missing.

I suppose a comic shop MIGHT be able to compete, if their setup was customized specifically for comics.  That is, if their printers churned out brightly-colored pages of the right size, with staples in the middle.  In that case, they'd be able (forced) to specialize and outperform the cheaper and more general approaches.
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narfstar

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Print on demand
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2009, 07:55:35 PM »

When I consider this for comic stores I think in terms of a printer that can at least make a typical saddle stitched comic that looks pretty much like one produced now. Higher end but not prohibitive. Comic shops now rely more on gamers than comic fans so I do not see any less helpful. I do think that you hit on a great idea for libraries. But they are government so they will never do anything right. I think how school libraries are rated on how old their books are. You can have a new copy of Tom Sawyer and it counts while one 20 years old would not. Promotes waste buying new copies of classics.
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Yoc

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2009, 08:13:20 PM »

Wow, what a wild idea John!  I LOVE IT!  :D
But... can you imagine the shit storm of lawsuits and editorials when someone tried it?
It wouldn't be Napster big but it would be big.  LOL
Just look at the resistance to Google's book scanning project.  (It's Google isn't it?)

-Yoc
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John C

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Re: Coloring Books or Pages
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2009, 09:47:32 PM »


When I consider this for comic stores I think in terms of a printer that can at least make a typical saddle stitched comic that looks pretty much like one produced now. Higher end but not prohibitive.


You're right that a dedicated machine would solve many of my problems.  If it spews out the nine (eight plus the cover) double-sided pages and whacks two staples in the middle, it'll be more expensive per unit than the bulk printers can manage, of course (what with the custom paper and smaller quantities of ink), but it'd also mean that you're not carrying stock of anything that doesn't sell, which removes the risk of "ordering" a new title.


Comic shops now rely more on gamers than comic fans so I do not see any less helpful. I do think that you hit on a great idea for libraries. But they are government so they will never do anything right.


...Some of them might.  Occasionally.

I actually figured it from the point of view that they were already paying the Internet and power bills, had the computers and printers sitting idle, and a staff of service people trained to find stuff.  It's certainly less of a stretch than the XBox tournament my local library now runs.  I mean, that's just admiitting defeat outright.


I think how school libraries are rated on how old their books are. You can have a new copy of Tom Sawyer and it counts while one 20 years old would not. Promotes waste buying new copies of classics.


Yeah, I think I've heard something to that effect.  And it's a shame, considering how much they must dump out, just to make room for "new" books and magazines.  Because certainly (even ignoring the classics that don't change, by definition), there couldn't possibly something of use to a kid that was published before he was born.  I mean, there's tons of firshand accounts of the Civil War in modern books, right?


Wow, what a wild idea John!  I LOVE IT!  :D


But the problem is sustainability.  I mean, I like the idea from a library standpoint, because (as mentioned) the pieces are already (close to) in place.  But from a retail standpoint, it's just something that'll spiral out of control and leave you with a store that...nobody really knows what they do, something with the Internet, maybe?

But yeah, the Internet Bookmobile idea is a great idea itself, and I'd love to see someone use that as a springboard for bigger and commercial projects.

It also occurs to me, thinking about those mall kiosks as a possible avenue, that a lot of those spots have the "custom storybook" products, where you feed in the rugrat's name, and little Stevie or Pomegranate now saves the day in a story illustrated to look nothing like him or her.  So why not (beyond the obvious tackiness) custom editions of "Yoc's Adventures through the Looking-Glass"?  It'd take extra work, but it'd certainly be doable.


But... can you imagine the shit storm of lawsuits and editorials when someone tried it?
It wouldn't be Napster big but it would be big.  LOL
Just look at the resistance to Google's book scanning project.  (It's Google isn't it?)


The key, I think, would that there'd have to be absolute disclaimers that nothing with a possibly-valid copyright can sneak through for purchase (unless it's licensed directly or through something like Creative Commons, I mean), and absolutely no customers can ever, EVER touch the equipment.

Like, when I mentioned music, I'm thinking specifically about artists like Jonathan Coulton, the bulk of whose work is available under a Creative Commons license (or if you're insufficiently geeky for JoCo, there's more mainstream-sounding Brad Sucks).  I'm sure that John at Magnatune, for example, would also be thrilled to be a part of that kind of program, and might be convinced to reduce his cut to get his artists out there.

That's Google's problem, here, actually.  They stupidly said that they should scan everything in libraries, then decide on the rights later.  Then when confronted about the rights, they decided that they'd only show excerpts where they didn't have the rights.  And that's wrong, in case anybody doesn't follow, because "a bunch of pages for people to read at their leisure" is absolutely not Fair Use, and Google doesn't have the right to copy (cough--copyright) those pages just because "information wants to be free" or somesuch nonsense.

Had they, instead, said that they'd only release pre-1923 books or those with explicit permission until they got their copyright footing, there wouldn't have been any problem.  I mean, had it been me, I wouldn't have hidden behind "don't be evil" so much as use Cory Doctorow and other "open source" authors as human shields...by which I mean that you use their works as a showcase illustrating the respect with which you'll treat modern works that still have owners.

Heh.  But that's another story entirely...
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