Comic Book Plus Forum
Comic And Book Related => Comic Book Plus Reading Group => Topic started by: The Australian Panther on April 02, 2023, 09:42:59 PM
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It's still 5:37 pm in New York and 04:09:52pm in London. Here in NSW its 7:40 am on Monday.
I am posting early because I will probably be out most of the day.
No comments on the book from me just yet. Enjoy!
Army War Heroes 22 [Introducing The Iron Corporal]
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=72297
Voyage to the Deep 1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=33693
Marco Polo 1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=40424
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Army War Heroes 21
I must admit, I'm not a huge fan of war comics. I appreciate the service that all of our military personnel do and have done, but I'm not really the target audience of these kinds of comics. But I was intrigued by the cover that promised 'a Yank in the Aussie army', so that had me reading on. It's also interesting that the stories are from WWII, though published in 1967. Not uncommon, of course, but I wondered if any Vietnam sensibilities would find their way into the stories.
Bushwhack Pass
I guess this was the sort of scenario that would happen between enemy forces, though there wasn't much of a story arc as such. Still, it showed how different strategies could play out when the odds are seemingly stacked against one side. The sudden arrival of the air force was convenient, but okay overall.
The Loner
Interesting premise of whether it's best to fight alone or with a platoon that you don't think is doing the job. As it says in the conclusion, most loners would have either been court martialled or given medals. I imagine there would have been more court martials. Although set in WWII, I wondered if this story was affected by growing sentiments since the Korean and Vietnam wars, regarding whether you should always follow the orders of commanding officers if you feel they are unjust. Though in this particular story, it seems that the loner thought the commanding officer was not up to the job.
Climb a Cliff - short story
I was trying to work out when this one was set. It mentions that the narrator was in Her Majesty's constabulary for 20 years in one of the small colonies. Even though it mentions 'colonies', it can't be Queen Victoria because it also mentions the Iron Curtain. If it's talking about Queen Elizabeth II, that would take the story into the 1970s. It's understandable that they don't mention an actual colony, but I had trouble placing the timeline. I'm also not sure about the politics. It's easy to look back on things with 21st century eyes and think that a story is politically incorrect, but there are still instances today of certain governments and organisations who weaponise different groups of local people for their own aims. Also, I think that's meant to be humour at the end, but it wasn't that funny.
The Iron Corporal
It was interesting to see something set in New Guinea, as it was one of Australia's main arenas of the war against Japan. However, I wasn't familiar with the American role. A quick google search just showed me that there were hundreds of thousands of Americans involved as well. Had the Japanese not been stopped in New Guinea, their next stop would have been Australia. In fact, the Japanese had already bombed Darwin in Feb 1942. But back to the comic! Apart from some 'good' old-fashioned Aussie fat shaming, it's a fairly interesting tale that shows the cost of war on the individual soldier and their families.
Overall
I wasn't crazy about the art, though it did the job. The lettering was quite poor and hard to read in places, especially in some of the narration boxes. The stories were okay, but not brilliant. Always good to read something different that you wouldn't usually read though.
Thanks Panther, for finding something with an Aussie connection.
Cheers
QQ
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Army War Heroes #22
Bushwack Pass
Basically an okay average-style war story, probably would have been better longer fleshing out the problems of fighting in that kind of situation.
The Loner
Interesting. Seems to be a bit lucky for Bideau (he didn't even get hit by the enemy) but it kind of works as a character study.
Climb A Cliff
Okay.
Introducing the Iron Corporal
Except no one calls him that and the reason isn't given till the next issue. Okayyyyyyy... Otherwise okay war story.
Promo
"Exciting war stories of frontline combat action!"
Well, how many exciting war stories do you hear about soldiers based at HQ? ;)
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Army War Heroes #22
Promo
"Exciting war stories of frontline combat action!"
Well, how many exciting war stories do you hear about soldiers based at HQ? ;)
Exciting if someone bombs the HQ :)
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True, QQ. But how often would that happen?
Mainly I was thinking of some stories from the staff of the Stars & Stripes in WWI (I've been indexing cartoons from the American Legions where some of these stories were retold) and while there were some amusing stories not much fell in the 'death-defying' vein. ;)
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Voyage to the Deep #1
Parts of this story remind me of Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea, an admiral in charge of an experimental submarine. Which came first?
The admiral thinks they will see feathered fish, furry fish, fish made of metal, and of flames.
Yeahhhhhhhhh... I don't think anything like those have ever been discovered.
A lot of telling rather than showing.
The enemy has tilted the Earth.
So the enemy is... God? I wonder if the writer is going to explain this or just handwave it away?
Handwave it is. *Jedi handwave* You will accept the nonsense about the enemy magically shifting the liquid core.
Yee gods and little fishies do they drone on about the destruction of New York. Was it the writer's wishful thinking? ;)
Divers in diver suits, at the base of Marianas Trench, leave the sub and aren't squished flatter than pancakes???
Funny how many science fiction writers lack any understanding of real science.
Of course, no explanation why the enemy were planning to destroy the Earth. Maybe if they'd been explained as aliens that would explain why they didn't care about the planet's fate.
What an awful story. The artist clearly went overboard to make it visually interesting, but you can only do so much.
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Thinking further about Voyage To The Deep I wondered if it was a post-divorce issue. (The Divorce is how Western Printing referred to the split between them and Dell.)
The time's about right, I think it happened in mid-1962, the writing not being up to Western's usual stuff indicates that as well.
If so it was an interesting time. Sorry if I ramble a bit here.
For those unaware, up till mid-62, Dell Publishing hired Western Printing to produce a comic book line for them. Western signed most of the licensing contracts, hired the writers/artists/etc. and printed the books. Dell put up the money, told them how many issues they should print of each book and put their brand on the books.
When Dell split with Western, they lost most of their comic content since Western held the licenses, and they had to hire their own writers/artists/etc. to produce new books.
Kind of funny since Dell had been the number one comic book company up till that point. (Western just created the Gold Key brand and kept going.)
So the similarity between Voyage To The Deep and Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea probably is not a surprise, the movie came out in 1961, the show wouldn't arrive till 1964, so it probably seemed a safe bet to "borrow" some ideas from.
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Voyage to the Deep
Well, in spite of a ridiculous premise, an unknown enemy that is never explained, and a purely fictitious understanding of science, I enjoyed this one more than the war comic. As SuperScrounge says, there is a lot of telling rather than showing in the writing, but I didn't mind some parts of it. I liked the stream of consciousness as Leigh imagined what was happening in New York. Some really interesting illustrations accompanied those sections, like the image of Leigh holding New York in his palm, and the view from his mind's eye.
Even though the science is ridiculous, at least it sounds sciencey. I have no idea what purpose Judith Hill, private secretary, served other than to hug people and look concerned. If they're going to include a token woman, they could at least have the token woman doing something. I wondered how all those scientists came up with theories and solutions so quickly. And who knew that skin divers could pop out of a submarine in the Mariana Trench with no ill effects?
I did learn something though. I'd never heard of a lampray before and had to look it up. Now I know what those ugly suckers look like.
I did like the art on the whole. There were some interesting images (as noted above), some great full-page pieces with interesting caption balloons (one like a ribbon), and some interesting panel placement on occasion.
It was interesting that it was bookended with a bit about Noah's Ark. I was confused by the opening page, as there's no mention in the Biblical account of two stars of Pleiades being removed temporary so the waters could gush from the heavens. On the last page, I had to look up the Angel Razel, as I'd never heard of him either, and it turns out he's an angel linked with Jewish mysticism. So maybe the mention of Pleiades also comes from there. In any case, it was an interesting parallel between the earth being destroyed by a flood in Noah's day, and now (1962) the possibility of nuclear annihilation.
For all its gaping plot holes, I actually enjoyed this one.
Cheers
QQ
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You know, I could have SWORN we did a discussion on Ol’ Sam a while ago. Maybe because it just seems like a good, obvious choice. Glanzman did a lot work for Charlton, and Dell...But if we did, I couldn’t find it.
Gotta say that MARCO POLO was my fave and the mini bio of Yoko Tani helped a lot. (It has been posted earlier and then removed.) One of those faces you KNOW you’ve seen but you just can’t figure out WHERE. The architecture (I guess you’d call it) of editing down a two hour movie to a comic book format has always impressed me.
Q.Q. I know you don’t like war comics, but if you have to check them out, Sam’s work is considered some of the best in the genre. He actually served in the war and his experiences made it into his work. In softcover, U.S.S. STEVENS collects his D.C. stuff from OUR ARMY AT WAR.
Now, of course, people are going to tell you that if you want to read a REAL well made war comic you HAVE TO go with the EC ones, TWO FISTED TALES, and FRONTLINE COMBAT. Harvey Kurtzman ran them and went for authentic, right down to the buttons on the uniforms and the firearms used. He says he wanted ‘war comics for people who didn’t like war comics’.
Later Marvel used it as a slogan for Sgt. Fury.
But you just know folks are going to open it up from there and recommend others. Mine would probably be Joe Kubert’s work for Sgt. Rock and Enemy Ace at DC (OUR ARMY AT WAR again and STAR SPANGLED WAR STORIES)
‘Super, I like where you went with that idea, Come to think of it, VOYAGE TO THE DEEP has the air of a divorce spat where the couple fights over who gets what Springsteen albums.
A nice selection, ‘Panther.
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Marco Polo
I didn't realize Marco Polo was a romance. ;) I found myself searching my memory of various Marco Polo retellings and I could not remember any love story or battle against a coup. What I could remember was mainly his retelling of his travels of a strange far-away land that Europe was unaware of. No great romances or great battles.
As for the story itself, basic Hollywood story, with a little too much telling for the reader.
Some of Marco's expressions seemed a bit odd. A problem with reference pics perhaps?
The Case of the Third Taxi
Uhhhhh... yeahhhh... weird.
What You Do In Spare Time
Eh, okay, I guess.
Save the Beasts
Hunting bad.
Lest We Forget: Theodore Roosevelt
Not bad, for such a short article.
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Q.Q. I know you don’t like war comics, but if you have to check them out, Sam’s work is considered some of the best in the genre. He actually served in the war and his experiences made it into his work. In softcover, U.S.S. STEVENS collects his D.C. stuff from OUR ARMY AT WAR.
Now, of course, people are going to tell you that if you want to read a REAL well made war comic you HAVE TO go with the EC ones, TWO FISTED TALES, and FRONTLINE COMBAT. Harvey Kurtzman ran them and went for authentic, right down to the buttons on the uniforms and the firearms used. He says he wanted ‘war comics for people who didn’t like war comics’.
Later Marvel used it as a slogan for Sgt. Fury.
But you just know folks are going to open it up from there and recommend others. Mine would probably be Joe Kubert’s work for Sgt. Rock and Enemy Ace at DC (OUR ARMY AT WAR again and STAR SPANGLED WAR STORIES)
Thanks for that, Morgus. For me, I guess it depends on what kind of war stories. I'm not so crazy about battle scenes, though obviously that is the bread and butter of war. If there's something interesting about the story, I'll read it. For example, I've recently discovered an old Australian comic from the 1950s called 'The Phantom Commando'. Frew Comics who publish Phantom comics have included some of the old stories in compilations and I like those. But there's always a bit of a mystery or some evil plan the Phantom Commando has to thwart. So I guess they're not straight war comics.
I also own a volume of Superman war comics ('Superman: The War Years 1938-1945' compiled by Roy Thomas) and I enjoyed that, but mainly from a pop culture perspective. The enemy is very stereotyped and it's very 'Ra ra the red, white and blue', but it was interesting to see how Superman's creators were warning about Hitler way before America joined the war (not surprising as they were Jewish) and also how Superman was then used to keep everyone's spirits up and help promote the cause.
Maybe I should give some of the other war comics a try.
Cheers
QQ
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Thinking further about Voyage To The Deep I wondered if it was a post-divorce issue. (The Divorce is how Western Printing referred to the split between them and Dell.)
Thanks for the extra info, SuperScrounge. I didn't know any of that, so you could be onto something. Poor Dell. :(
QQ
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An old friend called and we got talking about the comics we had in our misspent youth. Here’s another that’s too good not to pass along.
“The War That Time Forgot”. It was in DC’s STAR SPANGLED WAR STORIES in the early 60’s or so. The idea was that there’s this island where the dinosaurs are still living and American soldiers keep landing on it and have to fight the dinos to survive. Gnarly Andru and Esposito art.
Sort of changed my life. Uncle Bob saw me reading them and told me about this black and white movie called KiNG KONG, and that I should sit up and watch it with him...made me a huge fan of vintage movies and RKO.
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Well, gee, two of my least favourite things in one, War comics and Charlton! I guess overall this is more of a Sam Glanzman thing, though I was grateful for the other artists in Army War Heroes, who were a cut above some of the usual Charlton fare. Juan Dalfiume has an appealing "scratchy" style, not dissimilar to Glantzman's, though I was disappointed to find we never get to discover why the Corporal is Iron. I don't expect Tony Stark would have been worried.
I agree with QQ, the fat shaming is annoying and unimaginative to say the least, was there a "Thin Earl" in the company that "Fat Earl" had to be distinguished from? He was a good fighter, so nobody cared if he was fat? So if he hadn't been a good fighter, everyone would have been disgusted by his chubbiness? Yikes! Okay, as war comics go, I suppose this isn't too bad, but I'm with Morgus when he says EC was the place to go. Two Fisted Tales and Frontline Combat set the bar very, very high indeed, though I'm quite fond of Kubert's "scratchy" style on Sgt Rock. Perhaps all that cross hatching made the action seem grittier and more realistic? I think we can overlook the Howling Commandos for now!
PS, if you're interested in lampreys, check out this true historical story...
http://the-history-girls.blogspot.com/2013/11/a-surfeit-of-lampreys-and-other.html?m=1
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The Sam Glanzman trilogy!
Voyage to the Deep #1
It took me a long time to warm to Sam Glanzman (or as we knew him, S.J.G.). I was a fan of the elegant Raymondesque line exemplified by artists like Al Williamson and Wallace Wood. Glanzman's rough-hewn inking struck me as crude. One of the things that got me to re-examine him was, oddly enough, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Voyage to the Deep. Glanzman had drawn the movie adaptation (Four Color #1230) in 1961 and its similarities to 1962's Voyage to the Deep series are, ahem, noteworthy. In both books Glanzman drew fascinating underwater lighting effects, great monsters, and exciting action. Not to mention unique montage sequences for VTD, of which more in a moment.
I'm guessing that whoever was running Dell after the "divorce"--I believe the editor was Leonard Cole--thought VBS would make a great series. Dell didn't have the rights to the movie, so they came up with a concept inspired (cough cough) by the original. The script of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea wasn't exactly a classic, but it was miles above that of Voyage to the Deep #1.
First off, the idea of a skin-shedding submarine that expands and contracts is so stupid that even as a twelve-year-old I couldn't swallow it. Second, the "clever" Enemy's plan to destroy the USA would destroy themselves as well. In fact it would destroy the whole world. The same holds true for the Enemy's stunts in subsequent issues. Unless the Enemy are extra-terrestrials clearing the globe for redevelopment the whole idea is even less believable than having the Van Allen Belt catching fire as in the movie.
My third, and strongest, objection is that the story is padded to an insane degree. The totally irrelevant two-page montage of what the submariners might see at extreme depths is only a warm-up for a fourteen-page fantasy of what might happen, of which nine full pages are devoted to Admiral Leigh imagining New York being destroyed. No doubt about it, this endless sequence gives Sam Glanzman a chance to draw everything from Babe Ruth to the Metropolitan Museum in a parade of apocalyptic images. I was especially struck by the torrent sweeping cars down 42d Street. But heaven help us, the entire sequence, has absolutely nothing to do with the story because none of it actually happens! It's this bizarre dream sequence that convinces me the author was Don Segall, he of the "seemingly drug-induced" comic book plots. Incidentally, one scene always makes me laugh. The Admiral listens stoically as a talking head describes how half the nation has been destroyed in the flood, causing millions of deaths. But when the expert says New York may be next, that's when the Admiral perks up. 97% of the population of the southeastern states drowned, fine. But "Not New York!"
Yet with all this I like the series, dammit! Just because it's so weird. And because I like Sam's underwater artwork.
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“The War That Time Forgot”. It was in DC’s STAR SPANGLED WAR STORIES in the early 60’s or so. The idea was that there’s this island where the dinosaurs are still living and American soldiers keep landing on it and have to fight the dinos to survive.
Having read the first volume of the Showcase Presents reprint, it was actually multiple islands and dinos even showed up in Europe, in at least one story. It was only later that it was retconned into being one Pacific island where all the adventures took place.
Did anyone ever do a story where the Blackhawks fought dinos? ;)
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'Super, if they didn't it was only because they didn't think about it. THAT would have been totally cool.
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Voyage to the Deep
It seems very like someone's not been taking their meds, though I don't know whether it's the writer or the Admiral. For a start, the Proteus is entirely infeasible, which should end the story before it's begun. The powers of The Enemy are pretty darn infeasible too, not to mention that they would certainly fall victim to their own evil intents. The dialogue doesn't even remain grammatically correct in some places, and yet, if you let it, it all seems somehow gripping, drawing you into a strange world of furry fish, and obsessed submariners.
Thank the lord, then, that Sam Glanzman has enough imagination to rise to the occasion and pull out all the stops so this crazy tale can carry through to it's entirely incredible conclusion. It's an artistic triumph that renders this insane rubbish tolerable, all praise SJG! If I'd've seen this when I was 12, I'd probably think the whole thing was pretty cool. As my mental age hasn't progressed that much since 1962, I'm gonna give it a tick and a big gold star. ;D
Nice work, Sam. Thanks for posting, Panther.
All the best
K1ngcat
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Voyage to the Deep
It seems very like someone's not been taking their meds, though I don't know whether it's the writer or the Admiral. For a start, the Proteus is entirely infeasible, which should end the story before it's begun. The powers of The Enemy are pretty darn infeasible too, not to mention that they would certainly fall victim to their own evil intents. The dialogue doesn't even remain grammatically correct in some places, and yet, if you let it, it all seems somehow gripping, drawing you into a strange world of furry fish, and obsessed submariners.
Thank the lord, then, that Sam Glanzman has enough imagination to rise to the occasion and pull out all the stops so this crazy tale can carry through to it's entirely incredible conclusion. It's an artistic triumph that renders this insane rubbish tolerable, all praise SJG! If I'd've seen this when I was 12, I'd probably think the whole thing was pretty cool. As my mental age hasn't progressed that much since 1962, I'm gonna give it a tick and a big gold star. ;D
Nice work, Sam. Thanks for posting, Panther.
All the best
K1ngcat
I'm with you, K1ngcat. The story was ludicrous, but the art made it kind of okay. I didn't even mind the stream-of-consciousness New York section. I enjoyed it in a weird sort of way :D
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Marco Polo
This is quite a novelty. I can't say I'm familiar with the movie, but the adaptation is a very classy piece of work. I'm happy to accept the suggestion that Dick Giordano inked the whole thing, as it has a lighter touch overall, and there's a lot of detail in some of the facial expressions. The movie itself was made in Italy, and dubbed into English for the American release. More info and some stills appear at
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0055141/
a bio of Rory Calhoun at
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_Calhoun
and Yoko Tani at
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoko_Tani
I have no idea whether there's any historical accuracy involved but it's a good yarn, and it translates quite well into comic form. I feel sorry for Princess Amuray but Polo's obviously a self-absorbed jerk who doesn't deserve her.
The rest of the comic is typical, rather weak Charlton fare. Your Role In The Cold War is apparently go out for sports and keep in shape, which lets me out, so sorry to disappoint! Save The Beasts is a nice idea, though with the benefit of hindsight we can see how many readers were taking note. Is that meant to be a panda in the last panel? I'm sure there was more to Teddy Roosevelt than this one page suggests, I'm glad to know that he eventually eased up on the bear hunting! Full marks to Glanzman and Giordano for the main feature, though.
An unexpected treasure, thanks for posting
All the best
K1ngcat
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MARCO POLO
Marco Polo Feature
I've never seen the movie and I don't know how accurate it is. I suspect Hollywood may have added the ill-fated love story. The art was good, but I couldn't really get into the story. The action probably worked a lot better in the movie. It must have been an amazing adventure for the real Marco Polo, and the Europeans must have been fascinated with his tales of the Far East on his return. It's easy to forget what a difficult journey that would have been at the time. The poor princess was probably better off without him. He would have had her strapped to a horse, hiking up a mountain in no time.
The Case of the Third Taxi (short story)
I wasn't sure what to make of this. At the start, I was thinking it was short fiction. But by the time I got to the end, I was wondering if it was one of those 'truth is stranger than fiction' stories. I googled Mildred Bowers, but couldn't find someone matching that description. If it is fiction, it sort of fizzles out by the end.
Your Role in the Cold War
I couldn't really see what this had to do with the Cold War, as nothing about that was mentioned. Unless it was to lead a fit, active and responsible life to show that the American way of life is better than the one those 'commies' have. Probably not bad as a public service announcement, but would the kids who were heading for trouble be swayed by this comic?
Save the Beasts and Theodore Roosevelt
Interesting piece on the need for wildlife reserves. However, I hadn't realised that president and famous hunter Theodore Roosevelt was instrumental in changing American opinion about not over-hunting and creating reserves. (I assume that's true, because a comic book wouldn't lie ;)) I thought it was then a bit ironic that the very brief article on Roosevelt on the next page included the fact that he hunted grizzlies.
Did he decide that reserves were a good idea before or after he was part of an African expedition that killed or trapped about 11 400 animals for the Smithsonian Institute?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian%E2%80%93Roosevelt_African_Expedition
I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Cheers
QQ
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However, I hadn't realised that president and famous hunter Theodore Roosevelt was instrumental in changing American opinion about not over-hunting and creating reserves.
Hunters understand the need for reserves. Once people realized that animals can go extinct people kind of realized that if you want to hunt or fish you kind of want to make sure there will be future generations that you can hunt or fish.
I thought it was then a bit ironic that the very brief article on Roosevelt on the next page included the fact that he hunted grizzlies.
He was a manly man! If I remember correctly someone shot him at a campaign event and he still spoke for an hour or so. ;)
That being said look up the origin of the teddy bear and how his refusal to shoot a bear led to it.
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Army War Heroes.
I do not enjoy war comics and find this one a waste of paper. Some of the DC titles with soldiers and dinosaurs and a couple of others were entertaining. But this nonsense?
I'm beginning to think I'm really old and grouchy as so many comics just don't interest me. I tried some EC. At least the art on many of the stories was very good but the war stuff left me cold. Not for me.
VttD.
Even worse nonsense than the war comic. I did enjoy a couple of the larger illustrations. The full page of the sub being dragged to the depths by the beastie. The half page of the sub electrocuting the giant lamprey thingy. The story is simply cobblers. I've not seen the tv series of VttBS
Marco Polo.
I haven't seen the film so I don't know if the treatment here is faithful to the screen version. I do know that this comic version isn't a patch on the Doctor Who Marco Polo:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_(Doctor_Who) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_(Doctor_Who))
There was a German series of comics based on the adventure of a character called Marco Polo:-
https://www.comics.org/series/53071/ (https://www.comics.org/series/53071/)
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Marco Polo #1 (and only)
I'm going to swim against the current on this one. I will accept that Dick Giordano redrew the hero's head on the cover, but I believe Sam drew the rest of it, and the interiors, by himself. I offer pages 5, 8, & 11 as examples. They all show Glanzman's signature rough-hewn ink style. Giordano was a "featherer" who could put a slick, even transition on the edges of black areas. Glanzman wasn't much into feathering. He preferred getting halftones with a sort of brush stippling effect (hard to describe; look at the BG on page 7, panel 1, to see what I mean). When he did feather his strokes were thick and irregular, as on the hero's shirt in panel 1 of page 8. It's possible a few faces were redrawn by someone else. But taking page 8 again, all the heads have a Glanzman ink line. I suggest that most of what seems to be un-Sam-like is Glanzman struggling to capture Rory's likeness and to keep Yoko looking pretty. As always I warn that these are educated guesses and I welcome conflicting analyses.
I don't have much to say about the story. Like others I've never seen the movie. Has anyone here seen it? The story here stands up well enough as a historical action adventure. Glanzman does a good job with the action and the local color. Joe Gill's script has the leaden prose style common to most of his scripts, but at least, having been based on a film, the story made sense--something not common to most Joe Gill scripts.
There's little left to say about the random fillers, except that it's sad to read the glowing description of wildlife preservation in Africa in light of the current extinctions, near-extinctions, and large-scale poaching.
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QQ said,
I hadn't realised that president and famous hunter Theodore Roosevelt was instrumental in changing American opinion about not over-hunting and creating reserves. (I assume that's true, because a comic book wouldn't lie ;)) I thought it was then a bit ironic that the very brief article on Roosevelt on the next page included the fact that he hunted grizzlies.
Theodore Roosevealt was known as 'Teddy' and his preoccupation with Bears was the inspriation for the iconic 'Teddy Bear'. So if you had one for a toy as a child or gave one to a child or grandchild, thank Teddy Roosevelt.
I actually have one sitting on my lounge that I rescued from landfill.
I've been away for Easter - I'm just reading all the comments. Will have a bit to say at the end of the week.
I think it's great that we have such diverse opinions!
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However, I hadn't realised that president and famous hunter Theodore Roosevelt was instrumental in changing American opinion about not over-hunting and creating reserves.
Hunters understand the need for reserves. Once people realized that animals can go extinct people kind of realized that if you want to hunt or fish you kind of want to make sure there will be future generations that you can hunt or fish.
I thought it was then a bit ironic that the very brief article on Roosevelt on the next page included the fact that he hunted grizzlies.
He was a manly man! If I remember correctly someone shot him at a campaign event and he still spoke for an hour or so. ;)
That being said look up the origin of the teddy bear and how his refusal to shoot a bear led to it.
Thanks for the extra info, SuperScrounge. I can understand hunters wanting reserves so that the animals survive for future generations. Similarly, with rivers, lakes or parts of the ocean that have been over-fished. It's mainly hunting purely for sport that I'm not in favour of. If a hunter is killing an animal for food, clothing etc, I can understand that. And I know sometimes animals have to be killed because they're a danger to people or livestock, or because there are too many for the habitat. But I don't like the idea of big game hunting when the aim is just to kill an animal for a trophy or to prove you're a great hunter. I didn't even like the marlin fishing story last fortnight, unless the fisherman took it home and used it for marlin steaks.
I'm not sure what I thought about Roosevelt and his group going on safari for the Smithsonian. I had heard he was a big game hunter, but didn't realise that the aim of that safari was to bring back specimens for the Smithsonian. I was shocked at the number of animals trapped or killed on that expedition - about 11 400. Okay, there were also a lot of insects in that number, but lots of mammals and other wildlife too. On the one hand, a lot of westerners at that time would have been unfamiliar with African animals, so you could build an argument about it being a learning experience. Maybe by learning about them, they can be helped in the long run. I just don't like seeing pictures of people standing over a dead elephant, rifle in hand, looking pleased that they've brought down the poor animal.
Rant over. Cuddling my cavoodle as we speak :D
Cheers
QQ
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I've been away for Easter - I'm just reading all the comments. Will have a bit to say at the end of the week.
I think it's great that we have such diverse opinions!
Hope you had a good break. We've run amok while you've been gone. :D
Cheers
QQ
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But I don't like the idea of big game hunting when the aim is just to kill an animal for a trophy or to prove you're a great hunter.
Human beings have had a hunting instinct for pretty much ever, and even though we have farms and ranches to raise food to eat, the hunting instinct doesn't just go away.
I suppose you could make the argument that hunting for old comic books or shopping for sales is how some people deal with it, but others need to go out and hunt an animal. Instinct can be a powerful thing. (No, I'm not a hunter, but I've known some.)
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‘Crash, I know what you mean about those Charlton scripts. When we went into town to shop, mom and dad would pick us up a comic or two, and on the way home, we’d read them to make the trip back to the farm go by. And depending on the time of month and the publishing distribution patterns, the DC and Marvels would be gone and you’d get (yup) Charlton.
Now you tell me. Because I never figured it out. What was worse? Charlton romance, war, or western? Sincerely. I do NOT know.
BUT, you DID know you are dealing with ‘less than stellar’ when even mom was hip to them.
Every now and then the stories would totally break down in terms of sense or spelling. We’ve all seen it with the company. Gibberish right?
We’d laugh and tell mom, she’d call it either ‘Cement mixer Mondays’ or ‘Wild Turkey Tuesdays’. Meaning they had gotten into the bottle on Tuesday when they tried to ‘write’ the thing, or they had dumped a dictionary written on little blocks into a cement mixer on Monday and pulled out the woods at random to make up the script. Kingcat, it could have been 'Without meds Wedesdays', too.
What a company.
You know ‘Super, I like that idea about collecting and hunting for comics (or records, or books, or whatever) as a substitute for taking a gun and killing an animal. I bet there is a lot to that. How often have we heard each other talk about ‘hunting down an issue’ or things like that?
Me? Lost the taste for killing things. We had to go over to another farm and help destroy a herd of cows that had the barn roof fall in on them. 40, 50, I don’t know how many.
A lot. It was all hands on deck there were so many, so everybody got a rifle that could handle one.
Anyway, you create an imaginary line from the ear to the opposite eye, and from the other ear to the other opposite eye.
It forms an ‘x’.
Then where that ‘x’ intersects, you aim the rifle. And boy, does it work. The animals legs collapse under it like a card table.
Now I didn’t go vegetarian or anything, I know where my supermarket meat comes from and how. And anyway I try to eat less red meat. You know, increase dietary fibre. Decrease dietary fat.
I don’t get morally outraged if you go on an elephant hunt, but I think it’s a tragic waste. I mean, a person is an adult, do what you like.
But yeah, hunting for a nice House of Mystery or Strange Tales or Tales from the Crypt is to me more fun than doing that card table thing on a giraffe or anything. Cleaner too.
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But I don't like the idea of big game hunting when the aim is just to kill an animal for a trophy or to prove you're a great hunter.
Human beings have had a hunting instinct for pretty much ever, and even though we have farms and ranches to raise food to eat, the hunting instinct doesn't just go away.
I suppose you could make the argument that hunting for old comic books or shopping for sales is how some people deal with it, but others need to go out and hunt an animal. Instinct can be a powerful thing. (No, I'm not a hunter, but I've known some.)
I disagree, very much, that hunting for collectors' items is even an activity remotely related to hunting for animals. Hunting for animals was a way to obtain food for oneself, or a man's family. So finding collectors' items to sell to collectors would be, at least, remotely related to the instinct to hunt animals to provide food (and clothing (skins) and material to make tools (bones). To Me, collecting published reading matter enjoyed as entertainment, and trying to get one example of each those that were issued, and keeping them for himself, fulfills the need for (feeling good by having an example of all the entertainment one can get from the procuror's favourite (or one of his favourite few) entertainments. And that is more related to being secure in assuring regular entertainment, than ensuring a feeling of doing one's job as a provider for one's family and himself. For many obsessed collector's, it may be the perceived security of chronically obtaining additional good feelings, which may seem to be a more dependable source of those good feelings than than that achieved through dealings with people, which provides higher highs, but also can sometimes bring pain.
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I just wanted to briefly weigh in the whole hunting discussion. I'm not a vegetarian and I understand the instinct for hunting for food, but I do strongly disagree with hunting for the sake of collecting trophies or to prove your skill at killing animals. I also disapprove of poaching for "valuable" parts of animals and leaving them to die, as in the case with elephants and rhinos, or harvesting parts of animals for questionable "medicinal" value. And so on.
I can eat a chicken that someone else has killed for me, but for myself I can hardly harm a fly, and I'd've soon starved if forced to provide for myself. I had a friend whose husband kept rabbits and would skin and butcher them on the kitchen table in front of his children, so it certainly takes all sorts, but for better or worse, that's not for me.
QQ, I wasn't sure what you were cuddling for a moment, but I discover that Cavoodles are what we in the UK call Cavapoos. Cute. I own a chocolate Labrador who's a spoiled princess, and however many cuddles she gets, she can always manage a few more! ;)
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Army War Heroes: 1967? We were just becoming aware of the Vietnam Conflict and it was just heating up enough that all of us knew someone who had gone. It certainly wasn’t a time that I was looking for army comics. In fact, I had probably quit reading Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandoes as well as Our Army at War with Sgt. Rock, staples of my junior high school years. Any chance I had to buy comics was devoted to Marvel and I dismissed Charlton Comics as “junior varsity.”
But I have to say that Army War Heroes, at least this issue, was a revelation. Sam Glanzman’s artwork was an incredible blend of color and the kind of detailed cross-hatching I loved in black and white illustrations. And the story of the Iron Colonel had a high enough body count to add some verisimilitude to the narrative. This issue was an eye-opener in more ways than one: 1) knocking the props out from under my non-mainstream (aka DC/Marvel) bias and 2) reminding me that war comics must have still been selling at a time the ‘Nam situation was becoming increasingly less popular.
Voyage to the Deep: I didn’t realize how much exploration must have already gone on in the Marianas by 1962. Not being my field, I thought the exploration was mostly modern. So, imagine my surprise when Ganzman’s visions of the deep-water marine life proved a delightful mixture of reality and speculation (at least, some of them seemed speculative to a layperson like me). I thought the dialogue was banal or ponderous, depending on the moment, but the artwork (again, with the detailed cross-hatching beyond most comic art with which I was familiar at the time) carried the show. Of course, the Sharknado-like panels with marine life swimming above the skyscrapers seemed preposterous (can anything in a story about an elongating submarine be preposterous?), but they provided visually compelling images that could easily amuse. And I loved the full page splash panel on our p. 14 of the PDF, as well as the vision of the hand holding New York in the two upper panels of p. 21. Indeed, the plot was a great excuse for vivid imaginative NYC disasters. Of course, the story is preposterous and its speculative science even more preposterous. But it served as a great opportunity to celebrate Glanzman’s imaginative art.
Marco Polo: This one-shot featured the kind of bold inking I usually liked. But the detailing I admired in the other two comics rendered by Glanzman seems missing. The theory that he turned his pencils over to Dick Giordano seems likely. The detail on Rory Calhoun’s face in the right-bottom panel of our p. 25 certainly does reflect Glanzman’s approach, however. I also was immediately of how uneven hand lettering can be when compared to the more precise but somewhat sterile digital lettering of today.
As for the story, it was mostly predictable. I’d hate to have the bruises under Marco Polo’s chain mail after being hit with all of those swords on p. 13 of our PDF! But our protagonist seems entirely unphased. I wasn’t really thrilled with the story, but the graphics made up for it.
I liked the text adventure about the taxi, sort of a One Step Beyond-style story, but couldn’t stomach the Cold War feature.
All in all, a terrific selection and worth reading!
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QQ, I wasn't sure what you were cuddling for a moment, but I discover that Cavoodles are what we in the UK call Cavapoos. Cute. I own a chocolate Labrador who's a spoiled princess, and however many cuddles she gets, she can always manage a few more! ;)
Hi K1ngcat, I'd heard of cockapoos, but I didn't know our cavoodles were your cavapoos. We have oodles of oodles in Australia - cavoodles, moodles, spoodles, groodles and labradoodles being the main ones. I think they've become popular because they have lovely temperaments and are low-allergy (usually). And I love chocolate labs. Keep spoiling your princess. Here's a pic of my mischievous 8-year-old, Holly :D
Cheers
QQ
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Voyage to the Deep: I didn’t realize how much exploration must have already gone on in the Marianas by 1962. Not being my field, I thought the exploration was mostly modern. So, imagine my surprise when Ganzman’s visions of the deep-water marine life proved a delightful mixture of reality and speculation (at least, some of them seemed speculative to a layperson like me). I thought the dialogue was banal or ponderous, depending on the moment, but the artwork (again, with the detailed cross-hatching beyond most comic art with which I was familiar at the time) carried the show. Of course, the Sharknado-like panels with marine life swimming above the skyscrapers seemed preposterous (can anything in a story about an elongating submarine be preposterous?), but they provided visually compelling images that could easily amuse. And I loved the full page splash panel on our p. 14 of the PDF, as well as the vision of the hand holding New York in the two upper panels of p. 21. Indeed, the plot was a great excuse for vivid imaginative NYC disasters. Of course, the story is preposterous and its speculative science even more preposterous. But it served as a great opportunity to celebrate Glanzman’s imaginative art.
Interesting comments, Johnny. I liked the stream-of-consciousness New York sequence in that comic too. Lots of imaginative art and panels. Even though the story was completely preposterous, as you mention, I liked it best of the three because of the art.
Cheers
Quirky Quokka
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Army War Heroes #22
Johnny's comment reminded me of the comic book cultural divide in the late 1960s. Marvel, and to a lesser extent DC (mostly following Marvel's lead) aimed for the youth demographic with a generally more liberal attitude while Charlton remained staunchly conservative. This can be attributed mostly to Joe Gill. While Dick Giordano brought in some younger writers with differing viewpoints, Gill still wrote 90% of Charlton's comics. Gill was definitely of the "get offa my lawn" generation. Romance comics, spook comics, hot rod comics...they all featured short-haired upstanding young men giving long-haired hippy nogoodniks the what-for.
I am no fan of war comics in general, but Charlton's war magazines were especially dreary. Indistinguishable heroes fought cardboard cutout Japs, Krauts, and VC in an endless succession of plotless 8-pagers. Most of Army War Heroes #22 is the same old same old.
"Bushwhack Pass" is the typical Charlton jumble. A bunch of stuff happens. A "shut mah mouf'" Southerner named Reb appears in midstory and throws a grenade a few pages later. Things blow up. It bugs me when writers don't bother to get even the stock Germanisms right: Americaner instead of Amerikaner, Dumbkopf instead of Dummkopf. Though Gianni Dalfiume's art is well-drawn he cuts so many corners some of the action is confusing. Our page 4 is a good example.
"The Loner" is more of the same, without the benefit of Dalfiume art. Again the fake German is confusing. On page 13 the general tells the captain to do something quickly--schnell--then follows the command with Achtung! I appeal to our German-speaking members: isn't Achtung! used in situations like "Attention!" or "Look out!" rather than "Get going!" as it is here? The captain replies, Jah (sic), Herr General...mach schnell! This sounds to me as if the captain is telling the general "Hurry up!" Perhaps I'm being pedantic. P.S.: was it a German Army regulation that all generals must wear a monocle?
Back in the day, Will Franz gained a reputation of writing more "mature" war stories. His "Iron Corporal" and "The Private War of Willy Schulz" were held up as examples. By the time these features appeared I'd given up on everybody's war comics so I never read them.
"The Iron Corporal" is mature in one sense: a helluva lot of people die messily. The rest of the story doesn't cover new ground. The character interplay isn't much different from that in Sgt. Rock's company, and the enemy soldiers are still faceless ciphers who show up to be killed. I was brought up short by the abrupt ending. I expected a "continued on 2d page following." I wonder if they intended to run the second chapter in this issue but scheduling issues pushed it back. I was bursting with curiosity about why Ian Heath is called The Iron Corporal. So I downloaded the next couple of issues. The answer sure wasn't what I expected.
In the next issue Ian is struck by enemy fire but the bullets bounce off him. Realizing he can't pretend to his comrades that this didn't happen, Ian reveals his origin story. The son of a rich industrialist in the steel business, he was visiting Australia before the War. There some street thugs jumped him and thrashed him to within an inch of his life, breaking all his ribs. Doctors and scientists, funded by Ian's dad, installed an iron ribcage to replace the smashed one. Ian recovered and is now better than new--except that if he goes into the water the extra weight makes him sink like a stone.
It sounds like the start of a superhero war story. However in the issues I sampled the ribcage is mentioned only once and it never plays a role in the stories. Very strange. Overall the strip disappointed me. Yes, the body count remained high and the gritty stories had more personality than the typical Charlton short. In general though they were bargain versions of Kanigher Sgt. Rock stories.
As for the art, I found Sam Glanzman's work disappointing compared to our other Reading Group selections. It seems rushed and the crappy printing does him no favors.
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QQ, I wasn't sure what you were cuddling for a moment, but I discover that Cavoodles are what we in the UK call Cavapoos. Cute. I own a chocolate Labrador who's a spoiled princess, and however many cuddles she gets, she can always manage a few more! ;)
Hi K1ngcat, I'd heard of cockapoos, but I didn't know our cavoodles were your cavapoos. We have oodles of oodles in Australia - cavoodles, moodles, spoodles, groodles and labradoodles being the main ones. I think they've become popular because they have lovely temperaments and are low-allergy (usually). And I love chocolate labs. Keep spoiling your princess. Here's a pic of my mischievous 8-year-old, Holly :D
Cheers
QQ
Thanks for the pic of Holly, she's a real cutie! Wish I could reciprocate but I have a new tablet with no pics of my lovely Lab on it (as yet!) I was intrigued by the breed names you mentioned and had to look some of them up. I like Groodle, as apparently the alternative is to call the pooch a "Golden Poo" which is much less appealing! Strange to think I was a "cat person" for sixty-five years, since my choccy Amber came into my life, I'm a total convert. I promise photo to follow (eventually!)
All the best
K1ngcat
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Army War Heroes #22
Johnny's comment reminded me of the comic book cultural divide in the late 1960s. Marvel, and to a lesser extent DC (mostly following Marvel's lead) aimed for the youth demographic with a generally more liberal attitude while Charlton remained staunchly conservative. This can be attributed mostly to Joe Gill. While Dick Giordano brought in some younger writers with differing viewpoints, Gill still wrote 90% of Charlton's comics. Gill was definitely of the "get offa my lawn" generation. Romance comics, spook comics, hot rod comics...they all featured short-haired upstanding young men giving long-haired hippy nogoodniks the what-for.
I am no fan of war comics in general, but Charlton's war magazines were especially dreary. Indistinguishable heroes fought cardboard cutout Japs, Krauts, and VC in an endless succession of plotless 8-pagers. Most of Army War Heroes #22 is the same old same old.
"Bushwhack Pass" is the typical Charlton jumble. A bunch of stuff happens. A "shut mah mouf'" Southerner named Reb appears in midstory and throws a grenade a few pages later. Things blow up. It bugs me when writers don't bother to get even the stock Germanisms right: Americaner instead of Amerikaner, Dumbkopf instead of Dummkopf. Though Gianni Dalfiume's art is well-drawn he cuts so many corners some of the action is confusing. Our page 4 is a good example.
"The Loner" is more of the same, without the benefit of Dalfiume art. Again the fake German is confusing. On page 13 the general tells the captain to do something quickly--schnell--then follows the command with Achtung! I appeal to our German-speaking members: isn't Achtung! used in situations like "Attention!" or "Look out!" rather than "Get going!" as it is here? The captain replies, Jah (sic), Herr General...mach schnell! This sounds to me as if the captain is telling the general "Hurry up!" Perhaps I'm being pedantic. P.S.: was it a German Army regulation that all generals must wear a monocle?
Back in the day, Will Franz gained a reputation of writing more "mature" war stories. His "Iron Corporal" and "The Private War of Willy Schulz" were held up as examples. By the time these features appeared I'd given up on everybody's war comics so I never read them.
"The Iron Corporal" is mature in one sense: a helluva lot of people die messily. The rest of the story doesn't cover new ground. The character interplay isn't much different from that in Sgt. Rock's company, and the enemy soldiers are still faceless ciphers who show up to be killed. I was brought up short by the abrupt ending. I expected a "continued on 2d page following." I wonder if they intended to run the second chapter in this issue but scheduling issues pushed it back. I was bursting with curiosity about why Ian Heath is called The Iron Corporal. So I downloaded the next couple of issues. The answer sure wasn't what I expected.
In the next issue Ian is struck by enemy fire but the bullets bounce off him. Realizing he can't pretend to his comrades that this didn't happen, Ian reveals his origin story. The son of a rich industrialist in the steel business, he was visiting Australia before the War. There some street thugs jumped him and thrashed him to within an inch of his life, breaking all his ribs. Doctors and scientists, funded by Ian's dad, installed an iron ribcage to replace the smashed one. Ian recovered and is now better than new--except that if he goes into the water the extra weight makes him sink like a stone.
It sounds like the start of a superhero war story. However in the issues I sampled the ribcage is mentioned only once and it never plays a role in the stories. Very strange. Overall the strip disappointed me. Yes, the body count remained high and the gritty stories had more personality than the typical Charlton short. In general though they were bargain versions of Kanigher Sgt. Rock stories.
As for the art, I found Sam Glanzman's work disappointing compared to our other Reading Group selections. It seems rushed and the crappy printing does him no favors.
Intrigued by your insights, crash, I never read enough Charlton to divine Joe Gill's political affiliations, perhaps the current screen incarnation of Peacemaker hasn't fallen too far from the tree after all?
Which makes me wonder who actually wrote the scripts for the first Captain Atom adventures? They seem more Dove-ish than Hawk-ish, do you suspect Ditko did more than just the artwork? I'd like to think so.
Thanks for a new viewpoint
All the best
K1ngcat
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Intrigued by your insights, crash, I never read enough Charlton to divine Joe Gill's political affiliations, perhaps the current screen incarnation of Peacemaker hasn't fallen too far from the tree after all?
Peacemaker was one of Joe Gill's crazier ideas. "The man who loves peace so much he is willing to fight for it!" I wouldn't be surprised if Joe decided--or was told by Dick Giordano--to hop on this "peace" bandwagon. The best he could come up with was a schizophrenic supposedly "peace loving" diplomat who always seems to find situations which can only be solved by blowing stuff up with the help of his secret super-sophisticated arsenal (the sort of thing every peace-loving diplomat would accumulate). I understand DC turned Peacemaker into a self-righteous neofascist, which aligns much better with the character. The change probably saved Christopher Smith a lot of money on therapy bills.
As for Captain Atom, his early stories were all by Gill. There was a preponderance of Cold War stuff. The more mainstream superhero Cap of the Giordano period were written by David Kaler.
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I understand DC turned Peacemaker into a self-righteous neofascist, which aligns much better with the character.
The current iteration of the character is not DC's first attempt. There were, I think- at least two earlier Peacemaker 'limited' series by DC.
Fits DC's current, all dark, all nasty ethos to a tee.
I'm no fan of either the current Peacemaker or the current Suicide Squad or the current 'reading' of Amanda Waller either in the books or the films.
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Army War Heroes #22
"The Iron Corporal" is mature in one sense: a helluva lot of people die messily. The rest of the story doesn't cover new ground. The character interplay isn't much different from that in Sgt. Rock's company, and the enemy soldiers are still faceless ciphers who show up to be killed. I was brought up short by the abrupt ending. I expected a "continued on 2d page following." I wonder if they intended to run the second chapter in this issue but scheduling issues pushed it back. I was bursting with curiosity about why Ian Heath is called The Iron Corporal. So I downloaded the next couple of issues. The answer sure wasn't what I expected.
In the next issue Ian is struck by enemy fire but the bullets bounce off him. Realizing he can't pretend to his comrades that this didn't happen, Ian reveals his origin story. The son of a rich industrialist in the steel business, he was visiting Australia before the War. There some street thugs jumped him and thrashed him to within an inch of his life, breaking all his ribs. Doctors and scientists, funded by Ian's dad, installed an iron ribcage to replace the smashed one. Ian recovered and is now better than new--except that if he goes into the water the extra weight makes him sink like a stone.
It sounds like the start of a superhero war story. However in the issues I sampled the ribcage is mentioned only once and it never plays a role in the stories. Very strange. Overall the strip disappointed me. Yes, the body count remained high and the gritty stories had more personality than the typical Charlton short. In general though they were bargain versions of Kanigher Sgt. Rock stories.
Thanks for the extra info on the Iron Corporal, Crashryan. That would have made a much more interesting story.
Cheers
QQ
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I understand DC turned Peacemaker into a self-righteous neofascist, which aligns much better with the character.
The current iteration of the character is not DC's first attempt. There were, I think- at least two earlier Peacemaker 'limited' series by DC.
Fits DC's current, all dark, all nasty ethos to a tee.
I'm no fan of either the current Peacemaker or the current Suicide Squad or the current 'reading' of Amanda Waller either in the books or the films.
Yes, it's a shame so much of the current DC offerings are dark. I tend to buy back issues or facsimile copies of older DC comics. Some current ones are okay, but some of the covers put me off immediately. You just know it's going to be a dark story. If images look really sinister, they tend to stick in my mind and give me the creeps. Give me my 1967-1977 Batgirl omnibus any day :D
Cheers
QQ
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QQ said,
Give me my 1967-1977 Batgirl omnibus any day :D
QQ, Both Paw Broon and I are huge fans of the even earlier, [1950's] original Batwoman and Batgirl.. Who was Batwoman's Robin. I'm sure you would enjoy that one too. 8)
There is an omnibus in existence somethere.
cheers!
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original Batwoman and Batgirl.
Bat-Girl, actually, with a hyphen.
In the mid-'70s, in the pages of Batman Family, Batwoman was brought out of retirement for a few stories. Afterwards Bat-Girl briefly joined the Teen Titans before their book got cancelled.
Sadly, I don't think Bat-Girl and Batgirl ever met, nor did Batwoman and Bat-Girl have more adventures together before... the Bat-editors decided to have Batwoman killed.
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QQ said,
Give me my 1967-1977 Batgirl omnibus any day :D
QQ, Both Paw Broon and I are huge fans of the even earlier, [1950's] original Batwoman and Batgirl.. Who was Batwoman's Robin. I'm sure you would enjoy that one too. 8)
There is an omnibus in existence somethere.
cheers!
Thanks Panther. I did borrow a volume from our library called 'Batman in the Fifties' that included a lot of those original stories, including some with the original Batwoman and Batgirl.
https://www.amazon.com/Batman-Fifties-Various/dp/1779509502/
Is that the one you meant? Interesting to see the evolution of the character, but Barbara Gordon will always be my Batgirl :D
Cheers
QQ
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original Batwoman and Batgirl.
Bat-Girl, actually, with a hyphen.
In the mid-'70s, in the pages of Batman Family, Batwoman was brought out of retirement for a few stories. Afterwards Bat-Girl briefly joined the Teen Titans before their book got cancelled.
Sadly, I don't think Bat-Girl and Batgirl ever met, nor did Batwoman and Bat-Girl have more adventures together before... the Bat-editors decided to have Batwoman killed.
Hi SuperScrounge, I had to go and check which one I had. Looks like the hyphen was dropped by the time Barbara Gordon took over. This is the volume I have.
https://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Bronze-Age-Omnibus-Vol/dp/1401276407/
Really love that era. I'm glad Barbara Gordon is back in the saddle now, and the new versions are okay, but I don't love them as much. Hard to keep up with all the iterations of the Batman family. Some of them have become very dark.
Cheers
QQ
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heh heh heh, ‘Crash. I liked that ‘get off my lawn’ comment. Good one.
Kingcat I never noticed the conservative slant either on the Charlton comics until you guys pointed it out. I can see it now, but at the time really didn’t give it any mind. DC used to put MAKE WAR NO MORE at the end of their war comics, and I thought it was just one of those sensible things that people would print. Like billboards of the day that told you to ‘Buckle up and drive safely”
Q.Q. and ‘Panther, I know what you mean about Bat(-)girl and DC being dark. Was going over the original Dr. Strange issues with my grandson and would find myself laughing out loud at Stan’s comments from time to time. It almost came as a shock.
here’s how much I’m turned off the whole thing; I had to LOOK UP the Peacemaker thingy to find out it WAS a TV show. For all I knew it was another movie I didn’t care about. I wish Shazam had come out better.
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Remembering the Original Batwoman
https://www.boomermagazine.com/batwoman/
then there is this, for fans of Mexican wrestling movies!
The Batwoman (La mujer murcielago)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0235608/?ref_=vp_close
Bat-girl Elizabeth Kane (Earth-One)
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Elizabeth_Kane_(Earth-One)
I think the omnibus I referred to was fan-made so probably won't appear on Amazon.
cheers!
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Well, an interesting fortnight!
I posted examples of Sam's work because I'm 'a huge fan'. I choose three that are somewhat obscure to bring them to wider attention.
It was circumstantial that 2 of them were from Charlton.
I'm only going to review Sam's work in these books.
Army War Heroes 22 [Introducing The Iron Corporal]
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=72297
QQ said,
In fact, the Japanese had already bombed Darwin in Feb 1942.
Most Australians have no idea how close the Japanese came. They sank a Hospital ship off Brisbane and sailed midget submarines into Sydney Harbor and all shipping on the east coast had to be escorted.
Morgus said, Q.Q. I know you don’t like war comics, but if you have to check them out, Sam’s work is considered some of the best in the genre. He actually served in the war and his experiences made it into his work. In softcover, U.S.S. STEVENS collects his D.C. stuff from OUR ARMY AT WAR.
Couple of things about that.
1/ DC never bothered to collect Sam's U.S.S. Stephen's work. I don't know the full story. Jim Shooter, during his term at Marvel, got Sam to redraw most of it and that work was published by Marvel.
A Sailor's Story / Marvel Graphic Novel #30 (March 1987), a 60-page true account, which he both wrote and drew, of his time on the U.S.S. Stevens during World War II.[16] Unusually for Marvel's graphic novel line, it was released in hardcover rather than as a trade paperback. A trade paperback edition followed, together with a sequel, A Sailor's Story, Book Two: Winds, Dreams, and Dragons, which continued the story up to the end of the war.[9]
He also did other war work for Marvel.
2/ U.S.S. Stephens is up there in my top ten of comic masterpieces. It was only a 2 or 3 page insert in Kanigher's War books. But! There were [to my recollection] few battles or warfare. Instead the stories were portraits of the everyday life of the crew and the ship.
3/. It was one of the few [the only?] regular comic strips that was autobiographcal.
The Iron Corporal - this was brought to my attention because there exists in Australia a black and white collection of all the Iron Corporal strips.
Otherwise I would have missed it, since browsing through Charlton's war books does not appeal.
I might find myself doing that to track down all of Sam's work.
Yes, it goes without saying that the Charlton production values - if that's the right word- detract from Sam's work, as they did for all the creators who worked for Charlton.
And I know his work is very individualistic and not to everybody's taste.
Personally, For this one I can forget the narrative and just look at the illustrations. Unlike some artists he does detailed backgrounds and environments. His anatomy is good and his faces expressive. There is life and energy in his work.
Sam did a lot of work for Charlton's War books. And two books for Dell, COMBAT [which we have on CB+ and a book on Arial warfare I forget the name of and can't find when searching on CB+]
Same started his career in the golden age doing superheroes with his brother, but after returning from his national service never worked on Superheroes again. I think the war had a huge effect on his psyche. His work never glorifies war. Much of it is documentary - like Combat - and focuses on the people and the traumas and heroics they went through.
Sam's work has always left a strong impression on me.
The story concerns a platoon whose mission is to find and destroy a nest of big guns firing on soldiers landing on the beach.
In the first four pages we get introduced to the characters and one dies suddenly and senselessly. Then another on page 5., The story has been entirely concerned with the very human protagonists and the real costs of war.
"We have to take some risks. How is this bloody war going to be won if we don't take risks?" The theme of a lot of Sam's War work.
I like the graphic detail of the last three pages. An abrupt ending - no happy wrap-up here.
The story is by Will Franz, not Sam. Anybody know anything about him?
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Voyage to the Deep 1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=33693
Superscrounge said,
Thinking further about Voyage To The Deep I wondered if it was a post-divorce issue. (The Divorce is how Western Printing referred to the split between them and Dell.)
The time's about right, I think it happened in mid-1962, the writing not being up to Western's usual stuff indicates that as well.
Well, the writing is certainly up to Don Segall's usual. Maybe Don and Sam thought, there is no copyright or 'book' on this, lets pull all the stops out!
QQ said, I liked the stream of consciousness as Leigh imagined what was happening in New York. Some really interesting illustrations accompanied those sections, like the image of Leigh holding New York in his palm, and the view from his mind's eye.
Exactly!
Morgus said,
You know, I could have SWORN we did a discussion on Ol’ Sam a while ago. Maybe because it just seems like a good, obvious choice. Glanzman did a lot work for Charlton, and Dell...But if we did, I couldn’t find it.
I'm sure we did, but not in the reading group because I looked through the list of past choices and couldn't find these.
Kingcat said,
I agree with QQ, the fat shaming is annoying and unimaginative to say the least, was there a "Thin Earl" in the company that "Fat Earl" had to be distinguished from? He was a good fighter, so nobody cared if he was fat? So if he hadn't been a good fighter, everyone would have been disgusted by his chubbiness?
Fat-shaming is so now. Back then, that was just a nickname. Most were much worse than that. And not necessarily literal. For instance in Australia, any Redhead was automatically nicknamed Blue. Normal bonding behavior for groups of men, I assure you.You wouldn't want to know some of my school nicknames.
And there was nothing there to indicate that they found him 'disgusting'
CrashRyan said, It's this bizarre dream sequence that convinces me the author was Don Segall, he of the "seemingly drug-induced" comic book plots.
I think you are quite right, and probably Sam enjoyed working with him, because he gave Sam something wild to draw and stretch out with.
Kingcat said, Thank the lord, then, that Sam Glanzman has enough imagination to rise to the occasion and pull out all the stops so this crazy tale can carry through to it's entirely incredible conclusion. It's an artistic triumph that renders this insane rubbish tolerable, all praise SJG! If I'd have seen this when I was 12, I'd probably think the whole thing was pretty cool. As my mental age hasn't progressed that much since 1962, I'm gonna give it a tick and a big gold star.
We are on the same page! That's exactly why I chose it.
See, when it comes to comics like this, I am not really concerned with how realistic the story is, particularly when the art is this good.
If I go to an art gallery for an afternoon, I'm not concerned with story, although in another sense all art tells a story, but I'm there because I want to admire the artist's visual information and craft.
I can pull Sam's work out and enjoy it all over again, as I can with Kirby, Steranko, Ditko and others.
I think comics gave me an appreciation for visual art - which I have a degree in as it happens. [No brag, just fact - Walter Brennan]
For me, Sam is up there with Kirby with his Single and Double-Page spreads.
Well, I haven't got more to say on this one, you've said it all for me.
Cheers!
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Marco Polo 1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=40424
That cover is odd. It looks like several pieces were pasted on top of one another, not a sngle drawing.
So it's a movie adaption and that's why it's not historically accurate and has a love story.
Looking for the movie on YouTube, I found 3 Marco Polo movies, starring
1/ Horst Buckholtz,
2/ Gary Cooper
3/ Don Diamont, Jack Palance, Oliver Reed
But I think this is the Les Baxter soundtrack to this one. Look at the logo!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRItMVlnjLU&list=OLAK5uy_mwWXsv31oU59zQKg98ZmrJpcZzZ6cHyWg
Hmm! A first! Never wrote a comic review while listening to the soundtrack before.
The movie starts in the middle of the full story.
The coloring in this scan is above Charlton's average.
The writing is dull. Obviously they were given a script that closely followed the movie. Sam's art gives the script its only life and energy. It's restrained for Sam. He couldn't stretch out on this one.
The script makes what should be a good action-packed story dull.
We know that Marco Polo didn't marry on his trip, so they had to part, but it's still a strange ending for a Hollywood movie.
Also, How did Charlton end up doing a movie adaptation? It's a bit of a one-off.
Better than the average Charlton, but I think Dell would have done a better job.
Save the Beasts
Things aren't always what they seem.
Currently there are animal rights groups in the UK and Europe wanting to ban Hunting Preserves in Africa.
However, statistics show that where animals are in preserves and hunting is under strict control, numbers are increasing and so is the health of the animals. Also the fees that the hunters pay make the preserves economically viable.
Outside the preserves, poachers are hunting animals indiscriminately to extinction.
Personally, I'm no fan of hunting, but I think it would clearly be counterproductive to ban hunting preserves.
I think that's probably what Teddy Roosevelt had in mind. He was a bit of a visionary.
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My man, THANK YOU for mentioning Bat Woman (1968). This is one of my favourite Mexican wrestling/horror/crime movies. Laugh a minute and totally berserk. Rene Cardona directs, the man who gave you great Santo movies. Maura Monti strolls around in a leather bikini, mask and cape. Cool cars. It’s even in colour.
HOW it got away from the attention of DC’s lawyers I have never understood, but am thankful for. A minor copyright miracle, right up there with the Filipino Batman and Robin steal. You even get Creature from the Black Lagoon painted red and complete with oxygen tanks on the back.
These days you can get it in a DVD double edition with PANTHER WOMAN...where all the bad girls have hair do’s like Elvis’ girlfriends in his movies.
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HOW it got away from the attention of DC’s lawyers I have never understood, but am thankful for.
Seems that it did. On IMDB the writers credits are;-
'Alfredo Salazar Bob Kane Bill Finger'
So apparently they just took the money and ran!
Alfredo Salazar's writing credits are worth looking at.
Alfredo Salazar
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0757667/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
Seems he was responsible for the 'Santo and Blue Demon' movies.
Hmm! Is that the inspiration for DC's character Blue Devil?
Cheers!
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Kingcat said,
I agree with QQ, the fat shaming is annoying and unimaginative to say the least, was there a "Thin Earl" in the company that "Fat Earl" had to be distinguished from? He was a good fighter, so nobody cared if he was fat? So if he hadn't been a good fighter, everyone would have been disgusted by his chubbiness?
Fat-shaming is so now. Back then, that was just a nickname. Most were much worse than that. And not necessarily literal. For instance in Australia, any Redhead was automatically nicknamed Blue. Normal bonding behavior for groups of men, I assure you.You wouldn't want to know some of my school nicknames.
And there was nothing there to indicate that they found him 'disgusting'
Perhaps disgusting is too strong a word, but just because "fat shaming" is "now" doesn't mean it's okay, any more than the awful racial stereotypes in most of CB+s collection is to be ignored just because it's so "then." What's considered normal bonding behaviour for groups of men is currently proving to be the downfall of London's Metropolitan Police Force, and the country's Armed Services, most of whom are being found to be institutionally racist, mysoginistic and homophobic while most of the men involved dismiss their attitudes as harmless banter.
No offence meant, and don't get me wrong, I'm not a snowflake or a woke leftist radical. I just know kids are mean to one another and they grow up to be people who are mean to one another, and it's all accepted as normal and if you don't take all the insults and slights without complaint then you're just not playing the game. I'd like to think the human race can do better.
Don't worry, I'm used to being disappointed! :D
All the best
K1ngcat
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Seems that it did. On IMDB the writers credits are;-
'Alfredo Salazar Bob Kane Bill Finger'
First of Kane and Finger are listed as uncredited, so their names aren't on the movie.
Second IMDB is not the most reliable source. A few years ago they gave the Alfred in the movie serials the last name Pennyworth, despite that name not being invented until the 1960s. Currently they use the last name Beagle which wasn't created until the 1950's and, I believe was used twice, once in the comic books, & once in the comic strip.
I think some fan just added the Kane & Finger attribution since they are both considered to be Batman's creators, although that wasn't the case until just a few years ago. So if DC had complained only Kane would have gotten a credit, which, as pointed out, wasn't on the movie.
Most likely this Mexican movie just floated under DC's radar. Also DC hadn't used Batwoman for around 6 years, so they may not have considered it important enough to make a fuss about.
Hmm! Is that the inspiration for DC's character Blue Devil?
Probably not. More likely they named it after the college mascot for Duke University.
Heck Marvel had good luck using the mascot for the University of Michigan. ;-)
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Kingcat said,
I agree with QQ, the fat shaming is annoying and unimaginative to say the least, was there a "Thin Earl" in the company that "Fat Earl" had to be distinguished from? He was a good fighter, so nobody cared if he was fat? So if he hadn't been a good fighter, everyone would have been disgusted by his chubbiness?
Fat-shaming is so now. Back then, that was just a nickname. Most were much worse than that. And not necessarily literal. For instance in Australia, any Redhead was automatically nicknamed Blue. Normal bonding behavior for groups of men, I assure you.You wouldn't want to know some of my school nicknames.
And there was nothing there to indicate that they found him 'disgusting'
[/quote]
In Canada, during the 1940s and 1950s "Red" was, by far, the most common nickname for redheads, but was neutral, and merely descriptive, rather than derogatory. So, I didn't mind being nicknamed "Red". But, I DID mind being called "freckle-Face", which WAS derogatory when dubbing a boy, but a tearm of endearment when addressing a girl.
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SuperScrounge, you are probably right.
No new selection today. we are running late, so there will be one by late tomorrow. I am on it.
Cheers!