Comic Book Plus Forum
Comic And Book Related => Comic Talk => Topic started by: srca1941 on July 26, 2008, 09:57:35 PM
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http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080726-comiccon-jms-archie.html (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080726-comiccon-jms-archie.html)
Also from http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080726-comiccon-dcu-guide.html (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080726-comiccon-dcu-guide.html):
DiDio then announced that DC had acquired the rights to the Archie superhero characters, and the characters will be "incorporated into the DC Universe in The Brave and the Bold, to be written by J. Michael Stracynzski.
"We're going to do two issues per origin, create the characters fresh in the DC Universe," said Stracynzski. "Not the Hangman's cousin third removed, but the Hangman. Bring those characters, fully-fleshed into the DC Universe."
"But we're not stopping there," said DiDio. "This is about expanding the DC Universe; making it bigger and better."
"How many people are fans of the Milestone characters?" DiDio asked.
"Well guess what? We're going to be bringing the Milestone characters into the DC Universe proper," said DiDio, mentioning characters like Icon, and saying that Static will be joining the Teen Titans.
-Eric
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I wish that I cared more about this news.
I might support it, but at the moment I am one of those long term readers that DC discarded during Crapdown.
I seem to remember Phabox or Yoc making predictions about how important it is to get those scans saved now rather than later.
B. :-\
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How odd. I wonder what the motivation (business or artistic) was for doing this. Was another company looking to purchase the characters, and this is happening to block them out?
They're remaking the characters (again), so they're not using the established histories. The personalities are going to change, because that's what modern writers do. By modern artistic standards (which I happen to dislike, but they're there), the costumes aren't particularly good. And it's not like the characters are sufficiently well-known that merely putting Fly-Man on the cover is going to generate sales.
So...what? Are they just going to be exiled to a dark corner of the DCU to mostly team with each other, like the Fawcett, Quality, and Charlton characters are? Will they get to twiddle their thumbs until the next universe-rending crisis needs some sacrificial lambs? If so, that's not money well spent. It would've been much cheaper and easier to have some intern create one-offs, or revitalize existing characters who are similar.
Milestone, I understand. Minorities are poorly represented in the DCU, and it's easy to throw new faces like Static into the Titans to fix that. But what do the Archie heroes bring to the table, if not their long histories?
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Acquiring Milestone heroes, I understand, but Archie... (well, that explains why Reed Man couldn't publish Jack Kirby's The Fly in Strange issue 4)
Let's see... DC already have Fawcett, Quality and Charlton heroes, they also have their 52-earth multiverse - which includes Vertigo Earth and parallel incarnations of Superman, Batman & co -, and now, they have Archie's superheroes to integrate inside their mainstream universe which interacts with their multiverse. They already had too much, now they're getting more than too much.
I don't think DC needed to acquire Archie's heroes. Their mainstream universe was already hard enough to deal with, so how are they gonna deal with more superheroes on the same continuity? They could at least give them a Earth.
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DC is crap.
Nuff said. ;)
Sorry but I hate em.
(Well, except for Firestorm).
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:::whew::: Elsewhere a few people are celebrating this development like it is the best news of the year and all my eyes can do is roll in their sockets. I am glad that some of us here are looking at the obvious downside to this deal. Look at how DC has treated their own home grown characters? Why would DC not mess up the Archie Heroes?
I decided that I am not even going to waste my money supporting this -- the books will be released in trade editions that will end up at various local libraries -- and the cheapie boxes will be bountiful at conventions.
However, does anyone know if DC actually bought the characters outright, or just has the right to long term use?
My only concern in any of this, is that the MLJ scans are safe. DC writers can turn The Shield or Capt. Flag into apologists for all I care, but as long as the old scans are safe, big deal what DC does.
B. >:(
hostile...
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The MLJ heroes were among my First loves in comics.
The goofy Radio Comics versions. Especially the henpecked Web and Steel Sterling.
*Note I was 12 or something but I had the good taste to be impressed by Dick Giordano's version of The Black Hood so give me that.
Anyways part of me is excited to see them back on the stands but another part is groaning at what is almost for sure going to be a disappointment.
-Yoc
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The copyrights have expired, DC cannot renew them now, so our collection is not going any where. l have a suspicion it is not so much that DC need more characters that they want to cut down on potential competition. Either that or we can look forward to DC killing of any potential with 2 billion crossovers, multiverse story arcs, and yes no doubt they will get their own earth if they manage to get used at all.
Although we might be able to host the PD comics, the PD characters that are out there for new and upcoming talent to use is rapidly shrinking. One of the reasons why we have a public domain in the first place is so that after a set period of time the copyright material will become available for the public to use. With comics it is starting to look like this will soon be an idea of the past, there will be no PD characters since even the ancient ones will be tied up with IP rights, trade mark and legal battles over ownership. l am surprised DC has not acquired the rights to the Yellow Kid yet, they could do with some decent humour titles.
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DC can't retroactively claim copyright to things that've lapsed.
Sorry, let me rephrase that. They can, but it wouldn't hold up in court without a massive change to copyright law, and Congress is too busy throwing money at mismanaged mortgage companies, this week. They can threaten, but the proper response is "here's my proof it's public domain, where's your proof of copyright?" Even mighty Time/Warner has to back down in the face of proper paperwork.
So no, don't go breaking the servers out of fear. But do download the books anyway (at a leisurely pace), because they're pretty good, on the whole. Fu Chang isn't badly written at all, as long as you don't mind cultural ignorance. MLJ also had a lot of historical firsts, like the first legacy hero, the first flag-draped hero, and so forth.
As for my personal feelings, I don't really care what DC does with them. The incarnations and copyrights they bought (assuming they did buy it--sounds like there's confusion on that point) are their property to dispose of as they like. Whether they're going to make the Shield the JLA's Captain America, lock the Mighty Crusaders in the same basement as the Freedom Fighters and the L.A.W., throw them all in as guest stars, or end Final Crisis by killing them all, well, its their money and time. And they're being treated as if they're new characters, so it's not like they're going to "break" the '60s or '80s Jaguar or Web.
I'd prefer it if they did something fun with their investment, of course, but DC and Marvel (and Image and Dark Horse and...well, you get the idea) don't appear to have been in the business of "fun" for quite a few years, now, for the most part.
I'm still really curious WHY they made the deal, though. It just doesn't seem like good business move for them unless there's a complicated master plan to use them beyond "Stracynski thinks they're cool filler for B&B."
I'd say that the Fawcett, Charlton, and Quality purchases were all well worth the price--and Charlton might not even count, since it was bought as sort of a "birthday present" for Dick Giordano. But for the money, DC got significant revenue from Shazam!, Watchmen, and Blackhawk (which nobody remembers now, but ran for decades). They got even more mileage out of the Freedom Fighters, Blue Beetle, and Captain Atom (and don't forget Nightshade in Suicide Squad).
But the Archie characters? Eh. I don't see them raking in the big bucks. There's probably a reason they've (almost?) never been in print for more than a few years at a time, after all, right? So why go to the trouble of acquiring them?
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From what I've read elsewhere, Archie still owns their Heroes -- score!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
B. :D
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Addressing a few points from different posts:
"DC can't retroactively claim copyright to things that've lapsed."
I don't think that even crossed DC's mind and I don't understand why anyone would even think it had. It probably has more to do with Archie giving-up on the characters and trying to make one last buck off them, and DC seeing potential there to try something new with The Shield and friends. DC had a respectable run (not great or fantastic but "respectable") with them before with the "Impact" imprint, so maybe they're willing to give them another shot and see what happens.
"here's my proof it's public domain, where's your proof of copyright?"
Stupid question here, but how exactly do you physically prove something is Public Domain? A renewal on a copyright? Sure, no problem, there's physical proof of that. But finding "proof it's Public Domain"? Isn't that kind of impossible by the simple nature of it being Public Domain?
"the PD characters that are out there for new and upcoming talent to use is rapidly shrinking"
Not really. The Public Domain characters are, and always will be, there for anyone to use. The only thing that's shrinking in regards to those characters is the potential stories a creator can tell and how you can market them (for as long as the current Trademarks last). You can still use The Black Terror, Arrow and Fighting Yank if you want, you just have to watch-out for copyright infringements and "The Trouble with Trademarks" (one of my favorite episodes of Star Trek).
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Proof that something has lapsed into the public domain is (mostly) a matter of showing pages in the Catalog of Copyright Entries where the work would, but does not, appear. Surrounding years are always a good idea, too, because the Copyright Office was sometimes more lenient on the renewal period.
If a Cease and Desist order shows up, it would also be a good idea to have someone (like a copyright lawyer in the Washington area, but not necessarily) check and copy the physical Library of Congress records, in case there's a transcription error.
This isn't legal advice, by any means, but unless a company has proof of infringement at hand, any lawyer is going to back down (at least to "let's work this out amicably") when you say "it wasn't renewed in 19XX, so why do you think it's not public domain?" It shows that, if you're in the wrong, it's not malicious and happened due to unclear records, rather than your ignorance.
(I did half-forget about !mpact, by the way, but this seems like such a different approach that I'd be surprised that the previous commercial failure would make them think of ever touching the characters again. But if Archie still owns them, I guess that makes some sense...though integrating continuity is a little weird.)
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This is nothing new .Anybody remember impact comics? a dc imprint that published THE SHEILD THE FLY THE JAGUAR and other titles.This was in the early 90's. I dont think any of them lasted a year.
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This is nothing new .Anybody remember impact comics? a dc imprint that published THE SHEILD THE FLY THE JAGUAR and other titles.This was in the early 90's. I dont think any of them lasted a year.
I have a full set of the Impact version of the Shield tucked away in my bedroom -- it was actually the only book in the series that I could tolerate without yawning.
B.
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Folks,
I put forth that, in the grand scheme, it's not the characters per se, but the quality of the writer and/or artist, and mostly the writer that makes comics, well...., good. Pretty pictures with no purpose will catch an eye for a bit, but the writer's skill is what keeps them coming back.
What DC needs is more costumed heroes. They just don't have enough. After the create them, and overcreate them, and kill them off and bring them back, what they need is more characters. Right.
I tried to read Countdown. I had no idea who was who, what their motivations were, and I sure as hell wasn't going to read a bunch of sub-series and spin-offs. Life's too short. More characters, that's what they need. Uh-huh.
Minority characters are under-represented in comics because, by and large, their books don't sell. While people are trying to solve the riddle of the non-selling minority titles, they may want to give a little consideration to the fact that the current generation of comic readers is probably the last. The percentage of new and young readers is apallingly low because this medium is off kid radar. Do not lament this passing! There are really no more pulps (those digests don't count!), no more 78 RPMs, and very little 12" vinyl. I haven't heard a lot of new radio dramas (at least no in the US.) How about you? Dime novels? Popular singers who look like real people?
Time moves forward. We can't deal with the technology because is appears faster than we can learn to ethically cope with it.
Enjoy what we've got here. That "new stuff" isn't meant for us (or anyone with a brain). We've got a "golden" opportunity to catch up on.
--Dave
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There are really no more pulps (those digests don't count!), no more 78 RPMs, and very little 12" vinyl. I haven't heard a lot of new radio dramas (at least no in the US.) How about you? Dime novels? Popular singers who look like real people?
Time moves forward. We can't deal with the technology because is appears faster than we can learn to ethically cope with it.
Enjoy what we've got here. That "new stuff" isn't meant for us (or anyone with a brain). We've got a "golden" opportunity to catch up on.
--Dave
Well said sir! I was thinking this earlier today -- I could care less about mainstream "new material" because in most cases I am actually seeing the "old material" for the very first time and therefore to me, it is new! Time is indeed passing and one day when comics have transitioned to a majority digital medium, we will chuckle and remember the "good old days, which stay new" in the treasures we are now able to obtain thanks to generous scanners and sites such as GA-UK.
Another thought crossed my mine also -- the fact that upon hearing that DC gained the rights to use the MLJ heroes, some of us spoke up in the negative. I do not think this should be lost on people and in fact, it is most telling of how DC is perceived. Where Marvel still has some gloss of excitement, Dark Horse some sense of class, Image some hint of the new; DC has earned itself a reputation for spitting on its long time readers by plying a plethora of gimmicks at such high levels in marketing their pyramid of wares, that a gallon of $4 gasoline appears not only reasonable, but of possessing more value than any single issue of 52, Crapdown, or Final Cri$i$ combined.
B. :-\
The melodramatic
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misapper -
"I put forth that, in the grand scheme, it's not the characters per se, but the quality of the writer and/or artist, and mostly the writer that makes comics, well...., good. Pretty pictures with no purpose will catch an eye for a bit, but the writer's skill is what keeps them coming back."
I sort of agree with you here, except I'ld say "storytellers", not "writers' or "artists". You need both to be good, since comics are a visual medium. A great writer doesn't make lousy artwork look better, and a great artist can't make a weak story read better. If either is poorly done, the comic simply isn't good.
Regarding minority heroes: I think the problem is that many simply aren't that interesting to read about. There are exceptions (Icon and Static), but most are created to be third-tier characters like Firebird, Living Lightning or Rage from the Avengers. At best, minority heroes, when done in an ethnic setting as they are in most cases, are nice in small doses for a mostly white audience, but in a long-running series it doesn't work.
For example: One of Spider-Man's greatest stories is the "drug issues" from way back when. Can you imagine if Spidey dealt with those problems month-in, month-out? It would get old and boring, and people would stop buying the comic because a single theme was being beaten to death. That's the problem with most minority characters. They are placed in a setting that's interesting for a few issues, but boring when it's month after month.
"While people are trying to solve the riddle of the non-selling minority titles, they may want to give a little consideration to the fact that the current generation of comic readers is probably the last. "
I've been hearing that line for decades, and it gets funnier each time.
"The percentage of new and young readers is apallingly low because this medium is off kid radar."
There are very simple solutions to overcome that problem, but nobody, not fans nor professionals, want to hear them because it means taking some steps backwards. Comics can reach kids if they wanted to, but the entire industry keeps making the wrong types of changes.
"There are really no more pulps (those digests don't count!), no more 78 RPMs, and very little 12" vinyl. I haven't heard a lot of new radio dramas (at least no in the US.) How about you? Dime novels? Popular singers who look like real people?"
Things change, they evolve into other things. Entertainment is eternal. Just because 78's and LPs are gone doesn't mean music is dead. The Pulps may be gone but people still read fiction. You don't hear radio dramas because people don't want to listen to them and prefer to watch tv. And sorry to burst your bubble, but ugly people don't sell. You never see people get excited about seeing an ugly baby, do you?
"We can't deal with the technology because is appears faster than we can learn to ethically cope with it."
I can deal with new technology with no problem. In most cases, when something new appears, I'm thinking "it's about time".
I look forward to see what DC tries with the Archie Heroes, and I hope it's done well. Do I expect it to sell as well as Batman, The JLA or Superman? No, of course not, but if they have a nice run like Captain Marvel (not Mar-Vell) and Blue Beetle have had, that would be good enough. Besides, it's not like Archie was doing anything decent with these characters anyway. The last time I saw Archie use any of them, they were treated like jokes and that's just not worth my time to read.
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Well i no longer buy new comics but i would hate to see them die,i hope to one day see my own in print.But having said that, i cant argue that in thier current state they dont deserve to die !the magic is gone. I once read a interview with Alex Toth in which he slams modern comics and everything he said was spot on.
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bchat--
I will agree that the "storyteller" label is much more accurate. In thinking about it, implying that artists don't contribute as much as writers would negate the work of several artists who have done strips such as Ferd'nand and Henry without words. Also, to not acknowledge the composing style of Miller and Eisner would be a slight to the talent there.
I Think we're saying the same thing about growth and evolution, although I'm sure you'd agree that the rack after rack of manga appearing at your local bookstore is not the answer. Speaking with comics retailers, all indications are that manga in America is rooted firmly, but will not continue to be as faddish as it is now. I've spoken to some folks who are trying to figure out ways to liquidate some manga product. As far as your laugh at my prediction of an end to the comics market: I think I stated badly that the profile of the readership will change (just as the profile of music and cinema fans has changed.)
I've been digging into the new wrinkle regarding the Phantom. Moonstone has been publishing the character for some time. Dynamite has announced that it has secured the rights and will also publish the character. Gentile at Moonstone has indicated that they will continue their publication for at least two more years.
Now tell me, what kind of mess is that? How can one develop a character? First, King features keeps the stories under tight editorial control, and secondly, this sort of think can and will confuse the readers, or perhaps turn them off because of "dueling publishers" and competing and confusing narrative lines. Either way, it shows a lack of a wiilingness to protect the artform from really bad commerical decisions. (Here's where one can insert the present discussion on the merits of the Archie-owned characters to the DC multiverse orgy.)
Regarding the part of your post that addressed the minority issue in comics: I don't believe that minority characters have to be a) written for a fictitious minority audience or that b) minority characters will not appeal long-term to the predominantly white audience. It's a personal belief that I don't even know Iif could justify, but I do feel it (yes, I know, real non-scientific and holistic-thinking of me. But hey, a feeling's a feeling, no?) The statement about second-tier status is a bit more easy to challenge in that Daredevil, for example, was a second-tier character until MacKenzie and Miller got ahold of him back around 1980. There are others. Bunches
It's an odd industry. There's juvenille entertainment and escapism, adult-oriented super-hero and non super-hero titles; first-time published, real graphic novels that mingle with the series reprints. Most importantly to me is the overbearing hand of the fanboy stamped on so much of the releases from the major publishers. There's a true, very profound artform mixed together with disposable tripe occupyiing and competing for the same newsstand rack space. There's a reason why ongoing conversations about the collapse of comics haven't happened as much in europe--people who read the stuff seem to be able to tell the difference immediately. It must be part cultural and part better marketing over the years. The glaring differences in American comics product manifests as only a subtle difference in the mind of most Americans.
You know, it strikes me that I've been waxing philosophic all over the map, so I'll call it a day and apologize for the rambling nature of my writing.
--Dave
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This is from Rik Offenberger, a huge fan of the Archie heroes who now works as an online PR man for Archie:
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MLJ at DC
Posted by: "Rik Offenberger" rik.offenberger@gmail.com rikoffenberger
Date: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:19 am ((PDT))
Michael,
Thanks for the post. I am here only as a fan. DC requested to license the characters from Archie. DC wants to handle their own PR. I would have been more then happy to write a press release, because after all that is my job. I only found out about the announcement hours before everyone else. Every MLJ hero was part of the license except Joe Simon's Fly and Pvt. Strong. The Archie Heroes and the Milestone Heroes will be introduced slowly and expand slowly but will be part of the DCU. There has been a lot of talk at Archie about how to reintroduce the heroes, and while things were under discussion DC made an offer that was acceptable and mutually beneficial.
Rik
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Rik runs THE BEST Archie heroes website on the net here:
http://www.mightycrusaders.net/
I find it curious that Archie hasn't made, afaik, any press release on the deal. Odd.
-Yoc
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misapear:
"although I'm sure you'd agree that the rack after rack of manga appearing at your local bookstore is not the answer ..... (and) ... will not continue to be as faddish as it is now"
I'll only say that manga, for the most part, doesn't interest me. I do have to admit there is one exception, Rurouni Kenshin, which if I ever find all of those books together at a reasonable price, I will buy them (loved the cartoon series). And no fad lasts forever, but obviously manga has found an audience. Judging by how much space they take-up in regular bookstores (usually equal to if not larger than the space allotted to comics and graphic novels/tpb), I'ld say that audience was a fairly large one, too, it's just not the same group of people that read comics. To dismiss manga simply because I don't like it as a whole is narrow-minded.
"As far as your laugh at my prediction of an end to the comics market: I think I stated badly that the profile of the readership will change (just as the profile of music and cinema fans has changed.)"
I meant no disrespect to you, it's just that so many people for so long have declared "THE END OF COMICS" that's it's laughable at this point. This industry needs a major shake-up, and I honestly don't see it coming from any of the current publishers as the industry currently operates (from developement to distribution). Unfortunately, the people in charge of comics as they are now won't think in a different way and so they continue to do business as usual, meaning things won't change from within.
As to "The Phantom Fiasco", I think King Features is taking advantage of the fact that two seperate companies want to create comics based on one character. For the regular comic shop customer, I don't think they'll get overly confused, since most people know what company (or companies, if you're like me) produces the comics they regularly read. The casual comic buyer (the really young ones starting-out or the people that visit shops about once a year) may get a little confused if they read both books and try to figure-out how they fit together. I would imagine though that the logos/titles will different enough that it won't be much of a problem. Remember, too, that "The Ghost Who Walks" is a legacy, with generations of Phantoms, each one a different character than the next. Why not capitalize on that fact by allowing Moonstone to do one version of The Phantom and Dynamite Ent to do another? From King Features stand-point, it's good business since they make money off of two series and not just one. To think that the two titles will be competing with each other for readership is to say that only Spider-Man, Batman and Superman can carry more than one title. I say "let's wait and see about that".
On the "Minority Issue", maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that minority characters are, by default, second-tier characters or that fandom won't embrace them, just that, for the most part, that's how the creators and the companies treat them (remember I pointed-out Icon and Static as exceptions!). Yes, we can both state hundreds (or at least dozens) of examples of how a second, third or fourth-rate character became the next hot thing, most of who have been your typical superhero. I look at characters like The Falcon who has never had his own series (aside from one mini-series) because he's very "street-level" and community-oriented, and that part of his character is always written into nearly every appearance. Not to say that characters like that stink out-loud, but it .... searching for the right phrase, I can only think of .... makes him annoying after a while, just as I would get annoyed with Captain America if all he ever did was cry about how he's a man from a different era and all his friends are old and/or dead. It's like the writers/companies think that simply because a character is a minority that that part of their character needs to be the focus and the "superhero" aspect should take a back-seat.
That's what I see, at least. It's why I won't read a story with Black Lightning or Luke Cage or The Black Crow or American Eagle or a ton of other minority characters because I don't want to be beat over the head with the fact that they are a minority .... I can SEE that when I look at the pictures!
By the way, I'm part American-Indian, and while I would love to read about Native-American superheroes, I haven't seen one that hasn't come across as a sterotype. I mean, I don't go running around with feathers in my head and calling myself some variation of a bird (eagle, crow, hawk, etc), why is it that every comic company that's done a Native-American hero thinks that that's the way to go? Why has every single character of that group of people always had a love of the land? It's insulting! They might as well make them own a casino and get drunk all the time while their at it.
(deep breaths ... calm down .... they'll only comics ....)
"Most importantly to me is the overbearing hand of the fanboy stamped on so much of the releases from the major publishers. "
I totally agree with you here. I believe that part of the problem is, and has been for decades, that "The Vocal Minority" has taken the wheel and driven comics down the wrong road by constantly alienating anyone who wasn't already reading comics. It's kind of fitting to have this conversation on a site devoted to comics that could tell a story in 8-16 pages by creators who, for the most part, treated comics like a job and were paid peanuts, yet the books themselves sold in numbers that are nearly impossible for today's comics to match.
I overheard a conversation at a comic store between the owner and an artist (nobody important except in his own mind). The artist complained that he was only getting paid $200 per page (this was years ago, too, so I'm guessing he was a "bottom of the barrel" artist) and that simply wasn't enough for him to devote himself full-time to comics. I'm sorry, but if I was getting paid anywhere near $4000 to draw a monthly comic, I'ld skip sleeping and eating for that kind of money! I just kept thinking to myself "what other kind of job can you do what you love, set your own hours and make that kind of money?" It's not like drawing what someone tells you to draw is all that hard.
Point is, the creators have put themselves before the comics they create, and the fans whole-heartedly accept it, and worst of all, encourage it.
Oops ... I rambled a little bit there, didn't I?
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As far as DC's use of the MLJ heroes is concerned, I would love to see DC find a writer or two who has a real appreciation for these characters and their rich history and really turned them loose on these characters. In othere words someone like a James Robinson or Geoff Johns. If they do that, they would have another Starman or Justice Society of America like sucess on their hands.
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As far as DC's use of the MLJ heroes is concerned, I would love to see DC find a writer or two who has a real appreciation for these characters and their rich history and really turned them loose on these characters. In othere words someone like a James Robinson or Geoff Johns. If they do that, they would have another Starman or Justice Society of America like sucess on their hands.
That is such a brilliant idea that you just know the powers that be at DC would NEVER think of it.
B.
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Oh good. Finally, the 21st Century will know Thunderbunny.
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Oh good. Finally, the 21st Century will know Thunderbunny.
I would totally be down for Thunderbunny. ;D
B.
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I read Tim Truman's SCOUT series by Eclipse a while back and thought it was a good read.
be read
By the way, I'm part American-Indian, and while I would love to read about Native-American superheroes, I haven't seen one that hasn't come across as a sterotype. I mean, I don't go running around with feathers in my head and calling myself some variation of a bird (eagle, crow, hawk, etc), why is it that every comic company that's done a Native-American hero thinks that that's the way to go? Why has every single character of that group of people always had a love of the land? It's insulting! They might as well make them own a casino and get drunk all the time while their at it.
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Personally, I don't like the idea of the MLC characters interacting with other DC characters.
Then again I still don't think of Captain Marvel (of SHAZAM! infamy) as a DC character. Of course that is my stubbornness about something that DC did decades ago.
I feel that DC has enough old characters and new characters to fill out their universe.
I would be curious to see Archie comics do something with these old heroes.
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I feel exactly the same way about Captain Marvel. Plastic Man too. It's just weird seeing them interact with DC characters.
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Personally, I think it's because they're portrayed as outsiders.
Consider: We don't scratch our heads when Batman teams up with the Flash, even though they technically originated at different companies. The main difference is that DC integrated the National Periodical and All-American characters, and made them equally important (or at least they've tried to, in the case of Wonder Woman). For the other characters purchased over the years, they've simply been shunted off to the side, and only really paraded around when a crossover needs somebody to kill. Or, like Plastic Man, they're used as comedy relief. (Exception: Giffen's Justice League, which was, appropriately, chosen from a list of characters that the editors said they didn't care about.)
And it's sort of sad, because I'd much rather see a legacy Phantom Lady shine (so to speak) in a mainstream book than have Black Canary or Zatanna crammed down my throat every month. She has a far better pedigree than the other two do and has more storytelling potential than both combined. Instead, she gets shunted off with the Freedom Fighters, like the Marvel Family are walled off in "Fawcett City."
That's my big prediction for the Archie characters, by the way: They'll all be government-sponsored heroes on the same team (the Mighty Crusaders, undoubtedly) and exiled to some hellhole called River City, Riverdale's ugly but winking big brother that no real hero ever visits. They'll show up in an occasional crossover, but otherwise vanish inexplicably when the contract runs out.
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That's part of it, certainly... but also, with comics like Plastic Man, the art is much more cartoony and the dialogue matches. It's sort of like putting Mighty Mouse in the Avengers (and I'm sure there's fanfic that does just that, sadly). Yes, they're all superheroes, but that's about the only thing that links them.
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On the other hand, while it's not Mighty Mouse, what about Krypto, Hoppy, or the Zoo Crew? They've all successfully integrated (at times) with mainstream heroes and start out much stranger than Plastic Man, who wasn't ever nearly as annoyingly goofy as DC portrays him.
I mean, I see what you're saying, obviously, and maybe it's just that I'm a little more liberal in my acceptance of genre conventions than you are. But I do think there's a lot of potential in these characters, if DC would just go to the trouble of trying it.
Plastic Man in Morrison's JLA doesn't count, for the goofiness reason mentioned above. A "serious" Plastic Man character could be amazing. Heck, check out his old "Brave & Bold" appearances in the '70s. Great stories, and not what anybody would expect, these days...especially not from Bob Haney.
Oh, as another data point specifically on Plastic Man, it's known that Julie Schwartz only green-lit the creation of Elongated Man because he wasn't made aware of the Quality purchase in time to use the existing character he wanted. Had things been otherwise, Plas would've been the married glory-hog friend of the Flash that we all remember.
It's worth wondering, I think, if your opinion would be any different if Plastic Man had forty years of momentum behind him, rather than just a procession of unfunny humor books. It's OK if it wouldn't, but I'm always interested in seeing where the "pain point" is on changes. Kinda like the "Wonder Dog" story over in Titans. I think it stinks because it's a sloppy throwaway story, but I know most other people are reacting badly because it's somehow damaging a childhood memory.
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It's even simpler than that... You put Woozy Winks next to ANY Justice League character and it looks like they're in Roger Rabbit.
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Ah. OK, I get what you mean. I didn't previously, because I usually...well, I ignore Woozy. Never liked him. Too much of an overt plot device, in most cases. With all due respect to Jack Cole, I wouldn't mind it terribly if Plas woke up one series with a new supporting cast, rather than continually rebooting that same guy.
On the other hand, he wouldn't appear with the Justice League any more than Jimmy Olsen or Etta Candy would, so even that can be dodged.
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Plas and Azreal in the JLA put a stop to my reading them at the time. He ruined the whole series.
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Yeah, Azrael was a stupid idea to begin with, another "slot filler," just because the old JLA had a Hawkman. And he wrote the most annoying Plastic Man I've ever seen (and I've seen some BAD Plastic Man writing).
Of course, I wasn't a fan of his run to begin with, since he was so big on playing with postmodern rules (the good guys always win, for example) as if they were mystical forces, rather than just telling a story. And, of course, trying to LOOK like the old JLA, as if that in itself makes his stuff as "classic" as Gardner Fox's or even Cary Bates's.
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As head of the 'Woozy Winks for President' :D campaign I'd just like to point out that when DC Comics first revieved Plas in his own book in 1966 it was without Woozy and with a brand new surporting cast.
Result:It flooped after just ten issues.
IMO Plas without Woozy is like Abbott without Costello, Laurel without Hardy, Martin without Lewis ( okay scratch the last one !) I think Cole knew what he was doing bringing in Woozy as it did seem to make Plas the straight man of the team.
-Nigel
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Which is fine. I have no problem really with Woozy. It just doesn't fit with the JLA.
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With or without Woozy Plastic Man DOES NOT belong in the JLA. I think of him as a humor feature outside the DCU.
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Thats the whole point of Plas as written and drawn by Jack Cole, somehow he managed to exist on the edge of straight super-heroics and humor, a very hard thing to pull off which IMO hardly anyone has managed to do since the 1940's, maybe the Pasko/Fradon team came closest in the 1970's.
Even some of the later Quality stories published during the 1950's did'nt quite get the mix right following Cole's departure.
-Nigel
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Ah, but the '66 series had...well, other problems. The writing certainly isn't Drake's finest moment, and Gil Kane's art really doesn't fit the character. I'm suggesting that he'd be more successful not as a humor character at all, but as--get this--an actual superhero.
Again, if anybody wants to see a serious Plas, I highly recommend the relevant Haney Brave & Bold issues (#76 and 95, yes I'm spoiling the surprise, plus the later #123 which isn't quite as good, but includes Metamorpho as well). You'll also get some nice Sekowsky, Cardy, and Aparo pencils along the way, so it's not like it's wasted time...
That version of the character might be down on his luck, but I'd shell out a couple of bucks a month to read about him, and think he'd fit in a mainstream team. He's competant and heroic, despite his problems. He's not turning into things to scare people or telling jokes to amuse the five year olds in the audience, but yet he still has a sense of humor.
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On the edge is fine. I like on the edge. Howard the Duck is on the edge. Ambush Bug is on the edge. I love both characters dearly and they are among my favorites. However- they aren't major members of one of the most powerful superhero teams. They show up when some comic relief is needed and then they go back to their own worlds and are forgotten.
This is exactly why everyone hates Marvin, Wendy and that dog.
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I Think that a mid 60's "Dream Team" on Plastic Man would have indeed been Bob Haney who as already noted seemed to have a good handle on the character working with Future Plas artist to be Ramona Fradon.
This team worked well together on a number of Metamorpho issues during this period, another semi-serious character and showed there that they would have had the right 'touch' for Plastic Man.
-Nigel
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I Think that a mid 60's "Dream Team" on Plastic Man would have indeed been Bob Haney who as already noted seemed to have a good handle on the character working with Future Plas artist to be Ramona Fradon.
Gasp! I'm gonna go drool over what might have been and then cry myself to sleep.
And I want to focus a little bit more on Mr. Squid's comment on comic relief. While my tastes may very well differ from most, I don't really mind humor characters mixing with the rank and file. However, if it's going to be permanent, it can't draw attention to itself. There's a difference between having a funny friend and having a friend who flails around telling jokes only he thinks is funny, because he thinks HE is the funny friend.
Ambush Bug is fun because the writer CAN tone things down and still be funny, plus the character can participate in the normal events. Wendy and Marvin were annoying because they were incompetant, and that, by itself, was supposed to be funny. Plastic Man needs to stick to the former side, and has in the past, but they keep writing him as the latter (and then they claim he's more powerful to compensate for being an idiot).
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I enjoyed Blue and Gold in JLA they were fun. Plas was just stupid.
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I'm surprised about the overwhelmingly negative reaction here to the news about DC reviving the Archie superheroes. As boox909 said, "Elsewhere a few people are celebrating this development", and this includes the fans of those characters at mightycrusaders.net. But not here. I can only assume that this is because you guys are fans of golden age comics and not of modern superhero comics.
I consider myself a fan of superhero comics old and new. I've always preferred DC to Marvel, and I've always been intrigued by the Archie superheroes. I've gotten a lot of enjoyment from the MLJ stuff I've downloaded from here. The original Fly and Lancelot Strong stories that Simon and Kirby did in 1959 were favourites of my dad's. The Red Circle version showed promise, and I thought even the Impact run was passable, though aimed at a younger audience, but it could've been better if it was closer to the earlier incarnations.
These characters have lain dormant for far too long, and I'm looking forward to seeing what DC will do with them. If Archie were bringing them back I'd be less enthusiastic. As I said on another site, "There were some perfectly good superheroes created in this line over the decades, and I think the reason they kept failing was that Archie didn't take superheroes seriously. I suspect it was editorial interference that made every good comic deteriorate and ultimately fail. This applies to all the series except the Impact ones, which were apparently free from Archie's influence, and even these went through some unnecessary changes before the end. Let's hope that they live up to their potential this time around."
Why do I say "Archie didn't take superheroes seriously"? Like a lot of other companies in the 40s, MLJ/Archie were quick to phase out their superheroes when the genre's heyday began to fade. Simon and Kirby's 1959 comics showed promise, but much of the stuff that followed in the 60s were pale imitations of the early Avengers with the camp element from the Batman. The Red Circle books began with art by greats like Toth, Morrow, Ditko, Von Eeden, Nino and Buckler (who I think was their artistic director or something). But they swiftly went downhill as they became more and more like what you'd expect from an Archie comic. Their occasional appearances in more recent comics have been squarely aimed at kids. Which is not always a bad thing, but not what I feel these characters deserve.
Oops, I seem to have rambled on. Hope no-one objects to the thread being brought back on topic. ;)
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It's not that I don't like modern comics. I like plenty of modern comics... but I sort of feel like, for the most part, there's not much new ground to cover... and at this point people have been brought back from the dead so often, it's hard to care about whether or not they die.
That's why I love standalone series, such as the DC Elseworlds stuff. Most of Elseworlds was very good specifically because they didn't carry 50+ years of baggage.
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I'm surprised about the overwhelmingly negative reaction here to the news about DC reviving the Archie superheroes. As boox909 said, "Elsewhere a few people are celebrating this development", and this includes the fans of those characters at mightycrusaders.net. But not here. I can only assume that this is because you guys are fans of golden age comics and not of modern superhero comics.
Personally, I'll probably give it a brief chance. However, my concern is DC's track record:
They bought the rights to the Quality characters in 1956. Where are they now? They're nobodies who get reinvented every ten years to no acclaim whatsoever and are as likely to be killed offscreen as put in a cameo to support someone else's story. Or Uncle Sam gets trotted out to show what evil jingoists Americans are. The Blackhawks (who DC did right by for about twenty years, it should be mentioned) are forgotten except for Lady Blackhawk, who wasn't even a Quality creation.
After a few years of licensing them, they bought the Fawcett characters in 1980. Where are they now? Shazam is dead. Billy is the wizard. Mary's a fruitcake without a coherent reason. Freddy is Shazam because they're tired of using the Marvel name. Other characters are revived seemingly at random, but are mostly exiled to "Fawcett City," which I always envision as the old Jewish ghetto in Prague, but with fewer people caring about the inhabitants.
Around 1983, they bought the Charlton properties. Where are they now? Dead, maimed, insane, or non-existant. Except for Judomaster, oddly, who despite being a retcon character, somehow became an important Golden Ager.
In 1991, they licensed the Archie characters, rebooted them completely, and then abandoned any plans of marketing it in hopes that it'd just go away, which it did. That's the saddest, because those books had huge market potential that the new regime just didn't care about.
Wildstorm and Eisner don't count, because they're insulated from the DCU proper by one contrivance or another, and technically managed outside of DC, which brings us to today.
I'd like to be more interested, but really, I've danced this dance before. They'll be exiled to their own city, or put into titles that don't quite integrate with the rest. Some might be killed so we can pretend that Superboy-Prime is a scary villain, rather than merely irritating. DC will claim that the sales numbers don't support continuing it, and the fans will feel they've wasted two or three years.
I want them to prove me very wrong, honestly, and hit this one out of the park. However, they've already failed the first (important, but not critical) test in my eyes, because they're treating the characters as new, rather than historical and important. While you might be right that Archie wouldn't have treated them better, I'm concerned that they'll be treated as tiny fish in an enormous pond. Static gets Titans membership while the Shield joins the other "unknowns" as the Mighty Crusaders, which never gets invited to the summer crossovers, which doesn't seem very egalitarian.
That's how I (I think it was mostly my fault) pushed this off-topic, I think, looking at the situation by analogy. And because DC has failed so miserably at integration in the past, that sort of encouraged a lot of people to vent their bile...
On the other hand, I actually AM much more of a fan of older comics than new. The form is more experimental, the stories and art are more workmanlike, and there's less of a defensive attitude to the whole thing. Add in the faster pace and some really wild concepts, and I'd kind of rather spend money keeping this site open (and buying DVDs and hard drives to store downloads) than keeping DC in business.
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FlyingSquid: I could never get into most Elseworlds I've read. To me continuity (or "baggage" if you like) is a major attraction of the big companies.
jcolag: I've seen the argument that DC has neglected its imported characters before, but I'm not totally convinced, even with a list of examples like yours. You could make such claims about any group of characters if you dwell on their low points. For example, the original JLA: they killed Superman and the Flash, broke Batman's back and replaced him, turned GL into a mad killer, Martian Manhunter was neglected for many years etc. And that's looking at DC's most successful characters. It seems to me that many people at DC have tried to make successes out of the imported characters, and some have worked better than others.
You mentioned Captain Marvel. They tried a Fawcett-like series in the 70s, it didn't last long. The Power of Shazam was a good compromise between the best features of the old school version and a modernisation, and it did quite well for a number of years but eventually failed. They've tried to handle him seriously in the JLA, but he never really seems to fit. It's difficult to know what to do with some characters. Look at Hawkman, Aquaman, Supergirl, the Atom etc.
As for the status quo: I don't follow all the series, but it does sound like they're getting a rough deal at the moment. Still it could be worse - you could be a New Gods fan. But things are in such a volatile state right now, who knows what the status quo will be in a year's time? I suspect that a lot of old characters will be either revamped or returned to previous states. You say that "they're treating the characters as new, rather than historical and important". I hadn't heard this. Maybe they'll just be new to the characters they meet, or to the new earth or something? Whatever, what matters is that they're given the respect they deserve. Which remains to be seen. I believe they'll only be appearing in the Brave and the Bold, at least at first. I imagine they'll be presented as the heroes of another earth, but I'm just guessing.
Oh, and I wasn't criticising anyone for going off-topic - we've all done it. I've just seen so many posts end with an apology for going off-topic, I thought it would be funny to apologise for doing the opposite. ;D
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Gotta say there's been some excellent posts in this thread.
I discovered the Mighty Crusaders only slightly after Batman and Spiderman in the late 70s. So I've got a very big soft spot for the MLJ gang and will patently wait to read these. My own feelings are 'read B&B and hope for the best.' Don't expect much and fingers crossed it isn't a sad joke. There's a lot of potential with the characters but as JC said - small fish in a huge pond.
-Yoc
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My own feelings are 'read B&B and hope for the best.' Don't expect much and fingers crossed it isn't a sad joke.
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My feelings exactly.
I don't know if the following pic (found at mightycrusaders.net) is related to the upcoming appearances or not, but if so, it doesn't look like a "sad joke" - in fact, it looks pretty good to me.
(http://mightycrusaders.net/images/index.1.jpg)
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Just to clarify my comments...hopefully, I can keep THIS message short, but really, what are the odds, right?
jcolag: I've seen the argument that DC has neglected its imported characters before, but I'm not totally convinced, even with a list of examples like yours. You could make such claims about any group of characters if you dwell on their low points. For example, the original JLA: they killed Superman and the Flash, broke Batman's back and replaced him, turned GL into a mad killer, Martian Manhunter was neglected for many years etc. And that's looking at DC's most successful characters. It seems to me that many people at DC have tried to make successes out of the imported characters, and some have worked better than others.
I have mixed feelings on this, because I see the "native" DCers as single instances. Superman and Batman were "events" that nobody ever believed would be permanent except some real-world journalists. Green Lantern...well, it wasn't a bad idea (and if you read the story carefully, he only killed twice, at the very end), but the post-change execution was miserable. Flash? Eh. Nobody was reading the book at the time. It's kinda like griping about Supergirl. People like the idea more than the book.
I exclude the Martian because there are only two groups of people who consider him a major player: There's the group who, like myself, started reading in the '70s, when he was a rare guest star in huge stories, and he was interesting for the novelty. The other group started reading in the '90s when the "heart and soul of the League" line became DC's mantra. But he was NEVER an important character, even in his own strip.
That's actually my point. As DC acquires all these characters, Green Arrow gets yet another book. Black Canary becomes everybody's go-to sidekick. The Martian Manhunter is woven into everybody's origin story. Wonder Woman is promoted as an equal to Superman and Batman (no matter her sales figures). There are a couple of other examples, but the consistent story is that the "natives" get the marketing while the "immigrants" are tossed in a closet, somewhere.
It's actually not the deaths and mayhem that bother me, it's the dismissal of the characters in favor of supposed "icons" that aren't as interesting. There's never a Spy Smasher series when they could have another six issues about Deadshot whining about his family life. Black Canary chairs the Justice League and Zatanna (the most boring character ever) is getting a new series while the latest Phantom Lady--who has been published at least once a decade since her creation, by various companies, proving her popularity--is a bit player in a Freedom Fighters mini-series that is never advertised.
It's also not a matter of being "true" to some original form. Len Wein's Blue Beetle (the '80s series published contemporary with his Justice League appearances) was very good, and possibly better for the period than Steve Ditko's, for example. I'm not against modernization, by any means, because that kills the industry (and the Shazam series shows that). I'm against ignoring the past to "create the character from scratch." I mean, why isn't there a Marvel Family member founding the JSA? The Marvels work well in that era, so play it up! The current Billy and Freddie are in the line of succession, and that doesn't take anything away from them, but rather would show that DC is allowing the imports to be "foundational" rather than afterthoughts. Blue Beetle and Captain Marvel made it to the Justice League (successfully, I felt, though you seem to disagree on the latter), it's true, but only because they were on the list given to Keith Giffen of characters they didn't care about! Like Phantom Lady, there's been a Blue Beetle series at least once per decade, and DC assumed he was worthless out of the gate.
You say that "they're treating the characters as new, rather than historical and important". I hadn't heard this. Maybe they'll just be new to the characters they meet, or to the new earth or something?
Stracynski's words were to the effect of the Shield will appear as if he were being created today, and they won't be using the Hangman's third cousin or anything. To me, that says that Joe Higgins lost his father twenty years ago (in Grenada, I hope, because that'd be funny) and is just discovering the formula today. (They've also stated that both the Archie and Milestone characters will all be on the current DC Earth.)
Let me repeat that I don't consider this a distinctly bad thing. It CAN pan out well, as the Blue Beetle examples show. But seriously, if you're going to license the first-ever patriotic-themed hero, why wouldn't you flaunt that by setting him in 1940 and making him the childhood idol of every square-chinned defender of justice this country has ever produced? DC has never had a figure that could compete with Captain America, and this would be a great opportunity for them, but it doesn't look like they've noticed.
And again, because it seems like I'm down on the whole thing: If they can prove me wrong, here, and make them work, I'll be very happy and might start risking some of their other titles.
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FlyingSquid: I could never get into most Elseworlds I've read. To me continuity (or "baggage" if you like) is a major attraction of the big companies.
There's continuity and then there's just plain old baggage. And the baggage is why there are constant retcons and re-launches. I mean just recently they completely rebooted Spider-Man, wiping out years of continuity, and very likely, they will at some point bring all of that continuity back in by doing something majorly convoluted only to lose it yet again in some other convoluted way.
It's very hard to have a character have monthly (or even weekly) adventures for 30, 40, 50, 60 years AND keep it fresh. Thats why, as I said, I like Elseworlds. It's a fresh new take on characters that are, at least to me, explored fully in their own universe. We know everything about their powers, their interests, their likes and dislikes, every member of their family, their ancestry, what they'll be doing in the future, etc.
What more is there to say about Superman or Batman in the regular world? After all of these decades, even for comic books, it's bizarre that characters like the Joker or Brainiac continue to come back time and again to taunt the same heroes and all because they have a 'we won't kill you' code, and even if they DO kill them, it turns out to be a robot or a clone or a dream. It just gets harder and harder for me to suspend my disbelief.
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What more is there to say about Superman or Batman in the regular world?
I see this as a lack of imagination on the part of the writers, rather than an inherent problem in the concept. After all, people live longer than seventy years without getting bored out of their minds, so why can't fictional characters.
The real problem I see is that, for many years, the writers WANT to merely bring something new to the table, whether it's a new villain, a new color of kryptonite, a new member of the supporting cast, or whatnot. So "what haven't we seen before" really means that there's no novel piece of flotsam to cram into the title that will let us return to the status quo...which is obviously defeatist from the start.
However, there's PLENTY of space to question the mission, get out of a rut, revisit some old plot with new experience (actual continuity), and so forth. It's a shame writers can never manage to do this for more than a couple of months at a time, and a bigger shame that the next writer invariably ignores or reverts this. In fact, Spider-Man is a perfect example. He grew up. He got a new job. He got married. His entire life changed, slowly, over the course of many years. So they ditched it.
Siegel and Shuster understood this, actually. They wanted to let Superman evolve over time, back in 1940, but the editors were uncomfortable publishing a character in transition and so deep-sixed the "K-Metal" story. While nobody could say for sure, if that story was printed and successful, I don't think people would see Superman (or any character) as stagnant, because the writing wouldn't be stagnant.
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Excellent points all. I think that the only way to fix it, however, is to do true reboots because all of the retconning and absurdity because of the retconning and the re-retconning of some of the absurdity leading to even more retconning is a big part of the problem.
I think it would be very interesting if Marvel and DC has a big writer shake-up and brought in a huge amount of new talent. Marvel started to do that by bringing in J. Michael Straczynski and Kevin Smith, but then they screwed it up by making all sorts of from-the-top editorial changes. I would love to see someone like Charlie Kaufman allowed to work on a mainstream comic title without editorial interference.
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I feel that it's a mistake to blame "editorial interference" for all the flaws in comics. Most of the current writers (with some notable exceptions) are prima donnas with no understanding of story structure or a long-range plan for the characters beyond some specific set piece--I'm reminded by a Grant Morrison quote that he "always wanted to shave the Shaggy Man," so he built a story around it. The editors should be supplying that vision so the writers don't run amok like that. That's not to say they should plot the stories, but they should make sure that every writer keeps his characters and titles "on message," whatever that message happens to be.
I really do think that, as long as the editor requires answers to key questions (like, "how will this affect the book's dynamic" and "how will this affect the universe at learge") before green-lighting a story, all the problems of continuity, crossover organization, and boring non-events will iron themselves out.
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Oh, definitely it is not only the fault of the editors, but some majorly stupid continuity stuff is a result of them, like the recent "Peter Parker and Mary Jane never married" ridiculousness. JMS himself said it was a decision from on high.
But you are also right in that there are a lot of writers in the comics industry today whose egoes are much bigger than their talent. I think the perfect example of this is Frank Miller whose writing has gotten worse the more famous he's become.
Batman: Holy Terror sounds like a joke.