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DC Acquires Archie Heroes!

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topic icon Author Topic: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!  (Read 19322 times)

rez

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2008, 06:20:59 AM »

I read Tim Truman's SCOUT series by Eclipse a while back and thought it was a good read.

be read




By the way, I'm part American-Indian, and while I would love to read about Native-American superheroes, I haven't seen one that hasn't come across as a sterotype.  I mean, I don't go running around with feathers in my head and calling myself some variation of a bird (eagle, crow, hawk, etc), why is it that every comic company that's done a Native-American hero thinks that that's the way to go?  Why has every single character of that group of people always had a love of the land?  It's insulting!  They might as well make them own a casino and get drunk all the time while their at it.


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The Wolf

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2008, 07:39:26 AM »

Personally, I don't like the idea of the MLC characters interacting with other DC characters.
Then again I still don't think of Captain Marvel (of SHAZAM! infamy) as a DC character. Of course that is my stubbornness about something that DC did decades ago.
I feel that DC has enough old characters and new characters to fill out their universe.
I would be curious to see Archie comics do something with these old heroes.
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FlyingSquid

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2008, 04:09:58 PM »

I feel exactly the same way about Captain Marvel. Plastic Man too. It's just weird seeing them interact with DC characters.
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John C

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2008, 04:32:50 PM »

Personally, I think it's because they're portrayed as outsiders.

Consider:  We don't scratch our heads when Batman teams up with the Flash, even though they technically originated at different companies.  The main difference is that DC integrated the National Periodical and All-American characters, and made them equally important (or at least they've tried to, in the case of Wonder Woman).  For the other characters purchased over the years, they've simply been shunted off to the side, and only really paraded around when a crossover needs somebody to kill.  Or, like Plastic Man, they're used as comedy relief.  (Exception:  Giffen's Justice League, which was, appropriately, chosen from a list of characters that the editors said they didn't care about.)

And it's sort of sad, because I'd much rather see a legacy Phantom Lady shine (so to speak) in a mainstream book than have Black Canary or Zatanna crammed down my throat every month.  She has a far better pedigree than the other two do and has more storytelling potential than both combined.  Instead, she gets shunted off with the Freedom Fighters, like the Marvel Family are walled off in "Fawcett City."

That's my big prediction for the Archie characters, by the way:  They'll all be government-sponsored heroes on the same team (the Mighty Crusaders, undoubtedly) and exiled to some hellhole called River City, Riverdale's ugly but winking big brother that no real hero ever visits.  They'll show up in an occasional crossover, but otherwise vanish inexplicably when the contract runs out.
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FlyingSquid

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2008, 04:36:49 PM »

That's part of it, certainly... but also, with comics like Plastic Man, the art is much more cartoony and the dialogue matches. It's sort of like putting Mighty Mouse in the Avengers (and I'm sure there's fanfic that does just that, sadly). Yes, they're all superheroes, but that's about the only thing that links them.
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John C

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2008, 05:09:08 PM »

On the other hand, while it's not Mighty Mouse, what about Krypto, Hoppy, or the Zoo Crew?  They've all successfully integrated (at times) with mainstream heroes and start out much stranger than Plastic Man, who wasn't ever nearly as annoyingly goofy as DC portrays him.

I mean, I see what you're saying, obviously, and maybe it's just that I'm a little more liberal in my acceptance of genre conventions than you are.  But I do think there's a lot of potential in these characters, if DC would just go to the trouble of trying it.

Plastic Man in Morrison's JLA doesn't count, for the goofiness reason mentioned above.  A "serious" Plastic Man character could be amazing.  Heck, check out his old "Brave & Bold" appearances in the '70s.  Great stories, and not what anybody would expect, these days...especially not from Bob Haney.

Oh, as another data point specifically on Plastic Man, it's known that Julie Schwartz only green-lit the creation of Elongated Man because he wasn't made aware of the Quality purchase in time to use the existing character he wanted.  Had things been otherwise, Plas would've been the married glory-hog friend of the Flash that we all remember.

It's worth wondering, I think, if your opinion would be any different if Plastic Man had forty years of momentum behind him, rather than just a procession of unfunny humor books.  It's OK if it wouldn't, but I'm always interested in seeing where the "pain point" is on changes.  Kinda like the "Wonder Dog" story over in Titans.  I think it stinks because it's a sloppy throwaway story, but I know most other people are reacting badly because it's somehow damaging a childhood memory.
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FlyingSquid

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2008, 05:15:48 PM »

It's even simpler than that... You put Woozy Winks next to ANY Justice League character and it looks like they're in Roger Rabbit.
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John C

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2008, 06:49:25 PM »

Ah.  OK, I get what you mean.  I didn't previously, because I usually...well, I ignore Woozy.  Never liked him.  Too much of an overt plot device, in most cases.  With all due respect to Jack Cole, I wouldn't mind it terribly if Plas woke up one series with a new supporting cast, rather than continually rebooting that same guy.

On the other hand, he wouldn't appear with the Justice League any more than Jimmy Olsen or Etta Candy would, so even that can be dodged.
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narfstar

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2008, 09:28:48 PM »

Plas and Azreal in the JLA put a stop to my reading them at the time.  He ruined the whole series.
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John C

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2008, 12:09:51 PM »

Yeah, Azrael was a stupid idea to begin with, another "slot filler," just because the old JLA had a Hawkman.  And he wrote the most annoying Plastic Man I've ever seen (and I've seen some BAD Plastic Man writing).

Of course, I wasn't a fan of his run to begin with, since he was so big on playing with postmodern rules (the good guys always win, for example) as if they were mystical forces, rather than just telling a story.  And, of course, trying to LOOK like the old JLA, as if that in itself makes his stuff as "classic" as Gardner Fox's or even Cary Bates's.
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phabox

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2008, 12:23:56 PM »

As head of the 'Woozy Winks for President'  :D campaign I'd just like to point out that when DC Comics first revieved Plas in his own book in 1966 it was without Woozy and with a brand new surporting cast.

Result:It flooped after just ten issues.

IMO Plas without Woozy is like Abbott without Costello, Laurel without Hardy, Martin without Lewis ( okay scratch the last one !) I think Cole knew what he was doing bringing in Woozy as it did seem to make Plas the straight man of the team.

-Nigel
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FlyingSquid

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2008, 02:03:59 PM »

Which is fine. I have no problem really with Woozy. It just doesn't fit with the JLA.
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narfstar

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2008, 02:44:24 PM »

With or without Woozy Plastic Man DOES NOT belong in the JLA.  I think of him as a humor feature outside the DCU.
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phabox

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2008, 03:37:28 PM »

Thats the whole point of Plas as written and drawn by Jack Cole, somehow he managed to exist on the edge of straight super-heroics and humor, a very hard thing to pull off which IMO hardly anyone has managed to do since the 1940's, maybe the Pasko/Fradon team came closest in the 1970's.

Even some of the later Quality stories published during the 1950's did'nt quite get the mix right following Cole's departure.

-Nigel
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John C

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2008, 03:41:20 PM »

Ah, but the '66 series had...well, other problems.  The writing certainly isn't Drake's finest moment, and Gil Kane's art really doesn't fit the character.  I'm suggesting that he'd be more successful not as a humor character at all, but as--get this--an actual superhero.

Again, if anybody wants to see a serious Plas, I highly recommend the relevant Haney Brave & Bold issues (#76 and 95, yes I'm spoiling the surprise, plus the later #123 which isn't quite as good, but includes Metamorpho as well).  You'll also get some nice Sekowsky, Cardy, and Aparo pencils along the way, so it's not like it's wasted time...

That version of the character might be down on his luck, but I'd shell out a couple of bucks a month to read about him, and think he'd fit in a mainstream team.  He's competant and heroic, despite his problems.  He's not turning into things to scare people or telling jokes to amuse the five year olds in the audience, but yet he still has a sense of humor.
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FlyingSquid

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2008, 03:59:44 PM »

On the edge is fine. I like on the edge. Howard the Duck is on the edge. Ambush Bug is on the edge. I love both characters dearly and they are among my favorites. However- they aren't major members of one of the most powerful superhero teams. They show up when some comic relief is needed and then they go back to their own worlds and are forgotten.

This is exactly why everyone hates Marvin, Wendy and that dog.
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phabox

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2008, 04:17:44 PM »

I Think that a mid 60's "Dream Team" on Plastic Man would have indeed been Bob Haney who as already noted seemed to have a good handle on the character working with Future Plas artist to be Ramona Fradon.

This team worked well together on a number of Metamorpho issues during this period, another semi-serious character and showed there that they would have had the right 'touch' for Plastic Man.

-Nigel
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John C

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2008, 05:08:42 PM »


I Think that a mid 60's "Dream Team" on Plastic Man would have indeed been Bob Haney who as already noted seemed to have a good handle on the character working with Future Plas artist to be Ramona Fradon.


Gasp!  I'm gonna go drool over what might have been and then cry myself to sleep.

And I want to focus a little bit more on Mr. Squid's comment on comic relief.  While my tastes may very well differ from most, I don't really mind humor characters mixing with the rank and file.  However, if it's going to be permanent, it can't draw attention to itself.  There's a difference between having a funny friend and having a friend who flails around telling jokes only he thinks is funny, because he thinks HE is the funny friend.

Ambush Bug is fun because the writer CAN tone things down and still be funny, plus the character can participate in the normal events.  Wendy and Marvin were annoying because they were incompetant, and that, by itself, was supposed to be funny.  Plastic Man needs to stick to the former side, and has in the past, but they keep writing him as the latter (and then they claim he's more powerful to compensate for being an idiot).
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narfstar

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2008, 08:03:26 PM »

I enjoyed Blue and Gold in JLA they were fun.  Plas was just stupid.
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loopyjoe

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2008, 08:57:40 PM »

I'm surprised about the overwhelmingly negative reaction here to the news about DC reviving the Archie superheroes. As boox909 said, "Elsewhere a few people are celebrating this development", and this includes the fans of those characters at mightycrusaders.net. But not here. I can only assume that this is because you guys are fans of golden age comics and not of modern superhero comics.

I consider myself a fan of superhero comics old and new. I've always preferred DC to Marvel, and I've always been intrigued by the Archie superheroes. I've gotten a lot of enjoyment from the MLJ stuff I've downloaded from here. The original Fly and Lancelot Strong stories that Simon and Kirby did in 1959 were favourites of my dad's. The Red Circle version showed promise, and I thought even the Impact run was passable, though aimed at a younger audience, but it could've been better if it was closer to the earlier incarnations.

These characters have lain dormant for far too long, and I'm looking forward to seeing what DC will do with them. If Archie were bringing them back I'd be less enthusiastic. As I said on another site, "There were some perfectly good superheroes created in this line over the decades, and I think the reason they kept failing was that Archie didn't take superheroes seriously. I suspect it was editorial interference that made every good comic deteriorate and ultimately fail. This applies to all the series except the Impact ones, which were apparently free from Archie's influence, and even these went through some unnecessary changes before the end. Let's hope that they live up to their potential this time around."

Why do I say "Archie didn't take superheroes seriously"? Like a lot of other companies in the 40s, MLJ/Archie were quick to phase out their superheroes when the genre's heyday began to fade. Simon and Kirby's 1959 comics showed promise, but much of the stuff that followed in the 60s were pale imitations of the early Avengers with the camp element from the Batman. The Red Circle books began with art by greats like Toth, Morrow, Ditko, Von Eeden, Nino and Buckler (who I think was their artistic director or something). But they swiftly went downhill as they became more and more like what you'd expect from an Archie comic. Their occasional appearances in more recent comics have been squarely aimed at kids. Which is not always a bad thing, but not what I feel these characters deserve.

Oops, I seem to have rambled on. Hope no-one objects to the thread being brought back on topic.  ;)
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FlyingSquid

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2008, 09:01:58 PM »

It's not that I don't like modern comics. I like plenty of modern comics... but I sort of feel like, for the most part, there's not much new ground to cover... and at this point people have been brought back from the dead so often, it's hard to care about whether or not they die.

That's why I love standalone series, such as the DC Elseworlds stuff. Most of Elseworlds was very good specifically because they didn't carry 50+ years of baggage.
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John C

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2008, 09:37:58 PM »


I'm surprised about the overwhelmingly negative reaction here to the news about DC reviving the Archie superheroes. As boox909 said, "Elsewhere a few people are celebrating this development", and this includes the fans of those characters at mightycrusaders.net. But not here. I can only assume that this is because you guys are fans of golden age comics and not of modern superhero comics.


Personally, I'll probably give it a brief chance.  However, my concern is DC's track record:

They bought the rights to the Quality characters in 1956.  Where are they now?  They're nobodies who get reinvented every ten years to no acclaim whatsoever and are as likely to be killed offscreen as put in a cameo to support someone else's story.  Or Uncle Sam gets trotted out to show what evil jingoists Americans are.  The Blackhawks (who DC did right by for about twenty years, it should be mentioned) are forgotten except for Lady Blackhawk, who wasn't even a Quality creation.

After a few years of licensing them, they bought the Fawcett characters in 1980.  Where are they now?  Shazam is dead.  Billy is the wizard.  Mary's a fruitcake without a coherent reason.  Freddy is Shazam because they're tired of using the Marvel name.  Other characters are revived seemingly at random, but are mostly exiled to "Fawcett City," which I always envision as the old Jewish ghetto in Prague, but with fewer people caring about the inhabitants.

Around 1983, they bought the Charlton properties.  Where are they now?  Dead, maimed, insane, or non-existant.  Except for Judomaster, oddly, who despite being a retcon character, somehow became an important Golden Ager.

In 1991, they licensed the Archie characters, rebooted them completely, and then abandoned any plans of marketing it in hopes that it'd just go away, which it did.  That's the saddest, because those books had huge market potential that the new regime just didn't care about.

Wildstorm and Eisner don't count, because they're insulated from the DCU proper by one contrivance or another, and technically managed outside of DC, which brings us to today.

I'd like to be more interested, but really, I've danced this dance before.  They'll be exiled to their own city, or put into titles that don't quite integrate with the rest.  Some might be killed so we can pretend that Superboy-Prime is a scary villain, rather than merely irritating.  DC will claim that the sales numbers don't support continuing it, and the fans will feel they've wasted two or three years.

I want them to prove me very wrong, honestly, and hit this one out of the park.  However, they've already failed the first (important, but not critical) test in my eyes, because they're treating the characters as new, rather than historical and important.  While you might be right that Archie wouldn't have treated them better, I'm concerned that they'll be treated as tiny fish in an enormous pond.  Static gets Titans membership while the Shield joins the other "unknowns" as the Mighty Crusaders, which never gets invited to the summer crossovers, which doesn't seem very egalitarian.

That's how I (I think it was mostly my fault) pushed this off-topic, I think, looking at the situation by analogy.  And because DC has failed so miserably at integration in the past, that sort of encouraged a lot of people to vent their bile...

On the other hand, I actually AM much more of a fan of older comics than new.  The form is more experimental, the stories and art are more workmanlike, and there's less of a defensive attitude to the whole thing.  Add in the faster pace and some really wild concepts, and I'd kind of rather spend money keeping this site open (and buying DVDs and hard drives to store downloads) than keeping DC in business.
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loopyjoe

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2008, 01:17:08 AM »

FlyingSquid: I could never get into most Elseworlds I've read. To me continuity (or "baggage" if you like) is a major attraction of the big companies.

jcolag: I've seen the argument that DC has neglected its imported characters before, but I'm not totally convinced, even with a list of examples like yours. You could make such claims about any group of characters if you dwell on their low points. For example, the original JLA: they killed Superman and the Flash, broke Batman's back and replaced him, turned GL into a mad killer, Martian Manhunter was neglected for many years etc. And that's looking at DC's most successful characters. It seems to me that many people at DC have tried to make successes out of the imported characters, and some have worked better than others.

You mentioned Captain Marvel. They tried a Fawcett-like series in the 70s, it didn't last long. The Power of Shazam was a good compromise between the best features of the old school version and a modernisation, and it did quite well for a number of years but eventually failed. They've tried to handle him seriously in the JLA, but he never really seems to fit. It's difficult to know what to do with some characters. Look at Hawkman, Aquaman, Supergirl, the Atom etc.

As for the status quo: I don't follow all the series, but it does sound like they're getting a rough deal at the moment. Still it could be worse - you could be a New Gods fan. But things are in such a volatile state right now, who knows what the status quo will be in a year's time? I suspect that a lot of old characters will be either revamped or returned to previous states. You say that "they're treating the characters as new, rather than historical and important". I hadn't heard this. Maybe they'll just be new to the characters they meet, or to the new earth or something? Whatever, what matters is that they're given the respect they deserve. Which remains to be seen. I believe they'll only be appearing in the Brave and the Bold, at least at first. I imagine they'll be presented as the heroes of another earth, but I'm just guessing.

Oh, and I wasn't criticising anyone for going off-topic - we've all done it. I've just seen so many posts end with an apology for going off-topic, I thought it would be funny to apologise for doing the opposite.  ;D
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Yoc

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2008, 04:17:24 AM »

Gotta say there's been some excellent posts in this thread.

I discovered the Mighty Crusaders only slightly after Batman and Spiderman in the late 70s.  So I've got a very big soft spot for the MLJ gang and will patently wait to read these.  My own feelings are 'read B&B and hope for the best.'  Don't expect much and fingers crossed it isn't a sad joke.  There's a lot of potential with the characters but as JC said - small fish in a huge pond.

-Yoc
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loopyjoe

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Re: DC Acquires Archie Heroes!
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2008, 08:13:31 AM »


...
My own feelings are 'read B&B and hope for the best.'  Don't expect much and fingers crossed it isn't a sad joke.
...


My feelings exactly.

I don't know if the following pic (found at mightycrusaders.net) is related to the upcoming appearances or not, but if so, it doesn't look like a "sad joke" - in fact, it looks pretty good to me.

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