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All And Everything => General Discussion => Topic started by: OtherEric on December 03, 2008, 07:31:04 PM

Title: Scans on eBay
Post by: OtherEric on December 03, 2008, 07:31:04 PM: I just saw that somebody is selling a nearly complete run of Animal on CD on eBay. This is hardly the first time somebody has done this, but it is the first one I've seen that's primarily my scans. Not sure how to feel about this; other than pitying the buyers for not figuring out they're available for free. We could probably get the guy in trouble because he's also selling non-PD collections; but I'm not sure I want to try. Very mixed feelings about this one. (I also wonder why he didn't wait until we were done; it's not like we've been quiet about the rest of the books being on the way.)
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JonTheScanner on December 03, 2008, 07:51:33 PM: The thing to do is to post #2 (or something) with an error. Wait til he updates and then post the correct one. ;D
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Zog on December 04, 2008, 01:35:49 AM: It's one of the main reasons we started this place, to provide an outlet for scans those "people" try to sell.
They drive me up the wall.
Taking something they get for nothing and try to make money out of it, leeches in every sense of the word.
>:(
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: rez on December 04, 2008, 03:56:15 AM: well dang, that's worth an applaud.

Quote from: Zog on December 04, 2008, 01:35:49 AM

It's one of the main reasons we started this place, to provide an outlet for scans those "people" try to sell.
They drive me up the wall.
Taking something they get for nothing and try to make money out of it, leeches in every sense of the word.
>:(
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 04, 2008, 10:44:28 AM: eBay has a strict policy against stealing in any sense of the word. For example, if you were to sell Spawn # 1 and you took your own picture of the book, eBay will remove any listing where someone else has taken your picture to sell the same exact item and remove it from their listings if you let them know what's happened. Unfortunately, I speak from experience on this one as I've had people take my photos (usually for variations of a particular item) to sell their stuff ... not that it's ruined my day or anything, but I hate the idea of someone passing-off my "work" as their own without at least asking me first.

I would suggest, if you want this guy to stop selling your scans, contacting him first and asking that he stop or, maybe, coughing-up some money as compensation for passing-off your work as his own. If that doesn't work, contact eBay (if memory serves correctly there should be a "report this item" link somewhere on the listing) and tell them what's going-on. I can't imagine that they wouldn't investigate the matter.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: OtherEric on December 04, 2008, 10:52:54 AM: Well, I most emphatically _don't_ mind people using my scans in general; since it's not my work. It's Public Domain, all I did was scan it. What bugs me is people trying to sell the files I'm giving away for free, unchanged. (And thanks to the people who give us a place to give it away; Yay!) Like I said, my feelings are mixed; other than pity for the buyers.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 04, 2008, 11:42:15 AM: Quote
What bugs me is people trying to sell the files I'm giving away for free, unchanged.

Speaking as someone who only has a dial-up connection (my money is better spent on my children than a faster connection that costs more than 4x times what I'm paying now for internet access), having the option to buy some of the books on cd or dvd is tempting, since I always have trouble with the larger files. I always seem to lose my connection on anything above 50 MB, and after waiting two or three hours, that gets to be frustrating.

There are three reasons I haven't purchased any of the cds I see on eBay that I would want to get. First is a question of the quality of the scans and completeness of the books. From what I've seen, the sellers on eBay are simply taking what's here and making a buck with little to no changes. If that's the case, "why pay for what you can get for free?" definitely runs through my head. Again, we go back to the problem I have with larger files. I've pretty much written-off trying to download anything that's 50-60 MB or more, which means I'm missing-out on books I really want to read. My options? Buy a disc off of eBay, patiently wait for it to appear on a blog somewhere or wait to get lucky and buy the books myself off eBay at a decent price (with the rarity of some of these books, this last option isn't likely to happen any time soon).

The second reason I haven't purchased a cd/dvd off of eBay is, basically, I'm a cheap S.O.B. that refuses to pay more than what I think something is worth. Again, it's pretty obvious that these people are taking files from here and making some money from other people's hard work (I know it's not heavy lifting, but scanning & editting is a time-consuming effort). What dollar value do I put on that cd/dvd? About half what they do.

The third reason? Maybe all you did was scan it, but it still took your effort for the book to appear online. For anyone else to come along and basically claim that work as their own, without so much as even asking you if you mind, is just plain wrong, no matter how you slice it. I simply won't support people like that by buying their product.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: OtherEric on December 04, 2008, 02:10:24 PM: Well said, bchat. I'm more offended by those people taking other people's scans than my own, if that makes sense. (Perhaps I value my own scans less because I _don't_ need them; I've got the originals.) I think part of what amuses me is the clown didn't wait for the whole run of Animal; he jumped once he saw the issue 1 hit. Even though it was clear to forum readers that the whole run would be showing up soon after the #1.

I think there's also an element of laughing so I don't cry; this could bug me a lot if I let it. But now that I've vented a bit, I'm fine with it (for relative values of fine.) I still don't like the idea, but it doesn't bother me enough to do anything about it. With the economy like it is I can't begrudge anybody the income, and I'm very conscious that my scans are just as PD as the original books. So I can't stop him from selling my scans and I'm not going to mess with them selling other people's non-PD scans since they're not mine to worry about.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: phabox on December 04, 2008, 02:19:19 PM: Some good points raised here, some i've had to deal with myself with regard to a certain UK Project that i've been involved with the past couple of years.

The bottom line is we are NEVER going to stop these pirates ripping off 'our' scans, especialy if the material is PD which should of course be the case of all the stuff here.

But then we can't really even call them 'our' scans because none of us own the rights to the material but we DO spend a LOT of cash buying these books only to devalue them by putting them on our scanners.

Then there's the REAL hero scanners we have here who spend hours and hours doing restoration and upgrading work on their stuff which I personally am to dumb and lazy to do with my own scans.

So although I know selling scans is not a popular idea with many here there certainly seems to be a market for them so why does'nt this site beat the pirates to it by selling their own discs mega-cheap plus costs and UNDERCUT these parasites ?

To offset claims of 'cashing in' all profits could be turned over to a charity, I believe that there is already one set up to help comic book creators in their twilight years and IMO this would be an ideal cause to surport.

-Nigel
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: OtherEric on December 04, 2008, 03:11:55 PM: A very nice idea, but one I'm hesitant to say we should actually do for various reasons. I do think it's a good enough idea that I hope somebody can poke holes in my objections; it seem fitting that we can raise money for creators using the books that are PD. (Is the charity ACTOR or something else now? I know they changed the name, I can't remember if that was the original or what they changed it to.)

One, while we strive very hard to stay 100% PD we've proven ourselves wrong on occasion; while they can nail us even if we don't make money off it it becomes even easier once we do. Also, Trademark becomes much more of an issue if we start actually trading in goods.
Two, a lot of us are resistant to the idea of selling our scans, even if we don't mind giving them away.
Three, the quality of our scans varies wildly and at least speaking for myself I don't want to sell a product of highly variable quality.
Four, in some cases we still don't know where our scans come from, or they're from people who don't actually post here. Even if we can, I wouldn't want to try and sell somebody's scans without clear permission.
Five, we would need somebody to do the actual work of organizing, sorting, burning, selling, shipping, advertising, etc...
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 04, 2008, 07:57:09 PM: Quote
Is the charity ACTOR or something else now?

HERO - The Hero Initiative www.heroinitiative.org

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So although I know selling scans is not a popular idea with many here there certainly seems to be a market for them so why does'nt this site beat the pirates to it by selling their own discs mega-cheap plus costs ?

If the money (after costs) is used for charity or to help keep the site running, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with the idea. The result is the same in that the people who can't afford to buy the actual comics still get to read them.

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One, while we strive very hard to stay 100% PD we've proven ourselves wrong on occasion; while they can nail us even if we don't make money off it it becomes even easier once we do.

It depends how the cds were organized. If unquestionalby Public Domain material was all that was sold, then no problems. Anything where the status is "iffy" would require some additional research. Still, there's enough material that has been well-established and researched that something could be started once all the ducks were in a row.

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Two, a lot of us are resistant to the idea of selling our scans, even if we don't mind giving them away.

Well, the free downloads shouldn't go away, so they would still be available for free. Again, charity and keeping the site running are two big benefits of selling cds. For other members who may only have access to dial-up connections (like myself), the benefit is not having to wait hours for the larger files to download.

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Three, the quality of our scans varies wildly and at least speaking for myself I don't want to sell a product of highly variable quality.

I've never deleted a file because the quality of the scan was poor (even the blurry files of fiche) or a page was crooked or badly cropped, I'm just happy to be able to read books that for the most part I've never come across at stores or conventions. Let people know up-front what the quality of the scans are like and, unless they're total jerks, they should be ok with it.

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Four, in some cases we still don't know where our scans come from, or they're from people who don't actually post here. Even if we can, I wouldn't want to try and sell somebody's scans without clear permission.

OK, I agree with you on this point. Scans that were taken from outside sources should either be ignored or at least an effort made to contact the original scanner.

Quote
Five, we would need somebody to do the actual work of organizing, sorting, burning, selling, shipping, advertising, etc...

I would suggest a trial-run of sorts, only selling stuff here and not spending money setting-up an additional site that might not pan-out. The details of the operation would need to be hammered-out, but I can't imagine that some volunteers wouldn't step-up to the plate, especially if the money made is used for charity/helping the site. Keep it simple to start with and don't make it more work than it needs to be. We're not creating a business, just giving people options on how to get the files.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JonTheScanner on December 04, 2008, 08:39:06 PM: A couple of comments. First the eBay sellers may be getting the scans from ABPC not here so they'd not know that Animal was to be completed.

Animal might be a good CD to start with. I think that Eric, HP, Ontology and I have done all the scans for that series.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 05, 2008, 01:51:09 AM: Hi Guys,
I'm not sure how to think about this. Sadly I've seen money pull apart online friendships very easily. Second, we are talking about 100s of different scanners and who knows how each would feel knowing their scans were being offered for sale? Even for a good cause? We've never asked for ownership or control of the scans hosted on GAC so I'd feel quite torn by the idea of someone possibly being upset or offended by our using their scans in anyway other than our stated mission plan of sharing them for free with anyone happy enough to download them.

There's nothing to stop a scanner like Henry Peters who owns his books and did all his own scans from producing a 'Best of Henry Peters' cd to sell or for the gang behind The Animal Comics Collection for pulling something together though. I'd wish them the best of luck on any project they started. :)

Before anything like selling disks or even offering disks of scans at cost would happen the admins, moderators and Serj would all have to be onside of the idea.

I think the easiest solution for bchat would be to find a neighbour or institution with a high speed connection and a burner. Get them a list of books he wanted downloaded and then have them burn him disks. A burning buddy.

-Yoc
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 05, 2008, 03:20:04 AM: Quote
I think the easiest solution for bchat would be to find a neighbour or institution with a high speed connection and a burner. Get them a list of books he wanted downloaded and then have them burn him disks.

If only it were that simple, I would have already done it. Thing is, my area is located some distance from "civilization", so high-speed connections are rare/limited/expensive or, in the case of an "institution", about 30 minutes away from where I live. Most people I know who live anywhere near me don't even bother with the internet, and the few that do, it's with dial-up connections, so no help there. Besides, the majority of people I know aren't into comics, so they don't care that I have trouble downloading the larger files.

I hope that I wasn't giving the impression that I wanted this site to sell cds just for my benefit, because with two little ones running around the house, I don't have money burning a hole in my pocket. It would certainly make my life easier, but then I wouldn't have money to buy the few comics I still continue to collect (family comes first).
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 05, 2008, 06:25:34 AM: +1 karma for having your head on straight bchat. Family and real life should always take precedence over scans.

And no worries, I could see the idea has it's own merits and if we really felt they outweighed the downside it might be something to help people such as yourself and perhaps even keep the site financially in the black. But I personally would hope we don't come to that day. The headaches could be enormous even without the possible legal dangers...

:)
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: boox909 on December 05, 2008, 07:10:25 AM: Quote from: Yoc on December 05, 2008, 06:25:34 AM

+1 karma for having your head on straight bchat. Family and real life should always take precedence over scans.

I second that Yoc. bchat has no idea how much I admire his stance. I am ashamed that I thought ill of him previously.

B.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: OtherEric on December 05, 2008, 05:12:27 PM: I won't pretend to speak for everybody, but I think right now the idea of the site selling CD's of scans is "possibly worthwhile in the future, either for charity or to fund the site. So don't forget about it. But it's not worth worrying about right now unless somebody has a specific proposal."
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 05, 2008, 06:35:21 PM: Quote
I am ashamed that I thought ill of him previously

boox909 - No problems. We didn't get off on the right foot ... it happens.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 05, 2008, 07:05:12 PM: From your mouth to Freedyfly's ears bchat.
*sigh*

And yes, this might be an idea to think about one day down the road, preferably when we have more complete runs as well. :)

-Yoc
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: larrytalbot on December 06, 2008, 10:15:23 AM: Hey, Yoc,
Just want to let you know I matched your contribution of $25 for the JVJ postage fund. I Sent my check directly to JVJ to avoid getting involved with PayPal. Couldn't find your original post on this subject, so I'm slipping this note in here because I saw your name. Pardon my butting in here with inappropriate topic. If you have a string going for the postage fund, please let me know.

Re the topic of current string I interrupted: It would be nice if anone selling CDs copied from this site felt some obligation to share a small portion of their gains to this site. If they have a conscience it just might help them sleep better at night.

LT
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 06, 2008, 07:42:03 PM: Thanks great news Larry!
You can find the proper thread here:
http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1034.0.html

-Yoc
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: John C on December 12, 2008, 10:14:51 PM: I don't have the time to mess with this right now. But if anybody's interested in pursuing the "make CDs for low-bandwidth fans" idea as an on-demand process, it's pretty simple overall. I would approach it as a web application that takes a list of book URLs, downloads the files during off-peak hours, and uses a DVD-burning application to create what's called a disk image (ISO format, for the people who care, and all DVD software has an option to make them).

Then, once a week, the owner can download the images, burn them to a physical disk, and drop it in the mail with a hopefully-already-formatted mailing label from the payment system. In an ideal case, it could even have postage printed to the label, so that the only manual labor would be loading and unloading the DVD burner and stuffing the mailer.

I would be surprised if software for this didn't already exist, by the way, but a quick search didn't turn up anything interesting. I also thought there was a company that did specifically this sort of work for you, but again, I can't find them, so they might've shut down.

Not that I'm recommending it, mind you, but I figured since there was interest, I'd throw in whatever trivial insight I might have.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: citaltras on December 15, 2008, 03:19:39 PM: Precisely for helping people who don't have the time to download
comics one-by-one or the bandwidth to download a 50 MB file,
last year I started posting the GACP (Golden Age Chronology Project)
torrents with full collections of comics scans form this site
on our sister site zcultfm.
Many are still there and also available in other torrent sites.
The comics can be downloaded with any bittorrent program.
In total more than 32 torrents, about 1 GB of comics each.
Enough to burn 7 or 8 DVDs.
I am currently reseeding many of the torrents.
I had to stop posting new torrents because I don't have enough bandwidth to
seed everything.
So the torrents have not been updated with the new scans of the last year.

Contact me if you need more information.

By the way I have received several PM's from people asking me to burn the DVDs for them
(of course paying).
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bbbrown on December 17, 2008, 09:39:27 PM: I've even heard of people sending drives to people to fill up for them. With the prices of drives getting so low you can get a lot of comics on one drive :)
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 17, 2008, 09:49:25 PM: Why send a hard drive when a USB thumb drive can hold 4+ gigs, costs $15 and likely could be mailed for the price of a letter? And if you were to use a digital camera SD stick you wouldn't even need to worry about adding bulk to a normal letter!

-Yoc
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 20, 2008, 04:44:30 AM: Well, here's ANOTHER example of someone using scans found for free on GAC to make a buck on eBay.
This time it's 'CROYDEN GOLDEN AGE COMICS COLLECTION 18 ISSUES ON CD!'

http://tinyurl.com/9lv3p7

You gotta know where these all came from! *sigh*

-Yoc
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: boox909 on December 20, 2008, 05:41:40 AM: Quote from: Yoc on December 20, 2008, 04:44:30 AM

Well, here's ANOTHER example of someone using scans found for free on GAC to make a buck on eBay.
This time it's 'CROYDEN GOLDEN AGE COMICS COLLECTION 18 ISSUES ON CD!'

http://tinyurl.com/9lv3p7

You gotta know where these all came from! *sigh*

-Yoc

Yoc,

I think this can be nipped in the bud buy someone setting up an ebay account that offers to auction a disc of one or two scans from GA-UK -- only the auction runs for as long as ebay allows and GA-UK is promoted with something along the lines of "Win this disc in this auction or get the comics for free from GoldenAgeComics.co.uk!!!"

Just my two pence.

B.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 20, 2008, 07:46:54 AM: Not being an eBay user that's over my head B.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: John C on December 20, 2008, 04:09:12 PM: Before I say anything else, I should point out that I still see nothing specifically wrong with what's going on here. The books and (mostly) the scans are in the public domain. Part of being in the public domain is that you can use the material commercially. That's exactly how it's supposed to work.

Mind you, I object to the fellow's business model. It's not sustainable to only make freely-available digital copies at a price, for obvious reasons, boox pointing out the most effective: There's no defense against competition. However, it's no more objectionable than if I publish the works of Shakespeare.

That said, you (or individual scanners) could always add a page to the uploaded comics directing customers here with a "these and other comics are available for free" blurb.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on December 20, 2008, 04:29:57 PM: Quote from: jcolag on December 20, 2008, 04:09:12 PM

Before I say anything else, I should point out that I still see nothing specifically wrong with what's going on here. The books and (mostly) the scans are in the public domain. Part of being in the public domain is that you can use the material commercially. That's exactly how it's supposed to work.

Now, I'm not a lawyer (though I tend to play one with my twin nephews all too often), but I believe that you CAN copyright your scans of PD material - just like a photographer can copyright his/her photos of art pieces. There IS an 'art' in scanning and cleaning up that should be protected under the copyright laws. Just because your source material is PD, just means that ANYONE is allowed to scan it. But once YOU'VE scanned it, YOUR scan is your "interpretation" and a new work. Your scan has ZERO impact on the PD-ness of the original, nor its availability to others, but I believe the law would view it as "yours" and that anyone copying and selling YOUR scans would be in violation of YOUR copyright.

It's possible to insert a copyright watermark into a file that is invisible to the viewer but discernible by Photoshop. That's how you prove that a scan is yours, not a clever near duplication by another gifted scanner. Another way to prove it is to put the two scans into one PS file and use the "Difference" blending mode. If the results are pure black, it's your scan.

I'm completely ambivalent about the eBay seller because I agree with jcolag that it's not sustainable. When your business model depends on the ignorance of the consumer, it's not long for this world. But, then again, there might be a market among dial-up users for whom getting the scans on a CD is an advantage for which they will happily pay.

I like the idea of putting a page into the upload that directs readers to the GAC site. Good idea, jcolag.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 20, 2008, 04:48:12 PM: Quote
I think this can be nipped in the bud buy someone setting up an ebay account that offers to auction a disc of one or two scans from GA-UK -- only the auction runs for as long as ebay allows and GA-UK is promoted with something along the lines of "Win this disc in this auction or get the comics for free from GoldenAgeComics.co.uk!!!"

The best approach to take in order to have a "never-ending" listing is to have someone with an eBay Store handle it. Store Listings last "until cancelled" and only cost pennies a month to maintain ... beyond the cost of keeping the store open, that is.

Quote
I like the idea of putting a page into the upload that directs readers to the GAC site. Good idea, jcolag.

Except that the page could be easily removed from the files if the seller finds out. A better, but infinitely more time-consuming idea is to put a blurb ["go to goldenagecomics.co.uk to get thousands of books for free"] in the "gutters" of every page, somewhere in the middle so that it would take some effort for the seller to remove them all.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 20, 2008, 05:53:08 PM: I personally Hate the idea of watermarks b.
'GM' scans are ruined by them. To work they almost have to be inside the artwork. And if you make them less obtrusive they are easy to crop.
Finally I don't like the idea of use 'marking our territory' on scans that have been donated by scanners or sometime uploaded by a third party and the original scanner has no idea they are on our site let alone with our url all over them.

It's a no win situation. :(
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: John C on December 20, 2008, 06:10:49 PM: Mind you, this is just an educated guess, but I doubt a tag page would be removed by anybody in this line of business.

As someone (Eric or Jon, I believe) pointed out, the collections this guy sells are often incomplete, even when the last issue of a run is known to be released soon. That tells me that the business is a minimum effort production. Download a chunk of the site in an afternoon, run the listing, and burn the DVD. Editing the files to make them look professional would multiply the effort without increasing the profit.

As for the copyright on a scan, Bridgeman lost their lawsuit against Corel on that very premise. While (and I've made this argument elsewhere) there's a better case to be made for the heavily-restored books where the editor fixes things like off-register colors because the scan doesn't resemble the book as published, reproduction and restoration themselves are specifically not recognized as creative acts, at least based on this precedent.

I can never link to Wikipedia with a straight face, but if you look up the Bridgeman Art Library (itself a nifty company), you'll find the gory details. The upshot is that the courts found that Corel had every right to scan their slides for use as clip art.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: OtherEric on December 20, 2008, 06:37:59 PM: Well, as I've said before I do not consider the editing I do on my scans to be transformative enough to constitute a new work. And even if it was I _generally_ wouldn't want to limit what others could do with the material. I'm not thrilled with somebody selling my stuff without changes- which is why I started this thread to gripe- but there are other uses people can put the scans to, such as posting stories on blogs, which I'm completely cool with. (I only mention the stories on blogs because I've seen at least a few stories I've scanned show up there; credit would be nice but it's sure not needed.) Which is at least part of the reason I don't "sign" my scans at all unless I feel the need to share credit with somebody else, be it Jim for providing the book or an editor for their work.

I believe there is a very legitimate case to be made for "Is this transformative enough to be an original work." But I don't want my scans to be the test case, I want my scans to be available to the Public Domain. Which is why, in my speculation on how to go after the eBay seller on the Animals if we did, I was never looking at going after that disc. I may not like it but I admit his right to do it and, honestly, want him to have the right. So if I was to try and stop him (and just complaining was enough for me, I'm feeling much better about it now) I would have reported him on his non-PD discs, not the ones from here.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on December 20, 2008, 06:39:13 PM: Quote from: Yoc on December 20, 2008, 05:53:08 PM

I personally Hate the idea of watermarks b.
'GM' scans are ruined by them. To work they almost have to be inside the artwork. And if you make them less obtrusive they are easy to crop.

Watermarks can be undetectable by the eye, Yoc, when applied by certain software programs. One comes bundled with Photoshop. It's called Digimarc and you can't see the mark, but Photoshop and a Digimarc reader can. The scan-lifters wouldn't even know they were there, but you could prove they were yours - if you wanted to. They even remain when a scan is printed and REscanned.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Yoc on December 20, 2008, 07:14:05 PM: Right, saw that option in PS, never used it.
BUT then the problem because someone (an army would be needed) has to download every scan on the site, add the watermarks, and save. Then upload them again.

Volunteers anyone? ......

Hey, where did everyone go??

:)
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on December 20, 2008, 08:40:48 PM: Quote from: Yoc on December 20, 2008, 07:14:05 PM

Right, saw that option in PS, never used it.
BUT then the problem because someone (an army would be needed) has to download every scan on the site, add the watermarks, and save. Then upload them again.

Volunteers anyone? ......

Hey, where did everyone go??

:)

All the smart people have left the room, yoc,
that just leaves you and me and I suspect you're on your way out the door.

Seriously though, no need to make it retroactive, but for those people who DO care about their work on their scans, the option is there for the future. Jim's Third Law: The Past is Over.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: rez on December 20, 2008, 09:22:07 PM: Excellent point Jim. Positively nothing wrong with marking a scan designating it's origin. The scan is still going to be available for personal consumption, blogs, or what have you.

Just the idea of someone personally profiting financially due to the volunteer efforts of others rubs me wrong and if there is a way to counter the abuse of such it should be welcomed. Think of the huge number of manhours involved in the formation and continued running of this site can be staggering. The behind the scenes administrative efforts of the crew, scan times multiplied, and just the fact that YOC lives here. heh heh Three cheers for YOC, quite a gentleman and long distance goldenage runner he be. ;D

Now, if the said parties in question were to dedicate a percentage of the profits to the maintainance of this site then that would go a long way towards soothing the savage beast.

Personally I go out of my way to tag my scans and edits in various ways that aren't readily evident in that it appears visually obtrusive to the artwork or story as in a short blurb in the indica, the data page or various points within the storyline.

I for one am interested in the watermark feature you spoke of earlier.
Cheers
Quote

All the smart people have left the room, yoc,
that just leaves you and me and I suspect you're on your way out the door.

Seriously though, no need to make it retroactive, but for those people who DO care about their work on their scans, the option is there for the future. Jim's Third Law: The Past is Over.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on December 20, 2008, 09:31:20 PM: Quote from: rez on December 20, 2008, 09:22:07 PM

Excellent point Jim. Positively nothing wrong with marking a scan designating it's origin. The scan is still going to be available for personal consumption, blogs, or what have you.

Just the idea of someone personally profiting financially due to the volunteer efforts of others rubs me wrong and if there is a way to counter the abuse of such it should be welcomed. Think of the huge number of manhours involved in the formation and continued running of this site can be staggering. The behind the scenes administrative efforts of the crew, scan times multiplied, and just the fact that YOC lives here. heh heh Three cheers for YOC, quite a gentleman and long distance goldenage runner he be. ;D

Yes, hip, hip, hooray for you yoc.

Quote

Now, if the said parties in question were to dedicate a percentage of the profits to the maintainance of this site then that would go a long way towards soothing the savage beast.

Personally I go out of my way to tag my scans and edits in various ways that aren't readily evident in that it appears visually obtrusive to the artwork or story as in a short blurb in the indica, the data page or various points within the storyline.

I for one am interested in the watermark feature you spoke of earlier.
Cheers

Check out this site, rez:
https://www.digimarc.com/sw/downloadsnew.asp?PLATFORM=WinPlugIn

The watermarks work with Photoshop or PS Elements, but there is a yearly fee for the service. But as I said, you can then download ANY file off the Internet that you recognize and confirm that it IS or ISN'T yours. After that, the slope gets slipperier and the path to take less certain.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: John C on December 20, 2008, 10:02:16 PM: Just before anybody spends money, though, I'll toss in what little I know about digital watermarks.

As I understand it, the most common approach is to take your identifying information (a code number), split it into pieces, and scatter it around the image, hiding it in noise. I won't bother explaining the math, but you can think of it as taking specific pixels and changing the color slightly. For example, you can play "odds or evens" with the RGB value.

As the site's FAQ explains, it's nice and fast.

However...if someone knows you watermark your images? Well, just about any change to the image (color or size) changes the RGB values of the pixels, so it's pretty easy to foil. Brighten the image and the red, green, and blue all increase. Crop just a tiny bit, and the software can't find the right pixels anymore.

That's not to say it's a bad idea for some people, but for most uses, I'd be wary of spending money to protect something that you've released as free.

And as a paranoid sidenote, I notice that they don't explain their algorithm. It scares me when security companies don't, because it usually means it's not a very mature system. It's like a shopping mall refusing to tell you how many security guards are on duty; all things being equal, it usually means they're embarassed by the answer.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 20, 2008, 10:06:44 PM: Quote
but there are other uses people can put the scans to, such as posting stories on blogs, which I'm completely cool with. (I only mention the stories on blogs because I've seen at least a few stories I've scanned show up there; credit would be nice but it's sure not needed.)

Of the blogs I frequent, most acknowledge when they get the scans from here and provide a link for readers to follow so they can DL the entire books, although they don't credit the individual scanners.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: rez on December 20, 2008, 10:15:36 PM: Makes one wonder is there is presently a re-revival of goldenage awareness among the previously untouched masses or what,

that is putting the desire for veiwing into a more prominent stage of late.

I notice this site seems to be growing more in that I'm beginning to be tempted to let some of the new threads go by without reading them.(Holy wonders there, Batman)

With growth comes attention and perhaps sooner or later a position will have to be adopted regarding the profiteering of some from the sites scans. Sad but true. Don't you hate being forced to decision?

Makes one wonder if a GAC Watermark could be purchased just for use of the site and some type of program initiated to provide that watermark to the scans if requested. Big row to hoe but the ways of the world will infiltrate even a hobbyists domain. That is if hobbyists is a word :-X

If the adminstrators were to deem this subject worthy as to be approachable in thought I would gladly supply the first $10 towards a fund to purchase the $79 membership I saw mentioned on the title page of the blurb.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on December 20, 2008, 10:51:22 PM: I have no doubt that any watermarking scheme can be overcome by a dedicated and determined thief. Just as no home security system is going to save you from professionals. But I don't think most people taking and selling scans are pros. I think they are opportunists. However, someone with only a dial-up connection, like Chet who recently joined, might find it very handy to get his books on CD/DVD instead of as downloads. If GAC isn't providing that service, it's kind of hard to fault someone who is. That's Capitalism for you.

Rather than fight the battle of eBay, why doesn't someone who has time and the inclination, put up an item on eBay offering ANY 30 GAC scans on a DVD for bid? Put the link in the ad so people will a: know about the site and b: figure out which 30 (or 25 or whatever fits on a DVD) books they want. You'll solve both problems. Those who WANT DVDs instead of downloads get their "product" and those who don't know about GAC find out about it. That'll make it rather hard for ANYONE to pirate the scans and market them.

Either someone will make a little money or we'll find out that there isn't much demand for GA scans on DVD and we shouldn't worry about the rip-off guys.

Just a suggestion.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: rez on December 20, 2008, 11:46:38 PM: That makes sense and certainly an avenue worth of inquiry.
True, a signature and watermark would do nothing but keep out the paperboy and if one were serious enough would be sidestepping by suppying the time and effort to clean the scans of any trail markings.

However, a thought on ignoring the issue comes into play thinking perhaps some might not be interested in providing books for scans if they think they might end up in a for profit market somewhere.

I say this as having met several dealers over the years with a wide variety of books always available in large numbers.
I was considering approaching some to inquire if they might be willing to donate the use of their low quality books for the scanning purpose of supplying the scans here, being done when in the area setting up for a show via a portable setup right there at a show.

I have a feeling many dealers are true comic enthusists at heart and would like nothing better than to help comicdom's group effort if personal profit is not involved.

It might help to have a rough estimate of how many more PD pre '55 thereabouts books would be needed to finish this endeavor

in order to formulate a plan of action outside of just moving forward a little here a little there.

But I suppose I'm just rambling...
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 21, 2008, 01:54:48 AM: Quote
Rather than fight the battle of eBay, why doesn't someone who has time and the inclination, put up an item on eBay offering ANY 30 GAC scans on a DVD for bid? Put the link in the ad so people will a: know about the site and b: figure out which 30 (or 25 or whatever fits on a DVD) books they want. You'll solve both problems. Those who WANT DVDs instead of downloads get their "product" and those who don't know about GAC find out about it

If you're into playing by the rules, then this might not be the option everyone thinks it would be. eBay has guidelines as to what you can and can't say on their site. Linking to outside sites in your listing is generally frowned upon [there are exceptions] and could result in not only the listing being removed but by the seller account being suspended. It's been a while since I last checked the rules of eBay [I know what I need to know to do what I need to do], but I can't imagine much has changed. A way around the issue would be to have the listing include all available files with the buyer choosing 30 (or whatever) issues for one price. You might be able to get away with saying where the files are coming from as long it doesn't end-up being a true link to the site. IF anyone is interested in pursuing the idea further, I'ld be more than happy to help do additional research and double-check what eBay does or doesn't allow regarding listings and outside websites so nobody from here gets into any trouble.

Quote
perhaps some might not be interested in providing books for scans if they think they might end up in a for profit market somewhere.

I might be alone in my way of thinking, but before I scanned the comics I've added, the thought of "someone might take that upload and sell it on eBay or use the stories for their blog without giving proper credit to this site" did cross my mind. My solution? I took some of the stories and posted them to a blog first. Being the first person to post them anywhere online was my "payment", because I got to make use of the stories before anyone else. What happens after I upload the books is of no concern to me now since I got what I wanted out of them (besides actually owning the books, of course).
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: phabox on December 21, 2008, 09:05:15 AM: I also try and make use of my newly scanned books on the yahoo groups before 'releasing' them to this site.

After that they are to my mind like grown up children that have left home.

I try to keep an eye on them and what they get up to but ultimately they are 'on their own' once they have left me :(.

-Nigel
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: citaltras on December 21, 2008, 12:41:42 PM: This discussion reminds me when the GM people asked to
remove their scans form the site. Then our argument was that one cannot
copyright a scan of a copyright-free book. Now it is the opposite: we can.

You have to take into account that
many of the scans here were not made for this site.
They are just stored here. And many of them are available
and shared using P2P programs like bittorrent, DC++, and also on direct-link sites.
As I told you I myself shared in torrents many of the Fawcett, Quality, Fiction House, Better, etc.
So there is no sense to watermark those comics now, since they are available through many
other sources, not only on goldenagecomics.co.uk. And sharing is a way to avoid people selling
those scans online. But still there are people who don't know about p2p and don't have
the time or bandwidth to download teens of GB, and will want to buy the comics on DVD.
I don't see anything wrong with that.

Now if you digitally watermark the NEW releases (if it can be done),
what would be the next step?
Would you proceed to copyright the scans? How? And would you allow the people
to share those scans on P2P programs?

By the way most of the GA comics found on this site and elsewhere are on-sale on DVD
on ebay by seller scifier2. This is what he adds to his scans:

*BEWARE OF PURCHASING THESE ANYWHERE ELSE! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!*

WE HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS RESTORING, RE-MASTERING & RE-DIGITIZING OUR MATERIALS TO GIVE YOU THE BEST QUALITY AVAILABLE. YOU WILL NOT FIND THIS QUALITY ANYWHERE ELSE. WE HAVE CORRECT FORMATS & FILE NAMES AND FREE COMIC VIEWING SOFTWARE FOR PC OR MAC.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: narfstar on December 21, 2008, 01:30:22 PM: Has anyone gotten any of these dvd's? Are they more than just direct rips from here? If they have improved on the scans then more power to them in selling. I think most most here object to is that we are doing all the work and doing if for free sharing and they are selling it. If they put on the DVD's that they got them form this site or others and gave a shout out to the scanners I think we would be cool with it.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 21, 2008, 01:49:32 PM: Quote
By the way most of the GA comics found on this site and elsewhere are on-sale on DVD
on ebay by seller scifier2. This is what he adds to his scans:

*BEWARE OF PURCHASING THESE ANYWHERE ELSE! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!*

WE HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS RESTORING, RE-MASTERING & RE-DIGITIZING OUR MATERIALS TO GIVE YOU THE BEST QUALITY AVAILABLE. YOU WILL NOT FIND THIS QUALITY ANYWHERE ELSE. WE HAVE CORRECT FORMATS & FILE NAMES AND FREE COMIC VIEWING SOFTWARE FOR PC OR MAC.

I've seen his listings, too, and find it odd that he doesn't have any books that don't appear here on his cds/dvds. I'm not sure if it's his stuff or someone else's, but I have seen some listings contain "before and after" pictures of the scans. If this guy is putting some effort into the work (straightening pages, adjusting the color/brightness, etc), well, that's better than just taking the files and selling them as is.

Quote
This discussion reminds me when the GM people asked to
remove their scans form the site. Then our argument was that one cannot
copyright a scan of a copyright-free book. Now it is the opposite: we can.

I can only speak for myself, but the issue I have with what people like scifier2 may be doing is taking the files from here, not giving this sight any credit at all, and passing-off the work as their own. I'm big on "giving credit where credit's due", and while I certainly can understand not listing every single scanner for their work, at least mention the site and let people know they can get these books for free if they want to take the time.

And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe anyone was strictly saying that people couldn't make use of the files or that this is an issue of copyrights, just that an effort should be made to acknowledge where the scans are coming from at the very least.

Quote
Would you proceed to copyright the scans? How?

Well, that's easy. Scan the books, make noticable changes to the layout or artwork, and file for a Copyright. In the Copyright Notice you would then be including with the file, you can make allowances for people to share the files so long as they do not use the scans to generate money, blah blah blah. The downside is that you're changing the appearance of the books as they were originally published and creating more work for yourself while gaining some ability to control how those scans are used.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: phabox on December 21, 2008, 03:10:06 PM: Maybe someone here should BUY some CD's from this guy.

it would give us a chance to see if there is any upgrading done to 'our' scans and may also give us a clue as to his identity.

If he's a member here and we find out WHO he is we can then act accordingly........ !

-Nigel
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: narfstar on December 21, 2008, 03:21:23 PM: Even if it is someone here I would not have a problem as long as they give credit to the site and scanners. I would ask that they leave my narfstar. I try to put it on a coupon or bottom of a page so it is not in the way. Just something to consider someone 50 years from now looking at a scan of mine and wondering who or what the heck a narfstar was :P
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: phabox on December 21, 2008, 03:26:53 PM: Yeah, thay may also wonder what the heck a 'Phabox' was while their at it ;).

-Nigel
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: boox909 on December 21, 2008, 06:34:53 PM: Quote from: citaltras on December 21, 2008, 12:41:42 PM

This discussion reminds me when the GM people asked to remove their scans form the site. Then our argument was that one cannot copyright a scan of a copyright-free book. Now it is the opposite: we can.

::crawling up to the top of the soapbox::

I still like my idea: "I think this can be nipped in the bud by someone setting up an ebay account that offers to auction a disc of one or two scans from GA-UK -- only the auction runs for as long as ebay allows and GA-UK is promoted with something along the lines of "Win this disc in this auction or get the comics for free from GoldenAgeComics.co.uk!!!"

If anything, the idea should be to steer traffic to GA-UK. No encumbering per page watermarks. No logic twisting justifications in an effort to create copyright where there is none. Simply put, my idea would be to direct traffic to GA-UK where the winner/buyer of a $2 dvd disc with a few intro titles (10 or less) can discover the abundance of titles available for free and spread the news to their associates.

I have no ill will for Scifer2 (who most assuredly is a GA-UK member and for all I know has contributed scans to the site), and s/he serves a valid function for some -- however, unless someone is willing to harness Ebay in order to direct traffic to GA-UK, complaining about what Scifer2 does is pretty much armchair sport.

I admit upfront that I have no desire to run such an effort. And I would feel uncomfortable in even doing so given that GA-UK is not my site...so to speak...but I do believe that my idea is sound and I would even contribute blank discs for such an effort.

In closing, I do not actually care that scifer2 is doing what they are doing. If I did not know about GA-UK and stumbled upon scifer2's offerings I would be funding their Xmas shopping this year. :D

However, I do care that a well constructed alternative that promotes traffic and awareness of GA-UK has not been offered.

::falling off of soapbox -- ouch. ::

B.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: rez on December 21, 2008, 06:44:28 PM: Yes, that is certainly another idea of merit.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Geo (R.I.P.) on December 21, 2008, 08:17:30 PM: Quote from: narfstar on December 21, 2008, 03:21:23 PM

Even if it is someone here I would not have a problem as long as they give credit to the site and scanners. I would ask that they leave my narfstar. I try to put it on a coupon or bottom of a page so it is not in the way. Just something to consider someone 50 years from now looking at a scan of mine and wondering who or what the heck a narfstar was :P

I agree that credit to those scanners who did the original scans should be left on them. Case in point: One set of my scans have been put on another site with the file size changed and my name tag removed from the file. I'm not against sharing at all, that's why I do them, but please leave the scanners name and don't mess with the file other then maybe correcting the page order (as some are out of order when posted up) but not by repackage them by re-sizing them then basically claiming that you did them (by removing the original scanners name when posting them up). I'm sure this has happened to others here too.
As to selling them on a CD/DVD, I'd have no problem with that as long as the original scanner/editors/contributor are credited when known. That's my 2
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 21, 2008, 09:15:03 PM: boox909 -
Quote
I still like my idea: "I think this can be nipped in the bud by someone setting up an ebay account that offers to auction a disc of one or two scans from GA-UK -- only the auction runs for as long as ebay allows and GA-UK is promoted with something along the lines of "Win this disc in this auction or get the comics for free from GoldenAgeComics.co.uk!!!"

If anything, the idea should be to steer traffic to GA-UK. No encumbering per page watermarks. No logic twisting justifications in an effort to create copyright where there is none. Simply put, my idea would be to direct traffic to GA-UK where the winner/buyer of a $2 dvd disc with a few intro titles (10 or less) can discover the abundance of titles available for free and spread the news to their associates.

I would suggest anyone who attempted this idea to proceed with caution. Setting-up a new eBay account isn't as easy as it was years ago (a credit card is required to sell or buy) and I doubt anyone here would want to risk having their own account suspended. eBay has policies against having links or directing traffic to sites other than those related to eBay or for the sole purpose of further detailing the item being sold. While eBay does not specifically state that linking to a site such as GAC is off-limits, they leave the door open to take action if they felt like it. Keep in mind, as well, that if the disc doesn't sell, eBay still wants to be paid, and that "auction style listings" only last, at best, for 10 days (which also increases the fees to be paid). To list something with the "Buy-It-Now" option, your feedback needs to be at a certain level, unless you sell the items through a "Store Listing", but then you're talking about $16 a month in store fees alone that needs to be covered.

If someone were to take your idea and move forward with it, I have some suggestions. 1st: Don't sell dvds if you're only offering 10 titles, a cd should hold the files just as well and they cost less. 2nd: Refrain from mentioning GAC in the listing BUT have the cd set-up so the that the buyer is well aware of the site, either through a "Read Me" file or something that automatically pops-up every time a file is opened. It will annoy the buyer but at the same time drive home the point that the books are available for free. Maybe have it phrased to say something along the lines of "This file was uploaded to the goldenagecomics website by so-and-so and is available to download for free, along with 1000s of other copyright-free books."

And I know it's not the topic of debate here, but it was brought-up before about contacting eBay about listings that violate Copyrights. This is eBay's policy regarding that: "Only the intellectual property rights owner can report potentially infringing items or listings ... If you are not the intellectual property rights owner, you can still help by getting in touch with the rights owner and encouraging them to contact us".
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: boox909 on December 21, 2008, 09:18:53 PM: Well Bchat...I think the solution is almost at hand -- or at least, flushed out on paper enough for someone to come along and do something productive with the ideas presented. ;D

B.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on December 21, 2008, 09:20:24 PM: I didn't really expect a dynamic link to the GAC site, bc,
and the ad would have to specify that what was being auctioned was a SERVICE that resulted in a PRODUCT. I don't see as much different from someone offering a "Any five DVDs from this list of PD movies".

Still, your knowledge of and experience with eBay is guaranteed to be much more extensive than mine, so I bow to that knowledge and retract my suggestions.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: John C on December 21, 2008, 09:49:39 PM: Random thoughts:

- I wasn't trying to talk anybody out of using the watermarking system, and hope nobody took it that way. However, keep in mind that the number of "hackers" that would be willing to remove a "tag" page and are willing to override any piracy protection whatsoever is pretty slim. Generally, my experience is that people who recycle material are either lazy (in it for the money) or highly motivated (are trying to add substantial value), without much in between.

- Funny thing about those tag pages: Technically, they're the only parts of your books not in the public domain, so anybody redistributing them is violating your rights if you didn't give them permission. I'm not saying that you should pursue the matter, but do go easy on people who do remove them. It could be a sign of respect, rather than the contrary.

- The value of being first is what, though not officially, Dover Books (among other companies, I'm sure) is all about. They churn out new titles every month, a good number in the public domain. I'm sure they know darn well that everything in that situation is going to end up on Project Gutenberg or someplace similar within a few years, so they stay ahead of the curve and keep their prices way down.

- I'm not an auction type, but BChat's warning should be taken to heart. Setting up shop on the Internet isn't the free ride it once was, and the larger companies will suck every dollar from you they can in the name of preventing fraud. A better idea might be to partner with an existing comic dealer, offering him a cut for helping out; this also has the advantage of making inroads with good dealers.

- Following up on the CD "read me" idea, this is pretty easy from a technical standpoint. If you plug "autorun.inf" into your favorite search engine, one of the first few links will show you how to get a CD, DVD, USB drive, or even a hard drive to automatically launch a program or file; you can (and probably should) also set the icon and name that shows up in Explorer. Or feel free to give me a holler if you need some help with it.

- The user selling the books probably isn't on the forum, though would obviously have an account. As several people have noted, he always seems to release just before a key book that'd help him is released as well. If he was reading along (and don't be ashamed to speak up if you are--you're not doing anything inappropriate, even if it is rubbing people the wrong way), he'd be releasing more complete sets.

- Which reminds me...I don't want to sound all high and mighty, especially since I don't yet have any scans, but this is not worth the posturing I see here. Whatever the person's identity (and I actually have a guess or two), he's doing nothing illegal or even unethical. Nobody here has any recourse because the material is in the public domain. And even if you did, is anybody really going to take the guy to court for selling your copies of public domain material? What's the damage you're looking to recoup? In other words, take a deeeep breath, here. If you wish ill on the guy, just remind yourself that he has a terrible business model and can't maintain a profitable level of sales for very long in this way.

- If he is cleaning up the scans better than people here, it might be worth springing for the DVDs and posting the contents here. Turnabout is fair play, after all, and there's nothing wrong with "outsourcing" a little work when it's done well. And doing so may draw the guy into the community when he realizes that we're borrowing back.

I think that's about all I've got. I hope that helps...uhm...somebody with something.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on December 21, 2008, 10:34:19 PM: JVJ -
Quote
I didn't really expect a dynamic link to the GAC site, bc,
and the ad would have to specify that what was being auctioned was a SERVICE that resulted in a PRODUCT. I don't see as much different from someone offering a "Any five DVDs from this list of PD movies".

Still, your knowledge of and experience with eBay is guaranteed to be much more extensive than mine, so I bow to that knowledge and retract my suggestions.

Yes, I do have a little experience buying & selling on eBay: buying for over a decade and selling since 2005 (wow, time flies). I also "play by the rules", even though I see countless other sellers working around the system and getting away with it. That's fine for them, but it's not the kind of person I want to be. With that said, "Any five DVDs from this list of PD movies" is (if I remember correctly because it's been a while since I read anything specifically regarding listings like that so I could be wrong if they changed their policy) a violation of eBay's listing policies. Apparently nobody cares enough to ever report it, or if they do then eBay doesn't take the time to do anything about it. The problem eBay has with listings like that is that they would prefer that someone had multiple listings for specific items rather than one listing for "optional items" because then eBay would be collecting fees for each individual listing, generating more money for them. eBay doesn't come right out and say that, but if you can read between the lines it's as plain as day. It's also why they switched to "PayPal only" payments, dropping checks and money orders from their payment options. They claim it's to protect the consumer, but I suspect that it has more to do with their close association with PayPal (I believe they own PayPal), which on certain types of accounts collects a fee for receiving funds. eBay gets the good PR for "protecting the buyer" while at the same time getting rid of those nasty checks and MO's that PayPal wasn't making money from.

I only pointed-out having a link within the listing as a precaution. Someone might be able to get away with it, but if we're trying to be honorable and make people aware that they're paying high prices for books they can get for free, why take the chance that your listing gets knocked-off of eBay if one of their employees is in a bad mood and decides that Yes, you are breaking the rules as far as they feel like interpreting them that particular day. It's really a matter of "hit or miss" in regards to rule violations. I've pointed-out things to eBay and sometimes they take action, sometimes they don't. Again, why take the chance?

jcolag -
Quote
- The user selling the books probably isn't on the forum, though would obviously have an account. As several people have noted, he always seems to release just before a key book that'd help him is released as well. If he was reading along (and don't be ashamed to speak up if you are--you're not doing anything inappropriate, even if it is rubbing people the wrong way), he'd be releasing more complete sets.

I've seen several people selling cds and dvds of these books on eBay, so I doubt it's just one person doing this. More than likely, the guy you're referring to simply has bad timing when downloading the books, missing the files that would complete the set.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: paw broon on January 07, 2009, 08:55:07 PM: These scans on ebay. If we are talking about CDs with umpteen comics on each for viewing on a computer, then there were a lot for sale at the last Collectormania in Glasgow in December. One of the DVD dealers was doing quite a trade in them, and I seem to recall there were some at a comic mart a couple of years back, again being sold behind the pitch of them being much cheaper than the original comics. Hope this is of some interest.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: rez on January 07, 2009, 10:41:18 PM: They'll be no stopping it.

Best we can do is imprint 'goldenagecomics.co.uk' throughout the book in different panels and at least receive free press from the use of 'our' scans.

Thinking most sellers involved aren't going to see editing for the removal of the addy as worth the while.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: OtherEric on January 07, 2009, 11:29:48 PM: I have no interest in imprinting anything in my scans; I want them as 'clean' as I can make them so others can use them. The only use I have a problem with- and really, venting here was enough- is people selling the scans you can get free. And honestly, I have MUCH less problem with them selling discs at cons. Not sure why, anybody with a computer good enough to read the scans should be able to reach eBay. But it doesn't rub me nearly as wrong.

I do appreciate the heads up that they are selling at cons, though.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: narfstar on January 08, 2009, 12:23:45 AM: I stick my narfstar on an ad coupon in the books that I scan. I think it is kind of neat to think about it going all over the world. I would think putting OtherEric or Narfstar as the name and goldenagecomics.co.uk as the address on some ad page would be pretty cool. That page could always be left out but what the hey.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on January 08, 2009, 02:14:16 AM: What if ... ??? We make a "fake ad page" that looked like something that would appear in a GA book, saying something like "Get your Golden Age books for FREE at goldenagecomics. Stop paying high prices for the same thing we already have. Download key issues, first appearances and more, all in color for not-even-a-dime! Registration is FREE!" ... or whatever works. We could even ad "This comic scanned by ___" somewhere in there. Then, it's a simple matter of adding that one page to our files without disrupting the original pages, somewhere between stories or at the end of the book so they don't seem out-of-place. IF we assume that the people selling our scans don't really look at what they're taking, or at best just skim through the scans to see what stories are there, there's less chance that they would take-out a page that doesn't scream "I don't belong here!", such as any page with the scanner's name.

Obviously, the design of such a page would have to be subtle, so that even the most diligent of cd/dvd makers might miss it, yet interesting enough that any readers of these scans would take the time to read it. We're a smart bunch. It shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. I have ideas but due to a current problem with my leg (nothing serious, just annoying), I can't sit at the computer for more than an hour or it starts to hurt like heck.

Now, I'm not suggesting that someone goes through all the current files and adds such a page to them, since that's kind of pointless for the people who have already taken those scans. Maybe pick one or two key issues from a series or publisher already here and "updating them", which should be enough for any future "sellers". But, it is something that could be added to new scans, which is what the current "sellers" would be taking to add to their cds/dvds.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: paw broon on January 08, 2009, 02:46:44 PM: It's only just occurred to me that the CDs I saw at Glasgow included Marvel and D.C. stories. For example Captain America strips. Surely these can't be public domain.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: boox909 on January 08, 2009, 03:23:39 PM: Quote from: paw broon on January 08, 2009, 02:46:44 PM

It's only just occurred to me that the CDs I saw at Glasgow included Marvel and D.C. stories. For example Captain America strips. Surely these can't be public domain.

Those particular files would not be public domain in the U.S. and I doubt they would be so in Europe...although I do not think of Scotland as Europe...Scotland is beyond Europe and therefore more interesting. ;D

B.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: John C on January 08, 2009, 05:08:55 PM: I do think the tag is the best idea. It's optional for those scanners who want it. It doesn't hurt anybody who's using the book commercially (whether they leave it in or remove it). And it's free advertising (for this site and the scanner's, should that be desired; see Darkmark's scans as the start of a model, maybe) where it's not removed.

I'd recommend a notice along the lines of (but not the same as, of course) Creative Commons licenses, where you indicate that the book is in the public domain, but please leave the tag in if the reader is planning to redistribute the book. Or you can go the other direction, like Project Gutenberg, and insist that, if the book is altered in any way, that the tag be removed so that you can't be blamed for someone else's foul-up.

Again, I strongly suspect that anybody who's selling these without waiting for a complete run is NOT checking the books or carefully removing evidence that they didn't physically scan the books. That would be too much work for no profit, which is almost always the name of the public domain game. In other words, if you feel like you're being used, you might as well make use of what work is being done by the third party.

And I really wouldn't bother with watermarking. The goal of scanning public domain material is to make it available, not to hoard it or punish people for using it. It's like the old joke about teaching the pig to sing: It's too much work and it annoys the pig.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: LOHAD on January 13, 2009, 01:55:43 PM: A very interesting discussion. As someone who is very active on Backstreets.com, where a LOT of Brucelegging of concerts takes place (and many discussions similar in nature to this one result) let me toss my $.02 into the ring:

---I think watermarking each page of a scan is a bad idea, but I don't see anything wrong with adding a "signature page" from the scanner that includes a GA-UK plug in it. This spreads the word about GA-UK, and over time the reputation of the site (and the individual scanners) for seeding quality scans will grow. However: The signature page should ALWAYS be the last page of the scan; I've seen plenty of scans where you open the book in Comic Reader, and the scanner's sig page comes up as the front cover. I find that obnoxious.

---I think assembling data discs (CD or DVD) of GA-UK scans and distributing over eBay to help fund the site is a superb idea. I originally discovered the world of digital comics through an eBay data DVD (not Golden Age; I won't say what it was, though). That led me to the comics newsgroups and before long I wound up here. Anyway, the point is: A series of GA-UK discs would be pretty sweet, maybe set up as "The Golden 100 Series" -- 100 pre-code horror books, 100 pre-code romance, 100 books with jungle women, 100 books with crush-the-nazis covers, 100 books with Steve Ditko art, 100 Plastic Man books, etc. -- (might every collection need to be genre-related, or could artist and character collections be created without getting anyone's copyright shorts in a bunch?) I have a burner and I often create cover art for my Brucelegs; I anticipate creating these sorts of discs (and cover art) for myself before long as my GA-UK collection grows; I'm happy to volunteer my services to assist in making this happen (I have a 100% positive eBay rating; I've been selling stuff there for years). Most sellers on eBay sell scans on a disc in a paper sleeve; creating snappy cover art and selling them in a plastic DVD case with art (and including viewing software in the disc) would elevate the GA-UK discs on eBay above the rest (making them the GA equivalent of Crystal Cat, for any Bruceleg fans out there!)
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: narfstar on January 13, 2009, 03:10:22 PM: I think selling discs for the site is a good idea and would be willing to help. I think we can start by putting new scans on disc before we put them onsite. They would be available no where else. I know that makes us wait onsite but I think the revenue would be worth the wait. Any extra money beyond site expense can go to buying some books to scan then putting them back on ebay. I spend a lot of my own money now to buy books just to scan and post. We could accumulate some money to buy some books beyond my expenses. We can include on ebay and on the discs that they are available for free here.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JonTheScanner on January 13, 2009, 06:54:29 PM: I really disagree narfstar. If the original distribution is via disk, someone is going to be spending a lot of time burning and mailing disks (if the scan gets widely distributed). A CD will easily hold 20 comics generally many more. Are the CDs to be standardized (the next 20-30 scans go on one CD), or do you propose to individualize them to a purchaser. Who's going to keep track if the scan that I upload is a new scan or one that GAUK doesn't have but has been floating around for several years so should not be on the CD of new scans. I think all that is time better spent elsewhere.

Most eligible scans from ABPC get uploaded here quickly and most scans first put here go there or on other hubs equally quickly.

I don't mind distributing GAUK scans for cost + something, but I do not want to see that be the primary or even initial method.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: narfstar on January 13, 2009, 09:39:28 PM: I am not married to the idea. Just a thought to maybe produce some revenue and prevent someone from jumping the gun on us.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on January 14, 2009, 05:05:51 AM: Like any business model that relies on the ignorance of the customer, DVD sales of free scans are going to diminish all by themselves as people catch on to the existence of GACUK and other sites. I suggest simply waiting them out. I'll even help their demise by putting a link on my website. Everyone else with a site or blog should do the same thing. The more links we have to GAC the higher it'll rise in Google searches.

I vote for patience as the most potent weapon we can bring to bear.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: phabox on January 14, 2009, 09:26:03 AM: As ever Jim speaks with great wisdom and I also think thats the way forward although CD collections are still a nice idea for anyone stuck with a dial up connection.

-Nigel
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on January 14, 2009, 03:11:55 PM: Quote
I'll even help their demise by putting a link on my website. Everyone else with a site or blog should do the same thing. The more links we have to GAC the higher it'll rise in Google searches.

I've had a link to this site on my blog almost since Day One and explained in one blog entry what people can expect when they get here. When I post a story to my blog from a book I own (which is about once a month or so), I again mention this site just in case I have a "new reader". I have no clue if my blog has given this site more exposure, but I feel it's important for people to know that they don't have to pay to read stories that they can get for free.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: LOHAD on January 14, 2009, 03:58:27 PM: Two cents from this n00b: I agree with JVJ and bchat 100 percent in principle. In reality, people arrive here from all different directions. One of those directions is Google searching, another is a link from any of our blogs or sites, another is discovery via eBay scans, and so on and so on and so it goes. One person can be waited out to discover GA-UK, but the Web population as a whole is a big ol' honkin' stinkin' mess and the selling of free scans will continue, no matter how many links and stories are posted by all of us here. So why not pull the rug out from under the free-scan sellers who are making profit for themselves and sell "GA-UK approved" scan discs that (a) give the buyer more value (better packaging, some real information), (b) heighten awareness of GA-UK through mentions on both the discs and the eBay listings themselves, and (c) generate a few bucks to help keep GA-UK running -- and, ideally, expanding via the purchase of new books to scan?
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: bchat on January 14, 2009, 07:39:23 PM: Quote
sell "GA-UK approved" scan discs that (a) give the buyer more value (better packaging, some real information),

Better packaging equals increased costs. I know it's easy to look at the cost of making one disc and say "it wouldn't cost that much to make one disc or ten", but you would need to cover "bulk costs" upfront to get the ball rolling. You're also talking about the cost of paper and ink to print labels and create packaging or paying a printer to do the work for you. If you're planning to burn the discs from your own pc and print the packaging from your own printer ... 1- you're going to go through ink cartidges like there's no tomorrow if the discs prove even mildly popular (color ink cartidges just don't last that long for good quality printing) ... 2 - the cd/dvd burner in any computer isn't really meant to handle a heavy workload of making 50 discs every month (again assuming that the discs prove popular and that you're going to make 5-10 copies of up to 10 themed discs). It would certainly be more appealing to have the discs shipped inside cases and not paper sleeves, but again, that increases the upfront cost as you would need to purchase cases in bulk to reduce the cost per case.

Quote
(b) heighten awareness of GA-UK through mentions on both the discs and the eBay listings themselves

I just want to say that I've seen more people who come here say they found this site through doing searches or looking for a specific character/title than I have seen them state that they bought a cd off eBay first. I think "spreading the word" through blogs, websites, Yahoo Groups or whatever works is just as effective as selling a disc, if not more so, since people don't have to pay anything to get here (we're just a click away). I'ld also like to add that people who go to eBay are looking to buy something, not looking for ways to get stuff for free. Focusing on sites that "freeloaders" (for a total lack of a better way to put it and not meaning any offense to anyone because I'm one too) often visit in an effort to raise awareness of this site would make a better "preemptive strike" than trying to sell discs on eBay.

And while there are a lot of cds and dvds available on ebay, sales of those discs aren't all that great. Taking a closer look at the actual sales, it's a very very very small number of people who are buying those discs. Why it's important to let someone know that what they're paying for can be found right here, by selling our own discs on eBay that includes scans from this very site, don't we then become guilty of doing the same thing? Can we really justify selling discs by saying "we're raising awareness" or by using the money to fund the site? Would we rather have part of a $10 sale go to covering the costs of creating and shipping a disc that's sold on eBay, or would rather have someone new come here and donate $10 to help keep the site running or other good causes that benefit that site as a whole?

We're also making some assumptions about the buyers of these discs. We're assuming that they want to download files over the internet. They might not want to take the time to do that, especially if they have dial-up connections. We're also assuming that the buyers are buying these discs for themselves and not as gifts for family members who like comics. We're assuming that, if we were to sell our own discs on eBay, that these buyers won't mind learning that they just paid for something they could have gotten for free. Imagine paying for a movie or concert ticket and then when you get there you learn that the event was 'Free Admission". How mad would you be upon learning that?
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: John C on January 14, 2009, 10:21:53 PM: I'm mentioning this as much as a note to myself (for further investigation) as I am to anybody who might be interested in pursuing this...

I mentioned before how I would probably handle this. Crawl the main site and keep an up-to-date list of the available books. Create a simple web-based interface that allows people to fill up a disc (maybe telling them how much space remains), and when they click "Go," download the files and put them onto an ISO image of the DVD. At that point, a manual laborer can download the images over the weekend, burn the discs, and ship them out.

Or...

I'd need to investigate it further, but there ARE CD/DVD print-on-demand services. CreateSpace and Delta-L both apparently have decent reputations and prices. Now, I don't know how easy it would be to work with their systems, but it should be possible to automatically take the ISO image, push it to their servers with the cover image, and order a copy on behalf of the user.

If that last part (integration with the on-demand service) is doable, that means that it would cost a few extra bucks per disc, but everybody would get exactly the files they wanted and the solution would be end-to-end without anybody having to rush around and waste ink or toner.

This could also be streamlined, if this sounds too complicated. Want to do this right now without programming? Create a set of standard DVD images (an MLJ collection, for example), upload them, and put up the web page for orders. Ta-da.

I actually kind of want to try this out for myself. I suspect that they're using a DVD press, which should mean that their discs will last longer than those I've burned for myself.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: LOHAD on January 14, 2009, 10:53:58 PM: Quote from: bchat on January 14, 2009, 07:39:23 PM
Would we rather have part of a $10 sale go to covering the costs of creating and shipping a disc that's sold on eBay, or would rather have someone new come here and donate $10 to help keep the site running or other good causes that benefit that site as a whole?

I don't think it's a zero-sum either/or situation. Sure, having someone come here and donate is preferred, but discs will be on eBay, whether GA-UK puts them there or not. So to me the question becomes: How would claiming a piece of the eBay action hurt GA-UK in any way? I don't see any downside, but I do see the potential upside of incremental increases in awareness and income. I agree: It's not a huge upside, but every little bit helps, imho -- one more good cause to benefit the site as a whole.

jcolag: Great point re: CreateSpace -- I've never used them, but my understanding is they're pretty good. There are a ton of similar service out there. CafePress lets you do CDs; limiting, since it's not DVD, but CafePress has good reach ... which begs another Q: Since these are public domain books, what restrictions, if any, are there on doing merchandise? A calendar of GA covers would be pretty nice. Mugs and shirts; duh. CafePress lets you do books -- think of the possibilities there! (I'd love a book that's a gallery of my favorite GA covers; CafePress allows only b&w interior; someone's gotta be doing on-demand color printing) Maybe some of this has been explored previously; sorry if I'm covering well-worn ground.

By the way, my apologies to anyone who reads my posts in this thread and feels I'm coming off as too strident. That's not my intention at all. If anything, it's enthusiasm you're seeing. I posted over in the "Introduce Yourself" area how I got here (a mix of eBay for the awareness of digital comics and Googling for specific GA titles), and once here I saw what was going on and donated to the site. (Being involved in other similar sites, I know what real support can mean.) I've volunteered my scanning services to JVJ (and donated to his postage fund, too) and am happy to help the site in any way possible.

Excelsior! (Seltzer water)

(...and a brass figligee with bronze oak leaf palm to anyone who recognizes that salutation)
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on January 14, 2009, 11:18:22 PM: My experience is that when a lot of work is needed and any amount of money is involved, things get complicated. I'm pleasantly surprised that the JVJ postage fund is functioning quite nicely (thanks everybody), but I'm an audience of ONE and you can trust me. Selling discs, you're faced with customer service and folks who might not be so trustworthy, and all the pitfalls of an on-line business. I believe, no matter how altruistic and worthwhile the effort might be, there will be unforeseen drawbacks and hazards and, quite quickly, it will stop being fun for SOMEBODY.

I put my money where my mouth is and put up TWO links to GAC-UK on my site. Put the word illustrators into Google and click on the first "non-sponsored" link and almost the first thing you're going to see is a link to GAC. I've also put one on my hotlinks page:
http://www.bpib.com/hotlink.htm
It's about six or seven links down, but I hope it will bring some awareness to the site.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: DOC on January 15, 2009, 05:42:56 PM: That's great Jim, I'm gonna put a link om my IF, FaceBook and MySpace. I like the ida of a calenadr if this actually goes through would like to help. Like I said I bought the CD's on eBay b4 I found this site but am giving them to a friend who has no Internet access.
So how do I contribute to the JVJ postage fund??
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: John C on January 15, 2009, 07:31:04 PM: Quote from: LOHAD on January 14, 2009, 10:53:58 PM

jcolag: Great point re: CreateSpace -- I've never used them, but my understanding is they're pretty good. There are a ton of similar service out there. CafePress lets you do CDs; limiting, since it's not DVD, but CafePress has good reach ... which begs another Q: Since these are public domain books, what restrictions, if any, are there on doing merchandise? A calendar of GA covers would be pretty nice. Mugs and shirts; duh. CafePress lets you do books -- think of the possibilities there! (I'd love a book that's a gallery of my favorite GA covers; CafePress allows only b&w interior; someone's gotta be doing on-demand color printing) Maybe some of this has been explored previously; sorry if I'm covering well-worn ground.

My feeling on CafePress is that they take too big a cut. If someone wants to set it up and donate the revenue to the site, I don't have any objection (it's public domain material) and will certainly help out wherever I can, but it seems like (and I'm making up the numbers, here, rather than actually doing the research, so take with a grain of salt) a fifteen dollar calendar where two or three bucks goes to Serj seems like it's funding the wrong service.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: Geo (R.I.P.) on January 16, 2009, 01:38:18 AM: Quote from: DOC on January 15, 2009, 05:42:56 PM

That's great Jim, I'm gonna put a link om my IF, FaceBook and MySpace. I like the ida of a calenadr if this actually goes through would like to help. Like I said I bought the CD's on eBay b4 I found this site but am giving them to a friend who has no Internet access.
So how do I contribute to the JVJ postage fund??

Here you go Doc on it: JVJ Postage Fund link (http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1034.0.html)

Geo
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: DOC on January 17, 2009, 06:21:46 PM: Thanks GEO, will contribute tonight!
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: alex2002 on February 01, 2009, 12:57:40 AM: I thought I read a topic on hear about mlj comics and how some guy was claiming the scans on here were his and not public domain. Maybe I didnt look hard enough but what I can remember is how vehement everyone was about the public domain issue and citing bridgeman vs corel etc.

Publis domain is public domain and the end meaning of public domain is that anyone can use for any purpose. So what if someone is selling these on ebay. If GAC is collecting "donations" then monies are still being involved even though it is not mandated.

I have read about adding watermarks etc and someone thinking that would make a copyright but that also is not true. Substantial creativity must be made to the original in order to qualify for a new copyright. This is per the US Copyright Office. Just adding some invisible watermark would not be substantial enough of a copyright and the only perosn who can take someone to court and try to claim must be the copyright holder. What would happen is a reverse claim of copy-fraud.

I concur with previous posters here that if you upload your scans then you are basically giving it away free for all to use for whatever purpose amd that is just the way it should be. You cnat object on one hand and then want it your way in the other. That is not right and goes against the idea of public domain.

I have also downloaded many public domain comics off usenet and then I see them here also.

I bought one the disks from that seller and compared it with my brother who downloads from here who lives in Germany. I told him I bought some digital comics off ebay and he directed me here. I sent him a copy of the disk I bought and he tells me there is a big difference. They are redone, redigitized and in fact all worked and looked great according to him. My brother complained that file names and even the extensions (cbr, cbz) are not correct on many of the files here as well as vast differences in resolutions and sizes of pics. He said many do not even work after downloading. Who knows, It may be his internet connection.

Another thing to look at is Old Movies, Old Radio Shows, etc. Sony, Paramount, Time-Life, etc. all take public domain stuff and turn it into movies and such. Look at archive.org or the prelinger archives even google books. Many people dont want to spend time downloading or searching, etc. Dont forget the fear factor about "downloading" as some people just dont want to do it because of this.

People may not "like" or "think" this person is doing something wrong but they are not. We should all be defending this persons right because if we dont then some of the comics like the MLJ comics would just disappear from this site and no one would be able to enjoy. You cant have it both ways.

Any scanner uploading to here should be made aware (not that they should'nt know already) is that basically anyone can download and use for whatever purpose they want including commercial purposes. If they don't want that then hey don't upload. As soon as you do you give up all rights (not that any exist for copyright purposes anyway).

It also looks like that seller only sells USA anyway so it should not be too much of drag on the website anyway. Actually it may decrease the bandwidth from the US which would save the site owners some money. Look on the bright side.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: alex2002 on February 01, 2009, 01:03:49 AM: Am sorry I read about GM watermarked scans problem http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,189.0.html
and read about an issue with MLJ in that discussion.

Pretty much sums up about someone whose scans were put on here and was upset about it and had a watermark. I dont know which comics they were so I dont know if those are still on the site but would assume they are as all said that just adding his watermark did not create a new copyright and that is confirmed with the Copyright Office.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: rez on February 02, 2009, 07:01:08 PM: To all,
I agree that...
sometimes silence is golden.
Title: Re: Scans on eBay
Post by: JVJ on February 02, 2009, 08:37:22 PM: Me, too.
Just let things ride and the most efficient and popular approach will survive. It's called Capitalism and perhaps both outlets will prove viable. In the long run, we're talking about "mouse nuts" (as one of my bosses at HP used to say). The money involved isn't enough to warrant the effort and this site will only get stronger and more popular as time goes by. Let's keep our focus on building the site and making it the best we can. Any diversion from those efforts hurts us more than it affects anyone else.

Peace, Jim (|:{>