[LOHAD]

Two cents from this n00b: I agree with JVJ and bchat 100 percent in principle. In reality, people arrive here from all different directions. One of those directions is Google searching, another is a link from any of our blogs or sites, another is discovery via eBay scans, and so on and so on and so it goes. One person can be waited out to discover GA-UK, but the Web population as a whole is a big ol' honkin' stinkin' mess and the selling of free scans will continue, no matter how many links and stories are posted by all of us here. So why not pull the rug out from under the free-scan sellers who are making profit for themselves and sell "GA-UK approved" scan discs that (a) give the buyer more value (better packaging, some real information), (b) heighten awareness of GA-UK through mentions on both the discs and the eBay listings themselves, and (c) generate a few bucks to help keep GA-UK running -- and, ideally, expanding via the purchase of new books to scan?

[bchat]

sell "GA-UK approved" scan discs that (a) give the buyer more value (better packaging, some real information),

Better packaging equals increased costs.  I know it's easy to look at the cost of making one disc and say "it wouldn't cost that much to make one disc or ten", but you would need to cover "bulk costs" upfront to get the ball rolling.  You're also talking about the cost of paper and ink to print labels and create packaging or paying a printer to do the work for you.  If you're planning to burn the discs from your own pc and print the packaging from your own printer ... 1- you're going to go through ink cartidges like there's no tomorrow if the discs prove even mildly popular (color ink cartidges just don't last that long for good quality printing) ... 2 - the cd/dvd burner in any computer isn't really meant to handle a heavy workload of making 50 discs every month (again assuming that the discs prove popular and that you're going to make 5-10 copies of up to 10 themed discs).  It would certainly be more appealing to have the discs shipped inside cases and not paper sleeves, but again, that increases the upfront cost as you would need to purchase cases in bulk to reduce the cost per case.

(b) heighten awareness of GA-UK through mentions on both the discs and the eBay listings themselves

I just want to say that I've seen more people who come here say they found this site through doing searches or looking for a specific character/title than I have seen them state that they bought a cd off eBay first.  I think "spreading the word" through blogs, websites, Yahoo Groups or whatever works is just as effective as selling a disc, if not more so, since people don't have to pay anything to get here (we're just a click away).  I'ld also like to add that people who go to eBay are looking to buy something, not looking for ways to get stuff for free.  Focusing on sites that "freeloaders" (for a total lack of a better way to put it and not meaning any offense to anyone because I'm one too) often visit in an effort to raise awareness of this site would make a better "preemptive strike" than trying to sell discs on eBay.

And while there are a lot of cds and dvds available on ebay, sales of those discs aren't all that great.  Taking a closer look at the actual sales, it's a very very very small number of people who are buying those discs.  Why it's important to let someone know that what they're paying for can be found right here, by selling our own discs on eBay that includes scans from this very site, don't we then become guilty of doing the same thing?  Can we really justify selling discs by saying "we're raising awareness" or by using the money to fund the site?  Would we rather have part of a $10 sale go to covering the costs of creating and shipping a disc that's sold on eBay, or would rather have someone new come here and donate $10 to help keep the site running or other good causes that benefit that site as a whole?

We're also making some assumptions about the buyers of these discs.  We're assuming that they want to download files over the internet.  They might not want to take the time to do that, especially if they have dial-up connections.  We're also assuming that the buyers are buying these discs for themselves and not as gifts for family members who like comics.  We're assuming that, if we were to sell our own discs on eBay, that these buyers won't mind learning that they just paid for something they could have gotten for free.  Imagine paying for a movie or concert ticket and then when you get there you learn that the event was 'Free Admission".  How mad would you be upon learning that?

[John C]

I'm mentioning this as much as a note to myself (for further investigation) as I am to anybody who might be interested in pursuing this...

I mentioned before how I would probably handle this.  Crawl the main site and keep an up-to-date list of the available books.  Create a simple web-based interface that allows people to fill up a disc (maybe telling them how much space remains), and when they click "Go," download the files and put them onto an ISO image of the DVD.  At that point, a manual laborer can download the images over the weekend, burn the discs, and ship them out.

Or...

I'd need to investigate it further, but there ARE CD/DVD print-on-demand services.  CreateSpace and Delta-L both apparently have decent reputations and prices.  Now, I don't know how easy it would be to work with their systems, but it should be possible to automatically take the ISO image, push it to their servers with the cover image, and order a copy on behalf of the user.

If that last part (integration with the on-demand service) is doable, that means that it would cost a few extra bucks per disc, but everybody would get exactly the files they wanted and the solution would be end-to-end without anybody having to rush around and waste ink or toner.

This could also be streamlined, if this sounds too complicated.  Want to do this right now without programming?  Create a set of standard DVD images (an MLJ collection, for example), upload them, and put up the web page for orders.  Ta-da.

I actually kind of want to try this out for myself.  I suspect that they're using a DVD press, which should mean that their discs will last longer than those I've burned for myself.

[LOHAD]

Would we rather have part of a $10 sale go to covering the costs of creating and shipping a disc that's sold on eBay, or would rather have someone new come here and donate $10 to help keep the site running or other good causes that benefit that site as a whole?

I don't think it's a zero-sum either/or situation. Sure, having someone come here and donate is preferred, but discs will be on eBay, whether GA-UK puts them there or not. So to me the question becomes: How would claiming a piece of the eBay action hurt GA-UK in any way? I don't see any downside, but I do see the potential upside of incremental increases in awareness and income. I agree: It's not a huge upside, but every little bit helps, imho -- one more good cause to benefit the site as a whole.

jcolag: Great point re: CreateSpace -- I've never used them, but my understanding is they're pretty good. There are a ton of similar service out there. CafePress lets you do CDs; limiting, since it's not DVD, but CafePress has good reach ... which begs another Q: Since these are public domain books, what restrictions, if any, are there on doing merchandise? A calendar of GA covers would be pretty nice. Mugs and shirts; duh. CafePress lets you do books -- think of the possibilities there! (I'd love a book that's a gallery of my favorite GA covers; CafePress allows only b&w interior; someone's gotta be doing on-demand color printing) Maybe some of this has been explored previously; sorry if I'm covering well-worn ground.

By the way, my apologies to anyone who reads my posts in this thread and feels I'm coming off as too strident. That's not my intention at all. If anything, it's enthusiasm you're seeing. I posted over in the "Introduce Yourself" area how I got here (a mix of eBay for the awareness of digital comics and Googling for specific GA titles), and once here I saw what was going on and donated to the site. (Being involved in other similar sites, I know what real support can mean.) I've volunteered my scanning services to JVJ (and donated to his postage fund, too) and am happy to help the site in any way possible.

Excelsior! (Seltzer water)

(...and a brass figligee with bronze oak leaf palm to anyone who recognizes that salutation)

[JVJ]

My experience is that when a lot of work is needed and any amount of money is involved, things get complicated. I'm pleasantly surprised that the JVJ postage fund is functioning quite nicely (thanks everybody), but I'm an audience of ONE and you can trust me. Selling discs, you're faced with customer service and folks who might not be so trustworthy, and all the pitfalls of an on-line business. I believe, no matter how altruistic and worthwhile the effort might be, there will be unforeseen drawbacks and hazards and, quite quickly, it will stop being fun for SOMEBODY.

I put my money where my mouth is and put up TWO links to GAC-UK on my site. Put the word illustrators into Google and click on the first "non-sponsored" link and almost the first thing you're going to see is a link to GAC. I've also put one on my hotlinks page:
http://www.bpib.com/hotlink.htm
It's about six or seven links down, but I hope it will bring some awareness to the site.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[DOC]

That's great Jim, I'm gonna put a link om my IF, FaceBook and MySpace. I like the ida of a calenadr if this actually goes through would like to help. Like I said I bought the CD's on eBay b4 I found this site but am giving them to a friend who has no Internet access.
So how do I contribute to the JVJ postage fund??

[John C]

jcolag: Great point re: CreateSpace -- I've never used them, but my understanding is they're pretty good. There are a ton of similar service out there. CafePress lets you do CDs; limiting, since it's not DVD, but CafePress has good reach ... which begs another Q: Since these are public domain books, what restrictions, if any, are there on doing merchandise? A calendar of GA covers would be pretty nice. Mugs and shirts; duh. CafePress lets you do books -- think of the possibilities there! (I'd love a book that's a gallery of my favorite GA covers; CafePress allows only b&w interior; someone's gotta be doing on-demand color printing) Maybe some of this has been explored previously; sorry if I'm covering well-worn ground.

My feeling on CafePress is that they take too big a cut.  If someone wants to set it up and donate the revenue to the site, I don't have any objection (it's public domain material) and will certainly help out wherever I can, but it seems like (and I'm making up the numbers, here, rather than actually doing the research, so take with a grain of salt) a fifteen dollar calendar where two or three bucks goes to Serj seems like it's funding the wrong service.

[Geo (R.I.P.)]

That's great Jim, I'm gonna put a link om my IF, FaceBook and MySpace. I like the ida of a calenadr if this actually goes through would like to help. Like I said I bought the CD's on eBay b4 I found this site but am giving them to a friend who has no Internet access.
So how do I contribute to the JVJ postage fund??

Here you go Doc on it: JVJ Postage Fund link

Geo

[DOC]

Thanks GEO, will contribute tonight!

[alex2002]

I thought I read a topic on hear about mlj comics and how some guy was claiming the scans on here were his and not public domain. Maybe I didnt look hard enough but what I can remember is how vehement everyone was about the public domain issue and citing bridgeman vs corel etc.

Publis domain is public domain and the end meaning of public domain is that anyone can use for any purpose. So what if someone is selling these on ebay. If GAC is collecting "donations" then monies are still being involved even though it is not mandated.

I have read about adding watermarks etc and someone thinking that would make a copyright but that also is not true. Substantial creativity must be made to the original in order to qualify for a new copyright. This is per the US Copyright Office. Just adding some invisible watermark would not be substantial enough of a copyright and the only perosn who can take someone to court and try to claim must be the copyright holder. What would happen is a reverse claim of copy-fraud.

I concur with previous posters here that if you upload your scans then you are basically giving it away free for all to use for whatever purpose amd that is just the way it should be. You cnat object on one hand and then want it your way in the other. That is not right and goes against the idea of public domain.

I have also downloaded many public domain comics off usenet and then I see them here also.

I bought one the disks from that seller and compared it with my brother who downloads from here who lives in Germany. I told him I bought some digital comics off ebay and he directed me here. I sent him a copy of the disk I bought and he tells me there is a big difference. They are redone, redigitized and in fact all worked and looked great according to him. My brother complained that file names and even the extensions (cbr, cbz) are not correct on many of the files here as well as vast differences in resolutions and sizes of pics. He said many do not even work after downloading. Who knows, It may be his internet connection. 

Another thing to look at is Old Movies, Old Radio Shows, etc. Sony, Paramount, Time-Life, etc. all take public domain stuff and turn it into movies and such. Look at archive.org or the prelinger archives even google books. Many people dont want to spend time downloading or searching, etc. Dont forget the fear factor about "downloading" as some people just dont want to do it because of this.

People may not "like" or "think" this person is doing something wrong but they are not. We should all be defending this persons right because if we dont then some of the comics like the MLJ comics would just disappear from this site and no one would be able to enjoy. You cant have it both ways.

Any scanner uploading to here should be made aware (not that they should'nt know already) is that basically anyone can download and use for whatever purpose they want including commercial purposes. If they don't want that then hey don't upload. As soon as you do you give up all rights (not that any exist for copyright purposes anyway).

It also looks like that seller only sells USA anyway so it should not be too much of drag on the website anyway. Actually it may decrease the bandwidth from the US which would save the site owners some money. Look on the bright side.

[alex2002]

Am sorry I read about GM watermarked scans problem http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,189.0.html
and read about an issue with MLJ in that discussion.

Pretty much sums up about someone whose scans were put on here and was upset about it and had a watermark. I dont know which comics they were so I dont know if those are still on the site but would assume they are as all said that just adding his watermark did not create a new copyright and that is confirmed with the Copyright Office.

[rez]

To all,
I agree that... sometimes silence is golden.

[JVJ]

Me, too.
Just let things ride and the most efficient and popular approach will survive. It's called Capitalism and perhaps both outlets will prove viable. In the long run, we're talking about "mouse nuts" (as one of my bosses at HP used to say). The money involved isn't enough to warrant the effort and this site will only get stronger and more popular as time goes by. Let's keep our focus on building the site and making it the best we can. Any diversion from those efforts hurts us more than it affects anyone else.

Peace, Jim (|:{>