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Scans on eBay

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topic icon Author Topic: Scans on eBay  (Read 31781 times)

Yoc

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2008, 04:44:30 AM »

Well, here's ANOTHER example of someone using scans found for free on GAC to make a buck on eBay.
This time it's 'CROYDEN GOLDEN AGE COMICS COLLECTION 18 ISSUES ON CD!'

http://tinyurl.com/9lv3p7

You gotta know where these all came from!  *sigh*

-Yoc
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boox909

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2008, 05:41:40 AM »


Well, here's ANOTHER example of someone using scans found for free on GAC to make a buck on eBay.
This time it's 'CROYDEN GOLDEN AGE COMICS COLLECTION 18 ISSUES ON CD!'

http://tinyurl.com/9lv3p7

You gotta know where these all came from!  *sigh*

-Yoc


Yoc,

I think this can be nipped in the bud buy someone setting up an ebay account that offers to auction a disc of one or two scans from GA-UK -- only the auction runs for as long as ebay allows and GA-UK is promoted with something along the lines of "Win this disc in this auction or get the comics for free from GoldenAgeComics.co.uk!!!"

Just my two pence.

B.
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Yoc

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2008, 07:46:54 AM »

Not being an eBay user that's over my head B.
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John C

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2008, 04:09:12 PM »

Before I say anything else, I should point out that I still see nothing specifically wrong with what's going on here.  The books and (mostly) the scans are in the public domain.  Part of being in the public domain is that you can use the material commercially.  That's exactly how it's supposed to work.

Mind you, I object to the fellow's business model.  It's not sustainable to only make freely-available digital copies at a price, for obvious reasons, boox pointing out the most effective:  There's no defense against competition.  However, it's no more objectionable than if I publish the works of Shakespeare.

That said, you (or individual scanners) could always add a page to the uploaded comics directing customers here with a "these and other comics are available for free" blurb.
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JVJ

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2008, 04:29:57 PM »


Before I say anything else, I should point out that I still see nothing specifically wrong with what's going on here.  The books and (mostly) the scans are in the public domain.  Part of being in the public domain is that you can use the material commercially.  That's exactly how it's supposed to work.


Now, I'm not a lawyer (though I tend to play one with my twin nephews all too often), but I believe that you CAN copyright your scans of PD material - just like a photographer can copyright his/her photos of art pieces. There IS an 'art' in scanning and cleaning up that should be protected under the copyright laws. Just because your source material is PD, just means that ANYONE is allowed to scan it. But once YOU'VE scanned it, YOUR scan is your "interpretation" and a new work. Your scan has ZERO impact on the PD-ness of the original, nor its availability to others, but I believe the law would view it as "yours" and that anyone copying and selling YOUR scans would be in violation of YOUR copyright.

It's possible to insert a copyright watermark into a file that is invisible to the viewer but discernible by Photoshop. That's how you prove that a scan is yours, not a clever near duplication by another gifted scanner. Another way to prove it is to put the two scans into one PS file and use the "Difference" blending mode. If the results are pure black, it's your scan.

I'm completely ambivalent about the eBay seller because I agree with jcolag that it's not sustainable. When your business model depends on the ignorance of the consumer, it's not long for this world. But, then again, there might be a market among dial-up users for whom getting the scans on a CD is an advantage for which they will happily pay.

I like the idea of putting a page into the upload that directs readers to the GAC site. Good idea, jcolag.

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bchat

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2008, 04:48:12 PM »

Quote
I think this can be nipped in the bud buy someone setting up an ebay account that offers to auction a disc of one or two scans from GA-UK -- only the auction runs for as long as ebay allows and GA-UK is promoted with something along the lines of "Win this disc in this auction or get the comics for free from GoldenAgeComics.co.uk!!!"


The best approach to take in order to have a "never-ending" listing is to have someone with an eBay Store handle it.  Store Listings last "until cancelled" and only cost pennies a month to maintain ... beyond the cost of keeping the store open, that is.

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I like the idea of putting a page into the upload that directs readers to the GAC site. Good idea, jcolag.


Except that the page could be easily removed from the files if the seller finds out.  A better, but infinitely more time-consuming idea is to put a blurb ["go to goldenagecomics.co.uk to get thousands of books for free"] in the "gutters" of every page, somewhere in the middle so that it would take some effort for the seller to remove them all.
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Yoc

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2008, 05:53:08 PM »

I personally Hate the idea of watermarks b.
'GM' scans are ruined by them.  To work they almost have to be inside the artwork.  And if you make them less obtrusive they are easy to crop.
Finally I don't like the idea of use 'marking our territory' on scans that have been donated by scanners or sometime uploaded by a third party and the original scanner has no idea they are on our site let alone with our url all over them.

It's a no win situation.  :(
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John C

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2008, 06:10:49 PM »

Mind you, this is just an educated guess, but I doubt a tag page would be removed by anybody in this line of business.

As someone (Eric or Jon, I believe) pointed out, the collections this guy sells are often incomplete, even when the last issue of a run is known to be released soon.  That tells me that the business is a minimum effort production.  Download a chunk of the site in an afternoon, run the listing, and burn the DVD.  Editing the files to make them look professional would multiply the effort without increasing the profit.

As for the copyright on a scan, Bridgeman lost their lawsuit against Corel on that very premise.  While (and I've made this argument elsewhere) there's a better case to be made for the heavily-restored books where the editor fixes things like off-register colors because the scan doesn't resemble the book as published, reproduction and restoration themselves are specifically not recognized as creative acts, at least based on this precedent.

I can never link to Wikipedia with a straight face, but if you look up the Bridgeman Art Library (itself a nifty company), you'll find the gory details.  The upshot is that the courts found that Corel had every right to scan their slides for use as clip art.
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OtherEric

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2008, 06:37:59 PM »

Well, as I've said before I do not consider the editing I do on my scans to be transformative enough to constitute a new work.  And even if it was I _generally_ wouldn't want to limit what others could do with the material.  I'm not thrilled with somebody selling my stuff without changes- which is why I started this thread to gripe- but there are other uses people can put the scans to, such as posting stories on blogs, which I'm completely cool with.  (I only mention the stories on blogs because I've seen at least a few stories I've scanned show up there; credit would be nice but it's sure not needed.)  Which is at least part of the reason I don't "sign" my scans at all unless I feel the need to share credit with somebody else, be it Jim for providing the book or an editor for their work.

I believe there is a very legitimate case to be made for "Is this transformative enough to be an original work."  But I don't want my scans to be the test case, I want my scans to be available to the Public Domain.  Which is why, in my speculation on how to go after the eBay seller on the Animals if we did, I was never looking at going after that disc.  I may not like it but I admit his right to do it and, honestly, want him to have the right.  So if I was to try and stop him (and just complaining was enough for me, I'm feeling much better about it now) I would have reported him on his non-PD discs, not the ones from here.
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JVJ

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2008, 06:39:13 PM »


I personally Hate the idea of watermarks b.
'GM' scans are ruined by them.  To work they almost have to be inside the artwork.  And if you make them less obtrusive they are easy to crop.


Watermarks can be undetectable by the eye, Yoc, when applied by certain software programs. One comes bundled with Photoshop. It's called Digimarc and you can't see the mark, but Photoshop and a Digimarc reader can. The scan-lifters wouldn't even know they were there, but you could prove they were yours - if you wanted to. They even remain when a scan is printed and REscanned.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

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Yoc

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2008, 07:14:05 PM »

Right, saw that option in PS, never used it.
BUT then the problem because someone (an army would be needed) has to download every scan on the site, add the watermarks, and save.  Then upload them again.

Volunteers anyone?     ......

Hey, where did everyone go??

:)
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JVJ

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2008, 08:40:48 PM »


Right, saw that option in PS, never used it.
BUT then the problem because someone (an army would be needed) has to download every scan on the site, add the watermarks, and save.  Then upload them again.

Volunteers anyone?     ......

Hey, where did everyone go??

:)


All the smart people have left the room, yoc,
that just leaves you and me and I suspect you're on your way out the door.

Seriously though, no need to make it retroactive, but for those people who DO care about their work on their scans, the option is there for the future. Jim's Third Law: The Past is Over.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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rez

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2008, 09:22:07 PM »

Excellent point Jim.  Positively nothing wrong with marking a scan designating it's origin. The scan is still going to be available for personal consumption, blogs, or what have you.

Just the idea of someone personally profiting financially due to the volunteer efforts of others rubs me wrong and if there is a way to counter the abuse of such it should be welcomed. Think of the huge number of manhours involved in the formation and continued running of this site can be staggering.  The behind the scenes administrative efforts of the crew, scan times multiplied, and just the fact that YOC lives here. heh heh Three cheers for YOC, quite a gentleman and long distance goldenage runner he be. ;D

Now, if the said parties in question were to dedicate a percentage of the profits to the maintainance of this site then that would go a long way towards soothing the savage beast.

Personally I go out of my way to tag my scans and edits in various ways that aren't readily evident in that it appears visually obtrusive to the artwork or story as in a short blurb in the indica, the data page or various points within the storyline.

I for one am interested in the watermark feature you spoke of earlier.
Cheers
Quote


All the smart people have left the room, yoc,
that just leaves you and me and I suspect you're on your way out the door.

Seriously though, no need to make it retroactive, but for those people who DO care about their work on their scans, the option is there for the future. Jim's Third Law: The Past is Over.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 01:57:58 AM by Yoc »
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JVJ

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2008, 09:31:20 PM »


Excellent point Jim.  Positively nothing wrong with marking a scan designating it's origin. The scan is still going to be available for personal consumption, blogs, or what have you.

Just the idea of someone personally profiting financially due to the volunteer efforts of others rubs me wrong and if there is a way to counter the abuse of such it should be welcomed. Think of the huge number of manhours involved in the formation and continued running of this site can be staggering.  The behind the scenes administrative efforts of the crew, scan times multiplied, and just the fact that YOC lives here. heh heh Three cheers for YOC, quite a gentleman and long distance goldenage runner he be. ;D


Yes, hip, hip, hooray for you yoc.

Quote

Now, if the said parties in question were to dedicate a percentage of the profits to the maintainance of this site then that would go a long way towards soothing the savage beast.

Personally I go out of my way to tag my scans and edits in various ways that aren't readily evident in that it appears visually obtrusive to the artwork or story as in a short blurb in the indica, the data page or various points within the storyline.

I for one am interested in the watermark feature you spoke of earlier.
Cheers


Check out this site, rez:
https://www.digimarc.com/sw/downloadsnew.asp?PLATFORM=WinPlugIn

The watermarks work with Photoshop or PS Elements, but there is a yearly fee for the service. But as I said, you can then download ANY file off the Internet that you recognize and confirm that it IS or ISN'T yours. After that, the slope gets slipperier and the path to take less certain.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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John C

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2008, 10:02:16 PM »

Just before anybody spends money, though, I'll toss in what little I know about digital watermarks.

As I understand it, the most common approach is to take your identifying information (a code number), split it into pieces, and scatter it around the image, hiding it in noise.  I won't bother explaining the math, but you can think of it as taking specific pixels and changing the color slightly.  For example, you can play "odds or evens" with the RGB value.

As the site's FAQ explains, it's nice and fast.

However...if someone knows you watermark your images?  Well, just about any change to the image (color or size) changes the RGB values of the pixels, so it's pretty easy to foil.  Brighten the image and the red, green, and blue all increase.  Crop just a tiny bit, and the software can't find the right pixels anymore.

That's not to say it's a bad idea for some people, but for most uses, I'd be wary of spending money to protect something that you've released as free.

And as a paranoid sidenote, I notice that they don't explain their algorithm.  It scares me when security companies don't, because it usually means it's not a very mature system.  It's like a shopping mall refusing to tell you how many security guards are on duty; all things being equal, it usually means they're embarassed by the answer.
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bchat

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2008, 10:06:44 PM »

Quote
but there are other uses people can put the scans to, such as posting stories on blogs, which I'm completely cool with.  (I only mention the stories on blogs because I've seen at least a few stories I've scanned show up there; credit would be nice but it's sure not needed.)  


Of the blogs I frequent, most acknowledge when they get the scans from here and provide a link for readers to follow so they can DL the entire books, although they don't credit the individual scanners.
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rez

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2008, 10:15:36 PM »

Makes one wonder is there is presently a re-revival of goldenage awareness among the previously untouched masses or what,

that is putting the desire for veiwing into a more prominent stage of late.

I notice this site seems to be growing more in that I'm beginning to be tempted to let some of the new threads go by without reading them.(Holy wonders there, Batman)

With growth comes attention and perhaps sooner or later a position will have to be adopted regarding the profiteering of some from the sites scans. Sad but true. Don't you hate being forced to decision?

Makes one wonder if a GAC Watermark could be purchased just for use of the site and some type of program initiated to provide that watermark to the scans if requested. Big row to hoe but the ways of the world will infiltrate even a  hobbyists domain. That is if hobbyists is a word :-X

If the adminstrators were to deem this subject worthy as to be approachable in thought I would gladly supply the first $10 towards a fund to purchase the $79 membership I saw mentioned on the title page of the blurb.
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JVJ

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2008, 10:51:22 PM »

I have no doubt that any watermarking scheme can be overcome by a dedicated and determined thief. Just as no home security system is going to save you from professionals. But I don't think most people taking and selling scans are pros. I think they are opportunists. However, someone with only a dial-up connection, like Chet who recently joined, might find it very handy to get his books on CD/DVD instead of as downloads. If GAC isn't providing that service, it's kind of hard to fault someone who is. That's Capitalism for you.

Rather than fight the battle of eBay, why doesn't someone who has time and the inclination, put up an item on eBay offering ANY 30 GAC scans on a DVD for bid? Put the link in the ad so people will a: know about the site and b: figure out which 30 (or 25 or whatever fits on a DVD) books they want. You'll solve both problems. Those who WANT DVDs instead of downloads get their "product" and those who don't know about GAC find out about it. That'll make it rather hard for ANYONE to pirate the scans and market them.

Either someone will make a little money or we'll find out that there isn't much demand for GA scans on DVD and we shouldn't worry about the rip-off guys.

Just a suggestion.

Peace,  Jim (|:{>
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rez

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2008, 11:46:38 PM »

That makes sense and certainly an avenue worth of inquiry.
True, a signature and watermark would do nothing but keep out the paperboy and if one were serious enough would be sidestepping by suppying the time and effort to clean the scans of any trail markings.

However, a thought on ignoring the issue comes into play thinking perhaps some might not be interested in providing books for scans if they think they might end up in a for profit market somewhere.

I say this as having met several dealers over the years with a wide variety of books always available in large numbers.
I was considering approaching some to inquire if they might be willing to donate the use of their low quality books for the scanning purpose of supplying the scans here, being done when in the area setting up for a show via a portable setup right there at a show.

I have a feeling many dealers are true comic enthusists at heart and would like nothing better than to help comicdom's group effort if personal profit is not involved.

It might help to have a rough estimate of how many more PD pre '55 thereabouts books would be needed to finish this endeavor

in order to formulate a plan of action outside of just moving forward a little here a little there.

But I suppose I'm just rambling...
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bchat

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2008, 01:54:48 AM »

Quote
Rather than fight the battle of eBay, why doesn't someone who has time and the inclination, put up an item on eBay offering ANY 30 GAC scans on a DVD for bid? Put the link in the ad so people will a: know about the site and b: figure out which 30 (or 25 or whatever fits on a DVD) books they want. You'll solve both problems. Those who WANT DVDs instead of downloads get their "product" and those who don't know about GAC find out about it


If you're into playing by the rules, then this might not be the option everyone thinks it would be.  eBay has guidelines as to what you can and can't say on their site.  Linking to outside sites in your listing is generally frowned upon [there are exceptions] and could result in not only the listing being removed but by the seller account being suspended.  It's been a while since I last checked the rules of eBay [I know what I need to know to do what I need to do], but I can't imagine much has changed.  A way around the issue would be to have the listing include all available files with the buyer choosing 30 (or whatever) issues for one price.  You might be able to get away with saying where the files are coming from as long it doesn't end-up being a true link to the site.  IF anyone is interested in pursuing the idea further, I'ld be more than happy to help do additional research and double-check what eBay does or doesn't allow regarding listings and outside websites so nobody from here gets into any trouble.

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perhaps some might not be interested in providing books for scans if they think they might end up in a for profit market somewhere.


I might be alone in my way of thinking, but before I scanned the comics I've added, the thought of "someone might take that upload and sell it on eBay or use the stories for their blog without giving proper credit to this site" did cross my mind.  My solution?  I took some of the stories and posted them to a blog first.  Being the first person to post them anywhere online was my "payment", because I got to make use of the stories before anyone else.  What happens after I upload the books is of no concern to me now since I got what I wanted out of them (besides actually owning the books, of course).
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phabox

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2008, 09:05:15 AM »

I also try and make use of my newly scanned books on the yahoo groups before 'releasing' them to this site.

After that they are to my mind like grown up children that have left home.

I try to keep an eye on them and what they get up to but ultimately they are 'on their own' once they have left me  :(.

-Nigel
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citaltras

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2008, 12:41:42 PM »

This discussion reminds me when the GM people asked to
remove their scans form the site. Then our argument was that one cannot
copyright a scan of a copyright-free book. Now it is the opposite: we can.

You have to take into account that
many of the scans here were not made for this site.
They are just stored here. And many of them are available
and shared using P2P programs like bittorrent, DC++, and also on direct-link sites.
As I told you I myself shared in torrents many of the Fawcett, Quality, Fiction House, Better, etc.
So there is no sense to watermark those comics now, since they are available through many
other sources, not only on goldenagecomics.co.uk. And sharing is a way to avoid people selling
those scans online. But still there are people who don't know about p2p and don't have
the time or bandwidth to download teens of GB, and will want to buy the comics on DVD.
I don't see anything wrong with that.

Now if you digitally watermark the NEW releases (if it can be done),
what would be the next step?
Would you proceed to copyright the scans? How? And would you allow the people
to share those scans on P2P programs?


By the way most of the GA comics found on this site and elsewhere are on-sale on DVD
on ebay by seller scifier2. This is what he adds to his scans:

*BEWARE OF PURCHASING THESE ANYWHERE ELSE! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!*

WE HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS RESTORING, RE-MASTERING & RE-DIGITIZING OUR MATERIALS TO GIVE YOU THE BEST QUALITY AVAILABLE. YOU WILL NOT FIND THIS QUALITY ANYWHERE ELSE. WE HAVE CORRECT FORMATS & FILE NAMES AND FREE COMIC VIEWING SOFTWARE FOR PC OR MAC.






« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 01:15:01 PM by citaltras »
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narfstar

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2008, 01:30:22 PM »

Has anyone gotten any of these dvd's? Are they more than just direct rips from here? If they have improved on the scans then more power to them in selling. I think most most here object to is that we are doing all the work and doing if for free sharing and they are selling it. If they put on the DVD's that they got them form this site or others and gave a shout out to the scanners I think we would be cool with it.
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bchat

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2008, 01:49:32 PM »

Quote
By the way most of the GA comics found on this site and elsewhere are on-sale on DVD
on ebay by seller scifier2. This is what he adds to his scans:

*BEWARE OF PURCHASING THESE ANYWHERE ELSE! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!*

WE HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS RESTORING, RE-MASTERING & RE-DIGITIZING OUR MATERIALS TO GIVE YOU THE BEST QUALITY AVAILABLE. YOU WILL NOT FIND THIS QUALITY ANYWHERE ELSE. WE HAVE CORRECT FORMATS & FILE NAMES AND FREE COMIC VIEWING SOFTWARE FOR PC OR MAC.


I've seen his listings, too, and find it odd that he doesn't have any books that don't appear here on his cds/dvds.  I'm not sure if it's his stuff or someone else's, but I have seen some listings contain "before and after" pictures of the scans.  If this guy is putting some effort into the work (straightening pages, adjusting the color/brightness, etc), well, that's better than just taking the files and selling them as is.

Quote
This discussion reminds me when the GM people asked to
remove their scans form the site. Then our argument was that one cannot
copyright a scan of a copyright-free book. Now it is the opposite: we can.


I can only speak for myself, but the issue I have with what people like scifier2 may be doing is taking the files from here, not giving this sight any credit at all, and passing-off the work as their own.  I'm big on "giving credit where credit's due", and while I certainly can understand not listing every single scanner for their work, at least mention the site and let people know they can get these books for free if they want to take the time.

And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe anyone was strictly saying that people couldn't make use of the files or that this is an issue of copyrights, just that an effort should be made to acknowledge where the scans are coming from at the very least.

Quote
Would you proceed to copyright the scans? How?


Well, that's easy.  Scan the books, make noticable changes to the layout or artwork, and file for a Copyright.  In the Copyright Notice you would then be including with the file, you can make allowances for people to share the files so long as they do not use the scans to generate money, blah blah blah.  The downside is that you're changing the appearance of the books as they were originally published and creating more work for yourself while gaining some ability to control how those scans are used.
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phabox

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Re: Scans on eBay
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2008, 03:10:06 PM »

Maybe someone here should BUY some CD's from this guy.

it would give us a chance to see if there is any upgrading done to 'our' scans and may also give us a clue as to his identity.

If he's a member here and we find out WHO he is we can then act accordingly........ !

-Nigel
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