[dbrose]

I saw these items on eBay and wondered if they were allowed.  There are a few points I want to bring up, but first I'll let the seller speak for himself.  This link will take you to the items in question: http://search.stores.ebay.com/Everything-4-Less-Store_Fawcett_W0QQfciZQ2d1QQfclZ4QQfsnZEverythingQ204Q20LessQ20StoreQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsaselZ29438597QQsofpZ0

First, the items he's selling are clearly from this website.

Secondly, (from what I can tell) there has been absolutlely no restoration done.  Despite the graphics he shows, they look exactly like the versions here.  I'm sure he put some work transfering these comics to CDs, so he's not charging a lot for the CDs, but it bothers me that he's making a profit from the hard work the people here have done putting the comics up here for all to enjoy.

Third, he claims he has copyrighted these packages.  How is this possible?  He admits the stories are in public domain, but goes on to state they are copyrighted and cannot be reproduced. sold, etc.  Maybe he's refering to his method of putting them on a CD.  I don't know, but can he copyright material in the public domain?

It turns out (from the return address) that he only lives about 10 miles from me.  Please tell me if what he's doing is perfectly legit of not.  Should I say something to him (or someone else) or just let it be?

In any case, (hopefully) the link to his sales page for these disks is in this message.  So, you can all look at his listings.

[rez]

This subject has been broached before in the past and nothing ever really got levelled regarding the issue.

Legalities aside, I always felt it would be good will on his part to support the forum finacially in some way not out of necessity but people can act in many different ways.

There' is a thread on here somewhere that covers allot of various comments on the matter.
If I find it I'll come back and edit.
http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1057.0.html#msg8467

Or if someone else has the thread at ready they might link you..

Cheers

[John C]

Short version:  Once something's in the public domain, copies and copies of copies aren't new works, so any scanners who would be offended would be acting unproductively to go after the guy.  What this guy is doing is no different from the folks who download and archive a bunch of books from Project Gutenberg to sell.

Can he claim copyright on his discs?  Yes and no.  Despite what would be obvious, it doesn't appear to be illegal to fraudulently (or, to be generous, accidentally) assert a copyright on something you don't own.  However, it wouldn't stand in court, if you sue someone on the basis of that imaginary copyright.  You can sometimes get away with asserting copyright for a collection's presentation, but even that's kind of vague and not particularly reliable.

So, there's nothing illegal about what he's doing, though he might be considered a bit misleading in a few respects.  But, as I've said before, it's not really something to worry about.  Throwing free stuff on a CD without adding value is a bottom-feeding business model, and those rarely last long, on the basis that you or I could perform exactly the same task and undercut his price.

On the other hand, if you bought through eBay, there's always feedback for delivering a product of less than the stated/implied value.  (I do appreciate the fake unrestored cover, though.)

[bchat]

dbrose

Secondly, (from what I can tell) there has been absolutlely no restoration done.  Despite the graphics he shows, they look exactly like the versions here.  I'm sure he put some work transfering these comics to CDs, so he's not charging a lot for the CDs, but it bothers me that he's making a profit from the hard work the people here have done putting the comics up here for all to enjoy.

The idea that comics I scanned would end-up in some cheap CD or DVD collection bothers me a little, because I'm uploading this stuff for everyone to enjoy free-of-charge.  It's annoying to think that anyone out there is taking files from this site and charging money to people who are unaware that they can get same thing for free.

ON THE OTHER HAND, is it right that people take files that this site doesn't have from any CD or DVD they purchase from eBay or any other website, and upload them here?

Third, he claims he has copyrighted these packages.  How is this possible?  He admits the stories are in public domain, but goes on to state they are copyrighted and cannot be reproduced. sold, etc.  Maybe he's refering to his method of putting them on a CD.  I don't know, but can he copyright material in the public domain?

The Ultimate FAWCETT CAPTAIN MARVEL COMICS COLLECTION DISK SET is copyright 1993-2008 and may not be reproduced, copied or resold under any circumstances

Technically, he's right to use that statement.   If you took his disc, copied it and tried to sell it or do anything else with it, he could sue you with little trouble and more than likely win the case.  The guy isn't trying to claim a Copyright on the material itself but on the way that material is packaged and presented, much like a card company can't claim Copyright on sports statistics but they can claim Copyright on the way they present that information on a trading card.  Saying he doesn't "own" the contents of the disc (scans of the books taken from whatever source he's using) is neither here nor there.

[JVJ]

And, irrespective of any "copyright" issues, there may be some value to someone with a dial-up connection to acquire all the files for a set price without having to invest phone time in downloading all of them. If this "value" exists, he is filling a need. If it doesn't exist, it's likely he will not find much of a market and will eventually fade away.

my 2

[bchat]

As someone who has a dial-up connection, I am, unfortunately, well aware of the problems of trying to download some of the larger files from this site.  Not only is it an investment of time (about 2 hours just to download a file around 35 MB), there's also the prospect of wasting that time if I lose my connection, so there's quite a few books I pass on simply because of their size.  While it is tempting to purchase these CD/DVDs off eBay so I can have access to books like Liberty Scouts 2, even $10 seems like a lot to me for something that's available for free, especially since I would end-up getting a bunch of books I'm not interested in or already have downloaded.

That said, these eBay sellers are performing a service, which in and of itself has a value.  Would it be nice of them to cite this site IF they are taking our files?  Sure it would, but I can certainly understand why they wouldn't do that from a business stand-point.

[kozmo]

In the latest Fantagraphics collection Supermen, the copyright statement at the end is pretty clear. They say that the works themselves are in the public domain, but the particular restorations and the order/sequencing (as well as the editorial content) are copyright by Fantagraphics.  That seems to fit with what I've read about copyright and claiming rights to a particular version of the material. I believe that Dover Books does much the same thing with many of their books.

So the particular organization and collection itself on CD may be copyrightable, but the contents themselves are still public domain.

[rez]

So if GAC would make DVDs of it's contents one time, the content's of the scans could be held in copyright and thereby not be able to be used by the ebay profitteers making their own copies of the scans?

In the latest Fantagraphics collection Supermen, the copyright statement at the end is pretty clear. They say that the works themselves are in the public domain, but the particular restorations and the order/sequencing (as well as the editorial content) are copyright by Fantagraphics.  That seems to fit with what I've read about copyright and claiming rights to a particular version of the material. I believe that Dover Books does much the same thing with many of their books.

So the particular organization and collection itself on CD may be copyrightable, but the contents themselves are still public domain.

[John C]

Not really.  You can slap a copyright statement on whatever you want, but honestly, the courts are big on (I forget the exact term) demonstrable and significant creative input to be defensible.  Choosing the order ain't it (more precisely, it's copyrightable, but not significant), and you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you decided to sue over such a thing.

The best way to get something under copyright is always to actually create.

[darkmark]

Right.  In order to copyright, you'd probably have to do some demonstrable artistic addition, though this might be as little as recoloring a reprint or editing a dialogue box.  In the case of some classic plays, you can copyright a translation or a cut version of it, but you can't copyright the play itself.  AFAIK, anyway.

[phabox]

As I understand it AC Comics makes minor alterations to some of the artwork of their Golden Age reprints thereby creating copyrightable 'new works' so this could be an angle worth looking at.

-Nigel

[John C]

This is really "check with a lawyer" territory, but my instinct is that no court would support these sorts of shenanigans if it went to trial.  Again, the best way to get a copyright is to, y'know, make something.

I mean, sure, you CAN slap a copyright notice on whatever you want, but futzing around with line art, fonts, organization, and the like, is probably just going to annoy a judge.  And remember, in the United States, the losing party in a copyright case pays the winner's fees, so this isn't something you want to mess with.

I really don't get why anybody would want to release, but block the use of, public domain material.  If you want to be the one to profit from it instead, then set up shop.  Undercut the other guy, and guess what happens to his business.

[rez]

This is really "check with a lawyer" territory, but my instinct is that no court would support these sorts of shenanigans if it went to trial.  Again, the best way to get a copyright is to, y'know, make something.

I mean, sure, you CAN slap a copyright notice on whatever you want, but futzing around with line art, fonts, organization, and the like, is probably just going to annoy a judge.  And remember, in the United States, the losing party in a copyright case pays the winner's fees, so this isn't something you want to mess with.

I really don't get why anybody would want to release, but block the use of, public domain material.  If you want to be the one to profit from it instead, then set up shop.  Undercut the other guy, and guess what happens to his business.

It's the principle that the use of scans given to an organization such as GAC are used without acknowledgement of the site or any donation to the cause.
Greed profiteering from goodwill performed by the many.
I see what you are saying to the legal sort of view but this transends the legal into the moral and ethical.

[John C]

It's the principle that the use of scans given to an organization such as GAC are used without acknowledgement of the site or any donation to the cause.
Greed profiteering from goodwill performed by the many.
I see what you are saying to the legal sort of view but this transends the legal into the moral and ethical.

See, I consider your position the unethical side.  Public domain materials are and must be available for anybody to use however they like.  You're trying to assert a monopoly for this group on the material's distribution, which is exactly the opposite intent of that "goodwill" you mention.

You don't go after companies that publish based on Project Gutenberg texts, do you?  How about suing Billy Joel for releasing an entire CD of Rachmaninoff-derivative music?  The Toys adapted a Bach melody, back in the '60s.  Most of Disney's movies come from public domain stories.  "West Side Story" is modeled on "Romeo and Juliet."  I'm sure I can go on and on, if you don't stop me now.

And why should the money go here, when many scans come from outside sources?  Heck, why wouldn't the money go to the artists (or the families of the artists) who created the comics in the first place?

And most importantly, why beat them when you can join them?  As I've said (and will undoubtedly say again), the only distasteful thing about the eBayers is that they're selling a bare product at a premium, which is something that ANYBODY can do, and probably at a better price.  Undercut him or provide a more sophisticated product (see Nigel's collections, with indices and commentary for a great model for such a thing), and you get all his business, and can do with the money what you like.

[Yoc]

Bottom line is that some here who work so hard spending their cash and time to share on GAC are annoyed that eBay sellers are taking from here, selling the scans and not even saying 'thanks' or if they were smart - tossing a few dollars in the kitty to keep the site running.
But JC is right - Once a scan has been posted there's nothing to stop anyone from sharing them anyway they like. 
GAC also owes a lot to many others.  A BIG percentage of the scans hosted here were done before the site existed.  We've been lucky to attract scanners to debut their new works here but we shouldn't overlook that we are indebted to those veteran scanners from years past. Some have long since left the scene but with luck their generosity will live on in digital form forever.
Bchat also raises a good point - there must be an audience with a need or strong preference for buying on CD.  Dial-up users must drool over our files but cringe at some of the file sizes. 
I only wonder how many eBay buyers exist that just don't know GAC is here?  One would think they would do a simple Google for a title they wanted before making a bid on a disk no?
Oh well, there's nothing we can really do one way or the other except keep supporting the site and giving thanks to those scanners out there that make GAC the place to go for PD scans.

Keep on scannin',
-Yoc

[narfstar]

I rob scans from other places. I always try to give credit to the uploader from elsewhere.

[John C]

Well, don't get me wrong.  There are things to be done, but they're more work than trying to strongarm somebody who's well within his or her rights.

First, I think that offended people should sell their own CDs.  Make them better (reviews, context, commentary, more current) and cheaper.  Competition is a wonderful thing.

Second, scanners who want to direct traffic should use their scans to educate readers, by inserting an advertising page to the effect of "this scan is in the public domain, and is available for free along with thousands of others at...," though don't use a site's URL without the owner's permission, Serj, in this case.

Third, remember that you're making public domain material available; you're standing on the shoulders of the folks who created the material, and it's only right that somebody stands on your work.  Whether the goal is reputation or money is irrelevant.  And, in my eyes, that's a good thing--I'd much rather my work be remembered than my name.

Fourth, definitely remember that we don't know who any of these people are.  For all we know, they could be regular contributors, have said their thanks, and even donated.  I don't think that's the case, personally, but it's a little obnoxious to assume that everybody who donates wants to make a big deal about it.  We also don't know that this site is their source--over the course of the week, scans end up on several other websites, USENET, torrents, and presumably sources I can't even imagine.

I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I do have a few ideas for a site that'll create a CD or DVD of comics on demand.  If anybody wants to look into setting something like that up, give me a shout and I'll be glad to pitch in where I can.  If you want to take a shortcut, I recommend prebuilding the disc images (rather than letting the user do it and sending them to one of the on-demand printers.  Set up an eBay storefront, and it should run itself except for the actual donations.

[rez]

It's the principle that the use of scans given to an organization such as GAC are used without acknowledgement of the site or any donation to the cause.
Greed profiteering from goodwill performed by the many.
I see what you are saying to the legal sort of view but this transends the legal into the moral and ethical.

See, I consider your position the unethical side.  Public domain materials are and must be available for anybody to use however they like.  You're trying to assert a monopoly for this group on the material's distribution, which is exactly the opposite intent of that "goodwill" you mention.

You don't go after companies that publish based on Project Gutenberg texts, do you?  How about suing Billy Joel for releasing an entire CD of Rachmaninoff-derivative music?  The Toys adapted a Bach melody, back in the '60s.  Most of Disney's movies come from public domain stories.  "West Side Story" is modeled on "Romeo and Juliet."  I'm sure I can go on and on, if you don't stop me now.

And why should the money go here, when many scans come from outside sources?  Heck, why wouldn't the money go to the artists (or the families of the artists) who created the comics in the first place?

And most importantly, why beat them when you can join them?  As I've said (and will undoubtedly say again), the only distasteful thing about the eBayers is that they're selling a bare product at a premium, which is something that ANYBODY can do, and probably at a better price.  Undercut him or provide a more sophisticated product (see Nigel's collections, with indices and commentary for a great model for such a thing), and you get all his business, and can do with the money what you like.

Holy cow jc, didn't mean to put a burr under your saddle. I feel like the Hoards of HYDRA have been unleashed and peppered me with machinegun fire. I hardly think carrying an opinion that the manufacturer of GACs scans should at least give mention of the sites addy to be akin to monopolizing and referencing terms like 'going after' and 'suing' in comparison to my comments kind of alarms me.

It would seem that you dedicate allot of time and effort in the support of GAC and I am always appreciative of the labors from the many that keep this site afloat so I should apologize if I spoke something that might have been offensive or contentious as that was not my aim.

Cheers

[John C]

I should apologize if I spoke something that might have been offensive or contentious as that was not my aim.

No apologies necessary, because I'm not offended.  I was trying to be clear, not dismissive (and I apologize if I came off that way).  In my eyes, if it's important to defend the public domain against companies trying to extend copyrights (and I think it is), then it's also important to defend the public domain against people who think that only certain people should benefit from it.

I also think this is a conversation worth having, so I threw myself into it.  It's not a "final word," or an attempt to drown anybody out, and if anybody has a contrary opinion, they shouldn't hesitate to bicker for a while.  That's why I made sure to clarify what I meant, after all.

But I think that the take-home point really should be that anybody looking to raise money for the site would be better served by doing the work of selling rather than trying to get royalties from somebody else's work (the comics, not the CDs).

Oh--and I brought up lawsuits because that's the only use of a copyright.  The cops won't haul you in for posting the latest issue of Superman on your website, because it's not a criminal act.

[OtherEric]

When I first saw it, I was annoyed by people selling my scans on eBay.  But that's all it was, an annoyance.  My scans are Public Domain, and I make a point of NOT claiming any credit on them as a way of showing people can use the freely.  I may not like some of the uses they put them to, but since the material is PD that's their right to do so.  I vented once, got a longer thread than I expected, and just accept it as part of the nature of PD now.  Scanning the old books is important, if fans like us don't preserve the PD material nobody will.  But once we post it it's out of our hands, as it should be.

[phabox]

I've said it before and i'll say it again, I regard the comics that I scan as grown up children being let out into the great big wide world.

Once they have left me what thay get up to is out of my hands, I may not be happy about where they end up but there's nothing that can be done about it.

Its the price that we all have to pay for releasing our scans.

-Nigel

[Aussie500]

Also there is nothing to say the sellers get the comics from here or are even members here. Just as we get lots of scans from other sources, so our scans are also shared elsewhere, where they are often easier to obtain especially for dial up users. We might be rapidly becoming the most visible source for GA comics but we are not the only one. No they cannot copyright the scans unless they have altered them, you cannot copyright a copy of something, which is why most restorations used in reprint collections are often so different from the original. We aim here to get the scan as close to the original as we can, and the scans here are free to be shared where ever comic readers can get their hands on them, l personally would like as many as possible to read the old gems of the past. Some prefer buying their comics on a DVD to spending days downloading them, or downloading might not even be an option for some, just because we are not willing to provide that service is no reason why others should not.