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Hello again!

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topic icon Author Topic: Hello again!  (Read 7210 times)

Astaldo711

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Hello again!
« on: January 13, 2010, 04:08:58 PM »

Haven't been here for a while so I'm saying "Hello" again. I had to reformat my hard drive and lost all my comics. I logged on last night to start getting some and couldn't get on the site. I was distraught thinking the site had gone down until I got to work and got on. Whew!
Until The Comet becomes a pacifist, Make Mine GAC!! ;D
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Yoc

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 05:22:41 PM »

Sorry to hear about your HD failure A.
Grab your books fast, the site has been experiencing a lot of problems that are beyond our control.

-Yoc
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Astaldo711

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 06:34:46 PM »

So I noticed! As long as I know you're still around, I'll just keep trying to log in. I was afraid that the site was shut down. I'm going to get an external drive or at least a couple of flash drives to store these on.
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bchat

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 12:52:55 AM »


I had to reformat my hard drive and lost all my comics.


I feel your pain.  Several months after joining this site and spending hours through a dial-up connection (which has finally gone the way of the dinosaur in this household) downloading comics from here, my old pc's hard drive crashed & burned and I lost every comic file I had (several hundred at the time), plus a lot of other stuff I'll never recover.  I learned my lesson the hard way, so when I bought my current pc, I also grabbed an external drive which I use every week or so to back-up anything even remotely important.
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narfstar

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 01:06:23 AM »

A while back my external crashed. It did not hold my major comics collection but did loose all my Tarzan scans and some non-english and others
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John C

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 02:27:56 PM »

Not that it helps what's already happened, but in case it helps anybody in the future, for eventual hard drive problems (and we all have them), I recommend downloading and burning what they call a "Live CD" of one of the many Linux operating systems.  Basically, it's a full system installed to the CD/DVD or sometimes a USB thumbdrive, if your system can boot from it.

In theory, people supply them so you can play with the system and decide you like it enough to install it full-time, in a "the first hit's free" kind of way.  But it's also great in an emergency, because it'll recognize your hard drive withoutt needing to run off it, and most of the modern editions will recognize all your USB stuff.  In other words, before wiping out your system, you can boot from the CD and copy out your important files, which is nice.

With enough software preinstalled, you can sometimes even use it to function on the "dead" computer for the time it takes a new drive or computer to show up, though I can say from experience that, while it works, it's not at all fun.

(Also, I still want to know why nobody has advanced the state of the art for backups.  If you can't trust your hard drive, what sense does it make to back everything up onto another hard drive!?  And "upload to the cloud" is just insane, if you need it out and back within your lifetime...)
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Astaldo711

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 07:15:53 PM »

Maybe I should backup an external hard drive to another external hard drive, and another and another and another, etc etc ad infinitum....
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John C

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 07:52:14 PM »

Yep.  Exactly my point.  Once hard drives become suspect (which they always are, and may be hitting laws-of-physics problems soon), there's noplace else to go.  We used to be able to back up to tape or CD/DVD, but the drives have gotten too darn big and the prices haven't scaled like the drive prices have (for obvious reasons, mind you--it's purely linear production).

Keep in mind, of course, that I'm coming from a career where we had to work over a weekend because the super-duper-RAID setup (redundant hard drives with error-checking, and all that jazz) crapped out on us and started corrupting all the backed-up data.  So I could be slightly more paranoid than the average computer owner.  But, then, the state of things won't improve unless the paranoia spreads, right...?
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Yoc

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 08:48:53 PM »

Between 'disk rot' and HD failures... are scans safely stored at anytime?
I recall OldWayne being a victim of disk rot with several bought disks for 'GM'.
They refused to replace his disks even for a feel.
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John C

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 10:23:13 PM »

Arguably, no, there isn't.  The safest preservation of information is (ironically) back on paper.  Specifically, archival paper stored properly, but the upshot is that all the movement to pure digital is really going to come back to bite us at some point.  Heck, look how often we need to refresh our own collections, versus how long Jim has kept some of the shoddiest paper ever produced in decent shape, without the benefit of magic acid-free backing boards, mylar bags, acid-free boxes, or climate control!

The next-best option (though I'm going by second-hand information, here) would be archival DVDs, those gold disks you sometimes see in the stores.  They're obviously much more expensive per disk, and even they'll die eventually, but I'm told they last much longer than other digital options are expected to.

(After that comes old-school magnetic tape reels.  It's not especially stable, but the amount of space used to store each bit is enormous by today's standards, meaning you can usually recover the data stored there even after irradiating the media or throwing magnets at it.  You generally need an actual degaussing machine to erase those tapes.  But of course, that's extremely slow and now expensive--most of those tapes wouldn't fit much of a comic, certainly!)

Beyond that, the best thing to do is to just make sure there are always new people in the hobby.  Pass copies of the scans on to them, and hope the copies continue to propagate.  After all, each new copy resets the media clock, so to speak, and the more people have them, the more likely it is that there'll be a generation after that.

That's the reason the extended, no-renewal-required copyrights bug me so much.  There's a lot of material where the last option is the only one available, but isn't legal, because it's still under copyright by...someone who might not even exist, but regardless isn't giving them up or keeping the work in circulation.

Not to get on a soapbox to rail against The Man, but you'd be surprised how much great material Disney is sitting on...pretty much by accident.  Walt would have a cool idea for a project, and (like Hitchcock) buy up all the base copyrights and sometimes COPIES of the work, to prevent someone else from getting there first.  Great business plan, except that the project would then die out and get forgotten, leaving the material in the hands of people who don't have plans for or even know they own it.

(Actually, Hitchcock differs only in that his projects completed, here.  Try to find a copy of "To Catch a Thief" and see what I mean--the Dodge novel on which the movie is based, that is.  It frightens me slightly to think that my Nth-hand Reader's Digest anthology containing the novel's abridgement may one day be useful to presevation, just because Al bought and destroyed every copy of the novel on the market to keep from anybody spoiling the movie's ending!  Neat, but a future disaster.)
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Roygbiv666

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2010, 12:24:24 AM »




Beyond that, the best thing to do is to just make sure there are always new people in the hobby.  Pass copies of the scans on to them, and hope the copies continue to propagate.  After all, each new copy resets the media clock, so to speak, and the more people have them, the more likely it is that there'll be a generation after that.



I've never understood why someone didn't make lots of money by creating a machine to transfer stuff automatically from "Format #1" to "Format #2" in the same machine. Like sticking in a 3.5" floppy disc, pressing a button, and the machine copies the data to, say CD; but every time there's a format change. There've gotta be lots of potential money making materials that are just going to be lost, like the old nitrate-based film that those Hollywood-idiots let disappear.
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narfstar

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 12:49:56 AM »





Beyond that, the best thing to do is to just make sure there are always new people in the hobby.  Pass copies of the scans on to them, and hope the copies continue to propagate.  After all, each new copy resets the media clock, so to speak, and the more people have them, the more likely it is that there'll be a generation after that.



And the digital versions are continually being out out there somewhere. So they will be preserved
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 01:20:51 AM by Yoc »
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Yoc

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2010, 01:22:24 AM »

I've seen turntables that connect to your ipod or something to convert LPs into mp3 in the Walmart flyer.  About $90 a pop.
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Roygbiv666

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2010, 01:45:51 AM »


I've seen turntables that connect to your ipod or something to convert LPs into mp3 in the Walmart flyer.  About $90 a pop.


Yeah, but I mean on an industrial/manufacturing type scale, so it could do 1000's easily. Silly me. What are the odds that old movies could ever get a new life. On TV. Or VHS. Or DVD. Or Blu-Ray. Or ....
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bchat

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2010, 04:34:30 AM »


I've seen turntables that connect to your ipod or something to convert LPs into mp3 in the Walmart flyer.  About $90 a pop.


Yeah, but does it play 78s or 16s?  ... because if it can't, what's the point?  Anybody can hook-up their stereo to their computer and create files in whatever format they want (with the right software, of course), but how many affordable turntables were made in the last 30 years that were designed to play 78 or 16 rpm albums?
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Yoc

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2010, 04:57:29 AM »

Good points if a bit obscure these days bc.
But I believe the LP to MP3 table was for those that did NOT have a PC. 
It stressed ease of use.  Auto this and that.

I wonder if there's a market for a machine/service at the scale Roy is talking?
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bchat

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2010, 06:18:59 AM »


Good points if a bit obscure these days bc.
But I believe the LP to MP3 table was for those that did NOT have a PC. 
It stressed ease of use.  Auto this and that.

I wonder if there's a market for a machine/service at the scale Roy is talking?


Sure, 78 LPs are obscure and rare ... but isn't that the type of stuff that needs preserving the most?  I have an assortment of records (acquired while I was still selling LPs years ago after the music industry bailed on the format, because I'm really not a fan of Lps but I saw there was still a market for it at the time) that have never been transferred commercially to CDs that I know of, half of which are 78s.  It's cool to have something that was made in 1908 or 1920, but I can't play it on anything!

Not that I'm interested, but for anyone else:  Wal-Mart's $99 turntable (as it's priced on their site), states you can hook-up to a pc and transfer 78s with some software ... or at least that's the claim (it doesn't play at 78rpms, so who knows how well it actually works out).  I also didn't see anything about replacement needles.

As to "format-to-format" ... I'm sure that devices like that already exist and are being used to preserve old film, etc, but it might be that the demand for any resulting commercial production is so low that the Powers-That-Be don't feel it's worth releasing to the public.  I'ld love to get "Twice Upon a Time" on DVD, but what are the chances of that happening at a reasonable price when I'm the only person that knows what it is?
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John C

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2010, 01:29:37 PM »

The funny thing about those turntables--especially those for the PC--is that the pre-USB "secret" way to do this was to take the speaker plug (if it's a modular plug, obviously) and stick it right in the sound card's audio-in.  The audiophile might not be computer-savvy, but can't plug in a speaker!?

Regarding the "format" of the records, it's technically not that hard.  Even if the table only turns at 33rpm, you can always play at that speed, then use a tool (in any professional-ish audio program) to speed it up the MP3 or what-have-you by a factor of (78/33 = ...) 2.63.  I used to do the opposite in college when I found a "dubbing" cassette player that would play the tape at twice normal speed for recording on the other deck.

Now, the key is that this is for individuals, not industry.  Something like Roy's talking about overlooks the fact that industry only wants one transfer, then they replicate.  And they'd rather the losers--I mean "consumers"--like ourselves not do it themselves in bulk.  But if you still have them in the neighborhood, the places that used to just develop film usually have equipment to transfer most movies.


And the digital versions are continually being out out there somewhere. So they will be preserved


Don't necessarily trust that.  Or like Reagan said about something else, "trust, but verify."

Distribution is something that needs to be active (in terms of finding people to accept copies and making sure the content's available in multiple places), otherwise you're in the same situation as before, waiting for the disaster, but with a bigger computer that could fail.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 01:41:38 PM by John C »
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bchat

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2010, 02:36:05 PM »


The funny thing about those turntables--especially those for the PC--is that the pre-USB "secret" way to do this was to take the speaker plug (if it's a modular plug, obviously) and stick it right in the sound card's audio-in.  The audiophile might not be computer-savvy, but can't plug in a speaker!?

Regarding the "format" of the records, it's technically not that hard.  Even if the table only turns at 33rpm, you can always play at that speed, then use a tool (in any professional-ish audio program) to speed it up the MP3 or what-have-you by a factor of (78/33 = ...) 2.63.  I used to do the opposite in college when I found a "dubbing" cassette player that would play the tape at twice normal speed for recording on the other deck.


I'm not sure that's ever been much of a "secret".  Anyone who has used a computer to record audio or music has used the Line In/Microphone or a Stereo Input jack.  The hope that the makers of these "LP-to-MP3" turntable makers rely on is that there are enough people who never thought of using their own record player & pc to make these files.

The only useful thing I see in these new machines is the "78-to-33" software.  Trying to use software to do something it isn't designed to handle isn't going to give you great results.

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Now, the key is that this is for individuals, not industry.  Something like Roy's talking about overlooks the fact that industry only wants one transfer, then they replicate.  And they'd rather the losers--I mean "consumers"--like ourselves not do it themselves in bulk.  But if you still have them in the neighborhood, the places that used to just develop film usually have equipment to transfer most movies.


The only use I can see on an individual level for transferring film to another useful format is for "home movies", which is something the movie industry cares nothing about.  I don't have any home movies in that format, so I never cared to look into what kind of equipment is needed to do such a thing, but I can't imagine it's cheap.  If we're talking a Hollywood movie, I don't see a need to worry about it.   They're taking care of it (do you really think they'ld ever pass-up the chance to make money?) and whatever has been lost at this point in that big vault they have hidden away ... well, it's not lost because they didn't care, they simply didn't realize that it was ever a problem until somebody physically looked at the canisters.   As far as anything that has ever been shown on television (but never commercially released), then in all likelihood, someone somewhere has it on VHS, at which point it won't cost more than $50 to get the hardware & software needed (along with a computer) to make a DVD copy ... IF they think to do such a thing.  In this day and age, about the only thing that's really "lost" are the first few episodes of MST3K because nobody taped it and the original studio tapes were reused for something else.  I mean, if I can find a website that has all 8 episodes of "Otherworld" for the entire planet to watch whenever they want, then pretty much everything else I can think of is safe & taken care of somewhere.
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Roygbiv666

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2010, 03:17:54 PM »


Now, the key is that this is for individuals, not industry.  Something like Roy's talking about overlooks the fact that industry only wants one transfer, then they replicate.  And they'd rather the losers--I mean "consumers"--like ourselves not do it themselves in bulk.  But if you still have them in the neighborhood, the places that used to just develop film usually have equipment to transfer most movies.



My actual thought is more along the lines of a company with lots of old data on an obsolete, or soon to be obsolete, format of data storage and they want/need to transfer 1000's of those old 5 1/4" floppies to DVD or something. They would need to do the same thing 1000's of times.

But, regardless - it's sad about all those "lost films" because the industry was soooooooo short-sighted. Which makes it nice that DC has its, albeit expensive, Archives series. But those don't preserve the ads or, eventually, letter columns, which I find interesting as an insight into the time.
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bchat

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2010, 04:42:53 PM »


My actual thought is more along the lines of a company with lots of old data on an obsolete, or soon to be obsolete, format of data storage and they want/need to transfer 1000's of those old 5 1/4" floppies to DVD or something. They would need to do the same thing 1000's of times.


But if the data was that important, wouldn't upgrading the format the data was stored on be something they would have done as the years rolled by?  If they didn't upgrade from floppy to cd when it was clear that floppies were finished as a storage format, then I can't feel bad for them if all of sudden they realize "hey, we can't transfer this data to dvd".  It's not like there wasn't an overlap of the technology involved, so my assumption is that they were just too lazy to do it when they should have, and I have no sympathy for lazy people.

Quote
But, regardless - it's sad about all those "lost films" because the industry was soooooooo short-sighted. Which makes it nice that DC has its, albeit expensive, Archives series. But those don't preserve the ads or, eventually, letter columns, which I find interesting as an insight into the time.


I wouldn't call it being "short-sighted", they simply didn't think about it way back when.  They shot the movie, made copies, sent it to theaters and called it a day.  I doubt that any studies were done in the 1920s or 30s to determine how long the film would last in various types of storage conditions.  It would be a shame if nothing was being done NOW to preserve what's left, and with the way computers are today, I'm sure any frames that are damaged can be cleaned-up or "replaced" as needed.
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John C

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2010, 06:24:32 PM »


I'm not sure that's ever been much of a "secret".  Anyone who has used a computer to record audio or music has used the Line In/Microphone or a Stereo Input jack.  The hope that the makers of these "LP-to-MP3" turntable makers rely on is that there are enough people who never thought of using their own record player & pc to make these files.


Yeah, I was being highly sarcastic about the secrecy.  They've built an entire niche industry around people not realizing that their computer already does the digital side of the work


The only useful thing I see in these new machines is the "78-to-33" software.  Trying to use software to do something it isn't designed to handle isn't going to give you great results.


It depends, I think.  All you're doing is changing the speed, after all.  So any software that knows how to change the speed of an audio file can do the same thing.  As long as you're speeding it up, nobody'll notice the difference, though I admit there's some fidelity lost when you slow it down.

Just to confirm I'm not randomly imagining things, if I pull up the portable install (portableapps.com) of Audacity (an Open Source audio editor of some repute), I can import a random MP3...though it takes a while.  Tap, tap, tap, tap...wow, this reminds me of working on my cutting-edge 286 machine in college, except it took this long for an equivalent-sized wave file.

Ahem.  OK.  Select All.  And under the Effect menu, there's Change Speed, which--ooh!--even has rpm settings, just for the purpose.  And yeah, it sounds just like when I was aa kid fooling around with the speed setting when listening to records.  So there's that option, and it doesn't cost more than the  modular plug out of the turntable and the couple of minutes for it to read the file.


Quote
Now, the key is that this is for individuals, not industry.  Something like Roy's talking about overlooks the fact that industry only wants one transfer, then they replicate.  And they'd rather the losers--I mean "consumers"--like ourselves not do it themselves in bulk.  But if you still have them in the neighborhood, the places that used to just develop film usually have equipment to transfer most movies.


The only use I can see on an individual level for transferring film to another useful format is for "home movies", which is something the movie industry cares nothing about.  I don't have any home movies in that format, so I never cared to look into what kind of equipment is needed to do such a thing, but I can't imagine it's cheap. 


I looked into it once, not for home movies, but for things I own on VHS that I know will never make it to DVD, between problems with the rights and damaged originals--I actually spent an afternoon talking to folks at Tribune and Warner, including their restoration team, which was fun, though ultimately useless.  Actually, it's not much different than the record situation, except where everybody today has a soundcard built in, not many people have a TV card.

If you do, though, or pick up something like the cheap WinTV unit (one of my professors, sadly passed on long before his time, founded Hauppauge Computer Works, so I always feel the need to plug the product), then you run RCA cables (or even cheap coaxial) from your favorite VCR and record the video feed.

I don't have my notes in front of me, just now, from when I was thinking of doing it, but you can pretty much burn an MPEG-2 video directly to a VCD or (with a little more cleanup and work) get a decent-quality DVD with menus, subtitles, different audio tracks, and so forth.  Or just copy them to a DVD and live with it.

So VHS is definitely as doable as audio.  For something more like 8mm or 16mm film, the story's going to be more complicated, and sort of like scanning microfiche.


If we're talking a Hollywood movie, I don't see a need to worry about it.   They're taking care of it (do you really think they'ld ever pass-up the chance to make money?) and whatever has been lost at this point in that big vault they have hidden away ... well, it's not lost because they didn't care, they simply didn't realize that it was ever a problem until somebody physically looked at the canisters.   


I don't know.  Keep in mind that some studios worry about their images, so anything that could be viewed as racially insensitive (cough--Disney!) gets specifically left unreleased.

And don't forget the days when studios planned to only release old movies if they were colorized.  Is the movie preserved if it isn't the original experience?


As far as anything that has ever been shown on television (but never commercially released), then in all likelihood, someone somewhere has it on VHS, at which point it won't cost more than $50 to get the hardware & software needed (along with a computer) to make a DVD copy ... IF they think to do such a thing.  In this day and age, about the only thing that's really "lost" are the first few episodes of MST3K because nobody taped it and the original studio tapes were reused for something else.  I mean, if I can find a website that has all 8 episodes of "Otherworld" for the entire planet to watch whenever they want, then pretty much everything else I can think of is safe & taken care of somewhere.


Possibly, but the problem is that you never actually know what the situation is, there.  Somebody might have a copy, but how do you find that one person who's forgotten it's on an unlabeled cassette in a water-logged box in a storage unit?  I think about some of the things I know I have recorded somewhere, over the years, and I get chills down my spine if I so much as think about looking for any of it...

By that reasoning, every comic book ever published would also be available for scanning...somewhere.  And that may well be true, in principle, but getting access is a different story entirely, and you won't know if you're right unless you can account for everything, which...ick.
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John C

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2010, 06:41:43 PM »


But if the data was that important, wouldn't upgrading the format the data was stored on be something they would have done as the years rolled by?


It depends on what you mean by "important."  There's "we need to keep this on-hand in case anybody ever asks for it, even though nobody ever will," and there's "we use this every single day."

From the former category, I remember being at a job not long out of school, where we were thinking of rewriting our product (trouble-tracking software for phone companies) from scratch, to take advantage of technologies released since, oh, what, 1975 or so?

In a shocking turn of events for the corporate world, they put me in charge because I was the youngest.  I had the freshest look, apparently, on what could be done, and I didn't mind staying on the phone for hours at a clip with people who didn't really speak English to find out what our customers needed.

The first thing I did was ask for the original specifications and design documents.  After all, we may have been starting from scratch with code, but we're still trying to solve the same business problems.  And I was assured that they had them, because they were important things.  In fact, they were saved in a vault somewhere offsite.

8.5" disks.  In some archaic format that might have been for an early Xerox or AT&T mainframe, but nobody really remembered.  After a few days scouring the warehouse for the oldest machines available to see if they'd read the data, we gave up and started from scratch.

(Today, this would actually be easier.  Petty cash would fund a quick eBay purchase from a collector.  But online auctions still had a couple of years before they were well-known, at  this point.)


I wouldn't call it being "short-sighted", they simply didn't think about it way back when.  They shot the movie, made copies, sent it to theaters and called it a day.  I doubt that any studies were done in the 1920s or 30s to determine how long the film would last in various types of storage conditions.


Right.  In fact, the same mentality is what gives us a lot of the public domain material here.  Nobody seriously thought a movie released today would still be popular next year, and certainly nobody would want to own a copy of their own.  And to bet on that would be to cut into the profits.

So it is very much short-sighted, but there's good reason for it.  And we haven't grown out of it.  How many bloggers out there do you think make meticulous records and backups of their every post, and store it in a way that'll last fifty years?  You know there's a part of you that's saying, "not many, but who cares?" and that's exactly the right answer.

...Except in fifty years, of course, to some guy on a futuristic message board analogue complaining about the short-sightedness of those dang lazy turn-of-the-century bloggers.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 10:18:02 PM by John C »
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paulpicks1

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2010, 04:28:59 AM »

...
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Astaldo711

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Re: Hello again!
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2010, 05:38:33 AM »

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