[OtherEric]

I don't really see Walt Kelly's work in the Saku story myself, sorry.  What in particular in that one reminds you of Kelly?

I'm pretty sure the Gingerbread Man was Kelly, although he may have had a different inker.  The child on page one (especially the bottom two panels)  and the fox on page 5 of that story are the giveaways; the rest of the story is a little less obvious.  I might tentatively give the script on that one to Kelly, as well- the final lines between the gingerbread man and the fox are the sort of incongruous but amusing thing Kelly liked to stick into his adaptations.

I'm less sure about "The Elves' Dance", but that _might_ be Kelly as well.  The elves at the bottom of the first page are the most obviously Kelly-like -the middle one in particular- but they're not enough to make me certain.  None of the rest make me reject Kelly but other than a vague sense on a couple of the other faces none of them really make me want to assign it to him either.  The fact that it is music helps point to Kelly, though, assuming it's an original work.

The art on the inside covers is by Kelly; it was first used in Fairy Tale Parade 1 and while there's nothing in it that screams Kelly I'm convinced he did the rest of FTP 1 cover to cover so I won't hesitate to credit him with the panel border either.  There's certainly nothing in it that would cause me to not assign it to him.  (I'm not sure Kelly inked all the stories in FTP 1 even if I'm sure on the pencils; I can look more closely and give you my guesses if you want.)

Does anybody have a copy of Four Color 50, by the way?  It's the only 4C issue of FTP I don't have a scan of yet.

And note that I'm far from an expert on art ID's in general even if I know Kelly's work well enough to make pretty good guesses.

[OtherEric]

My guesses on what Walt Kelly did on the issues of Fairy Tale Parade I've seen.  I'm very interested in others opinions; I trust myself enough to make the first guess but not enough that I think it should be taken as gospel without somebody else backing me up:

FTP 1: Cover to Cover Kelly.  Somebody else may have inked some of the stories, Hansel and Gretel in particular.  But I'm far from sure of that; the art just doesn't look quite like the other stories but another inker is just one possible reason.

Until I note otherwise, assume all four covers are by Kelly, unless noted they reuse earlier art.

FTP 2: Front and back covers Kelly.  Jack the Giant Killer is by Kelly.  I don't THINK he did Snow White and Rose Red but whoever did was at least somewhat emulating Kelly, or possibly he did layouts or some final touches.  Neither of which are normal habits of Kelly's, as far as I know.  But I don't know that he didn't, either.  Emperor's New Clothes is by Kelly.  Tom Thumb is not.  Cinderella is Kelly.  Puss in Boots, see my comments on Snow White and Rose Red.  Sinbad, no trace of Kelly.

FTP 3:  I don't have a copy.

FTP 4: Front Cover is Kelly.  Lost Prince is by Kelly.  Traveling Musicians is Kelly, possibly with help.  There's way too much obvious Kelly in the story for it to be anybody else but some of it just looks off to me, too.  Wee Men o'the Glen, I'm not sure- what do others think?  I keep changing my mind every time I glance at it; saying somebody else inked it heavily might account for it but that's pulling a guess out of absolutely nowhere.

FTP 5:  Front Cover is Kelly.  Inside front cover is signed by Kelly but done in a woodcut style that I might not have assigned to Kelly if I hadn't seen the signature, which just shows how hard this is to do accurately!  Big Claus and Little Claus is Kelly.  Ali Baba is signed by Jon Small.  Prince Joel, perhaps- the one face is possibly but far from definitely Kelly and none of the rest of the art really lends it self to ID's.  Wise Men of Gotham is Kelly.  Tales of Rufus Redfox, I'm torn.  The fox looks very Kelly-like but the beaver doesn't.  I need to go through the Animals and see if there's a beaver in the Pogo stories for comparison; the way Kelly drew some animals (possums in particular  ) evolved a lot over time.  Inside back cover and back cover by Kelly.

FTP 6: See above Post.

FTP 7: I don't have a copy.

FTP 8: All four covers by Kelly.  Magic Night by Kelly, possibly or even probably not on his own.  The fairies and child are obvious Kelly but the adults don't remind me of his work at all.  Then again, he could have just been experimenting.

FTP 9: I don't have a copy. 

[OtherEric]

Four Color 50:  I don't have a copy.

Four Color 69:  Cover, Inside Front Cover, Back Cover all by Kelly.  Tiny Folk and the Giant by Kelly.  Golden Ball, possibly Kelly but as seems to be the rule on the text stories I'm not really sure.  The Three Wishes, I see a lot of Kelly's influence but I don't think he actually did anything on the story.

Four Color 87:  Front Cover is not Kelly, I'm not positive on the other three covers but think probably not.  Tiny Folk and the Dragon is by Kelly.

Four Color 104: Front Cover signed by Arthur E Jameson.  Inside front cover by Kelly.  The Wee Man is by Kelly.

Four Color 114: Inside Covers, possibly Kelly but I'm not quite positive.  Goblin Glen by Kelly.

Four Color 121:  Front Cover signed by Arthur E Jameson.  Oversteet's claim of no Kelly in this issue notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure he did the inside covers. 

Anyway, that's my guesses.  Now what do other people think?

[Yoc]

Hi Eric,
I've got MrJoel's scans of FC050.  I'll upload it to the FTP in my folder and see if I can add it to the site.  If not you can still get it from the FTP anyways.

-Yoc

[OtherEric]

Yay, Yoc!  We should be able to; we have at least some of the Four Color issues already.  I may create a Fairy Tale Parade folder since we're getting several issues; if I do should I move the issues from the Four Color folder over?  I think probably; since we're supposedly getting rid of the four color folder eventually.

I think I owe Aussie an apology for pushing for allowing at least some of the Dells; I never meant to open a can of worms like I did.  But some of the Dell stuff is PD and really deserves to be here.  So I'm sorry for causing our PD experts a headache even if I'm glad we have some of the books now.

[Yoc]

Hi Eric,
I'd feel better getting jcolag's or Aussie's blessing on the idea but I expect it should be Ok.
Gosh, it's a Deck the Halls with Boston Charlie around here lately eh?

[JonTheScanner]

Eric, you'll be happy to know I have the unscanned issues of Fairy Tale Parade and those are high on my to-scan pile.  All of the Four Color issues are scanned already as are the three 4C issues of Mother Goose and Nursery Rhymes, the various Xmas and Easter with Mother Goose, and the one shot (not 4C) Tiny Tots #1.  A lot of Kelly work in those.  The Brownies issues in the 4C series are also all scanned but only the first couple are by Kelly.  I'm not sure which of these are public domain, but I can upload any that are needed and wanted.

[OtherEric]

We have lots of the Kelly Brownies issues and the Mother Goose and Nursery Rhymes issues already; I'm not sure which (if any) of the Santa Claus issues are PD and we would need a ruling on those from an expert.  Same with the tiny tots, I think I've got a scan of that and it may already be here.  Getting some of the Santa issues up would be great if they're eligible; based on others the only one I suspect we _might_ have trouble with is the last Kelly issue; since it has a Pogo story that overlaps with the Pogo ongoing.  Kelly missed the Animals but may have caught that one.

And thank you again for all the Kelly scans you've been providing; as should be blatantly obvious by now I'm a huge fan. 

[John C]

I'm not sure which of these are public domain, but I can upload any that are needed and wanted.

I'll be out for the rest of the day, most likely, but if you have issue numbers (and the relevant years of publication), I can get you an answer much faster.

[JVJ]

I'm copying my earlier reply to Peter here, Eric:

FTP #6
Add: The Elves Dance is by Bill Brady
Change: The Wild Swans to Arthur E. Jameson (I MUST have been asleep)
Add: Dick Whittington is by Arthur E. Jameson
Add: Saku is most likely also by Bill Brady - it's not Kelly.

And if you want to add some other non-Kelly credits to other issues:

FTP #5:
Sleeping Beauty is Arthur E. Jameson
The Nose Tree is L. Bing (THIS is the artist who drew Green Mask in MM #10!)
and the inside covers of this issue are tributes by Kelly to an artist named Franklin Booth

FTP #7:
The Ugly Duckling is George Kerr
The Story of Lazy Jack - I don't know, perhaps Dan Noonan?
The Brave Prince - the "Bubble Artist" (signed)
The Mermaid - Arthur E. Jameson

FTP #8:
Another Voyage of Sinbad - Jameson
The Three Dwarfs - George Kerr
Jack and the Beanstalk - "Bubble Artist"
Pied Piper - Jameson

FTP #9
Saturday Mountain - Jameson
The Snow Queen - L. Bing (HEAVENS! A 35 page story!)

And in the Four Color issues that I have:

FC-FTP #50:
Cover, ifc, The Magic Garden are by Kelly
The Nightingale - Jameson
The Stolen Princess - George Kerr
Fourth Voyage of Sindbad the Sailor - This artist is our (Hames Ware and my) longest-running and deepest mystery, our greatest unsolved puzzle. We call him/her "THE Great Unknown). So much detail in a very distinctive style, it's almost impossible that the artist didn't sneak some reference or name or initials into the bric-a-brac in the background SOMEWHERE. There's a definite "AND" and a "69" on a bag on the first panel of page 3, but everything else seems to be fake Arabic script or just noodling. HELP! anyone?
The Brave Tailor - Jameson
back cover - Kelly

FC-FTP #69:
The Enchanted Head - Jameson
The Giant With Three Golden Hairs - Kerr
The Golden Ball - does not look like Kelly to me, but I can't offer a definite ID. Sorry.
The Three Wishes - THE Great Unknown

FC-FTP #87:
Covers and ics - probably Dan Noonan (according to Hames Ware)
The Broomstick Bride - ditto
The Emerald Incense Burner - THE Great Unknown
The Frog Prince - Jameson

FC-FTP #107:
Cover and back cover - Jameson
ifc - definitely Dan Noonan, not Kelly.
Tiny Esmeralda - Jameson
Kingdom of the Thousand Mountains - Jameson
Melisandra - Jameson

FC-FTP #114:
Cover and back cover - Jameson
ifc and ibc - definitely Dan Noonan, not Kelly.
The Sleeping Giant - Jameson
Leonora the Beautiful - Mo Gollub, I'm pretty certain. I had once pegged this as Noonan, but I don't think so now.
The Sorcerer's Apprentice - THE Great Unknown

FC-FTP #121:
Cover and back cover - Jameson (signed)
ifc and ibc - definitely Dan Noonan, not Kelly (check out the lid on the jack-in-the-box on the ibc).
The Dragon Knight - Jameson
The Magic Forest - Mo Gollub
Water Sprite Baby - Jameson
Twilight in the Country - Noonan
Tweedle-Dum-Dee - Jameson

All for now.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[OtherEric]

Well, I won't argue with any of your disagreements with my attributions, Jim.  Other than a few inside covers you didn't disagree with any of my strong opinions.  And I can't really argue with those, either.  I'm not sure why I assigned Kelly the 104 IFC looking at it now.  On 121 it was because of the Albert and Elephant dolls; I think Noonan was definitely making a nod towards Kelly with those.

I can't believe "THE great unknown" is unknown; the style is quite obvious and nice.  Even with my limited skills I could pick out his work on the various issues of FTP.

[JVJ]

No, you were FINE on the attributions, Eric,
Noonan was very definitely and deliberately keeping the Kelly feel in his work You are not the first nor the last who has been or will be confused because of that. If it wasn't for Hames' notes, I'd probably be in your shoes, too. I love Kelly, but I'm not an expert at his early work.

(aside: have you ever seen the work Kelly did for the Army on their series of booklets to introduce GIs to the language and customs of foreign countries? I have one of them - possibly two, as he might have been the one mimicking Ham Fisher on one that utilized Joe Palooka.)

THE Great Unknown is incredibly distinctive. Why no one has come forth to claim this work in over 60 years is an even GREATER mystery. And why no one who spoke to Kelly and Noonan and Gollub and Dell editors over the years ever asked about him/her ranks up there pretty high, too.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[OtherEric]

No, I haven't seen those booklets.  I may have seen some pages from them; I'm trying to remember where I heard about them.  They sound fascinating, though.

Do you know of any work by THE great unknown in other titles?

[JVJ]

No, I haven't seen those booklets.  I may have seen some pages from them; I'm trying to remember where I heard about them.  They sound fascinating, though.

Do you know of any work by THE great unknown in other titles?

No, Eric,
That's the most frustrating thing. There is no indication of this style ANYWHERE else in or out of comics. Perhaps it was someone who was killed in WWII? We know NOTHING else about the artist except these samples at Dell. (And we all KNOW that Dell is now a computer company and doesn't know ANYTHING about comic books....)

[PeterC]

I'm copying my earlier reply to Peter here, Eric:

FC-FTP #107:
Cover and back cover - Jameson
ifc - definitely Dan Noonan, not Kelly.
Tiny Esmeralda - Jameson
Kingdom of the Thousand Mountains - Jameson
Melisandra - Jameson

Hey Jim... I'm taking you and OtherEric up on your Ids and am entering them into the GCD... but Four Color #107 seems to be Little Orphan Annie, not Fairy Tale Parade... Was this supposed to be another issue?

I've gotten somewhat through your and OtherEric's attributions, but it won't be done for a bit...

I totally agree that it's a bummer that THE Great Unknown is unknown.  Beautiful artwork, very distinctive.  I'm putting them into the GCD as The Great Unknown, with a note, since it's obviously all the same artist.

Peter

[OtherEric]

It's 104, not 107

Rule of thumb is trust Jim over me; and the text pieces where neither Jim or I are sure (Wee men of the glen, Magic Ball) I wish somebody else would jump in and make a guess as well.

[Jedifish]

I was going to index #3, 7 and 9 for the GCD, and thought I'd double check the credits listed previously in the thread by Jim and Eric, plus those listed by rmdavidson with the downloads at DCM

#3
Wraparound cover - Walt Kelly
To our readers - Walt Kelly border
Rip Van Winkle - Walt Kelly art
The Table, the Donkey and the Stick - Is that the Bubble artist signature in the first panel in the grass?
The Princess on the Glass Hill - L. Bing art
The Wolf and the Seven Kids - Walt Kelly art (credited in the table of contents)
The Elves and the Cobbler - ?
The Enchanted Prince - Jon Small art (signed)
Rumpelstiltskin - Arthur E. Jameson
Washington Irving - Walt Kelly border

#7
Wraparound cover - Walt Kelly
A Visit to Fairlyand - Walt Kelly art
The Dragon of Dilly Dundee - Walt Kelly art
The Ugly Duckling - George Kerr art
The Story of Lazy Jack - Dan Noonan ? art
The Brave Prince - The Bubble artist
The Mermaid - Arthur E. Jameson
Willy the Wallaby - Walt Kelly art

#9
Cover - Walt Kelly art
Barabumbo - Walt Kelly art
Prince Robin and the Dwarfs - Walt Kelly art
The Legend of Saturday Mountain - Arthur E. Jameson art
The Snow Queen - L. Bing art
The First Flower of Spring - Walt Kelly art
Back cover - Walt Kelly art

Thoughts?

Thanks
Greg

[narfstar]

I would feel pretty confident with Eric and Jim's art id

[Jedifish]

I would feel pretty confident with Eric and Jim's art id

So would I, but they didn't address Issue #3 in the thread, and they didn't say anything about the Walt Kelly credits (unless the lack of mention means that those are his stories by default).

So I'm just looking to verify before finalizing the indexes.

Greg

[JVJ]

Just for the public record, Greg,
let me retract my guess of Noonan on "The Story of Lazy Jack" in FTP #7. I no longer consider him a possibility. All of the Walt Kelly IDs for #7 and 9 seem correct to me.

I wish I were as confident of my IDs as narfstar is. I'm always questioning myself.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Jedifish]

Thanks again, Jim.

And if you get a chance to look at #3 over at DCM, I'd appreciate any feedback you may have. That'll finish the Fairy Tale Parade series at the GCD.

Greg