in house dollar bill thumbnail
In-House Image
 Total: 43,548 books
 New: 84 books




small login logo

Please enter your details to login and enjoy all the fun of the fair!

Not a member? Join us here. Everything is FREE and ALWAYS will be.

Forgotten your login details? No problem, you can get your password back here.

Watchmen Movie

Pages: [1] 2

topic icon Author Topic: Watchmen Movie  (Read 18383 times)

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Watchmen Movie
« on: March 14, 2009, 10:16:00 PM »

Ok Gang,
Anyone else seen this yet and have an opinion on it?
I got to see it yesterday with a female friend who doesn't know the Moore series but is a semi-fan of some comics and comic based movies.

My thoughts -
I enjoyed the original series though the pirate comic sections bored me silly and I didn't miss them at all in the movie or the 'motion comic' that was produced.  I wont be bothering with animated dvd to be released later this year.

[SPOILERS ALERT]

I recently watched the Motion Comic to refresh my memory before seeing the film.  The film has some subtle tweaks to the dialogue and curious changes to some irrelevant numbers like how long the short mob boss had be locked up in prison but these weren't worrying about.  Silk Spectre 2 seems to have been made less militant and bitter and more 'hot' than in the comic though that might be just Gibbon's artwork.  His women will never be confused with a drawing by Matt Baker!   ;)
An energy sub-plot seemed an excuse to GRAPHICALLY shoot and kill Lee Iacocca in Matrix style slo-mo.
It got a sick laugh from my audience.
The jail break scene was another chance for Director Snyder to amp up the action sequences with Matrix slo-mo fight scenes of Spectre and Night Owl (who looked more buff than the comic).  I'm sure Hollywood screamed 'not enough action' without these additions.
The most objectionable addition to me though was the AMAZINGLY BRUTAL and GRAPHIC massacre of street thugs by Spectre and Night Owl - a scene that only last a few panels in the comic and isn't anywhere nearly as violent or lethal as the movie.  Snyder doesn't seem to mind giving All of his Watchmen leeway to kill at their own discretion.  It's not just The Comedian shooting a pregnant woman or Rorschach meat cleaving a murdering paedophile - it's Night Owl breaking necks and Spectre impaling necks.  Snyder blurs the line between his heroes almost from the first scene making it harder for the viewer to discern the subtle questions Moore asks about the nature of 'heroes' in a fictional America.
Now of course that is the main thrust of the film and Snyder handles the murder mystery of The Comedian and the alienation of Dr Manhattan quite effectively.  But his fixation on BRUTAL VIOLENCE where Moore and Gibbons only hinted at it was NOT appreciated my me and will likely hurt the box-office draw with it's movie rating.  Anyone how thinks about taking a younger kid into this is not doing their child any favours.  The lady I was with cringed and groaned in pain watching these while also complaining about Dr Manhattan's lack of a loin cloth.  I told her Doc was a nudest in the comic but not as graphically as he is in the movie!  Not something I'd care to see in IMAX!  LOL
If they gave out an award for opening titles I'd give it to Watchmen in a heartbeat.  What a great way to summarize the alternate reality earth history with a walking h-bomb for a hero and the possible effects he might have on our world.  The film also had some great choices for music though having Leonard Cohen for the love scene was a turn-off for me.  I can say that - I'm Canadian!
Snyder amped up the love scenes as well as the violence.  From my eyes was tasteful.  It again helped soften the Silk Spectre from her angry feminist personality in the comic.
I think Snyder must have been worried most about the Mars scene where Dr Manhattan recalls his origin and first girlfriend.  This was one of the more challenging issues of the comic with multiple time threads interweaving to illustrate not only Doc's origins, upbring and romances but also give the reader a firm grasp of how Doc is simultaneously living every moment of his life since his transformation.  Past-Present-and Future are all one to him.  Snyder mentions it and even explains it but he didn't use EVERY reality thread found in the comic to illustrate it.  His first girlfriend is given quick work here but a Jerry Springer moment is added using her that was very effective.  We also get to see Doc's best buddy Wally die of cancer in a hospital bed in another added scene.
The most emotionally exhausting issue of the comic for me was #6 - Rorschach's origin.  Again Snyder tweaks subtle points (adding a dummy in the shower and a suspicious suspect from the moment he first shows) and completely changes Rorschach's form of retribution.  I suspect that was to avoid the makers of Saw from screaming foul even though Moore had done it loooong before Saw was written.
The casting was pretty good for the most part.  Jackie Earle Haley's Rorschach steals ever scene he's in.  Wonderful acting.  Billy Crudup as Manhattan was correctly under stated while Malin
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 10:26:32 PM by Yoc »
ip icon Logged

narfstar

  • Administrator
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 12:51:24 AM »

My wife and I saw it together. I concur with most of your observations. The plot was the star and overcame some lack luster acting. Rorsh was by far the best part of the movie other than the overall story. I have always believed the story to be my main interest and the actors as incidental in most movies. I found the violence acceptable because it was a violent film by nature. I would not have needed it to be graphic but do not believe it would work with the younger crowd without it. The sex scene was totally not needed. It could have been intimated without being shown gratutiously. As a Christian I was very offended by the Halelujah during the sex scene and my wife was livid. She enjoyed the movie up until that point then could not enjoy the rest. I think the movie did a fantastic job of conveying its intended message and would have rated it great if not for the sex scene.
ip icon Logged

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 01:27:37 AM »

Hmm, you REALLY think severed arms, shattered arms and legs and impaled necks are a MUST for todays youth? 
If true that scares the daylights out of me!

If this were a Friday the 13th film or whatever I would expect it but the violence in this one went beyond any superhero comics inspired movie that I've seen.  Only the scene in the riot was actually depicted to that level of carnage in the comic.

Yes, the last sex scene was a bit more prolonged that I expected after the earlier one was so short.  The religious undertone of the movie was another point that Moore did touch on as well and I think Snyder tried to echo it by using this Leonard Cohen song.  The lady I was with is a very religious person and I was surprised she wasn't upset by the song or scene when we talked later.  In fact it wasn't even mentioned!  The violence and especially Ozymandias' 'God complex' bothered her.  I was glad I got to see the film with someone not familiar with the comic to get a fresh perspective on book I've know for a long long time!
ip icon Logged

kozmo

message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 02:43:54 PM »

while the Leonard Cohen song uses Biblical references, it is NOT a religious song.  It's a song about how powerful the memories can be of a sexual relationship.  There's David references, but they are references -- it's not actually about David and Bathsheba.

I had gotten so used to hearing the song used in movies that I'd not actually listened to or read the lyrics in a long time. If you look at the lyrics and apply them to Dan and Laurie's situation, it actually fits better than it seems. 

Having said that, my family went opening weekend. My wife, myself and my 15 and 12 year old sons.  The 15 year old really, really wanted to see the movie, as he is a big fan of V for Vendetta. (he saw the movie first, then devoured the book and liked both of them).  I was the only one who had read the book.  I probably had the weakest reaction of them all, and I liked it well enough.  My 12 year old did not care for the violence, and we sent him out for refills during the two sex scenes (they gross him out).  My 15 year old was thrilled by the whole package.  My wife appreciated the story and ideas, but thought the violence and Dr. Manhattan's penis were overdone.  But all three of them indicated that they'd go to it again if they got the opportunity.
ip icon Logged

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 06:05:30 PM »

They need something like TV has at the start -
"Warning - Graphic scenes of brutal violence and sex"  or something.
I'm totally against censorship but I do believe people should have a rough idea of what they are getting into before it starts.  Personally I wouldn't want anyone under 14 or 15 ever seeing this unless they were mature enough to handle it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Kozmo - especially on the Cohen song.  Like Dylan I admire his lyrics but I'm not a fan of his delivery.  I hadn't looked into the actually lyrics of this particular song.

-Yoc
ip icon Logged

OtherEric

  • VIP & JVJ Project Member
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 06:25:02 PM »

I thought the movie was good- even very good- but not great.  I'm not sure if we really needed an adaptation of Watchmen; but if we were going to get one it was probably as close and faithful as we were ever going to get.

I thought the soundtrack was wonderful; even if it seems I'm the only human being on the planet who has somehow avoided every movie that had used the Cohen song.  I had never heard it before in my life and to me it fit perfectly- see kozmo's comments, though.

Perhaps it's because I've read the book so many times, but Dr. Manhattan's exposure was a non-issue for me.  I was aware it was there, but it just didn't register as important for the most part.
ip icon Logged

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 06:51:48 PM »

I've read a couple of reviews that felt the music was 'predictable' but I thought most of the sound track was quite fitting from a cultural 'that point in time' angle.  'Flight of the Valkyries' being an obvious nod to Apocalypse Now.  'Hallelujah' was the one song that likely could have been any song that was fitting for the scene.  The sound track wont win any awards, heck the film could easily be shut out of any at all, but I did like it in the end.  I just wish it were a little less intense.
I understand Snyder has plans for a 3-4hr 'Director's Cut' dvd down he line.

-Yoc
ip icon Logged

JVJ

  • VIP & JVJ Project Member
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 07:02:00 PM »


They need something like TV has at the start -
"Warning - Graphic scenes of brutal violence and sex"  or something.
I'm totally against censorship but I do believe people should have a rough idea of what they are getting into before it starts.  Personally I wouldn't want anyone under 14 or 15 ever seeing this unless they were mature enough to handle it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Kozmo - especially on the Cohen song.  Like Dylan I admire his lyrics but I'm not a fan of his delivery.  I hadn't looked into the actually lyrics of this particular song.

-Yoc

I really don't go to that many movies, but isn't there a RATING system (G, PG, PG-13, R, etc.) that does EXACTLY that, Yoc? If Watchmen is rated R, I think that's a BIG attention getter to folks that they shouldn't be expecting Bambi or Snow White. People ARE given a very GOOD idea of what they're getting in for, so complaining about nudity or language in an "R" rated film is a little self-serving. If it came as a surprise it is only because you weren't paying attention. I mean I have NOT seen the film and, as I said, I pay VERY little attention to movies, but even I knew that there was full-frontal nudity and sex scenes. So, what's the beef? I can't see how it could be news to anybody and it should have been taken into consideration BEFORE buying the tickets, not afterward. Afterward, the subject can be, "did it work?" or "was it well done", but the fact of it HAS to be a given at this point.

2
ip icon Logged

cimmerian32

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 07:12:33 PM »

I am totally looking forward to the Director's Cut...  I think the story lacked certain necessary thematic concepts that Moore used the Tales of the Black Freighter to convey, and as I understand it, this will be interwoven into the DVD.  As far as the the theatrical release, I really liked it, didn't think the violence was overdone, and thought the sex scenes were fitting, and no longer in movie time than they were in panel time...  The cleaver scene within Rorschach's origin was an understandable departure from the Moore version, given the visual impact necessary to convey the psychological impact of the event on Rorschach's mentality.  the weakest moment for me was Tricky Dick's speech at the end, concerning the nations of the world uniting against Dr. Manhattan...  that was somewhat laughable.  Overall, I gave it 4 out of 5 stars for plot and delivery, 3 out of five for scting, and 5 out of 5 for faithfulness to the source material's intent, given the time restrictions of theatrical release...

On a side note, I went with my girlfriend (yeah, the living reason that I am so seldom seen or heard from these days), who went in blind, having never read the book, nor knowing anything concerning the story.  She liked it, and immediately wanted to read the comic!  Hopefully, this is an average reaction, and this movie will introduce to a lot of non-comics people the notion that comics are not just "funny books" anymore (much as the comic initially did upon release for most comic readers of the day).
ip icon Logged

cimmerian32

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 07:15:14 PM »

Totally agree with Jim on the rating thing.  Watchmen was rated R for graphic violence and strong sexual content...  It said so on the movie poster in the lobby.
ip icon Logged

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 07:30:56 PM »

Ok Ok, yes it IS rated 'R' and no, I did not pay attention.  No need, I'm an adult and went with an adult.  But I was shocked at the violence all the same.  I don't see a lot of new films anymore.  Since finding TCM I'm happy with my 'old movies' where you didn't need to worry about getting covered in blood watching something.  If what I saw in Watchmen is a typical R rated film these days I'm happy to stay away.  I wonder... Is today's 'R' a lot more graphic than an 'R' from 10-15 yrs ago?
I truly think Hitchcock had it right when he said something along the lines of you scare people more with what you Don't show than what you do.  ie 'Less is more.'
The alley scene was soooo far over the top violence it really turned me off.  It was worse than the opening death of The Comedian (which happened almost off screen in the comic) but was done blow for blow in the movie.
Not to sound completely anti-violence - I loved 'Kill-Bill 1 and 2' and Tarentino in general but I knew what to expect with him. 
I guess I went into Watchmen thinking I knew what to expect having read the comic.  The prison riot wasn't a shock though the change from blowtorch to angle iron cutter was - but that's neither here nor there.  I should have known better as '300' was just as violent and also by Snyder.
I always felt the Watchmen comic was pretty tame violence wise - the movie isn't.  I guess that it's my hang-up in the end.

-Yoc
ip icon Logged

narfstar

  • Administrator
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 08:16:31 PM »

Yes it was rated R. Yes I knew their would be nudity and maybe a sex scene. No that was not going to keep me from seeing the movie. My big complaint was the playing of a song that I do not know how to describe. It was not really a religious song and may on its own be offensive I tried to tune it out. But playing Halleluja during a sex scene was very offensive and not expected.  Violence in a violent movie sure, and graphic to suit today's audience. I just do not believe sex scenes are ever really "needed" in any movie below soft porn. It is always gratuitous. I would not complain about violence in a violent movie or sex scenes in soft porn or either in an erotic thriller. It is the throwing it in for titilation that I object to.
ip icon Logged
Comic Book Plus In-House Image

JVJ

  • VIP & JVJ Project Member
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 11:04:18 PM »


Yes it was rated R. Yes I knew their would be nudity and maybe a sex scene. No that was not going to keep me from seeing the movie. My big complaint was the playing of a song that I do not know how to describe. It was not really a religious song and may on its own be offensive I tried to tune it out. But playing Halleluja during a sex scene was very offensive and not expected.  Violence in a violent movie sure, and graphic to suit today's audience. I just do not believe sex scenes are ever really "needed" in any movie below soft porn. It is always gratuitous. I would not complain about violence in a violent movie or sex scenes in soft porn or either in an erotic thriller. It is the throwing it in for titilation that I object to.

Still having not seen the movie, Eric, I thought I'd check out the "controversy" of the song/sex intermix. Here's what the director had to say about it:
Zack Snyder:
Quote
"There are two Leonard Cohen
ip icon Logged

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 11:40:26 PM »

I'm sorry Narf, I'm still amazed the song bothers you more than the violence of the alley scene.
I'm not picking on just you Narf.  Today's society being so oblivious to the pain of our fellow man is a sad state of being.  Not just this movie but life in general.  *sigh*

I think I've figured out one part of why that scene bugged me though...
The fact that here we have supposedly our 'heroes' of the movie falling deeply in love just seconds after BRUTALLY KILLING at least two street thugs minutes before!  And don't say it was self-defence either.  Never for a second were they in any real danger both we and they always knew it.
It all goes back to today's dark 'anti-heroes' that have taken over from what I feel were the real heroes of yesterday.  Do we really need all our heroes to 'kill'em first and let god sort them out'?  (As the t-shirt and bumper stick say, no offence meant to Narf or any other religious folks here)

Jim, thanks for that interesting Snyder quote.  I'm not exactly sure what he meant by the scene being 'ridiculous' though.  I guess I'd have to see it again to pick up on it.  The shooting flames from Archie perhaps?  *shrug*

-Yoc
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 11:46:10 PM by Yoc »
ip icon Logged

narfstar

  • Administrator
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 12:39:45 AM »

My point on the violence not being bothersome is it being a violent film so violence expected. I have no need for it to be graphic but do think it was needed for today's audience. I agree that the fact it would be needed for today's audience is a big problem.  I know that it may seem heartless but I have no problem with killing violent criminals even street thugs. The good to society would outweigh the bad to the individual. How many people would be saved by the loss of one bad person? How many fewer people would turn to violent crime if they knew the consequences that others had experienced? I think the loss of innocent life would be reduced by much greater numbers than the loss of those not innocent. I am more about protecting the innocent.

I am not sure I understand the ridiculous statement about the music either. I just think it showed lack of sensitivity to those of faith. Then again there may not be that many of faith going to the movie.
ip icon Logged

JVJ

  • VIP & JVJ Project Member
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 12:44:24 AM »


Jim, thanks for that interesting Snyder quote.  I'm not exactly sure what he meant by the scene being 'ridiculous' though.  I guess I'd have to see it again to pick up on it.  The shooting flames from Archie perhaps?  *shrug*

-Yoc

You must remember that I'm replying from a position of ignorance re the movie, but my "take" on it is that they didn't so much "fall deeply in love" as just used each other as a release - sort of an obligatory "sex scene" if you will. The "ridiculous" part is EXACTLY what you were reacting to, and, as I read Snyder's quote, it was EXACTLY how he wanted you to view the scene. It was out of place and unwarranted. The song's lyrics, once you get past the refrain, are completely ironic. I'm a Leonard Cohen fan and even have that song on my iTunes. Here're the lyrics, MINUS all of the Hallelujas:

Quote
Now I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah

Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you
She tied you
To a kitchen chair
She broke your throne, and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah

Baby I have been here before
I know this room, I've walked this floor
I used to live alone before I knew you.
I've seen your flag on the marble arch
Love is not a victory march
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah

There was a time you let me know
What's really going on below
But now you never show it to me, do you?
And remember when I moved in you
The holy dove was moving too
And every breath we drew was Hallelujah

You say I took the name in vain
I don't even know the name
But if I did, well really, what's it to you?
There's a blaze of light
In every word
It doesn't matter which you heard
The holy or the broken Hallelujah

I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you
And even though
It all went wrong
I'll stand before the Lord of Song
With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah


Especially telling is the "I did my best, it wasn't much / I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch"

The entire encounter seems to be meant to be read as farce rather than any real emotional involvement. Joe Namath shouting "I'm going to Disneyland" after the SuperBowl victory. Owl and Silk saying "Let's make love" after beating the bad guys. It's sort of what's expected, so they did it. Cohen's song, despite the satiric chorus that bothers you so, Eric, seems to be meant to accentuate that irony. I don't think Cohen's lyrics are in any way aimed at or a reflection of religion, but rather use the word with its connotations of ecstasy.

again, my 2
ip icon Logged

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 01:50:13 AM »

No 'Tower of Song' that one.
ip icon Logged

narfstar

  • Administrator
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2009, 03:34:20 AM »

I guess most people can not appreciate how personal some of us take our relationships with God. I guess there was no intent at being offensive just ignorance.
ip icon Logged

JVJ

  • VIP & JVJ Project Member
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 04:13:01 AM »


I guess most people can not appreciate how personal some of us take our relationships with God. I guess there was no intent at being offensive just ignorance.

Narf, I in absolutely NO way meant to be offensive.
Your personal relationship with God should be simply that - YOUR relationship with YOUR God. Nothing I could say or do SHOULD be able to alter that relationship. Nor should our "ignorance" (as you so gently put it) be any cause for offense. And if a movie can change that relationship, it must have been one hell of a film (pun intended).

Peace, Jim (|:{>
ip icon Logged

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2009, 06:16:39 AM »

Hey Jim,
I'm pretty sure Narf wasn't speaking of us but Snyder, right Narf?

So has anyone seen the 'Motion Comic' version DC put out not long ago?
Done in Flash it's a lot better than I expected.  It's not 'true animation' but it showed some creative touches given the limitations.
The only real criticism I can point to is the use of a single male (and very good) actor for ALL the parts - including female parts.  If only they had sprung for second actress to do them I'd give it a big thumbs up.  And seeing it underlined the lame squid invasion that Moore used.  I'm still puzzled as to why he couldn't have done something, anything better than it.  I know some critics thought the Snyder ending wasn't much better but I found it very effective.  It got Doc M off of Earth and out of Ozy's hair while placing the US and Russia on a level playing field.

-Yoc
ip icon Logged

narfstar

  • Administrator
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2009, 11:05:43 AM »

Absolutely no reference to anyone here being ingnorant only to Snyder and Cohen. And it does not affect my relationship any more than someone disrespecting my wife or mother. That would be the analogy. Things like that affect me, and even more so my wife, as if you were disrespecting a spouse or parent. That is how we feel about our relationship with God and what the songwriter and director do not recognize. Thus the ignorance referring to lack of knowledge not evil intent.
ip icon Logged

John C

message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2009, 03:23:27 PM »

Disclosure:  I have zero interest in the movie, since Watchmen never struck me as a particularly compelling story.  So, I haven't seen it, and I'm probably not going to talk about anything plot related.  You've been warned...

Something interesting that I recently stumbled across in one of John McWhorter's books is the idea that there are discrete "levels" of formality in relationships, and language-based awkwardness or offense tends to arise when one party "jumps" more than one level at a time. As a polite example, when one addresses their friends as "ladies and gentlemen," it's either taken as a joke or feels odd.  I wonder if that's a big factor, here, where one's relationship with the story affects their reaction to key incidents.

I point this out, because often when I mention disliking Watchmen among other fans, I'm told that I didn't "get it," and that a lot of the story was meant to be ironic (and, thus...uhm...I wasn't supposed to enjoy it, I guess).  In the context of irony, it seems like the objectionable scenes actually fit better with the story, especially when I (vaguely) recall Moore back then talking about how superheroes were all really fetishists repressing sexual and violent tendencies.

That's not to excuse it.  Something I've recently been discussing with friends is the idea that a creator needs to somehow "earn" the right to be vulgar first by gaining the audience's trust and second by integrating it with the rest of the routine.  I use George Carlin as an example of someone who went VERY far out of his way to earn the trust of his audience, and (with the exception of people who are genuinely offended by concepts themselves) could therefore get away with using whatever sort of language or metaphors he chose.  Contrast with someone like Dane Cook, who randomly blurts out profanity and talks about sex.

Heh.  For those who'll say that sex and violence is "real"?  Well, first, I question what reality such people live in, because around here, both those things are frowned upon in polite company.  And second, maybe creators need to earn the right to use reality in general...

Anyway, what goes for standup comedy, because of the different structure, goes double for drama, in my eyes.  Since the goal is to keep the audience's attention inside the created world, elements that are too discordant at once (see my original McWhorter idea--you didn't think I'd forgotten, did you?) pull you out too quickly, because there's not enough trust built.

Am I closer to the target on the scenes in question?  Because it sounds like the real complaint is that the narrative didn't support the scene and that the scene was too prominent, rather than itself offensive.  In a different movie, everybody seems to agree, there wouldn't have been anything wrong.  To me, that sounds like the movie fails as a work, not allowing you to suspend disbelief.

(Meanwhile, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of Watchmen being supposedly "unfilmable."  It seems straightforward to me, once you eliminate the supporting documentation that, in Moore's on words, was "filler."  Because he sold the series as twelve issues, but could only come up with six issues' worth of script, in case anyone was curious.)
ip icon Logged

cimmerian32

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2009, 04:51:22 PM »

The entire point and impetus behind Watchmen is the deconstruction of superhero mythology and methodology.  Moore asked the question "What kind of people would dress up at night in skintight minimalist attire and go out and beat up bad guys?"  Answer:  The mentally unstable, sado-masochists, fetishists, thrill-seekers, and attention mongers.

The sex scene after combat is part and parcel of why Silk Spectre and the Owl do what they do.  I can understand why it wouldn't be palatable for some, I can even understand how some could take offense to it...  but I don't understand how you can say it isn't part of the film, or that it's inclusion in the film somehow invalidates the worth of the film as a whole.  Watchmen is what it is.  What it is not is compromising.  Alan Moore, having asked the question, wrote and scripted the answer as best he could, and Zack Snyder adapted the book as best he could.  Both did a great job, IMNSHO...
ip icon Logged

Yoc

  • Past Member
  • avatar for old site member: Yoc
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2009, 05:56:34 PM »

Some very interesting points JC and Cimm.
Thanks for sharing them.
:)
ip icon Logged

JVJ

  • VIP & JVJ Project Member
message icon
Re: Watchmen Movie
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2009, 06:45:25 PM »


The entire point and impetus behind Watchmen is the deconstruction of superhero mythology and methodology.  Moore asked the question "What kind of people would dress up at night in skintight minimalist attire and go out and beat up bad guys?"  Answer:  The mentally unstable, sado-masochists, fetishists, thrill-seekers, and attention mongers.

The sex scene after combat is part and parcel of why Silk Spectre and the Owl do what they do.  I can understand why it wouldn't be palatable for some, I can even understand how some could take offense to it...  but I don't understand how you can say it isn't part of the film, or that it's inclusion in the film somehow invalidates the worth of the film as a whole.  Watchmen is what it is.  What it is not is compromising.  Alan Moore, having asked the question, wrote and scripted the answer as best he could, and Zack Snyder adapted the book as best he could.  Both did a great job, IMNSHO...

You state my thoughts very well, Cimmerian.
If done faithfully, the film SHOULD be an Anti-Hero statement and SHOULD be offensive. I think that Moore's intent was to make superhero fans rethink their unabashed love of the genre. The fact that we're having this (or any discussion) about the series/movie is proof of his efficacy. It is NOT a simple story and, despite what JC (or Moore) says about the comic within the comic, I think it, The Black Freighter, adds considerably to his imagined milieu and, if you are familiar with the Judy Collins song, Pirate Jenny, "The Black Freighter" takes on even more weight. The fact that pirate comics, a VERY small sub-genre in real comic book history, are the dominant genre in the Watchmen world is Moore's way of pointing out that fans are always going to focus on SOMETHING, even if the genre is self-limiting - a point that he is trying (I think) to make about superhero comics, too.

One of the very best things, IMNSHO also, about the comic was the dramatic contrast between Moore's script and Dave Gibbon's "sanitized" artwork. A lot of the depth of the story is the tension between Gibbon's sort of "Curt Swan/Murphy Anderson-clean" art and what he's drawing. Can you imagine Curt Swan drawing full frontal male nudity? Or a love scene?

JC - I understand what you mean about trusting a performer/creator. We can accept (and explore) more from a trusted source because we ultimately believe that the journey will pay dividends worthy of the effort. I, personally, place Moore very much in the George Carlin camp of someone who earned my trust before Watchmen. Of course, I was watching him develop from the beginning (I read V for Vendetta in the British Warrior Comics as it was being created) and was very willing to give myself over to his premise and his story, trusting that he would play fair. I think Watchmen is still one of the greatest comic series ever created, and Moore, despite my not understanding the man at all as a human being, one of the best comic writers around. I loved his America's Best series for Wildstorm, although he lost me on Promethea - but the artwork on that series was stupendous - so even that paid off for me.

Watchmen the comic (and apparently the film) is not to everyone's taste. As Cimmerian32 said, it is what it is, and to criticize the film for being true to the comic is rather pointless. Having not seen the film either, I'm in no position to address the fitness of the sex scene to the story, but from what I've read, the director intended it to be disconcerting and he seems to have done the job well. Again, the fact that it's being discussed and that some viewers found it unsettling is proof that both Moore and Snyder touched on something raw in the superhero mythos. I say, bravo! We're talking about it and that has to be a good thing.

Peace, Jim (|:{>


ip icon Logged
Pages: [1] 2
 

Comic Book Plus In-House Image
Mission: Our mission is to present free of charge, and to the widest audience, popular cultural works of the past. These are offered as a contribution to education and lifelong learning. They reflect the attitudes, perspectives, and beliefs of different times. We do not endorse these views, which may contain content offensive to modern users.

Disclaimer: We aim to house only Public Domain content. If you suspect that any of our material may be infringing copyright, please use our contact page to let us know. So we can investigate further. Utilizing our downloadable content, is strictly at your own risk. In no event will we be liable for any loss or damage including without limitation, indirect or consequential loss or damage, or any loss or damage whatsoever arising from loss of data or profits arising out of, or in connection with, the use of this website.