[John C]

I've seen something similar argued in situations involving short stories written by famous authors that they had sold to now long defunct magazines. The heirs couldn't get a copyright extension on those stories because the author nor the publication he'd sold to had made any attempt to renew, if indeed they'd made any attempt to protect the property to begin with.

That's true, but (as Learned Hand pointed out in the appeal ruling) it's not really analogous to the situation here.  What Fawcett was suggesting was that, because McClure didn't copyright every installment of the comic strip, no copyright on Superman material should be considered valid.

The reality is that the comic strips were derived works.  They're in the public domain and you could reprint them, in theory, but the underlying copyright of the comic book doesn't go away because of that.

The incident involving the Terminator franchise shows a point, just don't admit to having been inspired by the work of a living author. Though fact is I'd have tossed this case out , theirs really next to nothing similar about the basics of Ellison's scripts and the Terminator storyline. Might as well have said he was inspired by HG Wells Time Machine for that matter.

Yeah, that's a pretty stupid move, especially when there are hundreds of earlier and later stories where the plot is "go back in time to save the future."

I can even think of one from the 1880s, which undoubtedly inspired the novel on which "Somewhere in Time" is based (a young man inherits a clock from an ancient aunt, which sends him back to 1640s Holland where he falls in love with this girl...).  It lacks the killer robot and the one-liners, but what are you going to do, right?

But then, it's Harlan Ellison.  I'm told that he's not so bad in person, but he's been downright obnoxious about claiming credit for "creating" things that've been around forever, like terms and ideas.

[JVJ]

But then, it's Harlan Ellison.  I'm told that he's not so bad in person, but he's been downright obnoxious about claiming credit for "creating" things that've been around forever, like terms and ideas.

I'd beg to offer a dissenting opinion on that, John. I used to send Harlan copies of my magazine, just because I thought he'd appreciate what I was doing - resurrecting old cartoons and illustrations. I had rather hastily put out one particular issue - trying to keep on schedule while preparing for another surgery on my ankle. Suffice it to say that it wasn't proofread up to my normal standards. I published, mailed out the subscription and comp copies and went and had the surgery. A couple of days after the surgery Harlan calls me and rips me a new orifice because I dared to publish something with so many typos in it. Never mind the circumstances or the fact that the magazine is called "ImageS" not "Words", and never mind my "excuses" - like time crunches, surgery and schedules - no, he just ranted for ten minutes about what a travesty my magazine was because of FIVE typos.

I took him off the comp list.

No, I don't think Harlan is "not so bad in person." In person he's just as obnoxious and self-centered as he appears to be in print - no more, no less.

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[Yoc]

LOL, Five typos... amazing.
I've only seen Harlan in action once at a Toronto comic con back in the late 80s/early 90s.  He was paid in rare comics he sent a list of and did a signing as well as being MC for a debate.  I can't recall the subject but he showed no mercy on anyone who asked a question he felt stupid.  It was entertaining to watch but I thought he went overboard at times.  I hear he's quite a comics fan.

-Yoc

[OtherEric]

I have no end of admiration for Harlan Ellison as a creator- I've read pretty much everything of his I could find; I'm down to some of the very obscure books I still need.  He is one of the great authors of our time.  But I dread the idea of meeting him one on one, no matter how much I admire him, because of his rep.

[darkmark]

Harlan's extremely self-righteous, left-wing, lawsuit-hurling, and, in a few rare occasions, reportedly, he hits people.  The best thing to do is admire him at a distance.  I didn't have a problem when I had a brief meeting with him at a con, but I didn't challenge him.  Had the sense enough not to.  By contrast, when I met Alan Moore, I talked politics to him for about 5 or 10 minutes while people were shoving comics in his face to sign and I think we both had a good time.  But then again, as I've said before, Brits are so courteous they could probably make you feel good while they were beating you up. ;-)

[JVJ]

But then again, as I've said before, Brits are so courteous they could probably make you feel good while they were beating you up. ;-)

I tend to shy away from any generalizations about any group of people, dm. While I certainly agree with you that there are a lot of very nice and courteous residents of Great Britain, I don't believe that there is any trait, good or bad, that isn't shared among any collection of human beings.

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[Captain Audio]

If I remember correctly Ellison wrote of being hired by a major company (it may have been Disney) and when he first showed up for work they were painting his name on a primo parking space, after one meeting in which he apparently showed his butt like a monkey in a tree ,as he left the building after about two hours on the job the maintenance man was already removing his name from the parking space.
PS
I'm going by a very poor memory here so if I'm not entirely correct please don't sue me Mr Ellison.

[JVJ]

If I remember correctly Ellison wrote of being hired by a major company (it may have been Disney) and when he first showed up for work they were painting his name on a primo parking space, after one meeting in which he apparently showed his butt like a monkey in a tree ,as he left the building after about two hours on the job the maintenance man was already removing his name from the parking space.
PS
I'm going by a very poor memory here so if I'm not entirely correct please don't sue me Mr Ellison.

If you don't know that something is true, CA, why would you repeat it in print? Either dig up the source and feel safe, or don't say anything and feel safe. Apologizing in advance isn't going to make you safe...

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[darkmark]

Harlan wrote of it in one of the intros to a story, iirc.  That first day or so, he said he was eating at the commissary and started doing a routine about the making of a Disney porno film, doing at least some of the character voices himself.  Apparently some of the brass heard him, and that wound up his tour at the Mouse Factory.  I *think* the bit was in STRANGE WINE.

[Captain Audio]

Harlan wrote of it in one of the intros to a story, iirc.  That first day or so, he said he was eating at the commissary and started doing a routine about the making of a Disney porno film, doing at least some of the character voices himself.  Apparently some of the brass heard him, and that wound up his tour at the Mouse Factory.  I *think* the bit was in STRANGE WINE.

I've read a few Ellison story collections, but I think I read his account of the incident at Disney in a magazine article, so I'm not sure of the details.
There are a few clips of popular animated characters cussing and making lewd remarks floating around, made by the animators as a joke in their spare time, the cut of a stuttering Porky Pig becoming frustrated and shouting an obsentity is one I saw on TV many years ago.
Ellison's idea would have probably not raised eyebrows among the Disney animators, they had to have seen much the same many times before.

Found the story quoted again here
http://io9.com/5058268/is-the-starlost-the-worst-science-fiction-series-ever-made

A few hours after arriving for his first day of work at Disney Studios, Ellison and several fellow writers headed off to the studio commissary for lunch. Once there, Ellison jokingly suggested they "do a Disney porn flick" and proceeded to act out the parts while imitating the voices of several animated Disney characters. Unbeknownst to him, Roy Disney and the other studio heads were sitting adjacent to his table. Ellison claims that he returned to his office to find a pink slip on his desk and the name on his parking space whited out.

I don't think the Porno bit was mentioned in the article I first read.

[Captain Audio]

Harlan wrote of it in one of the intros to a story, iirc.  That first day or so, he said he was eating at the commissary and started doing a routine about the making of a Disney porno film, doing at least some of the character voices himself.  Apparently some of the brass heard him, and that wound up his tour at the Mouse Factory.  I *think* the bit was in STRANGE WINE.

I've read a few Ellison story collections, but I think I read his account of the incident at Disney in a magazine article, so I'm not sure of the details.
There are a few clips of popular animated characters cussing and making lewd remarks floating around, made by the animators as a joke in their spare time, the cut of a stuttering Porky Pig becoming frustrated and shouting an obsentity is one I saw on TV many years ago.
Ellison's idea would have probably not raised eyebrows among the Disney animators, they had to have seen much the same many times before.

Found the story quoted again here
http://io9.com/5058268/is-the-starlost-the-worst-science-fiction-series-ever-made

A few hours after arriving for his first day of work at Disney Studios, Ellison and several fellow writers headed off to the studio commissary for lunch. Once there, Ellison jokingly suggested they "do a Disney porn flick" and proceeded to act out the parts while imitating the voices of several animated Disney characters. Unbeknownst to him, Roy Disney and the other studio heads were sitting adjacent to his table. Ellison claims that he returned to his office to find a pink slip on his desk and the name on his parking space whited out.

I don't think the Porno bit was mentioned in the article I first read.

I had gotten the impression from the article I'd read that his antics were during a board meeting while complaining about his not being given enough freedom to do what he liked with a script.

[John C]

No, I don't think Harlan is "not so bad in person." In person he's just as obnoxious and self-centered as he appears to be in print - no more, no less.

Entirely fair.  I'm just going by the handful of people who spoke to him briefly at conventions.

The majority of my exposure to him was when that JLA issue lampooned him as a loser trying to get in Black Canary's pants.

I had gotten the impression from the article I'd read that his antics were during a board meeting while complaining about his not being given enough freedom to do what he liked with a script.

I've heard similar things about him, and find it interesting that he'll be the first to throw lawsuits to defend "his" ideas, but believes he should have free reign to mess around with everybody else's toys and that, goodness, nobody should EVER change a single letter of his pristine writing.

(I'm actually not fond of his writing.  There's the occasional gem, but there's so much "realism" to slog through that it stops being fun on the way there.  I even stopped watching "Babylon 5" after the first episode or two, because I could smell his influence on the scripts.  Yes, I later picked it back up and watched to the end, and was pleasantly surprised that the Ellison influence had shifted out.)

[Captain Audio]

Must have hit quote rather than modify with the last post.

Anyway while I like a lot about Ellison's stories, his signature style grates on the nerves and very often detracts from the story itself by making it a labour to wade through.
I can't think of any other author who's own negative personality quirks intrude into the story he is writing to that extent, and I'm not at all sure I could tell how he does it.

Moorecock has a similar grating influence at times, though not as destructive for the most part, but I can see how that happens far easier with his work.

[darkmark]

Could it be that's common with New Wave authors?  Dunno, but a few of the old guys (Heinlein, Asimov, Bradbury, Sturgeon) still hold up with me.

[JVJ]

Could it be that's common with New Wave authors?  Dunno, but a few of the old guys (Heinlein, Asimov, Bradbury, Sturgeon) still hold up with me.

One of the new guys that I really like is John Scalzi, dm.
You should try him if you're still reading sf. The Old Man's War or The Android's Dream are two I would suggest. He reminds me a lot of Heinlein in his early prime.

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[Captain Audio]

Some of Heinleins characters grate a bit, too in your face and confident of their opinions, but thats common enough in real life.
Bradbury's stamp is on every sentence, but its a kinder gentler stamp that greatly improves the stories. One reason his stories work less well as films than when read.

Asimov is almost a class by himself.

[narfstar]

I guess Alan E. Nourse is my favorite SciFi writer. Just plain good reads. I like Robert Silverberg as pretty easy reads. I like to read for fun. So heavy reading is not what I am looking for in my old age.

[OtherEric]

Asimov, I tend to agree with what Douglas Adams said (paraphrased):  "The ideas are incredible but I wouldn't hire the man to write greeting cards."  But with that said, the ideas are so spectacular that they're still fun to read.

[Roygbiv666]

I used to love Heinlein, particularly his "Future History" short stories. Then I started reading his novels, or should I say, "novel", since he only seemed to tell the one story over and over and over. Two super-couples, with a tinge of incest and underage sex, must band together against dark unseen forces and ... blah blah blah.

Same thing with James P. Hogan - same story.

Robert L. Forward, author of "Dragon's Egg" was good.

[JonTheScanner]

Young Heinlein was good.  When he got older he got repetitive as you say.  "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" was quite good as I recall.  Stranger in a Strange Land started very well.  I've heard he started to write that story and put it away and came back to it years later -- I'd definitely believe that.

Right now I like Niven, Baxter, Sawyer (hope his success with selling Flash Forward to TV doesn't ruin him), and McDevitt the best.

[JVJ]

I used to love Heinlein, particularly his "Future History" short stories. Then I started reading his novels, or should I say, "novel", since he only seemed to tell the one story over and over and over. Two super-couples, with a tinge of incest and underage sex, must band together against dark unseen forces and ... blah blah blah.

Same thing with James P. Hogan - same story.

Robert L. Forward, author of "Dragon's Egg" was good.

I agree about Heinlein, Roy. After Stranger in a Strange Land, his hangups got the better of him and he should have quit while he was ahead.

John Scalzi reminds me of the Heinlein that I loved. I've been re-reading C.J. Cherryh's Merchanter series since she recently released another novel in the series. Holds up remarkably well. Also just read "And Another Thing!" by Eoin Colfer, Part Six of Three in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series. Very funny. I've liked Richard K. Morgan's work up until his recent foray into serialized gay sword and sorcery. But don't let that stop you from reading Altered Carbon or any other of the Takeshi Kovacs books. Good stuff.

My favorite, again, up until his last book, has been Neal Stephenson - read Snow Crash or Diamond Age for some rollicking good sf. Or, my absolute favorite of his is Cryptonomicon, which isn't so much sf, but which you'll find in the sf section of all bookstores. One of the best books I've read in the last 15 years.

Maybe this thread should be broken off or changed to "Writers I Like"?

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[narfstar]

I really liked EE Doc Smith's last series "The Family D'Albart(sp)" I got most of the Skylark and Lensman series cheap. Then I started reading them from the start. I really did not like Skylark at all. It just kept getting more far fetched with what was needed just being added. Famiily D was pretty down to earth while Skylark became too far out. In case anyone is not aware of his later work the Family D was a circus family from a triple gravity world. Fit acrobats on their homeworld they were amazing on single gravity worlds. Would make a very good comic book series.

I love The Dragon Riders of Pern series. I have stopped getting them because even the best series wear thin. I do recommend them.

Not sci fi but I have read the whole Forrester Hornblower series. A naval hero worthy of a comic book series.

I just changed the topic to favorite sci fi writers but am mentioning some I did not like. Witch World had several books so I tried it. I could not get into Andre Norton's writing at all and did not get very far into the first book.

[JVJ]

I love The Dragon Riders of Pern series. I have stopped getting them because even the best series wear thin. I do recommend them.

I had the exact same experience with the Pern series, narf. I loved The White Dragon and most of the books that had Michael Whelan covers, but, as you say, the series eventually became thin, repetitive and very far removed from the original premises that drew me into it. I don't think I even finished whatever the last book of the series that I purchased.

Another author to whom I was introduced by an artist is Jonathan Carrol. It's hard to classify him as sf, but almost impossible not to. He's in a class by himself and highly recommended.

Neil Gaiman, Douglas Adams, and some of Gene Wolfe's early stuff I like a lot. I read the Doc Smith stuff back when I was a teen-ager, and if I remember it correctly, it was good fun, but I don't think it would appeal to me today. I went back and read a few early Heinleins a couple of years ago and was surprised at how well they have held up. Revisited the Foundation Trilogy by Asimov about five years ago and they, too, read well. I've never been able to get into the Hornblower series. Perhaps it's because my older brother REALLY liked them and I was simply too perverse to go along with HIM.

Reading is something I do CONSTANTLY. I'm currently running through all of the Michael Connelly Harry Bosch detective novels and alternating them with the Lee Child Jack Reacher series. If you haven't read Stieg Larson's Millennium series, starting with The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, I also heartily recommend that.

Now you see why I don't own a TV...

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[OtherEric]

I still love Heinlein, even if tend to agree his later stuff isn't as good.  It still has moments that make it worth reading to me, but your mileage might vary.  I would also put the cut off for the end of his "good stuff" later; in particular Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a favorite of mine.

Doc Smith is fun to read to see where so much stuff started but it's been strip mined by everybody else to the point where it doesn't work as well if you don't have the historical context.

I did enjoy the new Hitchhiker's Guide book.  It wasn't Douglas Adams but it didn't try to be and that's why it worked.  Douglas Adams is, sadly the one author where as far as I know I've read or seen EVERYTHING by him that was released.  There may be some early radio sketches but for the most part I envy everyone who still has stuff of his to enjoy for the first time.

Neil Gaiman, Harlan Ellison, Robert Heinlein, Michael Moorcock and Terry Pratchett I'm close to everything I can find by all of them.  But to different degrees there is stuff I can't find; Ellison in particular has a lot of stuff that's never been reprinted.  Except for Heinlein I've got at least a few genuinely scarce books by all of those authors.  I've also got the two books that are the complete "Cordwainer Smith"; I really should try and track down some of Linebarger's non- SF stuff.

I actually thought Anathem was a return to form for Stephenson; I never did finish the Baroque Cycle.  I really need to go back and try that again; he's another favorite.

In the odd side category, I think I have everything by "Kenneth Robeson" other than the handful of Avenger short stories that ran as backups in other pulps.  I don't think I have anything by any of the various authors who were "Kenneth Robeson" under their other names or pseudonyms other than Murray and Goulart.

I've got a nice smattering of the old pulp digests, Astounding/ Analog in particular.  After so many years of collecting they always feel cheap to me and there's an amazing variety of authors and stories in them.  (I wonder if the one story C. C. Beck did has lapsed into the PD; it would be an interesting item to show people.)

About 10-15 years ago I started joking that the plan was to open a bookstore when I retire in self-defense.  (I'm just under 40 now.)  Then around 5 years ago I realized that it wasn't a joke; that really is my plan. 

[Captain Audio]

I like Jack Vance.
His series of "Demon Princes" was great, and "Five Gold Bands" is probably my favorite of the stand alones.

E E Doc Smith made the Space Opera a legitimate form of literature.
Blackie Duquesne is the top of the heap as a Sci Fi villian, a villian you could learn to like mainly because his search for power was based on knowledge=power. The more he learned the more his goals became intertwined with those of his arch rival Richard Seaton.