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Is Alan Moore right?

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topic icon Author Topic: Is Alan Moore right?  (Read 1965 times)

The Australian Panther

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Is Alan Moore right?
« on: October 13, 2020, 10:23:21 AM »

I don't by any means agree with Alan Moore on everything, but when he speaks its worth paying attention.
As was mentioned elsewhere on CB+, Alan Moore has recently done a now somewhat rare interview.
The whole interview is here.
https://deadline.com/2020/10/alan-moore-rare-interview-watchmen-creator-the-show-superhero-movies-blighted-culture-1234594526/

Here is the gist of what he had to say:-
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  It was largely my work that attracted an adult audience 
Alan has the habit of having tickets on himself. Certainly his work helped, but Stan Lee marketed comics to teenagers and college students and they grew up and stayed with comics. The adults were already there.
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Most people equate comics with superhero movies now. That adds another layer of difficulty for me. I haven
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paw broon

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2020, 02:14:13 PM »

I'm just posting what I already posted in answer to Andrew's question. I am curious to read other folks' opinions.
That's about what we have come to expect from Mr. Grumpy. But he does have a point, sort of.  Superheroes may have been designed for kids but their adventures were read by teens and adults in big numbers.  Not being a big fan of the superhero movies, in fact I've seen only a few of them, I'm probably not in a position to comment.  But I do love the old superhero/Masked Mystery Men movie serials.
Anyway, I watch movies to be entertained, not to find out or be made aware of serious stuff.  I can get insight into serious matters from more reliable sources than movies.
His point about, "They have a long line of ghosts standing behind them" is telling. But he is mistaken to an extent in saying that superheroes were invented in the '30's.  In comics, yes, but as we know, in Britain as well as USA there were many superheroes in pulps, novels and British pockets and story papers.
I don't have a lot of time for the modern iterations of superheroes, all dark, violent, moody, needing a shave, but the genre has entertained me for most of my life, as have other genres of comics.
As for the Adam West comment, apart from the Green Hornet crossover, I don't really get that daft Batman version.  The GH tv show is much more entertaining, imo.  Oddly, I like the Batman 66 comics and the crossovers they did a few years ago.
I wonder how Mr Moore feels about Star Trek and Star Wars movies, or all those action films, are they also a blight on cinema?  If so, isn't that a bit elitist?
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misappear

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2020, 03:17:00 PM »

Panther,

Your post was packed with stuff.  First off, I believe Alan Moore should concentrate on his work, and perhaps eliminate the interviews.

Back in the day, not all comics were done for 12 year old boys.  Read any Superman from, say 1965, and compare the writing to Thor, Sub-Mariner, or Fantastic Four.  Huge differences apparent in the depth of Marvel themes over DC, and certainly aimed at an older audience.  Moore should know that

Moore may be on target for producing work such as Watchmen and Killing Joke and claiming now in retrospect that it was a linchpin in the push for more adult themes.  At least in America. 

Moore was initially all set to take his Watchmen characters from the Charlton heroes.  Many of those characters were only adequately fleshed out to begin with, much less so than either DC or Marvel.  The point is not characters, but writing that reflects more complex themes reflectIng the world at large.  Comics were, and are, reflections of our culture, macro to micro.  I do believe that the run of the first 100 issues of FF can be analyzed and proven to be every bit as steeped in universal themes as Lord of the Flies, and certainly Catcher in the Rye. 

I also don
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2020, 08:11:54 PM »

I've always found Moore to be overrated. From my POV the British Invasion of comics was basically "DC hired a bunch of Brits to ruin their comics".  ;) So I haven't read the interview although I did listen to a couple of YouTubers talk about it. Sweetcast analyzed part of Moore's comments as basically (paraphrased from memory) Moore enjoyed being the edgy guy in non-edgy comics, now he wishes comics were non-edgy so he can be the edgy guy again.  ;)

As for the Batman TV show, while it had its problems it was fun and true to a certain phase of Batman stories and I would much rather watch it than anything based on the 'Batman needs to take a Prozac' phase of Batman where he was over-serious, over-grim, and over-obsessed.

My favorite era of Batman was the late '60s/early '70s where they had a much better balance of light & dark, humor & seriousness.
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misappear

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2020, 09:20:41 PM »

Scrounge,

Your comment about Moore
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Andrew999

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2020, 05:13:01 AM »

Ha ha - thankfully, that's never happened to me - but I have a similar story:

When I first worked in an open plan office - back in the eighties - I found myself the only man with about a dozen women. Every morning, the women gathered around each other's desks and talked about soap opera characters like they were real people - Australian soaps were very popular here in the UK at the time.

At first, I thought it was like a game they were playing and I chipped in with some facetious comments - but the glares soon told me they were deadly serious and I backed away to my chipped desk in the corner and kept my mouth shut.
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2020, 09:49:25 PM »

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profh0011

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2020, 01:14:10 AM »

Over the course of the past year i got my hands on the complete series of both "LOST IN SPACE" and "BATMAN", and were watching one story per week, synchronizing them so I'd see the same 2 stories that originally aired the SAME week (and between 7:30 and 8 PM, the SAME TIME) back in the 60s.  Both shows started out great and got sillier as they went.  "BATMAN" was a flat-out sitcom from the start of season 2.  Some good, some awful, some GREAT episodes.

But I've known that for decades.  What surprised me was JUST HOW MUCH I found myself really enjoying "LOST IN SPACE"-- even the REALLY STUPID episodes!!!


This week I started over, only without the connection.  I just watched the unaired "LIS" pilot yesterday and the "BATMAN" pilot today.

Did you know the same director-- Robert Butler-- did the pilots of both "STAR TREK" and "BATMAN"?  In an interview, he revealed that he instantly got how insanely funny "BATMAN" was.  But meanwhile, "STAR TREK" didn't make any sense to him.  When the original pilot was later expanded into a 2-parter with a new framing sequence surrounding the pilot as a "flashback", he declined to come back to do the new part.
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profh0011

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2020, 01:35:24 AM »

I saw the "BLACK PANTHER" film in theatres, TWICE, was really impressed and enjoyed it immensely.  It totally blew my mind that they managed to create such a smooth melding of TWO completely different writers' work-- Jack Kirby and Don McGregor.  And, in the way these movies tend to do, it was interesting how they included the 3 main early villains in one story--

Klaw -- from Jack Kirby
M'Baku The Man-Ape -- from Roy Thomas
Eric Killmonger -- from Don McGregor

But then I read some VERY mixed reviews online, which got me thinking... and the more I thought about it, the more I realized, that perhaps in some subtle ways, there were some SERIOUS problems with the story in the film.  But the film is so well-done, they're not immediately obvious to a lot of people.  (It's kinda like "YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE" in 1967-- long a favorite of mine, but the story bothers me more and more every time I watch it.)

The problems, as I see it... The main villain was a victim, his plight caused by utter negligence on T'Challa's father's part.  WHY did he leave the boy behind? I compared it with with Dick Grayson.  Suppose Batman had NOT stepped in to rescue Dick from gangsters right after the boy saw his parents murdered before his eyes?  He might have grown up to be like Killmonger in this movie.  Killmonger was NOT really like the character McGregor created. 

The plot points up the incredible STUPIDITY of having a monarchy in which one man may replace another via a trial by combat.  WHY did T'Challa agree to such a thing, especially when he clearly felt GUILTY for what his father had done?  And WHY would most of the country IMMEDIATELY pledge loyalty to an intruding outsider who just killed their king, and follow him to a destructive war against the outside world, totally in opposition to everything they'd stood for for generations?  One reviewer pointed out, the film seemed to be pointing out how easily a BLACK-run country would collapse so quickly into a CIVIL WAR.  It sure as HELL was not like that in McGregor's 13-part epic in the early 70s.

And then there's the token white guy.  Since the late 60s, NOBODY has ever written Nick Fury or SHIELD right, but have repeatedly tried to make them like the CIA.  They're not. SHIELD is an anti-terrorist organization designed to fight neo-Nazis.  THEY'RE THE GOOD GUYS.  Period!  The CIA, meanwhile, have been, for the last 70 years, the REAL terrorists.  Ovethrowing democratically-elected governments, backing and arming rebels, inspiring terrorist organizations all around the world.  In other words, the CIA are the bad guys.  So in this film, the one decent white character is a CIA agent... when by all rights, he should have been a SHIELD agent. WTF?

There's so much good stuff in there.  Generally, I loved the portrayal of T'Challa (apart from that one serious lapse of judgment that almost got himself killed and his country destroyed); I REALLY liked M'Baku, loved his attitude and the fact that they took a minor early villain and turned him into an eccentric, independantly-minded good guy, who at the end wound up on the ruling council; and I really dug T'Challa's sister, so smart, and so cute.

I just thing SOMEBODY should have given that script another going-over before it went before the cameras.
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2020, 10:27:12 AM »

While I liked Black Panther, afterwards I thought about the story & realized it didn't really have a strong through-line. Rather than "Scene A leads to Scene B leads to Scene C" Black Panther felt more like scenes stitched together. Like they had a group of people creating scenes they wanted to include and handing this mish-mash of unconnected scenes to a scriptwriter and telling him to put it all together.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2020, 10:57:20 AM »

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Like they had a group of people creating scenes they wanted to include and handing this mish-mash of unconnected scenes to a scriptwriter and telling him to put it all together.


That's likely correct. IMDB credits 4 scriptwriters, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, to start. Lee might have provided the words to Jack's introduction to the character in FF, but as many of us on CB+ know, the ideas for Black Panther were Jack's from an idea in Alarming Tales back in the 50's. The other two are Ryan Coogler, also the Director and Joe Robert Cole. Thomas and McGregor, who was a huge influence on the script they actually used, don't get a mention at all. This will have been signed off on by Marvel and Disney's lawyers. 'You have a problem with that? So sue us.'
In actual fact a Hollywood script can go though up to a dozen writers before it's filmed. And the director can change elements of the film while he is making it.
With a Blockbuster like this, there are formulaic elements that the film must have, [Like the fight between T'Challa and M'Baku] and the script must accommodate them. Business decisions come before storytelling.
Like you I really enjoyed it at the time - but then I like occasionally to go to the movies, switch most of my brain off and enjoy the colour, noise and movement. I know I'm being manipulated, but I'm happy to just lie back and enjoy it. That said, Black Panther was one of the better Marvel films.     
If you think this film was a bit of a mess. the last Star Wars film stunk to high heaven. The second last one I didn't even bother to see, and that is a first for me.
I just love these
Honest Trailers - Black Panther
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBYzYji4rmE

I'm not particularly looking forward to Daniel Craig's last James Bond either. There are now too many PC  elements that have to be ticked off before a film is green-lighted.
Cheers!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 11:45:13 AM by The Australian Panther »
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paw broon

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2020, 06:37:08 PM »

I think SS might have a good point re. Brits ruining the business. It did all become a bit violent and a lot harder.  All that faux emotion as DC tried to make their comics modern and relevant turned me off.
I'm jumping about a bit here but despite what I wrote about not being a fan of the Batman tv show, some of my favourite runs of titles from DC are Batman; Detective, and particularly Worlds Finest from the late '50's to early'60's.  They were among the first American comics I read as American comics appeared late'59 in newsagents in UK.  I just loved, and still do, the daft stories - Batman with super powers and all the other weird Batman looks.  Many years later I discovered that the art I liked most on WF was by Dick Sprang and Charles Paris.  I now have a decent wee collection of those 3 titles from that era. 
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2020, 11:14:33 PM »

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some of my favourite runs of titles from DC are Batman; Detective, and particularly Worlds Finest from the late '50's to early'60's.
Arguably more enjoyable and entertaining that some of what DC is doing now.
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profh0011

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2020, 02:15:36 AM »

LOTS of terrific comments & feedback here, guys.  (I imagine I'd have been lynched at the "Classic Comics Forum" if I posted my comments there.)

I don't have a copy of the film, but it seems to me they had a credit at the beginning that read something like, "Based on stories by Stan Lee & Jack Kirby", and I believe somewhere later (in the end credits?) a general "special thanks to" with about a DOZEN names, including Don McGregor, and, I'm pretty sure, Rich Buckler. 

JACK KIRBY created the Black Panther entirely on his own with ZERO input from his editor.  The problem was... as always... his editor INSISTED on re-writing THE STORY at the dialogue stage, and much of the concepts Kirby had, which were UNKNOWN to his boss, never made it into the published comics.  Like the real reason the underground electronic jungle was built.  (It wasn't "for a lark" as the dialogue said.)


CHUNKS of the first 5 (out of 13) chapters of "PANTHER'S RAGE" made it into the film here and there.  Before I got BLOCKED from Don's FB page by whichever Stan Lee fan is running it for him, Don said he was amazed his crazy idea about the tech-armored rhino made it into the film's final battle scene.  Myself, I got CHILLS about halfway in when Killmonger fought T'Challa at the waterfall, then, LIFTED him up above his head and TOSSED him off the fall... JUST like the climax of chapter 1, and the opening pages of chapter 2.

But that scene is the closest it comes to what Don wrote.

Don told the story of how, when you'd be hired as an uncredited "assistant editor" (mostly proofreading and traffic control), you'd have a chance to get freelance writing jobs.  Nobody else was writing for Marvel in those days.  One day, Roy Thomas said, "Hey, Don-- how'd you like to write a Black Panther series?"  "SURE!" "Great., The 1st script's due Monday."  (It was late Friday afternoon.)

Don had been overseeing the all-reprint JUNGLE ACTION, bugged by all the WHITE heroes in Africa, and made his displeasure known.  Only decades later did he learn to his utter dismay, that "editorial" (read: ROY) held him and his previous writing IN CONTEMPT.  Don was given the assignment with the idea that he'd fall flat on his face, and then Roy could say, "Oh, well, we gave you your chance and you blew it."  But instead, Don started getting more FAN LETTERS from readers than all the other Marvels combined. Which must have really annoyed Roy.

The problem was, Don wrote FULL SCRIPT with page layouts.  He was bucking the system.  A system desinged, frankly, to make it appear that Stan Lee had always been supplying plots up-front in the 60s-- when, in fact, HE NEVER WAS.  Imagine that. An entire method for creating comics, designed as one big corporate CON JOB.

Something else that may have annoyed Roy-- if he'd ever had time to read what Don was writing (which he probably didn't)-- was the focus of the stories.  Don made a point of reading every comics T'Challa appeared in before writing his first.  And something was wrong. It's one thing for a king of a country to decide to occaasionally have forays adventuring around the world, to help other people.  But to Don, it made NO sense to have T'Challa MOVE permanently to New York City to become just one more member of a superhero team (Roy was a lifelong JUSTICE SOCIETY fanboy).  And on top of that, create a fake identity so he could become a school-teacher in Harlem (sort of like Sidney Poitier in "TO SIR WITH LOVE"), while COMPLETELY neglecting his own country and all his responsibilities there.

So "PANTHER'S RAGE" was designed specifically to deal with this lunacy HEAD-ON.  In other words, it was a rebuttal of everything Roy Thomas had done with BLACK PANTHER.  T'Challa figured he'd go home, and in 2 weeks, get this problem straightened out.  Instead, it took him TWO YEARS.  An old friend of his had seen the country falling into chaos without its king, and decided he'd had enough.  So he found like-minded individuals to create a rebel army to OVERTHROW the king.  This is clearly NOT the story told in that movie.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 02:20:53 AM by profh0011 »
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lyons

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2020, 04:39:34 AM »

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A system desinged, frankly, to make it appear that Stan Lee had always been supplying plots up-front in the 60s-- when, in fact, HE NEVER WAS.  Imagine that. An entire method for creating comics, designed as one big corporate CON JOB.

Stan Lee was the sole writer for many Marvel titles.  His process was to quickly determine a plot with the artist - who would then create artwork to develop the story.  Stan would then add dialogue.  Lee would later dub this process the Marvel Method.  He introduced comic book readers to the idea of flawed superheroes - a revolutionary concept at the time.  If Stan had not existed, the Marvel Age would never have occurred.

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lyons

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2020, 04:42:00 AM »


Quote
A system desinged, frankly, to make it appear that Stan Lee had always been supplying plots up-front in the 60s-- when, in fact, HE NEVER WAS.  Imagine that. An entire method for creating comics, designed as one big corporate CON JOB.

Stan Lee was the sole writer for many Marvel titles.  His process was to quickly determine a plot with the artist - who would then create artwork to develop the story.  Stan would then add dialogue.  Lee would later dub this process the Marvel Method.  He introduced comic book readers to the idea of flawed superheroes - a revolutionary concept at the time.  If Stan had not existed, the Marvel Age would never have occurred.
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lyons

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2020, 04:45:24 AM »

Quote
A system desinged, frankly, to make it appear that Stan Lee had always been supplying plots up-front in the 60s-- when, in fact, HE NEVER WAS.  Imagine that. An entire method for creating comics, designed as one big corporate CON JOB.


Stan Lee was the sole writer for many Marvel titles.  His process was to quickly determine a plot with the artist - who would then create artwork to develop the story.  Stan would then add dialogue.  Lee would later dub this process the Marvel Method.  He introduced comic book readers to the idea of flawed superheroes - a revolutionary concept at the time.  If Stan had not existed, the Marvel Age would never have occurred.

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lyons

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2020, 04:54:46 AM »

Quote
A system desinged, frankly, to make it appear that Stan Lee had always been supplying plots up-front in the 60s-- when, in fact, HE NEVER WAS.  Imagine that. An entire method for creating comics, designed as one big corporate CON JOB.


Stan Lee was the sole writer for many Marvel titles.  His process was to quickly determine a plot with the artist - who would then create artwork to develop the story.  Stan would then add dialogue.  Lee would later dub this process the Marvel Method.  He introduced comic book readers to the idea of flawed superheroes - a revolutionary concept at the time.  If Stan had not existed, the Marvel Age would never have occurred.

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lyons

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2020, 05:05:39 AM »

A system desinged, frankly, to make it appear that Stan Lee had always been supplying plots up-front in the 60s-- when, in fact, HE NEVER WAS.  Imagine that. An entire method for creating comics, designed as one big corporate CON JOB.


Stan Lee was the sole writer for many Marvel titles.  His process was to quickly determine a plot with the artist - who would then create artwork to develop the story.  Stan would then add dialogue.  Lee would later dub this process the Marvel Method.  He introduced comic book readers to the idea of flawed superheroes - a revolutionary concept at the time.  If Stan had not existed, the Marvel Age would never have occurred.

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lyons

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2020, 05:11:02 AM »

Finally got it right.  Sorry you had to endure my repeated failures to quote properly.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2020, 07:03:29 AM »

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His process was to quickly determine a plot with the artist - who would then create artwork to develop the story.  Stan would then add dialogue.

Basically correct, except that many of the artists supplied the dialogue too, and Stan sometimes ruthlessly changed the Dialogue. This I believe was the source of much animosity. 
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He introduced comic book readers to the idea of flawed superheroes - a revolutionary concept at the time.
Not exactly. Superman, restricted by his training and upbringing as Clark Kent, is arguably an earlier template for a flawed superhero.
Stan I have come to admire tho also being able to see his faults. He was the ultimate magpie and he had an uncanny gift for choosing and reading his audience, marketing the work, creating sympathetic characters and choosing the best creative artists and creators he could. And he had a photographic memory for Golden Age characters and concepts that were out of copyright. [Daredevil, Wonderman, Black Widow and we could go on]  Yes, he instinctively made his heroes Human, so Spiderman, Daredevil, Tony Stark, Thor [originally]. the Hulk [and we could go on] were originally all human flawed people as well as heroes.
But Steve Rogers was 4F before he became Captain America long before this. Stan instinctively saw the point and used it. Which is not to say this idea didn't owe something to Kirby or Ditko.
And Marvel did eventually [I think] pioneer the principle of crediting the creators on the splash page.
I've heard that J Jonah Jamison was Ditko's version of Stan Lee. Possible I suppose.
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The problem was, Don wrote FULL SCRIPT with page layouts.
So,if Roy was his editor, he was presumably OK with this?
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Only decades later did he learn to his utter dismay, that "editorial" (read: ROY) held him and his previous writing IN CONTEMPT.  Don was given the assignment with the idea that he'd fall flat on his face, and then Roy could say, "Oh, well, we gave you your chance and you blew it."  But instead, Don started getting more FAN LETTERS from readers than all the other Marvels combined. Which must have really annoyed Roy.

Sounds to me quite unlikely that you would run a business by hiring somebody to do a job that you expected to fail. This would have reflected badly on Roy too.
I don't know who told Don that, but they weren't doing him any favors. It may not have been exactly true.
Clearly tho, there was some friction between Don and Roy. In all cases like this I reserve judgment until I have heard from both sides.
From my own perspective, I had no problems with Don's intended narrative direction. But I found those comics hard to read, just too wordy and abstract. To me a good comic is one where the Art and the storytelling are balanced, work together, and with Don's early writing, that didn't work for me.
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In other words, it was a rebuttal of everything Roy Thomas had done with BLACK PANTHER. 

My feeling about Roy's early work for Marvel was that, as the first of the new generation of writers he was desperately imitating Stan to gain his approval. It's possible that that early direction on Black Panther was directed by Stan. Positioning the character in New York and making him a teacher sounds like Stan.
It's pretty clear that Kirby wouldn't have been too happy about it either. Another reason for Jack's discontent and disillusionment with Marvel.
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  This is clearly NOT the story told in that movie.
  No, but surely McGregor can be proud of the fact that his narrative vision had such a strong influence in the film's version of the Black Panther.     
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lyons

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Re: Is Alan Moore right?
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2020, 08:43:11 AM »

Superman is a poor example of a flawed superhero, Panther - he is the epitome of truth, justice and the American way.  It was Stan Lee who  introduced comic book readers to superheroes who had everyday problems and issues and who reacted with human emotions and flawed personalities.  Superman was definitely not the template for Stan's creative genius at Marvel Comics.                 
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