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[Janus Wolf]

An intersting article, comics have gone up in price, and I do wonder is the comic book still going to achieve the popularity it did in the 50's and 80's...or are we on a comic boom?

http://www.racomics.com/2010/04/26/why-comic-books-may-die/

Janus

[narfstar]

My LCS said they hsd the biggest FCBD ever. I think they are actually on the rise. I think there is an acceptance and awareness of them because of movie popularity. I do not think there will ever be single issue sales like before. With the variety to meet all interests and the acceptance of the comic reading by the general public I think they can maintain. I think the biggest need is another distributer to handle the indies to make them viable. I have an idea that I hope to pursue after school is out.

[CharlieRock]

Depends. Do you consider manga comics?
I do. And once those are included the popularity has reached Atomic levels. 

P.S. DC Comics has added a line of comics aimed straight at the younger audience using a manga influenced style.
Here is one example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Titans_Go!

[boox909]

Depends. Do you consider manga comics?
I do. And once those are included the popularity has reached Atomic levels. 

P.S. DC Comics has added a line of comics aimed straight at the younger audience using a manga influenced style.
Here is one example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Titans_Go!

Of course manga counts as comics -- however, I do not know the current circulation numbers Japan vis-a-vis North American (or we could just go with everywhere else other than Japan) -- int he 1990s we were talking weekly sells of series in the millions (that's 1940s numbers on Captain Marvel titles) and simply put, without some promotional item/bent, North American comics do not sell anything near that.

Do you have any data on the current numbers in North America (USA/Canada, et. tal.)?

I actually collected the first few years of Teen Titans Go!, an amusing title with a great animated show to back it up.    These types of books are important -- I buy some of them (including the Marvel equivalent) and gift them to the children of various friends in the hopes that they will one day turn to comics as a valid mode of education (reading) and entertainment.

B.

[paw broon]

As a natural pessimist, I do fear for the future of comics.  Here I suppose I mean American style pamphlet comics.  As the guy says on the link in Janus post, cost is a big problem.  Chatting recently to a couple of friends who are also comics enthusiasts, it was apparent that price was a real put off.  I paid

[narfstar]

I think pamphets are morphing into all graphic novels eventually. The pamphlet market will be milked for as long as possible but I forsee them going away for price reason as Paw mentions. As long as enough pamphlets are sold to make a profit before GN they will be around. How much longer I do not know. A small press publisher said pamphlets sales are important for profitabilty to be then transformed into a GN.

I see a very big reason for manga sales to have dropped. It saturated the market. Too many books with too little story. Too little story spread out into far too many pages. I think more people are realizing that it does not take twenty-two 200 page books to tell a story. No matter how good the art might be, after awhile too much repetition wears thin. I am usually ahead of the curve on such things and became bored with manga awhile ago. I think manga will start trimming down the number of pages used to tell a story. The variety of stories remains good and manga explores so many areas that it can go on forever. But one story should not be spread out forever. Echo is an example I would consider non manga style art in a manga style story. Drug out on and on and on when six issues would have been enough.

[CharlieRock]

Manga also went digital in a bigger way then regular comics. And from what I can tell (or more accurately, can't tell) it is hard to place readership of the digital only comics.

Anecdotally, the jumbo sized Shonen Jump which is a monthly compendium of several manga series still sells very well at local grocery stores.

Actual manga (imported from Japan) is pretty expensive compared to a regular graphic novel. In quantity you would be better off buying a bunch of graphic novels then a stack of mangas. But, the murikanime (manga-clones) and issues of Shonen Jump are really your best bet for the buck. I last checked a Shonen Jump a few years ago when a co-worker expressed concern over the future of comic books and I told him to consider manga as a comic book (he hadn't , and many still don't) with 268 pages and ten stories each ($6) while for about $3 you could get a Marvel title that was like 24 pages with full page ads and double page flash art.

[narfstar]

I think Shonen Jump has found a price point where they make little per issue but sell a lot of issues so it is a win win for everyone and apparenlty the mark up per issue makes it worthwhile for stores to carry. I think the current price for comics would make them worth selling by the stores but too many read and mangle them in the stores then make them unsalable.

[JVJ]

I'm not so sure that French BD albums appear to be a good buy compared to American comic pamphlets. Usually the format includes just 48 pages, barely more than two U.S. comics, at a price of around 12 Euros (currently about $15). Granted, they're hardcover and slightly larger, but you're still paying more per page of story. It's just that the package feels more substantial, not that it actually is.

My problem with modern U.S. comics (and Manga), and what DOES ensure that most Euro-comics are a better buy, is that the tradition of our storytelling has devolved into languid, drawn out and padded-beyond-tolerance pacing. The Euro comics generally refer back to a tradition of more succinct and accessible storytelling. So in U.S. comics, two issues of a title are just the BEGINNING of a story. In France, one album always manages to complete a story or a major installment in about the same number of pages.

The combination, IMHO, of Manga and the Image guys' pin-up, "I can do what I want!" influences have been a major force in the destruction of the U.S. comic industry. Big panels, extended action, fewer words, and longer stories require a greater monetary and temporal commitment. A 12-issue "mini" series is not unusual in the U.S. That would be a five-volume set in France and it would be fairly unusual (although, that IS changing as the U.S. influence creeps in here.) Frankly, it's the attention span of the U.S. consumer that's been shortening as the comics pacing is elongated. Not a viable combination.

As an aside, I began to read Terry Moore's ECHO, but then realized that it was going to run 30+ issues. I did the math, and at $3.50 per issue, I was going to invest over $100 (not to mention THREE YEARS) into the effort and I simply decided it wasn't worth it. I've better things to do with a hundred bucks.

Look at the GA comics on site. You could buy a 10

[paw broon]

JVJ, thanks for your insight re. B.D. I had a look round at some of them on my shelves and although this is subjective, picked out Le Scorpion (The Scorpion)  by Marini and Desberg  and reprints of Masque Rouge (Red Mask) by Cothias and Juillard.  These albums are, as you point out, 48 pages and I'm sure you're correct re. the price.  So the comparison, on the face of it, with a pamphlet containing 22 pages seems good - but (and it's a big one) the quality of story, art, paper, covers, presentation and storytelling are superior to many pamphlets.

Quote from JVJ:-
   "The combination, IMHO, of Manga and the Image guys' pin-up, "I can do what I want!" influences have been a major force in the destruction of the U.S. comic industry. Big panels, extended action, fewer words, and longer stories require a greater monetary and temporal commitment. A 12-issue "mini" series is not unusual in the U.S. That would be a five-volume set in France and it would be fairly unusual (although, that IS changing as the U.S. influence creeps in here.) Frankly, it's the attention span of the U.S. consumer that's been shortening as the comics pacing is elongated. Not a viable combination."

The pinup, extended panel stuff doesn't happen in Le Scorpion and it's better for that.  What the reader gets is a tight story which pulls the reader in and, hopefully, entertains and in this case, thrills.  I don't suggest that all B.D are wonderful because there is good and not so good but they are much better value than pamphlets.  The problem with extended series is real and Le Scorpion is a case in point as I'm up to #7 and know there are more.  I fervently hope the quality can be kept up.

[DennyWilson]

The future of comics is trades,plain and simple.

[bowers]

The future of comics is not in our hands... it's up to our grandchildren if they will survive. I learned to read from comics,and faithfully followed the characters I grew up with. As a father I used them to help teach my sons and now my granddaughters to read. My sons (late 20's, early 30's) still buy comics but it's getting very hard to find suitable new material for the little ones. Even comics that are supposedly targeting younger readers seem to be a collection of poor art, condescending writing, and potty humor. No wonder the girls prefer my collection of Classics Jr., Lulu, Raggedy Ann, etc. If the publishers will not provide good material for this age group, they may, indeed, die. Cheers, Jeff

[narfstar]

But look at the horrible humor in cartoons and even movies. Stupid is replacing funny.

[builderboy]

While I, too, worry about the future of comics, it is a worry that I remember to have had since the early '80's. Then, complacency with mediocre talent and the willingness to put out more issues and titles on a property that was showing strong numbers...JUST TO EXPLOIT the markets potential.  It reminded me of strip mining. I think what Marvel is doing now with Spider-Man, the frequency of publication and the number of titles, is ridiculous, and parallels what happened before the 80's collapse. Will history repeat itself?  Highly likely IMO.

But my worries were ill founded. The industry did a mini-implosion or contraction. It didn't die, and I was encouraged by some of what followed.  There are books out there that I think hold up well in comparison with anything that has been done historically.   I think my point is that there have always been good and bad players in the field at any point.  The ratio may go this way and that way with the times, but I think it would be a unfair generalization to say that quality is not there.

About JVJ's comment on story telling, I agree that the current fashion of narrative in no way resembles what was being published in the Golden Age. I don't agree that it is a bad thing. Again, some Golden Age creators were incredibly adept at conveying a story in sometimes a page count as low as 3 pages.  Others were not. I had read books where the narrative jumps from panel to panel stretch the readers ability to figure out what is going on.  I do agree with JVJ, though in the sense that I would like it if some writers tried to re-explore that discipline of condensed story-telling.

[paw broon]

"Others were not. I had read books where the narrative jumps from panel to panel stretch the readers ability to figure out what is going on.  I do agree with JVJ, though in the sense that I would like it if some writers tried to re-explore that discipline of condensed story-telling." builderboy.

In Britain, comics told many of their stories in 1,2,3,4 or 5 pages.  Sometimes, of course, these were serials with 1 - 5 pages per week but the story in a few pages was a norm and I think writers and artists got used to being short, sharp and to the point.  I'm not claiming these were great literature but for me, and heaven only knows how many other kids (and some adults), they were great entertainment.  2 pages of Dan Dare or Trigan Empire or 2 or 3 pages of Billy the Cat were wonderful and certainly left you wanting more.  And they were cheap.  Again, most of these were anthology titles and even when American comic  were distributed in 1959, the home grown anthologies and titles such as Marvelman still sold well.

Couldn't agree more about exploiting the market.  Probably why I detest the multiple cover idea so much.

[JVJ]

(In case it's not obvious, I've given this topic a lot of thought over the years...)

I would suggest the comparison between modern comics and golden age comics is analogous to modern software programs and the programs of the 1980s.

When the expectation is that there is unlimited disc space and memory available, software programming balloons up to fill that space - offering more and more "features" with each aspect of the program designed to entice a different type of user. Because processor speed, RAM and disc space are not considered germane, tight programming is considered passe. There is no reward for a programmer to write small code.

Similarly, When the expectation is for an open-ended story line, with no restrictions on the number of issues, there is no premium put upon compact, tight scripting. The glitz and glitter of leisurely-paced subplots and sidetracks is rewarded as good comic writing, with something for everyone who likes comics: conflict, physical violence, vigilantism, romance, sex, soap opera drama.

We used to have different comic genres, or different stories in anthology titles to satisfy different readers. Now that's considered passe.

But, and this is the crux of the matter, the bigger programs become daunting, and dauntingly expensive, and users start looking for open-source equivalents with fewer "features" and lower cost, with easier learning curves. Do you really NEED Adobe Photoshop at $600 or will GIMP work just as well for your needs for free?

That's what is happening with comic books. If you can't assimilate all of the backstory in Spider-Man this or Spider-Man that, or can't understand how they differ or overlap, or you just aren't interested in 2/3 of what's going on in any single issue, you're going to go look for some other source of entertainment - probably free on the Internet. It's just going to get to be more of a no-brainer choice: commit $100 to a 30-issue cross-over mega-happening at Marvel, or download another couple of YouTube anime videos or review some free comics on GAC or elsewhere.

Sure, the pamphlets will continue because big studios are willing to underwrite them for their own selfish reasons. But I maintain that the audience for those pamphlets is, quite literally, dying off and it's not being replenished at anywhere near the rate needed to sustain itself.

BD albums with more concise stories that reward writers who give the reader a full story that satisfies will also survive simply because that market is self-sustaining and, surprisingly, growing. Let's just hope that these European authors aren't dazzled by the "freedom" exhibited by their U.S. brothers and sisters and start to think that's what comics are all about. It's a false picture and a false ecomony propped up by outside interests. You need internal support to survive.

Pamphlet comic books in the U.S. no longer have that support.

my 2

[builderboy]

well said...