[narfstar]

Interesting because those issues would have already fallen into public domain before then. Does anyone have contact with Dark Horse? They did the Herbie archives.

[narfstar]

Herbie was after 1963 so his issues did not have to be renewed. However the Forbidden Worlds appearances would be OK. So it would seem I am correct that ACG before 64 are OK. If Mark approves them I can start uploading them.

[narfstar]

Adv Into the Unk 146 is the last 1963 copyright
Forbidden Worlds up to 117
Magic Agent should be OK if someone could check specifically as I read it was not.
Midnight Mystery all should be OK

The only problem that I see with ACG is that if it was reprinted before the copyright ran out then the new version automatically renews the copyright, from my understanding. But if Boughton was just given reprint rights then only the reprints would be copyright to him.

[narfstar]

I just checked through the Broughton reprints. Since Charlton was not copyright in the first place they were already public domain. Broughton actually published very little ACG material except Herbie. Most of what I found was after 1964 and anything published after 1992 would have already had an expired copyright. I only found one story from Adventures in the Unk that would fall in the range. It looks like all ACG through 1963 (actually cover date Feb-March 1964) should all be public domain.

[MarkWarner]

Summat I am not clear about. It is hypothetical question, but also I guess it must have occurred.

Publisher A creates a comic. They copyright it.

Publisher A give rights to Publisher B to republish. Which they do, but either fail to put a copyright notice on or fail to renew it.

Publisher A renews copyright. So Publisher A's version is not PD.

But what is the status of the comic published by Publisher B? Is it PD?

[narfstar]

No it is not pd. That is why there is discussion of the comic strips reprinted in comics. The original copyright holds. DCM just removed Joe Palooka and Terry and the Pirates as not sure about their PD status.  I wish someone who knows what they are doing could check for sure if they were renewed.

[bchat]

Interesting because those issues would have already fallen into public domain before then.

If you are referring to "Unknown Worlds", they were not Public Domain by the time Marvel was filing the renewals, as that title began publishing in 1960.

The only problem that I see with ACG is that if it was reprinted before the copyright ran out then the new version automatically renews the copyright, from my understanding.

From my understanding, the Copyright Office views each & every publication as an island unto itself, so reprinting a book would not renew the Copyright.  The only time I'm aware of in which reprinting a work came into play was in regards to the earliest US Copyright laws where a renewal had to be accompanied by a reprinting of the material six months before the first term expired.

[narfstar]

I was looking into Broughton. I agree we should not carry Unknown Worlds. But it seems all the others are OK up through 1963

[JVJ]

The only "ACG" title I can find any info on is "Unknown Worlds" (indicia publisher Best Syndicated Features Inc), which had renewals filed by Marvel Enterainment Group from 1989 through 1994 for the first 53 issues.

I believe that the title Marvel renewed was Journey Into Unknown Worlds, bchat, which ran for about 50+ issues from 1950 to 1957. Best Syndicate Features was one of Goodman's many aliases. No connection to the ACG "Unknown Worlds" title which debuted around 1960.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[narfstar]

Good to know Jim. It seemed strange he would pick just one ACG title to grab on to but odder things have happened. That would put all ACG up till Jan 1964 copyright about March coverdate as PD.

[bchat]

The only "ACG" title I can find any info on is "Unknown Worlds" (indicia publisher Best Syndicated Features Inc), which had renewals filed by Marvel Enterainment Group from 1989 through 1994 for the first 53 issues.

I believe that the title Marvel renewed was Journey Into Unknown Worlds, bchat, which ran for about 50+ issues from 1950 to 1957. Best Syndicate Features was one of Goodman's many aliases. No connection to the ACG "Unknown Worlds" title which debuted around 1960.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

I am talking about the series published by Best Syndicated Features Inc (aka American Comics Group).  Here's a link to issue # 1's renewal: Unknown Worlds No. 1, Aug. 1960. By Best Syndicated Features, Inc.

Journey Into Unknown Worlds (Marvel's title) was published by "Western Fiction Publishing Company, Inc".

[josemas]

It almost sounds as if someone at the LoC got the records for the Marvel title and the ACG title mixed up or possibly someone at Marvel mistakenly filed renewals on what they thought was one of their titles.

I certainly have never, over the years, heard that Marvel bothered to acquire the rights to any of the ACG titles.

Very strange.

Joe

[JVJ]

The only "ACG" title I can find any info on is "Unknown Worlds" (indicia publisher Best Syndicated Features Inc), which had renewals filed by Marvel Enterainment Group from 1989 through 1994 for the first 53 issues.

I believe that the title Marvel renewed was Journey Into Unknown Worlds, bchat, which ran for about 50+ issues from 1950 to 1957. Best Syndicate Features was one of Goodman's many aliases. No connection to the ACG "Unknown Worlds" title which debuted around 1960.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

I am talking about the series published by Best Syndicated Features Inc (aka American Comics Group).  Here's a link to issue # 1's renewal: Unknown Worlds No. 1, Aug. 1960. By Best Syndicated Features, Inc.

Journey Into Unknown Worlds (Marvel's title) was published by "Western Fiction Publishing Company, Inc".

You are so right, bchat.
and I am so wrong. I just looked at the surface info and didn't do the research. My bad. Sorry. Do you have any idea, other than Joe's, why Marvel should renew an ACG title.

Again, sorry for not doing my homework. Sometimes just going upstairs is daunting...

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[paw broon]

"Sometimes just going upstairs is daunting..." JVJ
Do you know you're probably speaking for many of us with that little remark?
I've just been confusing Rocket with Rocket - 2 completely different pubs. by 2 different publishers and I have to go back and sort out my folders, again.
Now, what was I supposed to be doing................?
 

[JVJ]

I remember, paw,
this INCREDIBLE sense of empowerment back in 1989 when we remodeled our house and added a second story JUST FOR BOOKS AND COMICS! Gee, but I was the lucky one. Now I look at those stairs and ponder "WHAT was I thinking? EVERYTHING I want is up there!" I should have saved up and put in an elevator. No space for one now. Sigh...

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[paw broon]

I've mentioned my pal, Russell, previously and he's a lot older than me.  He converted his attic ages ago, and accessed it by a ladder type thingy.  Is he regretting it now?  And once you've negotiated the climb, the sloping roof in the corners brings up the bruises nicely but what a wealth of delights up there.  Unlike your collection Russell has pulps, a simply enormous collection of old, rare, hardback thriller type fiction and old and obscure British storypapers. It's great being up there, but, I know what you mean, getting up and down is a task.

[bchat]

The only "ACG" title I can find any info on is "Unknown Worlds" (indicia publisher Best Syndicated Features Inc), which had renewals filed by Marvel Enterainment Group from 1989 through 1994 for the first 53 issues.

I believe that the title Marvel renewed was Journey Into Unknown Worlds, bchat, which ran for about 50+ issues from 1950 to 1957. Best Syndicate Features was one of Goodman's many aliases. No connection to the ACG "Unknown Worlds" title which debuted around 1960.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

I am talking about the series published by Best Syndicated Features Inc (aka American Comics Group).  Here's a link to issue # 1's renewal: Unknown Worlds No. 1, Aug. 1960. By Best Syndicated Features, Inc.

Journey Into Unknown Worlds (Marvel's title) was published by "Western Fiction Publishing Company, Inc".

You are so right, bchat.
and I am so wrong. I just looked at the surface info and didn't do the research. My bad. Sorry. Do you have any idea, other than Joe's, why Marvel should renew an ACG title.

Again, sorry for not doing my homework. Sometimes just going upstairs is daunting...

Peace, Jim (|:{>

No need to apologize.

I think the simple answer is: It's just business.  A company buys another company and merges similar assets together to keep things simple.  Maybe when Marvel Comics was acquired by Perfect Film and Chemical Corporation (aka Cadence Industries), Perfect Film just assigned the responsibility of renewing Copyrights of other assets it may have acquired over the years to Marvel Comics.  Or maybe Martin Goodman acquired smaller companies prior to selling his company that nobody is aware of at the moment.  Why (and when) only one title published under the "ACG" banner got acquired is anyone's guess, but it obviously did happen at some point.

"Unknown Worlds" isn't the only non-Marvel publication I've seen renewals for.  For example, I've found Cadence/Marvel Comics filing renewals for issues of  "Boat Sport", "Motorsport", "Melodyland", "Zest" and "Flying Models", all originally published by H-K Publications, Hobby Publications and/or Rockley Publications (all imprints of Joe Hardie & Raymond Kelly, by the way).  Marvel Comics never published any of these titles, they never revived any of these books, and as far as I'm aware they never reprinted any material from these books, and yet at some point they had acquired ownership of the Copyrights.  The obvious question is "why would Marvel/Cadence do that if they had no plans for those books?", and the simplest answer I can think of is "it's just business", acquiring assets to increase the value of the company or spending income to reduce "profits" in order to lower the amount of taxes they'd have to pay for that year.

In today's world, it's all too easy to know about anything as soon as it happens because there are dozens (if not hundreds) of websites & blogs ready to report on anything remotely related to comic books.  For example, Disney acquired CrossGen Comics in 2004, then Disney bought Marvel Comics in 2009, and now Marvel is able to publish CrossGen titles.  There's no "when did that happen?" because people can do a search online and find their answers.  But, go back 30, 40, 50 years with questions regarding what publisher sold-out to which company, and some of the answers simply aren't there.  What happened with "Unknown Worlds" is one of those "what happened here?" kind of mysteries (at least it is for me).

[JVJ]

Actually there IS a need to apologize, b,
It always irks me when I read someone spouting nonsense on the web, and what I wrote was nonsense. I like to think that I'm better than that. Obviously, I'm not, but I still want to think it. It's a wake up call for me to make the effort to verify my information before I post it. I'll check twice and post once.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[josemas]

Another possibility is that the legal eagles at Cadence/Marvel were give a list of titles that Marvel had published over the years and told to file renewals on all such titles when they came up for renewal.  Since Journey into Unknown Worlds had been, for one issue, titled simply Unknown Worlds, that title would have been on the list.
The lawyers, not being conversant with comics history, may just have filed renewals on every comic with that title as it came up for renewal.
If such is the case, and Marvel did not acquire the rights to ACG's Unknown Worlds comic prior to renewals being filed, then, as I understand it, those renewals would be invalid.

I guess one would really have to go to the LoC to see if there is any actual indication that Marvel did acquire the title.  I personally have my doubts that they did as it seems to me that they would have acquired all of the defunct ACG titles if they were interested in doing so.  Still it is a possibility and should be carefully looked into.

Best

Joe

[narfstar]

I was thinking along those lines also Joe. They simply made a mistake.

[bchat]

Another possibility is that the legal eagles at Cadence/Marvel were give a list of titles that Marvel had published over the years and told to file renewals on all such titles when they came up for renewal.  Since Journey into Unknown Worlds had been, for one issue, titled simply Unknown Worlds, that title would have been on the list.
The lawyers, not being conversant with comics history, may just have filed renewals on every comic with that title as it came up for renewal.
If such is the case, and Marvel did not acquire the rights to ACG's Unknown Worlds comic prior to renewals being filed, then, as I understand it, those renewals would be invalid.

As far as I know, in order for someone to file a renewal, they would need to have the original Copyright registration number as proof of ownership.

The lawyers wouldn't need to know the history of a comic publisher in order to file a renewal, they would only need to be competent enough to do their job properly and be able to sort through preexisting paperwork (the original Copyright registrations).

[josemas]

Looking up the copyright number would not be too tough.  Given the plethora of "publishing company" names that Goodman used I can easily see where an error might have been made in the first place (even Jim confused the similar names) and subsequent issues just followed.

I know of numerous instances in the film industry of lawyers screwing up when it comes to copyright renewal (failure to renew being the most common) and losing the rights to a film is a lot more costly than loosing the rights to an issue of a comic book.

The total lack of a mention in the fan press of acquisition of any ACG assets by Marvel over the years is what really makes me lean toward this conclusion.

I suppose someone could simply ask the honchos at Marvel if they actually bought the rights to that particular title.

Best

Joe

[bchat]

Looking up the copyright number would not be too tough.  Given the plethora of "publishing company" names that Goodman used I can easily see where an error might have been made in the first place (even Jim confused the similar names) and subsequent issues just followed.

If filing a renewal was as simple as knowing the original registration number, I would imagine that there would be all sorts of stories of one company or person falsely or incorrectly claiming ownership of other companies' Copyrights.

I know of numerous instances in the film industry of lawyers screwing up when it comes to copyright renewal (failure to renew being the most common) and losing the rights to a film is a lot more costly than loosing the rights to an issue of a comic book.

How many instances are there of film companies claiming, and then being granted, ownership of a film they do not own?  I've never heard of such a thing happening, so I would be interested in hearing about any examples of this.

The total lack of a mention in the fan press of acquisition of any ACG assets by Marvel over the years is what really makes me lean toward this conclusion.

This assumes that Marvel was directly involved in the transaction (as I stated before, it was probably the parent company that acquired the Copyrights and the process of filing the renewals were just assigned to Marvel).   If, when the acquisition was made, it was actually Cadence that acquired "Unknown Worlds", more than likely, nobody in the fan press heard about it.  I just don't see why Cadence acquiring Copyrights from companies that went out-of-business would have been "news" in the fan press during the 1970s or '80s, especially if Cadence decided not to release that information to the public.

[Roygbiv666]

I took this to mean film companies failing to renew, not film companies erroneously renewing things they don't own and getting away with it.

Check out:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ15.pdf

I know of numerous instances in the film industry of lawyers screwing up when it comes to copyright renewal (failure to renew being the most common) and losing the rights to a film is a lot more costly than loosing the rights to an issue of a comic book.

How many instances are there of film companies claiming, and then being granted, ownership of a film they do not own?  I've never heard of such a thing happening, so I would be interested in hearing about any examples of this.

[josemas]

Yes Roy is correct in that I was primarily referring to failure to renew as the most common screw-up that film company lawyers commit. It has happened a lot more than you might think and it is no small thing either as each failure to renew ends up costing the film companies big bucks.

I know of no examples where anyone has been able to file a copyright renewal on a film owned by a another company and then successfully claim it as their own.  If I gave you this impression in my previous reply, I apologize.  In fact, it is just the opposite.  In those cases where renewals have been filed in error or in an actual attempt to acquire rights to a film still owned by someone else those renewals have been found invalid.

So what I am have been trying to say is that I, personally, find it much more plausible that lawyers at Cadence/Marvel erroneously filed renewals on a title they thought they owned than that a company like Cadence/Marvel cherry-picked one odd title to buy from a small defunct comic company and that no one over the years in the fan press has ever picked up on it or made note of it before.
If they did actually buy the rights to the title from ACG then the renewals are valid.  If they were made in error then they are not valid.

For now, we should stay away from the title until we have time to investigate it further.   I do thank you for bringing this to our attention and have not intended to antagonize you with my replies.  If I gave you that impression, I again apologize.  You may very well be correct in your suppositions and I may be totally wrong.  Or it could be vice-verse.  I just don't think we should "write off" Unknown Worlds without investigating it further.

Btw, there are Copyright Catalog books of film copyright registrations that have been available to the public for decades,  There are also books called Film Superlists that not only list films with copyright dates and numbers but also have renewal dates and numbers.  I have copies of the later covering films released through 1959.  Some libraries carry them if you ever want to check them out.  They are rather pricey to buy.
Mostly they are used by film researchers or by film/video dealers to check on copyright status.  There have been a few cases of individuals using the copyright dates and numbers contained in the books in attempts to gain rights to films.  None have ever been successful as far as I know.

Best

Joe