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[narfstar]

Even if it is someone here I would not have a problem as long as they give credit to the site and scanners. I would ask that they leave my narfstar. I try to put it on a coupon or bottom of a page so it is not in the way. Just something to consider someone 50 years from now looking at a scan of mine and wondering who or what the heck a narfstar was

[phabox]

Yeah, thay may also wonder what the heck a 'Phabox' was while their at it  .

-Nigel

[boox909]

This discussion reminds me when the GM people asked to remove their scans form the site. Then our argument was that one cannot copyright a scan of a copyright-free book. Now it is the opposite: we can.

::crawling up to the top of the soapbox::

I still like my idea: "I think this can be nipped in the bud by someone setting up an ebay account that offers to auction a disc of one or two scans from GA-UK -- only the auction runs for as long as ebay allows and GA-UK is promoted with something along the lines of "Win this disc in this auction or get the comics for free from GoldenAgeComics.co.uk!!!"

If anything, the idea should be to steer traffic to GA-UK. No encumbering per page watermarks. No logic twisting justifications in an effort to create copyright where there is none. Simply put, my idea would be to direct traffic to GA-UK where the winner/buyer of a $2 dvd disc with a few intro titles (10 or less) can discover the abundance of titles available for free and spread the news to their associates.

I have no ill will for Scifer2 (who most assuredly is a GA-UK member and for all I know has contributed scans to the site), and s/he serves a valid function for some -- however, unless someone is willing to harness Ebay in order to direct traffic to GA-UK, complaining about what Scifer2 does is pretty much armchair sport.

I admit upfront that I have no desire to run such an effort. And I would feel uncomfortable in even doing so given that GA-UK is not my site...so to speak...but I do believe that my idea is sound and I would even contribute blank discs for such an effort.

In closing, I do not actually care that scifer2 is doing what they are doing. If I did not know about GA-UK and stumbled upon scifer2's offerings I would be funding their Xmas shopping this year. 

However, I do care that a well constructed alternative that promotes traffic and awareness of GA-UK has not been offered.

::falling off of soapbox -- ouch. ::

B.

[rez]

Yes, that is certainly another idea of merit.

[Geo (R.I.P.)]

Even if it is someone here I would not have a problem as long as they give credit to the site and scanners. I would ask that they leave my narfstar. I try to put it on a coupon or bottom of a page so it is not in the way. Just something to consider someone 50 years from now looking at a scan of mine and wondering who or what the heck a narfstar was

I agree that credit to those scanners who did the original scans should be left on them. Case in point: One set of my scans have been put on another site with the file size changed and my name tag removed  from the file. I'm not against sharing at all, that's why I do them, but please leave the scanners name and don't mess with the file other then maybe correcting the page order (as some are out of order when posted up) but not by repackage them by re-sizing them then basically claiming that you did them (by removing the original scanners name when posting them up). I'm sure this has happened to others here too.
As to selling them on a CD/DVD, I'd have no problem with that as long as the original scanner/editors/contributor are credited when known. That's my 2

[bchat]

boox909 -

I still like my idea: "I think this can be nipped in the bud by someone setting up an ebay account that offers to auction a disc of one or two scans from GA-UK -- only the auction runs for as long as ebay allows and GA-UK is promoted with something along the lines of "Win this disc in this auction or get the comics for free from GoldenAgeComics.co.uk!!!"

If anything, the idea should be to steer traffic to GA-UK. No encumbering per page watermarks. No logic twisting justifications in an effort to create copyright where there is none. Simply put, my idea would be to direct traffic to GA-UK where the winner/buyer of a $2 dvd disc with a few intro titles (10 or less) can discover the abundance of titles available for free and spread the news to their associates.

I would suggest anyone who attempted this idea to proceed with caution.   Setting-up a new eBay account isn't as easy as it was years ago (a credit card is required to sell or buy) and I doubt anyone here would want to risk having their own account suspended.  eBay has policies against having links or directing traffic to sites other than those related to eBay or for the sole purpose of further detailing the item being sold.  While eBay does not specifically state that linking to a site such as GAC is off-limits, they leave the door open to take action if they felt like it.  Keep in mind, as well, that if the disc doesn't sell, eBay still wants to be paid, and that "auction style listings" only last, at best, for 10 days (which also increases the fees to be paid).  To list something with the "Buy-It-Now" option, your feedback needs to be at a certain level, unless you sell the items through a "Store Listing", but then you're talking about $16 a month in store fees alone that needs to be covered.

If someone were to take your idea and move forward with it, I have some suggestions.  1st:  Don't sell dvds if you're only offering 10 titles, a cd should hold the files just as well and they cost less.  2nd: Refrain from mentioning GAC in the listing BUT have the cd set-up so the that the buyer is well aware of the site, either through a "Read Me" file or something that automatically pops-up every time a file is opened.  It will annoy the buyer but at the same time drive home the point that the books are available for free.  Maybe have it phrased to say something along the lines of "This file was uploaded to the goldenagecomics website by so-and-so and is available to download for free, along with 1000s of other copyright-free books."

And I know it's not the topic of debate here, but it was brought-up before about contacting eBay about listings that violate Copyrights.  This is eBay's policy regarding that:  "Only the intellectual property rights owner can report potentially infringing items or listings ... If you are not the intellectual property rights owner, you can still help by getting in touch with the rights owner and encouraging them to contact us".

[boox909]

Well Bchat...I think the solution is almost at hand -- or at least, flushed out on paper enough for someone to come along and do something productive with the ideas presented. 

B.

[JVJ]

I didn't really expect a dynamic link to the GAC site, bc,
and the ad would have to specify that what was being auctioned was a SERVICE that resulted in a PRODUCT. I don't see as much different from someone offering a "Any five DVDs from this list of PD movies".

Still, your knowledge of and experience with eBay is guaranteed to be much more extensive than mine, so I bow to that knowledge and retract my suggestions.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[John C]

Random thoughts:

- I wasn't trying to talk anybody out of using the watermarking system, and hope nobody took it that way.  However, keep in mind that the number of "hackers" that would be willing to remove a "tag" page and are willing to override any piracy protection whatsoever is pretty slim.  Generally, my experience is that people who recycle material are either lazy (in it for the money) or highly motivated (are trying to add substantial value), without much in between.

- Funny thing about those tag pages:  Technically, they're the only parts of your books not in the public domain, so anybody redistributing them is violating your rights if you didn't give them permission.  I'm not saying that you should pursue the matter, but do go easy on people who do remove them.  It could be a sign of respect, rather than the contrary.

- The value of being first is what, though not officially, Dover Books (among other companies, I'm sure) is all about.  They churn out new titles every month, a good number in the public domain.  I'm sure they know darn well that everything in that situation is going to end up on Project Gutenberg or someplace similar within a few years, so they stay ahead of the curve and keep their prices way down.

- I'm not an auction type, but BChat's warning should be taken to heart.  Setting up shop on the Internet isn't the free ride it once was, and the larger companies will suck every dollar from you they can in the name of preventing fraud.  A better idea might be to partner with an existing comic dealer, offering him a cut for helping out; this also has the advantage of making inroads with good dealers.

- Following up on the CD "read me" idea, this is pretty easy from a technical standpoint.  If you plug "autorun.inf" into your favorite search engine, one of the first few links will show you how to get a CD, DVD, USB drive, or even a hard drive to automatically launch a program or file; you can (and probably should) also set the icon and name that shows up in Explorer.  Or feel free to give me a holler if you need some help with it.

- The user selling the books probably isn't on the forum, though would obviously have an account.  As several people have noted, he always seems to release just before a key book that'd help him is released as well.  If he was reading along (and don't be ashamed to speak up if you are--you're not doing anything inappropriate, even if it is rubbing people the wrong way), he'd be releasing more complete sets.

- Which reminds me...I don't want to sound all high and mighty, especially since I don't yet have any scans, but this is not worth the posturing I see here.  Whatever the person's identity (and I actually have a guess or two), he's doing nothing illegal or even unethical.  Nobody here has any recourse because the material is in the public domain.  And even if you did, is anybody really going to take the guy to court for selling your copies of public domain material?  What's the damage you're looking to recoup?  In other words, take a deeeep breath, here.  If you wish ill on the guy, just remind yourself that he has a terrible business model and can't maintain a profitable level of sales for very long in this way.

- If he is cleaning up the scans better than people here, it might be worth springing for the DVDs and posting the contents here.  Turnabout is fair play, after all, and there's nothing wrong with "outsourcing" a little work when it's done well.  And doing so may draw the guy into the community when he realizes that we're borrowing back.

I think that's about all I've got.  I hope that helps...uhm...somebody with something.

[bchat]

JVJ -

I didn't really expect a dynamic link to the GAC site, bc,
and the ad would have to specify that what was being auctioned was a SERVICE that resulted in a PRODUCT. I don't see as much different from someone offering a "Any five DVDs from this list of PD movies".

Still, your knowledge of and experience with eBay is guaranteed to be much more extensive than mine, so I bow to that knowledge and retract my suggestions.

Yes, I do have a little experience buying & selling on eBay:  buying for over a decade and selling since 2005 (wow, time flies).  I also "play by the rules", even though I see countless other sellers working around the system and getting away with it.  That's fine for them, but it's not the kind of person I want to be.  With that said, "Any five DVDs from this list of PD movies" is (if I remember correctly because it's been a while since I read anything specifically regarding listings like that so I could be wrong if they changed their policy) a violation of eBay's listing policies.  Apparently nobody cares enough to ever report it, or if they do then eBay doesn't take the time to do anything about it.  The problem eBay has with listings like that is that they would prefer that someone had multiple listings for specific items rather than one listing for "optional items" because then eBay would be collecting fees for each individual listing, generating more money for them.  eBay doesn't come right out and say that, but if you can read between the lines it's as plain as day.  It's also why they switched to "PayPal only" payments, dropping checks and money orders from their payment options.  They claim it's to protect the consumer, but I suspect that it has more to do with their close association with PayPal (I believe they own PayPal), which on certain types of accounts collects a fee for receiving funds.  eBay gets the good PR for "protecting the buyer" while at the same time getting rid of those nasty checks and MO's that PayPal wasn't making money from.

I only pointed-out having a link within the listing as a precaution.  Someone might be able to get away with it, but if we're trying to be honorable and make people aware that they're paying high prices for books they can get for free, why take the chance that your listing gets knocked-off of eBay if one of their employees is in a bad mood and decides that Yes, you are breaking the rules as far as they feel like interpreting them that particular day.  It's really a matter of "hit or miss" in regards to rule violations.  I've pointed-out things to eBay and sometimes they take action, sometimes they don't.  Again, why take the chance?

jcolag -

- The user selling the books probably isn't on the forum, though would obviously have an account.  As several people have noted, he always seems to release just before a key book that'd help him is released as well.  If he was reading along (and don't be ashamed to speak up if you are--you're not doing anything inappropriate, even if it is rubbing people the wrong way), he'd be releasing more complete sets.

I've seen several people selling cds and dvds of these books on eBay, so I doubt it's just one person doing this.  More than likely, the guy you're referring to simply has bad timing when downloading the books, missing the files that would complete the set.

[paw broon]

These scans on ebay.  If we are talking about CDs with umpteen comics on each for viewing on a computer, then there were a lot for sale at the last Collectormania in Glasgow in December.  One of the DVD dealers was doing quite a trade in them, and I seem to recall there were some at a comic mart a couple of years back, again being sold behind the pitch of them being much cheaper than the original comics. Hope this is of some interest.

[rez]

They'll be no stopping it.

Best we can do is imprint 'goldenagecomics.co.uk' throughout the book in different panels and at least receive free press from the use of 'our' scans.

Thinking most sellers involved aren't going to see editing for the removal of the addy as worth the while.

[OtherEric]

I have no interest in imprinting anything in my scans; I want them as 'clean' as I can make them so others can use them.  The only use I have a problem with- and really, venting here was enough- is people selling the scans you can get free.  And honestly, I have MUCH less problem with them selling discs at cons.  Not sure why, anybody with a computer good enough to read the scans should be able to reach eBay.  But it doesn't rub me nearly as wrong.

I do appreciate the heads up that they are selling at cons, though.

[narfstar]

I stick my narfstar on an ad coupon in the books that I scan. I think it is kind of neat to think about it going all over the world. I would think putting OtherEric or Narfstar as the name and goldenagecomics.co.uk as the address on some ad page would be pretty cool. That page could always be left out but what the hey.

[bchat]

What if ...   We make a "fake ad page" that looked like something that would appear in a GA book, saying something like  "Get your Golden Age books for FREE at goldenagecomics.  Stop paying high prices for the same thing we already have.  Download key issues, first appearances and more, all in color for not-even-a-dime!  Registration is FREE!" ... or whatever works.  We could even ad "This comic scanned by ___" somewhere in there.  Then, it's a simple matter of adding that one page to our files without disrupting the original pages, somewhere between stories or at the end of the book so they don't seem out-of-place.  IF we assume that the people selling our scans don't really look at what they're taking, or at best just skim through the scans to see what stories are there, there's less chance that they would take-out a page that doesn't scream "I don't belong here!", such as any page with the scanner's name.

Obviously, the design of such a page would have to be subtle, so that even the most diligent of cd/dvd makers might miss it, yet interesting enough that any readers of these scans would take the time to read it.  We're a smart bunch.  It shouldn't be too hard to accomplish.  I have ideas but due to a current problem with my leg (nothing serious, just annoying), I can't sit at the computer for more than an hour or it starts to hurt like heck.

Now, I'm not suggesting that someone goes through all the current files and adds such a page to them, since that's kind of pointless for the people who have already taken those scans.  Maybe pick one or two key issues from a series or publisher already here and "updating them", which should be enough for any future "sellers".  But, it is something that could be added to new scans, which is what the current "sellers" would be taking to add to their cds/dvds.

[paw broon]

It's only just occurred to me that the CDs I saw at Glasgow included Marvel and D.C. stories.  For example Captain America strips.  Surely these can't be public domain.

[boox909]

It's only just occurred to me that the CDs I saw at Glasgow included Marvel and D.C. stories.  For example Captain America strips.  Surely these can't be public domain.

Those particular files would not be public domain in the U.S. and I doubt they would be so in Europe...although I do not think of Scotland as Europe...Scotland is beyond Europe and therefore more interesting. 

B.

[John C]

I do think the tag is the best idea.  It's optional for those scanners who want it.  It doesn't hurt anybody who's using the book commercially (whether they leave it in or remove it).  And it's free advertising (for this site and the scanner's, should that be desired; see Darkmark's scans as the start of a model, maybe) where it's not removed.

I'd recommend a notice along the lines of (but not the same as, of course) Creative Commons licenses, where you indicate that the book is in the public domain, but please leave the tag in if the reader is planning to redistribute the book.  Or you can go the other direction, like Project Gutenberg, and insist that, if the book is altered in any way, that the tag be removed so that you can't be blamed for someone else's foul-up.

Again, I strongly suspect that anybody who's selling these without waiting for a complete run is NOT checking the books or carefully removing evidence that they didn't physically scan the books.  That would be too much work for no profit, which is almost always the name of the public domain game.  In other words, if you feel like you're being used, you might as well make use of what work is being done by the third party.

And I really wouldn't bother with watermarking.  The goal of scanning public domain material is to make it available, not to hoard it or punish people for using it.  It's like the old joke about teaching the pig to sing:  It's too much work and it annoys the pig.

[LOHAD]

A very interesting discussion. As someone who is very active on Backstreets.com, where a LOT of Brucelegging of concerts takes place (and many discussions similar in nature to this one result) let me toss my $.02 into the ring:

---I think watermarking each page of a scan is a bad idea, but I don't see anything wrong with adding a "signature page" from the scanner that includes a GA-UK plug in it. This spreads the word about GA-UK, and over time the reputation of the site (and the individual scanners) for seeding quality scans will grow. However: The signature page should ALWAYS be the last page of the scan; I've seen plenty of scans where you open the book in Comic Reader, and the scanner's sig page comes up as the front cover. I find that obnoxious.

---I think assembling data discs (CD or DVD) of GA-UK scans and distributing over eBay to help fund the site is a superb idea. I originally discovered the world of digital comics through an eBay data DVD (not Golden Age; I won't say what it was, though). That led me to the comics newsgroups and before long I wound up here. Anyway, the point is: A series of GA-UK discs would be pretty sweet, maybe set up as "The Golden 100 Series" -- 100 pre-code horror books, 100 pre-code romance, 100 books with jungle women, 100 books with crush-the-nazis covers, 100 books with Steve Ditko art, 100 Plastic Man books, etc. -- (might every collection need to be genre-related, or could artist and character collections be created without getting anyone's copyright shorts in a bunch?) I have a burner and I often create cover art for my Brucelegs; I anticipate creating these sorts of discs (and cover art) for myself before long as my GA-UK collection grows; I'm happy to volunteer my services to assist in making this happen (I have a 100% positive eBay rating; I've been selling stuff there for years). Most sellers on eBay sell scans on a disc in a paper sleeve; creating snappy cover art and selling them in a plastic DVD case with art (and including viewing software in the disc) would elevate the GA-UK discs on eBay above the rest (making them the GA equivalent of Crystal Cat, for any Bruceleg fans out there!)

[narfstar]

I think selling discs for the site is a good idea and would be willing to help. I think we can start by putting new scans on disc before we put them onsite. They would be available no where else. I know that makes us wait onsite but I think the revenue would be worth the wait. Any extra money beyond site expense can go to buying some books to scan then putting them back on ebay. I spend a lot of my own money now to buy books just to scan and post. We could accumulate some money to buy some books beyond my expenses. We can include on ebay and on the discs that they are available for free here.

[JonTheScanner]

I really disagree narfstar.  If the original distribution is via disk, someone is going to be spending a lot of time burning and mailing disks (if the scan gets widely distributed).  A CD will easily hold 20 comics generally many more.  Are the CDs to be standardized (the next 20-30 scans go on one CD), or do you propose to individualize them to a purchaser.  Who's going to keep track if the scan that I upload is a new scan or one that GAUK doesn't have but has been floating around for several years so should not be on the CD of new scans.  I think all that is time better spent elsewhere. 

Most eligible scans from ABPC get uploaded here quickly and most scans first put here go there or on other hubs equally quickly.

I don't mind distributing GAUK scans for cost + something, but I do not want to see that be the primary or even initial method.

[narfstar]

I am not married to the idea. Just a thought to maybe produce some revenue and prevent someone from jumping the gun on us.

[JVJ]

Like any business model that relies on the ignorance of the customer, DVD sales of free scans are going to diminish all by themselves as people catch on to the existence of GACUK and other sites. I suggest simply waiting them out. I'll even help their demise by putting a link on my website. Everyone else with a site or blog should do the same thing. The more links we have to GAC the higher it'll rise in Google searches.

I vote for patience as the most potent weapon we can bring to bear.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[phabox]

As ever Jim speaks with great wisdom and I also think thats the way forward although CD collections are still a nice idea for anyone stuck with a dial up connection.

-Nigel

[bchat]

I'll even help their demise by putting a link on my website. Everyone else with a site or blog should do the same thing. The more links we have to GAC the higher it'll rise in Google searches.

I've had a link to this site on my blog almost since Day One and explained in one blog entry what people can expect when they get here.  When I post a story to my blog from a book I own (which is about once a month or so), I again mention this site just in case I have a "new reader".  I have no clue if my blog has given this site more exposure, but I feel it's important for people to know that they don't have to pay to read stories that they can get for free.