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CENTAUR - seeking

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topic icon Author Topic: CENTAUR - seeking  (Read 8853 times)

Guardian7

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CENTAUR - seeking
« on: November 28, 2009, 02:02:58 PM »

It dawned on me that I never posted a list of what I am looking for (Though I guess many of you already know by the post title or from my previous posts)
Anyhow... here is my "Wanted Comics"

Any status on the WHAM COMICS #2 that you guys have?

I would love to see DETECTIVE EYE #1 & 2 (Particularly #2)

SUPER SPY #2 would be very cool to have.

The MASKED MARVEL run #1-3 (Particularly #2)

AMAZING ADVENTURE FUNNIES #1-2

FANTOMAN # 2-3 (I wouldn't mind getting a whole version of #4 as I am missing the end of the story to the Red Blaze)

AMAZING MAN #7 (I have it, but I am missing the final two pages of the story DINOSAUR FOREST)

Any of AMAZING MYSTERY FUNNIES or KEEN DETECTIVE FUNNIES

FUNNY PICTURE STORIES #4 (or any of them)

ARROW #2

COMIC PAGES vol 1 #1-7/vol 2 #1 - (Particularly interested in #3, 5-6)

FUNNY PAGES vol 1 #7 & 11 (Particularly #11)
FUNNY PAGES vol 2 #10-12 + vol 3-4 #all

DETECTIVE PICTURE STORIES #2 (Particularly because of the character Master Mind)

Dr. Mystic the Occult Detective appeared in a story (one so far as I can tell) in Funny Pages vol1 #1... does anyone know if this story was ever finished in his Dr. Occult appearences elsewhere (Battling with the villain Koth, with help from his friend Zator)? I guess it would be just after May, 1936 which was the publishing date of FP#1.

Well that is that.
I still hope to get to MSU someday (with some cash to either download or scan copies of the comics they have there).

Well that is it for my list.
Thanks

G7






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John C

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2009, 02:29:48 PM »


Dr. Mystic the Occult Detective appeared in a story (one so far as I can tell) in Funny Pages vol1 #1... does anyone know if this story was ever finished in his Dr. Occult appearences elsewhere (Battling with the villain Koth, with help from his friend Zator)? I guess it would be just after May, 1936 which was the publishing date of FP#1.


As I understand it, that strip not only continues, but is the kickoff to "the" Doctor Occult story that people talk about, where he wears the red-and-blue costume and fights his way through that dreamscape.
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bchat

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2009, 02:54:07 PM »

Yes, the Dr Mystic story  in "The Comics Magazine # 1" is continued in National/DC's "More Fun Comics v2 n2" (aka #14).

Fantoman # 2 is already on the site.
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Guardian7

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2009, 07:28:27 PM »

Good to know about the Dr. Mystic... was he also called Dr. Mystic in that story or was he refered to over there as simply "Dr. Occult"?

Yeah Bchat... I know about Fantoman #2... that was a typo on my part (I was thinking about #3 and the rest of #4 - dunno why I did that. LOL).

Thanks guys.
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John C

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2009, 08:41:06 PM »

Dr. Occult was never named anything but, except for that one Centaur piece.  It makes me wonder about the contract involved, since most other creators didn't really worry about "shopping around" a strip depending on business conditions.  I mean, was Nicholson-Wheeler insufficiently rigid to bother copyrighting his books but quick enough to trademark the character names?  Did the contract specifically say that National Allied owned Dr. Occult?

No, we won't ever find out, but it seems odd, now that you bring it up.
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JVJ

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2009, 09:35:03 PM »


Dr. Occult was never named anything but, except for that one Centaur piece.  It makes me wonder about the contract involved, since most other creators didn't really worry about "shopping around" a strip depending on business conditions.  I mean, was Nicholson-Wheeler insufficiently rigid to bother copyrighting his books but quick enough to trademark the character names?  Did the contract specifically say that National Allied owned Dr. Occult?

No, we won't ever find out, but it seems odd, now that you bring it up.


Read the Wheeler-Nicholson issues of Alter Ego to get a better grasp of the situation, John. They never directly deal with that oddity, but they do have some speculations...

(|:{>
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comicsnorth

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2009, 09:40:06 PM »

There seem to be conflicting stories as to just how those two pages (among the other National inventory that showed up there) wound up in Comics Magazine as it is.  Of course, I also find it interesting that the whole "Koth & the Seven" arc that began there features an entirely different take on Doc than the stories that came before or after it, and Doc didn't seem to ever manifest those kind of powers (with or without tights) anywhere else, nor did he ever seem to mention The Seven again until 1980s creators decided to name his amulet (consisting of 4 red and 4 black triangles in a circle) the Sign of the Seven.  Why the Sign of the Seven would feature 8 triangles is yet another mystery....

-Comicsnorth
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bchat

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2009, 10:15:20 PM »


Dr. Occult was never named anything but, except for that one Centaur piece.  It makes me wonder about the contract involved, since most other creators didn't really worry about "shopping around" a strip depending on business conditions.  I mean, was Nicholson-Wheeler insufficiently rigid to bother copyrighting his books but quick enough to trademark the character names?  Did the contract specifically say that National Allied owned Dr. Occult?


One rumor I've heard (and I'm sure most others have heard it, too) is that the "Dr Mystic" pages were given to Mahon & Cook in place of money that "The Major" owed them.  While it may be hard to prove why or how M&C ended-up with the pages, this particular rumor seems plausable to me since The Major ended-up losing control of National due to financial troubles. 

It could very well be that The Major had no intentions of publishing the entire story at all, since from May (the same month Dr Mystic appears in The Comics Magazine) to September, More Fun Comics had "The Metheuselah Murders" followed by the three part "Werewolf" story, and gave M&C the "Dr Mystic" pages figuring that since readers of The Comics Magazine weren't ever going to see the rest of the story, in that book at least, it would hurt M&C's reputation ... which might actually explain the change in the title later-on to "The Funny Pages", now that I think about it.
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JVJ

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2009, 11:03:55 PM »

Again, guys,
If you are at ALL interested in this topic, you MUST read Alter Ego #88 and then continue the discussion afterward. You'll have a much different take on the subject and a hell of lot more facts.

(|:{>
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bchat

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 12:17:38 AM »


Again, guys,
If you are at ALL interested in this topic, you MUST read Alter Ego #88 and then continue the discussion afterward. You'll have a much different take on the subject and a hell of lot more facts.

(|:{>


Quite honestly, I'm not interested in spending $7 bucks for one article that may or may not shed new light on the early history of what's popularly called "Centaur Comics".  I bought the two issues of Alter-Ego (85 & 87) in which they ran info on the company and was not only sorely disappointed to not read anything new or enlightening, but to find more than a few errors, as well.  At the end of the day, I felt like I wasted $14 to read nothing, and don't fell like doing that again.
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JVJ

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 01:45:04 AM »



Quite honestly, I'm not interested in spending $7 bucks for one article that may or may not shed new light on the early history of what's popularly called "Centaur Comics".  I bought the two issues of Alter-Ego (85 & 87) in which they ran info on the company and was not only sorely disappointed to not read anything new or enlightening, but to find more than a few errors, as well.  At the end of the day, I felt like I wasted $14 to read nothing, and don't fell like doing that again.

I would not recommend the Centaur issues, bchat. I didn't learn anything new, either. I WOULD recommend #88. FWIW.

(|:{>
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OtherEric

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 02:13:23 AM »

I'm normally happy buying Alter Ego on a regular basis; but the Centaur articles were rather underwhelming.  The Nicholson issue, by contrast, is really impressive.
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comicsnorth

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 03:56:53 PM »

I completely agree about the Nicholson issue, which cast a different light on those pre-Superman days of the comic book business.

Getting back to the original point of this topic, along with the much-demanded Wham Comics #2, and the rest of the Red Blaze story from Fantoman, I'd love to see Amazing Mystery Funnies v2 #4-5, with the Sand Hog & Centaur's Ghost Rider, two characters I'm very curious about, and the rest of the Tippy Taylor/Fantasy Isle stories from AMF, since if I recall correctly, only the first chapter is available here at the moment.

-comicsnorth
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bchat

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 04:25:14 PM »

I'ld like to see Keen Detective Funnies 24 updated to include pages 2 & 3 of the Air Man story, along with the text story of Dr Darkness.
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Guardian7

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2009, 07:11:20 PM »

Well hopefully one day I will have all of the Hero or Adventure related stories from Centaur.
For the most part I consider Many of the earlier issues of Centaur Comics to be kind of a waste. Two page stories with the rest ususlly being lame humor (at its worst incredibly rascist). I prefer the later stuff with more the Detectives, heroes, adventurers ect.

Anyhow. If anyone has a heads up on any of those comics I mentioned, would be cool to know what the status of them might be.

Thanks for the heads up on the Dr. Mystic/Dr. Occult thing. At least now I know where to seek more info on him.
Was talking with Comicsnorth the other day on the phone and he explained a lot of Dr. M/O and his similarities to Amazing Man. Kinda cool.

Anyhow. Thanks everyone.
G7
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Yoc

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2009, 12:21:24 AM »

Any Centaur that JVJ owns has been sent out to someone else for another project.
Once he gets them back I expect one of the scanners will be jumping on them.
You can check what books he has on his list in the Wanted Comics area.

-Yoc
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JVJ

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2009, 12:40:58 AM »


Any Centaur that JVJ owns has been sent out to someone else for another project.
Once he gets them back I expect one of the scanners will be jumping on them.
You can check what books he has on his list in the Wanted Comics area.

-Yoc

Just got word that they are on their way back, guys. Who's up for them?

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Yoc

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2009, 02:48:12 AM »

Excellent!
I'm thinking there'll be a couple scanners looking to work on these.
:)
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Ed Love

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 11:33:38 PM »

I would be interested in knowing what errors there were in the Alter Ego articles as I know someone researching the company and would like to warn him in case he's using any of that as reference.
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Yoc

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2009, 04:50:44 AM »

I think you'd need to be more specific Ed.
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Ed Love

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 02:56:50 PM »

I don't know how I could be. I am as specific as the original posts saying there were errors. I am basically asking for them to be more specific.

I know with Centaur there's a lot of misinformation out there, especially concerning the characters. Most of this comes from that most people used Geoffrey Tolle's website as a resource, it was the most complete with information concerning the Centaur characters. Too complete as it turns out, as he made up a lot of information filling in the gaps of story record, especially with characters' names and real names. Last time I checked the GCD still lists Minimidget's real name as Jack Rhodes whereas the comics never gave him a real name much less indicated that he was the one-shot adventurer that appeared in the same comic that Minimidget debuted in. Or how many places call the Iron Skull an android when he was a cyborg.
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Yoc

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 08:05:21 PM »

Sorry Ed, I went back and now understand your post.
That was bchat's post on the errors.  I haven't read any of the Alter-Ego's in questions, sorry.

-Yoc
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bchat

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2009, 08:21:12 PM »

Ed - Give me a day or two to go back over the Alter Ego article (I've got something I have to get done before Christmas).  The errors (which I don't know off the top of my head ... and that should give you an idea of what I thought about the article) seemed pretty obvious to anyone really into the "Centaur" comics.  If I remember correctly, they weren't something I viewed as trivial but came across as if the author was just rehashing information he read in other magazines and/or books.
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bchat

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2009, 12:28:28 AM »

Has it been "a day or two" already?  Actually, the kids took a nap so I had some free time, so I figured I'ld get this out of the way.

Regarding Geoffrey Tolle's website:  I won't knock the guy for trying.  Yeah, there's ommissions & errors and all that, but it's a "fan site", so I took that information with a grain of salt when I came acrossed it years ago.  If nothing else (and this is how I feel about Wikipedia, too), it's a nice place to start when trying to learn more about these characters, and that's all it should be until someone reads the stories themselves.

And now ...

  There was more than just facts that bothered me about the two-part article that ran in Alter Ego.  Right off the bat, the author, who proclaims himself to be a "longtime comics researcher", takes all of one paragraph to belittle hsi chosen subject.  Why invest the time into something if you have such a low opinion of it?  The article is riddled, in my opinion, with back-handed comments aimed at making the comics seem inferior to what other publishers produced during that period of time.  The impression I get from the author is that he considers the contents of any given issue "weak" if Jack Cole, Will Eisner, BIll Everett or any of the other "big-name artists" didn't contribute more than a few pages, or if superheroes didn't make-up the bulk of material of the comic book.
  Another thing that bugged me about the article was the constant use of "actual" issue numbers.  If something was released as "volume 2 number 3", then THAT is the issue number, that's what collectors are looking for when they want to purchase the books, not whatever issue number the author feels like assigning it.  He seemed incredibly hung-up on the fact that some books debuted with issue numbers other than "1", and constantly wondered why no explanation was ever given to the readers (because no one cared?).  I know it's me just being nit-picky, but it got annoying to see after a while.

What follows are the "errors" I came across and my thoughts.  Now, I might be wrong about something, so if somebody wants to correct me and provide the correct & accurate information, please do so.  This isn't about me or the author of the AE article, it's about making sure that fans of the "Centaur" books have some decent information for a change.  There were a few other things I didn't agree with in the article, but I feel that it's just me being a little too nit-picky and not really important enough to mention.

... ""Dr Occult appeared in FPS (Funny Picture Stories ... something the author corrected in the 2nd part of the article) vol 1 # 1, with his name changed in mid-continuity to "Dr Mystic.  The next month, Doc was back home in More Fun Comics".
  This implies that the "Dr Mystic" story in Comics Magazine # 1 (May 1936) was a side-step in the publication of National's "Dr Occult" series ... that is to say that the Dr Mystic/Occult stories could have been read in the order in which they were published.  The fact is that National continued publishing Dr Occult stories even though "Dr Mystic" appears in "CM # 1" for the first part of a story that isn't continued until October. In May 1936, Dr Occult appeared in MFC 10, "The Metheuselah Murders". In July-September 1936, Dr Occult appears in MFC 11-13, "The Werewolf Pt 1-3".  Dr Occult appears in More Fun Comics v2 n2 (aka # 14 - October 1936) in the second part of the story begun in "The Comics Magazine # 1".

... "Jack Cole's Mantoka ... makes magic only in this (issue 34 of Funny Pages) and in # 37"
  What about Funny Pages v4 n1?  And then ...
...  "Martin Filchock's The Owl makes his one and only appearance here" (again apparently referring to issue 34 of FP).
  The actual issue is FP v1 n4.

... "KDF (Keen Detective Funnies) # 16 introduces The Eye ... ".
  The actual issue number is v2 n12.  Nit-picking?  Yeah, but it's a $7 publication that has editors, so their standards should be a lot higher than what you'ld expect from someone on the internet.

A Biggie! ... "AMF (Amazing Mystery Funnies) # 24 has, on the inside back cover, an ad featuring black-&-white images of covers to Ace Comics, Sure Fire and Super-Mystery.  It is now known that Hardie was one of the partners in ownership of the Ace company".
  Really?  Is that how we establish ownership now?  Ads?  I do know that E.L. Angel, who was part-owner of Centaur at one point, was also a part-owner of Ace's titles, but "Angel" isn't "Hardie" and seeing ads in one publisher's books isn't proof that they own another publisher's books.  How about showing readers a Statement of Ownership as proof?  Is this how a "longtime comics researcher" does things?

... "With # 2, Amazing Adventure Funnies became Fantoman, featuring Gustavson stories starring the mysterious hero, though every issue also contained Cole's Little Dynamite, Air-Sub D-X, The Arrow, and text illustrations by Everett".
  I happen to have an issue of Fantoman (identified by the seller as being issue 4, which I scanned & uploaded to the main site ... which has been downloaded over 1200 times, believe it or not).  It's missing the first two wraps (four pages off the front & another four off the back), but it's clear that the issue DOES NOT include Little Dynamite, Air-Sub D-X or The Arrow (I wish it did include The Arrow).  The text story, "Dr Darkness", is by Ray Gill and the illustration is signed "R.".  To my untrained eyes, it looks nothing like how Everett drew.

... "... But # 3 (of The Arrow) features one of our favorite bizarre characters. ... Naturally, The Rainbow saves his girlfriend ...".
  For something that's apparently one of the author's favorite characters, he sure didn't pay attention to the story very well.  The dark-haired girl Rainbow saves is not his girlfriend (who is blonde), but an unnamed girl he just happened to save from Black Rufus.

... The Blue Lady pages reproduced in part two of the article states that they are both from Amazing-Man Comics # 26, and show Blue Lady's origin.  They're NOT from the same issue.  Her origin (the page on the left for those reading along at home) was in issue # 24, while the other page (on the right) is from the story in Amazing-Man Comics # 26.  The author continues the error ("origin in # 26") in the main part of the article.  In reference to the Blue Lady tale in 26, he states "She imbibes something called Blue Mist, enabling her to grow extremely tall and strong ...".  What?!  "Grow extremely tall"?  What story was he looking at when he wrote that line? 

The author decides to make some pretty big leaps in logic towards the end of the article, yet provides no proof of those claims ...

... "(Chicago Mail Order Comics) ... Leftover Centaur heroes including The Invisible Terror, Filchock's Super Ann and Plymo the Rubber Man appear in Hardie's last book." 
... and  ... "Hardie ... was constantly begging his readers to buy, read and tell others about his books.  He had numerous contests offering free issues ..."
... and ... "In his 1970s volume The Golden Age of Comic Books, Richard O'Brien says 'The Centaur books suffered from poor distribution ..."
  The "Super Ann" that appeared in CMO wasn't the same character as the one that appeared in the Mighty Man stories (most hardcore "Centaur" fans could tell you that), nor was the CMO Super Ann story drawn by Martin Filchock.  As with the Rainbow & Blue Lady comments, I wonder if this "longtime researcher" even bothered to READ any of the stories.
  The last two comments deal with the "demise" of the comic line.  Why is holding a contest automatically viewed as an indication that the books are selling poorly?  Has the author never heard of the concept of "marketing"?  It's not like Hardie could advertise in Wizard Magazine or pay USA Today to have links from their website to his website, so what other options did he have left to boost sales?  And why is the idea of trying to boost sales, through contests or free give-aways, viewed as a bad thing?  Yes, such tactics could be viewed as a result of poor sales, but they could also be an indication that the owners of the books weren't going to settle for "good enough".
  It irks me to no end that the only "evidence" of poor sales & bad distribution that I've ever seen are simply comments from a few books that say the "Centaur" books sold poorly.  I'm not saying that the statements are flat-out wrong, but where's the proof?  Where is that information coming from?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 01:42:19 AM by bchat »
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narfstar

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Re: CENTAUR - seeking
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2009, 01:02:36 AM »

I did not send the issue number corrections but sent everything else to Roy Thomas to add the corrections to AE
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