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Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?

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topic icon Author Topic: Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?  (Read 567 times)

Andrew999

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Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?
« on: May 02, 2020, 06:37:02 AM »

I've been following with a sense of detachment the online debate over whether 1) branding orcs as evil is racist and 2) Fantasy is human-centric

Essentially, the arguments in favour of that view use Cultivation Theory to suggest that if you create in teens a reflex emotion that says its okay to hate a whole race/species because of what they are, not who they are (like orcs, vampires, zombies, Martians), that reflex may filter into real life attitudes (ie some teens would develop racist ideas - not all, of course, because it depends WHO they are, not what they are - to suggest all teens will filter racist ideas about 'the other' would itself be racist (or teenist!))

So, an infected teen (for want of a better phrase) might instinctively hate Chinese people in the same way that they know its okay to hate orcs.

The alternate view is basically, 'This is hogwash - teens aren't stupid - they know the difference between fantasy and reality, they know the difference between vampires and, let's say, Scots, and they aren't likely to get them mixed up'

Yet to say that's true of all teens - isn't that a teeny bit teenist in itself?

What do you think?

On the second point, is fantasy too human-centric? Can anyone think of a serious story/comic book/novel in which the daily trials and tribulations of an orc (or whatever) presents them in a good light - with maybe the humans en masse seen as disgusting, ugly, evil and uncompromising?

(This comment has carefully avoided mentioning Cornish people (such as myself) as all Cornish people are clearly kind, upstanding, intelligent and rational people against whose virtues all others should be pleased to be measured)
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Captain Audio

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Re: Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2020, 11:24:50 AM »

Years ago I ran across a comic article on the Onion about how Orcs were discriminated against by modern society. It was hilarious.
If I get your drift I'd have to say that "Star Trek" is the most racist of all sci fi/ fantasy series.

Back to the Orcs, they were not a part of the human race at all, being no more human than a lion or any other predatory creature.
Racism is prejudice towards another race of humans. Humans all have the same brain structure and vary very little in outwards appearances. As early works on law and religion pointed out all races have the same basic social structures and wants and needs. There's always common ground to be found.
There's no such common ground to be found with non human creatures that prey on humans.
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paw broon

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Re: Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2020, 01:35:02 PM »

Well, I've missed something here.  This is all new to me.  Orcs are the big beasties from Harry Potter?  Nasty pieces of work then. 
But hating them is racist?  All very disturbed imo.  I can understand hatred towards a Komodo Dragon if you'd been chased and savaged by one, but that's not racism. Actually, given the poisonous saliva in a KD's mouth, you wouldn' survive long.  If Orcs are the worst, I'm not sure where that places other fictional horrors.   Daleks for instance. Racism is what you find in early Bulldog Drummond stories, particularly, The Black Gang.  Many readers nowadays find John Buchan racist.  At the time he was writing however, his views were acceptable. 
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Robb_K

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Re: Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2020, 09:50:39 PM »


Years ago I ran across a comic article on the Onion about how Orcs were discriminated against by modern society. It was hilarious.
If I get your drift I'd have to say that "Star Trek" is the most racist of all sci fi/ fantasy series.

Back to the Orcs, they were not a part of the human race at all, being no more human than a lion or any other predatory creature.
Racism is prejudice towards another race of humans. Humans all have the same brain structure and vary very little in outwards appearances. As early works on law and religion pointed out all races have the same basic social structures and wants and needs. There's always common ground to be found.
There's no such common ground to be found with non human creatures that prey on humans.


Races in humanity is a ridiculous concept.  You mentioned that humans vary very little in outward appearance.  They vary much, much less in inward appearance and in their constituency (how they are made).  Humans are one of the most highly inbred species, because their various genetic lineages were truncated drastically around 70,000 to 80,000 years ago, when the human population shrunk down to about 10,000, a bottleneck number so low that more species than not can't recover from the downslide, and die out completely to extinction.  In addition, ALL other genetic lineages that did exist when they reached the low point (maybe 10-15 different ones) have died out.  So, ALL humans today descend from one man and one woman, and, thus, are more closely related by a factor of 10, than chimpanzees are to each other. 

An Inuit is more closely related genetically to a pygmy in Botswana, a member of an isolated Papuan tribal member in the mountains of New Guinea, A Basque, or an Easter Islander, than a Chimpanzee in The Congo Republic is to a member of a chimpanzee from a group 35 miles from his own's territory.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2020, 03:22:01 AM »

The first place to start is, 'Who is making the judgement, and from what vantage point?'
Most definitions of Racism use a variation of
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a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.
Note :- Human traits. So, no, denigating Orcs is not racism. I associate Orcs with Lord of the Rings rather than Potter. Our attitude to them is dictated by their place in the narrative. If we say that denigating a specific group of characters whose behaviour is defined as villainous is racist, then that is the end of storytelling.   
As this article points out the word is now used so many different ways as a general put-down, it is essentially meaningless.
https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-racism-2834955
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What is racism, really? The word is thrown around all the time today by people of color and whites alike. Use of the term racism has become so popular that it
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Robb_K

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Re: Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2020, 07:28:18 AM »


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In addition, ALL other genetic lineages that did exist when they reached the low point (maybe 10-15 different ones) have died out.  So, ALL humans today descend from one man and one woman, and, thus, are more closely related by a factor of 10, than chimpanzees are to each other.   

Basically correct but - current DNA discoveries indicate that modern humans have DNA from earlier humanoid types. I think there are currently three discovered, [I expect more in the future] but primarily Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA. This means - what happened to the Neanderthals? We interbred with them. If we can interbreed with a species, that species is essentially human.
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/dtcgenetictesting/neanderthaldna
So, if I say to you, 'You Neanderthal', that's more of a truth than a racial insult! If you just study the history of people movements over the last 2000 years in Europe, it becomes clear, that while you can have strong cultural ties and heritage, no-one with a European Background can possibly be racially pure. Whatever that is supposed to mean.


Yes, I know about the Homo Sapiens Sapiens interbreeding with Neanderthals and Denisovans, - and those figures are already accounted for in my figures.  Even WITH 1 to 2 % Neanderthal  and 1 % Denisovan DNA in modern Humans, they still are unbelievably closely related to ALL other living humans.

All HUMANS today, are closely related, and so mixed from all different markers shared by different "breeding groups" that trying to connect them into specific different breeding groups (calling those 'races') is impossible. 

The point made by The OP, that children who watch fantasy TV, films, and video games in which the enemies of Humans are depicted as "evil", heartless, and having no empathy, could transfer the negative attitudes about sentient beings different from them gained from those media entertainment vehicles could instill in them negative attitudes towards Humans from other places, speaking different languages, and having different values and customs is probably true to some extent, in my estimation.  I think that most children make a distinction between fantasy and real life, and wouldn't hate different foreigners, unless their parents have those prejudiced attitudes, and tell the children that those foreigners are "like vampires, zombies, and orcs, they wouldn't transfer those feelings to particular groups of people.  However, there are probably a few children whose relationship to The World is not so realistic, who might get their "hatred" they have been learning from their parents, reinforced by transferring those feelings from the Human peoples hated by their parents (or their teachers-as in Nazi Germany), or the "Slave States" in USA, to the characters of fantasy, and then, later (a higher-scale version) to the groups of people they learned from their parents, are "subhuman".

The Early Christians claimed The Jews were evil (spawn of The Devil), and brought plague to them.  Medieval Christians claimed The Jews were poisoning their water wells, giving them plague, and kidnapping their children to kill them and drink their blood.  Hitler and his Nazi propagandists told their people that The Jews were like rats that bring plague.  Children who also heard such ideas from their parents, had them reinforced by teachers and scout and youth club leaders, who they respected.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 08:05:43 AM by Robb_K »
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2020, 12:20:35 AM »

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The point ....... that children who watch fantasy TV, films, and video games [and read books or comics]  ........ could transfer negative attitudes ...... is probably true to some extent, in my estimation.   

Absolutely. There's not question in my mind that story-telling in media inculcates [ Inculcate definition - to teach and impress by frequent repetitions or admonitions.] values and attitudes. But transference of positive attitudes - if they are propagandistic- is just as potentially dangerous.
There's no question in my mind that [for example] Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who inculcates values and attitudes.
   
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foreigners are "like vampires, zombies, and orcs, 
I hadn't considered Vampires and Zombies in this context, so thank you. I avoid both Vampire fiction and Zombie fiction, so am cut off from a large amount of current mulit-media fiction. But I'm fascinated.
Currently Zombies are the villains of choice in many TV shows, Video Games, Books and comics.
Suggestion - In these PC times you can't pinpoint any 'real' political group or nationality as villains, [Except NAZI's]  so Zombies are a fictional substitution for Racial Vilification.
Not so Vampires, who are now more of a substitute identity for for the experiences of  puberty and feeling alienated from the World around them. Hence Goth Culture. And the prevalence of Vampires in fiction aimed at teenagers. [Twilight, The current Vampireation [my word!] of the Archie/Riverdale universe.]
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"hatred" they have been learning from their parents, reinforced by transferring those feelings from the Human peoples hated by their parents (or their teachers 

Never mind the middle ages, Antisemitism is currently on the rise worldwide. In the middle east there are children's shows on TV that teach Arab children that Jews are less than human.
But how about some good news?
https://sites.google.com/site/hugomercier/not-born-yesterday
Hugo Mercier is a research scientist at the CNRS (Institut Jean Nicod, Paris), where he  with the Evolution and Social Cognition team and the Collective Intelligence team.

His  work has focused on two main topics:

The function and workings of reasoning (see The Enigma of Reason).[Book]

How we evaluate communicated information (see Not Born Yesterday).[Book]
Quote
Not Born Yesterday explains how we decide who we can trust and what we should believe―and argues that we're pretty good at making these decisions. In this lively and provocative book, Hugo Mercier demonstrates how virtually all attempts at mass persuasion―whether by religious leaders, politicians, or advertisers―fail miserably. Drawing on recent findings from political science and other fields ranging from history to anthropology, Mercier shows that the narrative of widespread gullibility, in which a credulous public is easily misled by demagogues and charlatans, is simply wrong.
 

Lets hope he is correct   
       
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Robb_K

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Re: Is it Racist to Hate Orcs, Vampires and the Walking Dead?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2020, 07:48:18 AM »


Quote
The point ....... that children who watch fantasy TV, films, and video games [and read books or comics]  ........ could transfer negative attitudes ...... is probably true to some extent, in my estimation.   

Absolutely. There's not question in my mind that story-telling in media inculcates [ Inculcate definition - to teach and impress by frequent repetitions or admonitions.] values and attitudes. But transference of positive attitudes - if they are propagandistic- is just as potentially dangerous.
There's no question in my mind that [for example] Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who inculcates values and attitudes.
   
Quote
foreigners are "like vampires, zombies, and orcs, 
I hadn't considered Vampires and Zombies in this context, so thank you. I avoid both Vampire fiction and Zombie fiction, so am cut off from a large amount of current mulit-media fiction. But I'm fascinated.
Currently Zombies are the villains of choice in many TV shows, Video Games, Books and comics.
Suggestion - In these PC times you can't pinpoint any 'real' political group or nationality as villains, [Except NAZI's]  so Zombies are a fictional substitution for Racial Vilification.
Not so Vampires, who are now more of a substitute identity for for the experiences of  puberty and feeling alienated from the World around them. Hence Goth Culture. And the prevalence of Vampires in fiction aimed at teenagers. [Twilight, The current Vampireation [my word!] of the Archie/Riverdale universe.]
Quote
"hatred" they have been learning from their parents, reinforced by transferring those feelings from the Human peoples hated by their parents (or their teachers 

Never mind the middle ages, Antisemitism is currently on the rise worldwide. In the middle east there are children's shows on TV that teach Arab children that Jews are less than human.
But how about some good news?
https://sites.google.com/site/hugomercier/not-born-yesterday
Hugo Mercier is a research scientist at the CNRS (Institut Jean Nicod, Paris), where he  with the Evolution and Social Cognition team and the Collective Intelligence team.

His  work has focused on two main topics:

The function and workings of reasoning (see The Enigma of Reason).[Book]

How we evaluate communicated information (see Not Born Yesterday).[Book]
Quote
Not Born Yesterday explains how we decide who we can trust and what we should believe―and argues that we're pretty good at making these decisions. In this lively and provocative book, Hugo Mercier demonstrates how virtually all attempts at mass persuasion―whether by religious leaders, politicians, or advertisers―fail miserably. Drawing on recent findings from political science and other fields ranging from history to anthropology, Mercier shows that the narrative of widespread gullibility, in which a credulous public is easily misled by demagogues and charlatans, is simply wrong.
 

Lets hope he is correct    


I wish he were.  But I don't believe he's correct about the degree.  I think there are a lot of people who ARE good at that; but there are a LOT more than that who are NOT inherently good at that.  That is based on my experience having lived in Germany, and listening to old people, some of whom had been children during the Nazi period, and others who were adults then.  I listened to so many people who were normal, who seemed like decent, empathetic people, who explained how they were indoctrinated with the propaganda, and thought nothing of it, that it was just "information" or "advice" for their own benefit, and they realised later, that they had been manipulated, but couldn't see that as it was being done.  That was especially true for the people who started being taught that by their parents and grandparents when they were very young, and when they were old enough to hear it from their priests and reverends, and teachers, and sports coaches, the  different sources only reinforced each other.  Everything about it seemed natural and normal.

As a Jew, growing up learning early that Humans can hate each other for seemingly no reason, that kind of propagandist behaviour would trigger a feeling of "something is VERY  wrong here.  Can those other people REALLY  be so terrible that they are demonised to that extent, and "deserve" to be treated so terribly?  Something smells very wrong here.  It just doesn't seem right.  But, when children are taught that by their parents and grandparents (the people they love and respect, and think they only have good in mind to protect their children, they become blind to the meanness, lack of empathy for the demonised, and irrationality of such behaviour.  It becomes second nature, and they carry that lack of empathy for the dehumanised object of hate into adulthood, and for the rest of their lives unless a shocking event snaps them out of the blindness, such as seeing the horror of the films of what was done in the concentration camps, or meeting members of the hated group and discovering that they are Human, after all (by living through a life-threatening event together, or some other very emotional situation).

I grew up with prejudice in my schools, by Some of The Anglo Canadians in Winnipeg, but especially from immigrant Ukranians, whose whole families and ancestors had hated Jews for hundreds of years.  I attended a high school in South Chicago that was 50% Caucasian and 50 % Black, at a time when African Americans were moving into the neighbourhood, and The "Whites" were moving away.  There was terrible hatred exhibited by many of those people moving away (most of them were Polish, who hated Jews as much as The Ukranians).  I had some acquaintances who hated Blacks from the time they started talking.  We could seedhow they learned that from their parents.  One of my Neighbours, with whom I walked to school learned that early from his father.  He became an extreme right winger.  A few years ago, while visiting family in Chicago, I ran into him.  We talked a bit.  He was a changed person.  He had realised that the right-wing political leaders, who he had thought were not far right enough, were bad for the regular working man (he had been an auto mechanic).  They had busted the workers' unions.  They had "stolen" lots of money from hard-working people, and not given much back in the way of services (no medical help for people who worked hard all their lives, - only the rich can afford decent education, the rich are bleeding the middle classes dry.  Old people losing their homes and everything they own to medical costs and inflation.  It took him till 60+, perhaps 65 years of age to turn from almost Nazi to a slightly leftist.  He seemed to have the attitude "Maybe my father was wrong?"  His ideas and prejudiced attitudes about Blacks and Jews were milder, too (although, they were too deeply ingrained at a young age to be thrown away completely.  I had always been a "white Jew" to him.  Now he admitted that it was wrong to assume that ALL of any group of people are identical, and one cam=n met decent folk in any group (but, in Blacks they are just harder to find).

He still couldn't realise that the US society treating those people so horribly was one reason why he always had met Blacks who were not friendly to him, and that the other reason was that his own prejudiced attitude learned from his father made any potential good outcome from any such encounter, impossible.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 07:54:37 AM by Robb_K »
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