Print

[Captain Audio]

Looking at the many origin myths of cultures from around the world the most common is a great flood destroying a previous high technology culture of some sort, with a few survivors establishing a culture with only a tiny remnant of the knowledge of their forefathers.

Offhand I can't think of any cultures that don't have a great flood in their dim past, so the question is not specific to any particular belief system.

Ruins or sparse traces of Ancient cities have been found both near modern shores and deep in the Mediteranean seas. villages and towns pot the bottom of anaerobic lakes in eastern europe/asia.

Putting aside arguments against a mountaintop submerging flood, and going only by the premise of all centers of civilization of a pre-deluge world being covered and/or washed away by a catastrophic rise in sea level, and remembering recent dire warnings of massive flooding of coastal cities should the ice caps melt, what traces would we expect to find of a previous high tech society?

We can rarely find a fairly well preserved low tech vessel under very uncommon circumstances, but ships of the 19th century when found at all are seldom more that traces of rust in the sand.
Aircraft lost in very deep very cold water during WW2 have been found in a remarkable state of prevservation, but aircraft of the same type found in shallow warmer waters are usually ghostly skeletons crusted with marine life that dissolve even aircraft alloy as they make their home.
The Bronze age computer found in the agean was in much better shape than a Japanese zero I once saw photos of during attempts to salvage it.

Would a space shuttle remain identifiable after ten thousand years on the bottom of the ocean? I sincerely doubt it.

Arguments against a pre deluge socirty with high technology all seem to be the logical flaw of argument from ignorance, with a good deal of over estimation of the accomplishments of modern archaeology and scientific investigation thrown in.

The Hindu Mythology includes descriptions that could easily be interpreted as nuclear warfare using precision guided tactical nukes, and cloning using skin samples and body fluids.
A workable aircraft model has been found among artifacts from ancient Egypt. I had my doubts about that one till they reconstructed it and tested it in a wind tunnel.

Accounts of high tech objects found out of place in ancient strata are fairly common, and so poorly investigated and recorded that they tell us nothing. In general anything that looks out of place is dismissed without looking further.

To some extent this has proven to be the proper course. A case in point is an unusual helmet found in a dig at a level that suggested it was of Viking origin. The helmet was haled as an important new find. Unfortunately it was later identified as the protective lining of a Messerschimdt 262 jet fighter pilots helmet from WW2. The unfortunate pilot had hit the ground with sufficient velocity to drive his head into the previous mellenia of strata to meet his Germanic Ancestors. That did little for the finder's reputation I dare say.

What are your thoughts on this in general?
What would remain of our own present technology ten thousand years after a world spanning catastrophe?

A truly advanced society might leave far less of a footprint than our own wasteful and garbage strewn societies.

[boox909]

Honestly, I do not see our planet even existing 10,000 years from now....that is, if this period in our time is to be the measure.

Too many nukes, too many religious zealots, too many opportunists, too much disunity. This is simply not a good point in the history of the world to question if the world's tech will survive 10,000 years; I question if the planet will survive humanity for another 10,000 years.

Killjoy Boox 

[narfstar]

I think it will get just as bad as the Bible says it will get before the second coming. As it was in the days of Noah. People were living to be nearly a thousand. Living that long could produce some pretty advanced tech. It would also result in a lot of efforts to beat boredom at any cause. Leading to the unrighteousness that necessitated the flood. We will develop methods such as cloning that will prolong life to many hundreds of years. With that the creed and need of man will overwhelm him.

[Captain Audio]

Honestly, I do not see our planet even existing 10,000 years from now....that is, if this period in our time is to be the measure.

Too many nukes, too many religious zealots, too many opportunists, too much disunity. This is simply not a good point in the history of the world to question if the world's tech will survive 10,000 years; I question if the planet will survive humanity for another 10,000 years.

Killjoy Boox 

The Earth Abides, it was around before we came along and will be here after we are dust.
We may make it uninhabitable for ourselves at least, but nothing we have or are likely to build will destroy the planet itself.

[narfstar]

And if you believe we are divinely created we are protected. If not then we are just another part of nature and what we do no matter is natural and the some form of nature will always exist

[Captain Audio]

I don't think we are protected from our own folly, theres no evidence that we ever were.
That said the race does not have to become extinct in order for our cultures and technology to be buried, burned, or sunk without a trace.

[JVJ]

I think you're being a bit pessimistic, Boox,
and somewhat over-optimistic of man's impact on planet Earth. I agree with you that the likelihood of humans being around in 10,000 years is probably nil, for all the reasons you cite. However, we might make the planet uninhabitable for us, but I sincerely doubt that we're capable of doing much damage to the actual sphere. As Richard Feynman stated on another topic, "The stage is simply too big for the players." Humans are minuscule inhabitants of Earth. Did you know that, pound for pound, there are more ANTS on Earth than humans? Yes, we've got great capabilities and technology, but as the Iceland volcano recently demonstrated, we're really impotent when compared to nature.

Our artifacts will most likely survive us. After all, we have human tools that are that old and some human constructions survive that are half that old and will likely last that long again. But we have to stop imagining that we're so bloody important individually and learn how to co-exist with our world and all of its other inhabitants, human and otherwise. Then 10,000 years MIGHT be possible.

If we don't, I agree with Captain Audio, humanity will turn out to be just another failed experiment in a long line of Earthly denizens. The Earth will abide despite our best (or worst) efforts.

Peace (and longevity!), Jim (|:{>

[JonTheScanner]

Just stopped in to ask what you have against floods.  The word you're looking for is "antediluvian" meaning "before the flood."

[Captain Audio]

I've seen it spelled both ways. Remember the words of Mark Twain, "I never trust a man who only knows one way to spell a word".

Our artifacts will most likely survive us. After all, we have human tools that are that old and some human constructions survive that are half that old and will likely last that long again.

Stone structures are more durable than concrete, even with preservation many Roman era concrete structures are mere shadows of what they were, while the basic structure of the Pyramids is still solid as the rocks it was built from.
Structural steel rusts away relatively quickly when exposed to the elements, especially if exposed to great heat in a fire or fire storm.
Even if a city were left intact but unattended, the incidence of fire by spontaneous combustion would cause practically every modern city on earth to succumb to unchecked fire storms within a few decades at most.
Massive concrete structures might weather slowly, but once they have been damaged by earthquake and fire the crumbling remains would weather away in a millenia or so.

Accumulation of common bird dung caused the collapse of a major bridges several years ago, the dung ate through thick steel bolts.
Larger suspension bridges require constant maintenance to avoid similar failures.

Few iron objects remain from ancient times, often as only clumps of rust that retain the shape of the object. Some iron weapons sheathed in gold survived in that manner the gold split open as rust swelled under it.
A friend salvaged a sunken fishing boat from the atlantic coastal waters years ago. On board was a Winchester Golden Spike leveraction rifle, a gun no more than 15 years old at that time. The barrel was nothing but rust around a very thin tube of degraded steel, The receiver, which was thickly gold plated on these commemorative firearms, was likewise a mass of rust flakes barely holding its shape, the majority of the gold had peeled away as the iron frame swelled as it rusted.

Structures less substantial than the pyramids survive if buried deeply enough away from wind and weather, but the sphinx shows signs of having been weathered to an unrecognizable stump in the far past, recarved, and now its core is almost  unrecognizable again under it's protective sheath due to simple condensation inside the sheathing stones.

They've found remains of cities buried in the silt of deltas in recent years, nature reclaimed that real estate within a few thousand years.

Salt water can eat away steel at as much as 1/8 inch per year, depending on temperature and electro-magnetic fields due to minerals or other metals present.

[JVJ]

I remember that Isaac Asimov wrote a story about alien archeologists in the far future excavating on Earth and it was Asimov's premise that the only artifacts remaining from humanity were those made of porcelain. The joke was all of the mystical and sacred uses the aliens attributed to the fact that almost every example they found had a hole of some sort at the lowest point.

I have no idea what might remain after 10,000 years, but I'm confident that some things will. Most likely, as I alluded and you specified, they will NOT be from our current millennium - albeit gold seems to be pretty durable and we seem to have plenty of that in almost all of our cultures.

(|:{>

[Astaldo711]

The earth has been around for billions of years before humans and will be here for another 5 billion or so. The sun will swell to a red giant and swallow the inner planets and the others will have their atmosphere boil away. We won't destroy the planet. Humans, on the other hand may successfully wipe themselves out.
I remember someone on a forum had this in their signature and it's always stuck with me;
"I don't know what weapons WWIII will be fought with, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and rocks.

[MarkWarner]

The quote is originally from Albert Einstein

"I do not know how the Third World War will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the Fourth - rocks"

[Captain Audio]

Interesting finds in Gabon Africa.

http://geology.about.com/od/geophysics/a/aaoklo.htm

Wonder if there would be a way for this sort of energy to be tapped?

Also I wonder what the result would be if a meteor struck one of these natural reactors while its radioactive ores were hot?

[BobS]

We can rarely find a fairly well preserved low tech vessel under very uncommon circumstances, but ships of the 19th century when found at all are seldom more that traces of rust in the sand.
Aircraft lost in very deep very cold water during WW2 have been found in a remarkable state of prevservation, but aircraft of the same type found in shallow warmer waters are usually ghostly skeletons crusted with marine life that dissolve even aircraft alloy as they make their home.

Bought (non-fiction) DEEP TIME by Gregory Benford at a thrift store recently: "Heavy materials such as thick parchment, clay, and stone stress time and endurance. Media emphasizing space-saving are apt to be light and less durable, such as papyrus and paper.... We hear down the corridors of history from eitherthe original, durable media, or the flimsy forms that must be continuously renewed, as in the copying of ancient texts by monks in medieval times. Our century's electromagnetic media, from radio to the optical disk, are more perishable still."

Disk drives have very limited warranties. Comic book scans will need to be copied over and over REDUNDANTLY to survive.

Anyway, re the discussion, maybe modern day relics won't survive so well thru time.

Looking in trash dumps (for old bottles), I see that cans rust away relatively quickly, glass bottles last longer. Don't know how long plastic bottles will last, but know that biodegradable plastic has been developed.

The Bronze age computer found in the agean was in much better shape than a Japanese zero I once saw photos of during attempts to salvage it.

It's mechanical rather than electronic computer.
Probably high tech electronic computers wouldn't be identifiable after so long.

Arguments against a pre deluge socirty with high technology all seem to be the logical flaw of argument from ignorance, with a good deal of over estimation of the accomplishments of modern archaeology and scientific investigation thrown in.

Benford claims that radioactive dating methods have improved.

I believe dating that shows that the Shroud of Turin isn't from circa 32AD.

The Hindu Mythology includes descriptions that could easily be interpreted as nuclear warfare using precision guided tactical nukes, and cloning using skin samples and body fluids.

Oppenheimer on nuke explosion: "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

Mahabharata descriptions also include what sounds like aircraft.
I'll read up on the possible cloning descriptions.

The ancient medical symbol the caduceus depicts two serpents coiled around a staff. The coiled serpents look like DNA double helix. Serpents have dual symbolic meaning: knowledge and danger.
"A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous." Alternate interpretation of Garden of Eden myth is end of childhood innocents with Adam and Eve discovering sex and having to leave homes of their parents and make their way in the world.

A workable aircraft model has been found among artifacts from ancient Egypt. I had my doubts about that one till they reconstructed it and tested it in a wind tunnel.

http://paranormal.about.com/od/ancientanomalies/ig/Most-Puzzling-Ancient-Artifact/Ancient-Model-Aircraft.htm

Accounts of high tech objects found out of place in ancient strata are fairly common, and so poorly investigated and recorded that they tell us nothing. In general anything that looks out of place is dismissed without looking further.

Google Charles Fort. BOOK OF THE DAMNED. What doesn't fit into orthodox science is generally ignored by the orthodox scientific hierarchy.

Like older religious hierarchy made heresy of what didn't fit their orthodoxy.

I highly recommend Robert Anton Wilson's THE NEW INQUISITION (subtitled Irrational Rationalism and Citadel of Science), which unfortunately appears to be currently out of print.
Amazon shows a few pages from it tho.
Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Inquisition

To some extent this has proven to be the proper course. A case in point is an unusual helmet found in a dig at a level that suggested it was of Viking origin. The helmet was haled as an important new find. Unfortunately it was later identified as the protective lining of a Messerschimdt 262 jet fighter pilots helmet from WW2. The unfortunate pilot had hit the ground with sufficient velocity to drive his head into the previous mellenia of strata to meet his Germanic Ancestors. That did little for the finder's reputation I dare say.

What are your thoughts on this in general?
What would remain of our own present technology ten thousand years after a world spanning catastrophe?

A truly advanced society might leave far less of a footprint than our own wasteful and garbage strewn societies.

I think this is a very fascinating topic.

Showcase Rip Hunter stimulated my interest on these areas.
I believe the issue with aliens in ancient Egypt predates Daniken's CHARIOTS OF THE GODS.
The issue before that one had dinosaurs in Medieval Europe.

Peace (after Justice),
Bob

[BobS]

Honestly, I do not see our planet even existing 10,000 years from now....that is, if this period in our time is to be the measure.

Too many nukes, too many religious zealots, too many opportunists, too much disunity. This is simply not a good point in the history of the world to question if the world's tech will survive 10,000 years; I question if the planet will survive humanity for another 10,000 years.

Killjoy Boox 

I hope you're wrong.
Back in 1960s I remember "Eve of Destruction" and "Dawn of Correction".
We haven't destroyed ourselves yet but we haven't entered a golden age either.

My big fear is that the "Israel problem" is leading to WWIII, nuclear war that will kill maybe 100s of millions of people.
IMO Israel is a bigger nuclear threat than Iran, and the Israel threat exists now; Iran threat is merely potential at this point.

I also fear that the arrogance of the scientific establish might destroy us. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Also remember Mickey Mouse's dilemma  in "The Sorcerer's Apprentice".

Peace (after Justice),
Bob

[BobS]

I think it will get just as bad as the Bible says it will get before the second coming. As it was in the days of Noah. People were living to be nearly a thousand. Living that long could produce some pretty advanced tech. It would also result in a lot of efforts to beat boredom at any cause. Leading to the unrighteousness that necessitated the flood. We will develop methods such as cloning that will prolong life to many hundreds of years. With that the creed and need of man will overwhelm him.

Maybe 1000 "years" was actually 1000 "moons". 1000/13 makes for reasonable lifespans.
Ancient units may become confused in a less ancient time period. Legends happen.

I'd love to have 1000 years of YOUTH. Lotsa strawberries to pluck and relish, even if maybe more enjoyed hanging from a clift knowing you can't hold on much longer.
I'd love to have time to learn to play musical instruments, advance my knowledge of various subjects (mathematical and otherwise).
I'd love to have time to hike the Appalachian Trail and visit foreign lands and have all sorts of adventures.

Peace (after Justice),
Bob

[BobS]

Honestly, I do not see our planet even existing 10,000 years from now....that is, if this period in our time is to be the measure.

Too many nukes, too many religious zealots, too many opportunists, too much disunity. This is simply not a good point in the history of the world to question if the world's tech will survive 10,000 years; I question if the planet will survive humanity for another 10,000 years.

Killjoy Boox 

The Earth Abides, it was around before we came along and will be here after we are dust.
We may make it uninhabitable for ourselves at least, but nothing we have or are likely to build will destroy the planet itself.

I don't know that the Earth will necessarily Abide.
Creating miniature suns and black holes here on earth might get out of hand and destroy the Earth and maybe even the entire solar system.

When 1st nuke was exploded scientists guesstimated that chance of chain reaction destroying the whole earth was 1/1,000,000.

[BobS]

And if you believe we are divinely created we are protected. If not then we are just another part of nature and what we do no matter is natural and the some form of nature will always exist

"Conviction creates convicts."

I HOPE that even if the physical/MATERIAL universe (or MEAT universe as I like to call it - "dog eat dog") ceases to exist, there really exists a SPIRITUAL universe (multiverses?) where our spirits will continue (without need to kill and eat other living beings and without command hierarchies).

I keep my mind open because I don't want to rule out possibilities that we may need to deal with without assuming that God/Jesus is going to take care of us.

Peace (after Justice),
Bob

[BobS]

I think you're being a bit pessimistic, Boox,
and somewhat over-optimistic of man's impact on planet Earth. I agree with you that the likelihood of humans being around in 10,000 years is probably nil, for all the reasons you cite.

"Space is the place."
If we manage to spread our seed to other worlds in space, humans may survive.

Also, have you noticed, Jim, that new religions generally replace angels with space aliens?
Examples: Scientology, Urantia, etc.

(Likewise Mormonism was of its time and place.)

However, we might make the planet uninhabitable for us, but I sincerely doubt that we're capable of doing much damage to the actual sphere. As Richard Feynman stated on another topic, "The stage is simply too big for the players." Humans are minuscule inhabitants of Earth. Did you know that, pound for pound, there are more ANTS on Earth than humans? Yes, we've got great capabilities and technology, but as the Iceland volcano recently demonstrated, we're really impotent when compared to nature.

I still fear mini sun, mini black hole, or nuclear chain reaction may destroy the whole Third Stone from the Sun.

One of my favorite books: Kurt Vonnegut's CAT'S CRADLE.
Remember Ice 9?
Ice 9 is just a symbol for the dangerous arrogance of science.
(Bokononism is one of my favorite religions too.)

Scientists attempting to create black holes and mini-suns are kids playing with matches.

Peace (after Justice),
Bob


Our artifacts will most likely survive us. After all, we have human tools that are that old and some human constructions survive that are half that old and will likely last that long again. But we have to stop imagining that we're so bloody important individually and learn how to co-exist with our world and all of its other inhabitants, human and otherwise. Then 10,000 years MIGHT be possible.

If we don't, I agree with Captain Audio, humanity will turn out to be just another failed experiment in a long line of Earthly denizens. The Earth will abide despite our best (or worst) efforts.

Peace (and longevity!), Jim (|:{>
[/quote]

[BobS]

Just stopped in to ask what you have against floods.  The word you're looking for is "antediluvian" meaning "before the flood."

At end of Ice Age, massive floods carved Grand Canyon and likely flooded the Mediterranean, etc.

In mountains of western Va, I have found fossil crinoid stems and scallops.

I don't believe Noah flood story (too many animals, etc.) but believe legends of such flood came from stories passed down from massive floods at end of Ice Age when melting glaciers broke thru ice barriers creating massive floods.

Shifting of techtonic plates is current scientific explanation for fossils in mountains, right?

Peace (after Justice),
Bob

[BobS]

The quote is originally from Albert Einstein

"I do not know how the Third World War will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the Fourth - rocks"

If memory serves, Ron Cobb used a paraphrase of your quote in one of his political cartoons.
Ron Cobb by the way did political cartoons for the Underground Press Syndicate back in the late 1960s-early 1970s, and various underground newspapers reprinted the cartoons.
"Alice" was the underground newspaper at Va Tech back when I attended.
I was suspended from Tech spring 1970 for participating in a campus building lock-in in protest of the Vietnam War, its expansion to Cambodia, and the killings of students at Kent State and Jackson State.

Ron Cobb later did design work on Star Wars etc.

Peace (after Justice),
Bob

[boox909]

In the past [deleted] and his ilk have deleted my posts when they "put me in time out" or banned me so I don't expect that my reply is still on [deleted].

Peace (after Justice),
Bob

What does this have to do with GAC?! Send it to that person in your private email. We are not interested in spill over from other sites.

You can forget about your reply even reaching that person, because that post is being zapped.

Please take your fights with other people from other sites to your own email and keep it off of our forum.

You want to attack people that you have conflicts with on other sites, do so where it started or elsewhere, but not here, period -- that is not even a topic for discussion.

B. 

[BobS]

In the past [deleted] and his ilk have deleted my posts when they "put me in time out" or banned me so I don't expect that my reply is still on [deleted].

Peace (after Justice),
Bob

What does this have to do with GAC?!

I guess it doesn't matter because my post was [deleted] here.

Send it to that person in your private email. We are not interested in spill over from other sites.

Why send it to [deleted] in my [deleted]? He [deleted] suppressed [deleted] me there. He [deleted] got [deleted] my [deleted] message [deleted] but [deleted] didn't [deleted] want others [deleted] to [deleted] read [deleted] my [deleted] message.

Who [deleted] elected [deleted] you [deleted] spokesman for [deleted] "we".
Even if you [deleted] are [deleted] coowner [deleted] you [deleted] aren't [deleted] the [deleted] king, who [deleted] supposedly [deleted] is [deleted] allowed [deleted] to [deleted] speak [deleted] of [deleted] himself [deleted] in [deleted] the [deleted] first [deleted] person [deleted] plural.

[Deleted] poster quoted [deleted] Twain so [deleted] I [deleted] [deleted] [deleted] [deleted].

You can forget about your reply even reaching that person, because that post is being zapped.

If you [deleted] it, go [delete] yourself.
If Narf deleted it, I can accept his decision, as he lets me use my signature file here unlike [deleted] or [deleted].
[Deleted] the [deleted] [deleted].

Please take your fights with other people from other sites to your own email and keep it off of our forum.

B.

You're aren't Narf, are you? Are you a [deleted] coowner?
Who are you in real life?
I'm not undercover.
I do hate [deleted] undercover bullies.
I am Bob Stump.
My email is bee_ess107@hotmail.com.
My phone number is (804) 737-5979.
(I'll talk to anyone but please don't make harassing calls.)
I live in Sandston VA.
Who the [deleted] are you?

You want to attack people that you have conflicts with on other sites, do so where it started or elsewhere, but not here, period -- that is not even a topic for discussion.

I think I've been treated unjustly there. [deleted] [deleted] [deleted] [deleted] [deleted]....

Peace (before [deleted],
Bob
 
PS. I helped you out by putting [deleted] here & there in my message.
Probably won't matter -- you'll probably [delete]  this message too.

PPS. Before you [delete] this post, please ask yourself why you made your post public rather than PRIVATELY EMAILED me. Rules don't apply to kings, right?
Kings always get the last word. [Deleted] that [deleted]!

[boox909]

GAC is not the forum for you to utilize in attacking people that you have problems with from other sites.

What happened on that other site has nothing to do with GAC. Why did I not email you? I do not wish to email you and therefore I gave you the respect of letting you know the issue in public.

Please take your fights with other people, from other sites, to your own email, and keep it off of our forum.

That is all I have to say about this matter.

B.

[BobS]

I posted 8 messages here on topic, replying to I believe everyone who had posted previously, before my 9th post was deleted and I was scolded by Mr. Boox.

If anyone wants to reply to my antediluvian technology posts, please do. I find the topic fascinating.

If anyone wants to chat re Mark Twain or other forbidden topics, please send me a private email at bee_ess107@hotmail.com.
If multiple people want to chat via email, I will probably forward others' posts and reply to all the others collectively.

If anybody emails me re the other forbidden topic(s), I warn you that my remarks will not be for the squeamish.
I don't believe in PC enforced politeness or Chosen People or restrictions on free speech.

Here I'll try to refrain from political comments but will retain my unPC flag icon and signature, unless I am commanded to  change 'em.

The more folks antagonize me (by banning me and otherwise gagging me) the more antagonistic I get.

Thanks,
Bob