[narfstar]

Gotta love comic history and character evolution. We have fun reading these simple little posts and observations.

[profh0011]

In some later incarnations the lady wore huge honking sunglasses that obscured her identity.

I absolutely LOVED the new Phantom Lady that debuted in the ACTION COMICS WEEKLY anthology in the late 80's. Chuck Austen (who also did some very "cute" x-rated books, before focusing on writing some books for Marvel that seemed to be a magnet for an unusually high amount of HATE from some fans) did the art, and made it a very "fun" story. 

http://www.cosmicteams.com/quality/imagesDC/phantomLady_action_637.jpg

This was before "darkness" over-ran "the big two" and everything became so nasty and violent and abysmal, it made the 70's look like the 50's.  (This new PL was eventually SLAUGHTERED with some very graphic violence as part of one of DC's much-hearalded "company-wide crossovers"-- oh, yeah, like everybody was really looking forward to seeing that kind of totally-uncalled-for brutality when they buy their comic-books.  I believe it was the same crossover where the Ted Kord BLUE BEETLE was murdered by being shot thru the head. How do they expect fans to want to keep buying their books when they do stuff like that?)

[paw broon]

Bit late with this but you might want to know who PS Artbooks are.  Here's their site and they're here in the U.K.:-
http://psartbooks.com/

"This was before "darkness" over-ran "the big two" and everything became so nasty and violent and abysmal, it made the 70's look like the 50's.  (This new PL was eventually SLAUGHTERED with some very graphic violence as part of one of DC's much-hearalded "company-wide crossovers"-- oh, yeah, like everybody was really looking forward to seeing that kind of totally-uncalled-for brutality when they buy their comic-books.  I believe it was the same crossover where the Ted Kord BLUE BEETLE was murdered by being shot thru the head. How do they expect fans to want to keep buying their books when they do stuff like that?)"  profh0011
Couldn't agree more.  Perhaps a groundswell of opposition to this dark, often offensive comic book content is what is needed, or am I just getting old?

[profh0011]

"Couldn't agree more.  Perhaps a groundswell of opposition to this dark, often offensive comic book content is what is needed, or am I just getting old?"

Something I got a major kick out of was, some years back, I published an X-RATED superhero comic. It was designed to look and read like a late-60's Marvel, except, with lots of nudity. But I went out of my way for the whole thing to have a very upbeat, "clean", "nice" tone to it (unlike many porn comics and MOST modern-day superhero comics).

I got at least one comment from someone who said they "never read comics, but they liked this"!  Then again, someone else suggested that what i wrote would "work fine without the sex".

In addition, quite a few stories I've written have contained extreme graphic violence... but those tend to be written as comedies.  You're laughing too hard to be really offended.

I think attitude has a lot to do with why the world is in the state it's in today...

[JVJ]

In addition, quite a few stories I've written have contained extreme graphic violence... but those tend to be written as comedies.  You're laughing too hard to be really offended.

Isn't this where someone is supposed to stand back, take an objective look, and ask "is it really possible for 'extreme graphic violence' (or ANY violence, for that matter) to really be FUNNY?"

Since no one else seems willing to ask, I will. Are we, as a society, so blas

[josemas]

Well, Jim, I find the extreme exaggerated violence of the classic GA animated cartoons (Tom and Jerry, Bugs Bunny, Roadrunner and Coyote, etc...) to be very funny.  The same goes for the exaggerated violence in the slapstick comedies of that era such as those of Laurel and hardy and the Three Stooges.

I find nothing sad about finding humor in these sort of exaggerations.

Best

Joe

[paw broon]

That's a good point. It seems to me that when there is humour, as, or especially, in cartoons such as T&J etc. the violence becomes inoffensive and, for me, fall-off-the-chair funny.  Same with the 3 Stooges and A&C.  But my wife thinks that the bullying in A&C is disgusting, as she sees it.  I suppose that when I read a comic nowadays and find the humourless violence that also seems to permeate some tv shows right now, e.g. Hunted, then I do despair.  It's a bit like bad language.  Characters in some comics swear an awful lot and I don't like it.  But we saw Campaign at the weekend (Will Ferrell) and it was full off the foulest possible language but folk laughed and so did I after the initial shock.  But it was a farce although it seemed to show up the flaws in American politics.  On BBC we have The Thick of It, with the foulest mouthed person ever to appear on tv, Malcolm Tucker (Peter Capaldi, well known Scottish thespian)  and it does the same.  And it's funny.  We know that's what a lot of politics is like behind the scenes.  And it's worrying.  But unmissable viewing. 
Rambling now so I have to give this more thought but I see the violence on our streets and wonder if it is a good thing to have in our comics. 
Not sure where I'm going with this so I'll stop.

[JVJ]

I don't believe that profh was talking about A&C, T&J or other cartoony/silly "violence". Yes, slapstick can be funny, but it's not "extreme graphic violence". Just look at some of today's comics. Well, six years ago's comics - since I haven't bought one in that period of time. I recall "The Boys" - which wanted you to laugh at blood and guts and beheadings or whatever. It saddened me that comic books, which I love dearly, have to exploit that aspect of their capability in order to find an audience. You couldn't even sell a Tom & Jerry comic today as kids today would just consider them to be silly, not funny.

There is violence in life and I can accept its portrayal in comics. But to make it really extreme and then to consider it to funny is asking too much, of me anyway.

FWIW.  (|:{>

[MarkWarner]

Did someone mention Laurel and Hardy and in the same breath The Three Stooges? Was that really you Joe?

The greatest comedy duo of all time (by a country mile) being besmirched by some cheap unfunny vaudeville act.  Next you'll be mentioning how cool Abbot and Costello were. I really thought better of you

[narfstar]

Hey Mark

Who's on first?

One of the funnies routines ever

[paw broon]

He has a point, Mark.  And I'm proud to say that A&C are great.  We went to the pictures a couple of months ago to see A&C Meet Frankenstein and I started laughing and didn't stop till the end.  Linda just can't understand it but I caught her smiling a few times.
I know we're getting off subject but the memory has fair cheered me up.

[MarkWarner]

Had you been at the giggle weed before you went in the cinema? Also don't you find that a grimace of embarrassment looks quite a bit like a smile? But are you seriously saying that A&C are in the same league as L&H?

[paw broon]

Oh dear, a contentious issue rears its ugly head.  Not so much in the same league as a different league.  Over many, many years, I've laughed less and less at L&H, to the extent now that I hardly ever watch if they're on tv.  I still find A&C riotously funny at times.  There seems to be much more "mayhem" in A&C's films and I like that.  If I admit to what else makes me laugh, you'll see why my taste might have "deteriorated".  Miranda; Big Bang Theory; The Thick of It (although those last few episodes were pretty heavy); Black Books; IT Crowd; Two Ronnies;; Will Hay; Arthur Askey and Stinker Murdoch in The Ghost Train; Hancock; The Navy Lark; Men From The Ministry; Goons and lots more.
A pal is a huge L&H fan and this isn't the first time I've had this chat.
As with M.O. and Scottish independence, here's another world wobbling problem, eh?

[MarkWarner]

Well I think if I was in Scotland I'd probably be voting yes .... but would need more facts first.

I have a sneaking suspicion that as Scotland has more Giant Pandas (2) than Tory MP's (1) it would rather suit Cameron et al if they waved goodbye to Scotland and the current 41 Labour seats.

But we'll just have to disagree on L&H v A&C ... suffice to say you are wrong and I am right
PS: You missed off Father Ted and Fawlty Towers (Black Books is not too well known I enjoyed it) The Goons you are welcome to. Mitchell and Webb especially Peep Show are rather enjoyable

[profh0011]

Funny stuff? I'm currently watching THE MONKEES!! What a completely ridiculous show. But I love the characters, and I LOVE the music. I just now, after all these years, noticed that for part of its run, the story editors & chief writers were the husband-wife team of Gerald Gardner & Dee Caruso-- who, later, held the same positions on GET SMART! Last night I watched the episode with "Dragonman" (Joey Foreman-- who also played the detective, "Harry Hoo" on GET SMART). And I swear, some of the jokes, which I didn't really remember, I was predicting how they went... because I'd heard the SAME jokes on GET SMART.

"And now... the Chinese ICE torture."
"NO! NO!  NOT the CHINESE ICE TORTURE!"
"Yes! YES! The Chinese ice torture!! Hah hah hah!"
"Tell me... what IS the Chinese ice torture?"

(After he's explained it, his henchman had this to say...)

"Master, NO! I CANNOT do the Chinese ice torture!"
"Ahhhh, so, you do not have the STOMACH for it, eh?"
"It's not that... it's just... we're all out of ice."

[josemas]

Mark,

I should mention that the Three Stooges were hardly "a cheap unfunny vaudeville act".  Along with Ted Healy they built up a very successful, popular (and well paid) vaudeville act which attracted the attention of the major Hollywood studios and eventually a contract with one of the biggest-MGM.  When Healy and the Stooges split a few years later the Stooges went on to make the longest running comedy short series ever for Columbia.  They were popular then with the public and remain the best known of the GA cinema comedians to younger viewers today.  There are probably many young people who have no idea who Laurel and Hardy, Abbott and Costello or even Charlie Chaplin are but who will instantly recognize the Stooges.

BTW, Stan Laurel's background was not all that different from the Stooges either.  Years of working in British music halls and American vaudeville (with occasional forays into films) before his accidental teaming with character actor Oliver "Babe" Hardy and the development of the "Stan & Ollie" characters.

While I realize that everyone has their own subjective view of what's funny or not I don't think the Stooges can be so easily dismissed. 

My two cents

Joe

[josemas]

Jim,

I'm not familiar with the particular comic you mention (The Boys) so I can't comment on whether or not it is typical of much of what is published these days.  But then there is so much published these days that I can only sample bits and pieces.  Some of it is very, very good and much of it is dreck (albeit sometimes very well illustrated dreck).

I do remember that even back in the 1960s  Eerie Publications often mixed humor with some very graphic violence in their horror mags and certainly the EC comics of the 1950s gained notoriety for doing the same ("Foul Play" for example) so this sort of thing is hardly anything new.

Btw, while Tom and Jerry may not make it in comics now-a-days there a good number of comics being published that would be considered "safe" for all ages.

Best

Joe

[MarkWarner]

The Three Stooges? Where did they come from? It looks like you certainly know how to stoke a fire Joe

I think I am just a voice in the wilderness and will just have to let it go before some serious injuries occur. I'll just put it down as a matter of taste (ie: whether you have it or not).

BTW Keaton is funny Chaplin is not.

[paw broon]

"BTW Keaton is funny Chaplin is not." Mark.
Bang on and you're right, Faulty towers (or Twatty Otters, was it, one episode?) and Father Ted do require the title, "classics".  Odd thing is, Linda and I are both big David Mitchell fans but dislike the Webb guy, and Peep Show we don't find funny at all.
See, I enjoy the manic slapstick that is The 3 Stooges.

More seriously, chaps, The Boys is imo, quite foul and there does seem to be a genre of sickening violence in comics.  I mentioned Some Italian comics on http://comicsuk.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=149&sid=6190447494ce0b8b6d456df2bf467509 the other day and the fact that there were lots of publications which were disgustingly violent, pornographic and worse, poorly drawn. . These were also available in Spanish translations in Spain after Franco fell.  But in American comics it's not that new a phenomenon, apart from the examples Joe mentions.  I'm sure some of us remember Faust.  And in underground comics, the worst excesses of S.Clay Wilson and his wee demon guy.
I do sometimes feel as JVJ does and occasionally wonder if there is, or should be, a place for such graphic, cruel violence.  But it's not going to stop and will continue in comics and other media to de-sensitize people and the rest will have to live with the consequences.
Perhaps, though, it's all a matter of opinion.  I wont read or view the material if I can avoid it, so I'm going to make a pasta sauce for tonight and wash it down with a liberal dose of vino collapso while reading some comics, although The News quiz and Have I got news for you are both on tonight.
Mark did you see Conrad Black last week and his verbal tussles with Hyslop?
Now, if we can only throw out that last Tory MP.

[profh0011]

"Faust"-- wretch! What was Tim Vigil's problem?

Sorry if I helped de-rail this thread...

Then again, nobody mentioned The Marx Brothers... or Hope & Crosby... or Kay Kyser & his orchestra!)

[paw broon]

No prof, you didn't de-rail it, it was what was needed -  a bit of fun to leaven a serious discussion.  Not sure I know or have seen enough of Ky Kaiser but The Marx Brothers also do it for me.  That same pal I mentioned, the L&H fan, is also an aficionado of The Marx Bros.
Tim Vigil started all that stuff with Grips, from Silver Wolf Comics but it only got seriously stomach churning in Faust. Grips was later continued by Greater Mercury but not by Vigil.
I hope you've all seen The Two Ronnies and if not, have a look for them.  Lots here:-
http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=the+two+ronnies
Fork Handles is up there with the Dead Parrot and have a look at The Argentinian Racing Pigeon
Hope the humour translates and you can figure out the accents.

[profh0011]

I never realized that I'd run across Kay Kyser when I was a little kid. Some local UHF station used to run old, obscure cartoons, and there was this one really cute one, about fish, accompanied by a song... "Three Little Fishes".  I don't know if it was the same recording, but it could be... this was a big hit for Kay Kyser!

Kay's "big band" focused more on pop tunes and novelty tunes, than, say, Glenn Miller, but from what I've read, at the time, he was the MOST popular band of the big band era!  (Glenn Miller, sadly, never became #1 until after he died-- actually disappeared under mysterious circumstances while crossing the Channel just before the end of the war.)

Kyser & his band did a series of 8 or 9 feature films, all of which combined adventure, comedy and music.  My intro was YOU'LL FIND OUT, which involves a spooky old mansion, a fake "medium" and some other strange things. As it happens, it's the only movie to ever feature Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi AND Peter Lorre all together in one film!

I've seen 2 others so far-- MY FAVORITE SPY, which I didn't care for much, and SWING FEVER, which I did-- this one combines the themes of swing music and professional boxing-- I'm not makin' this up!  The latter also features both Nat Pendleton and Maxie Rosenbloom, 2 of the 3 actors I've identified as the basis of "Happy Hogan"!

[JVJ]

To clarify my point, my statement was with regard to "extreme graphic violence" as depicted in modern comic books. Not cartoons, not b&w film comedies, not cheapo Warren rip offs from the 60's. When you can see realistic blood and guts offered as a humorous counterpoint to a story point, I have to pass. If "sick" is "funny", I'm not laughing. YMMV.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[MarkWarner]

That is all agreed, well at least by me. I live amongst film gore lovers. The zombie films are Ok with me as they are very much tongue in cheek, but I pass big time on all the "realistic stuff".

But anyway we have moved on to discuss even deeper issues, as you have probably read. The question is are you in the Laurel and Hardy camp or with the Abbot and Costello, Three Stooges and other second raters?

[profh0011]

What about The Marx Brothers?

What about The Monkees?

What about Monty Python's Flying Circus?

What about the CARRY ON gang?