[profh0011]

I thought I'd start a thread for all things LSH-related.

Now, pardon me while I post the middle of a conversation from somewhere else...

from the KLORDNY 2020 yahoo group:


Rob Rundle wrote:
"I disagree (with janarrah, not with Henry) as strongly as it's possible to disagree."


That sounds like something from a Monty Python sketch, for some reason...   : )




"The decline in popularity coincided with the decline in quality of the book. Superboy's presence or absence was irrelevant."


I see it this way.  The longer Paul Levitz was on the book, the less "teen" and the more "adult" the LEGION became.  So, EVENTUALLY, we should have seen SUPERMAN show up.  Preferably drawn by Curt Swan (heehee).


Paul Levitz said he felt burnt out.  Was it "having" to toe the line with the Post-CRISIS/New DCU Superman continuity?  Did he really "HAVE" to kill Superboy?  Yes or no, he said that it was only Keith Giffen's return that recharged him.  No doubt, Levitz & Giffen were plotting the book TOGETHER, just as Claremont & Byrne on X-MEN, and Michelinie & Layton on IRON MAN (a rare case where the INKER was writing, not the penciller).


I loved Keith's 1st return issue (#50). It was such a mind-blower, both visually and story-wise.  I was rather shocked when, in a later interview, Keith Giffen revealed that the entire issue was the victim of multiple technical problems up the wazoo.


What I didn't "get" was how, starting with Keith's 2ND new issue, all the figure-drawing began to distort.  Especially, people's faces all got "FAT".  Mike DeCarlo had done a sub-average job on just about every penciller on LEGION up to then (and absolutely MURDERED Jim Aparo on BATMAN).  But Giffen-DeCarlo, at least at first, looked like Kirby-Stone.  So after all his "ugly" experiments, Keith had finally decided to go back to "doing" Jack Kirby again.  I just STILL don't understand those FAT faces.


When Al Gordon took over inks, there was a noticeable drop in quality.  Many disagree with this view, but it's how I feel.  But then you had the last 4 issues (Giffen-DeCarlo again, I think), where, it's clear, Keith was no longer doing pencils, but the roughest of rough layouts, and DeCarlo was not up to snuff.  It's like the example of Kirby-Royer I once saw where Royer did full pencils over a very rough Kirby layout.  Not the same as sharp inks over finished pencils.  (This happened once with John & Sal Buscema, TOO!! See CAPTAIN AMERICA #115.) Only, not one-tenth as good.


However, the moment "Five Years Later" started, Giffen-Gordon began to look like Kirby-Bell (Roussos).  I'M NOT KIDDING. CRAP.  Crap layouts, crap pencils, crap inks.  The colors were nothing to brag about either... until after that 3-month shake-down (around issues #9-11) when they switched over to COMPUTER coloring.  Suddenly, the coloring was the ONLY competent work in the entire book.  It's no wonder Tom McCraw got later promoted to writer (not that that REALLY makes much sense, but, you know what I mean.)


Kevin Hawkins (who joined KLORDNY the same time I did) was the one who told me at length about Mike Carlin's behind-the-scenes B.S.  It's strange, as editor, he did such an (apparently) WONDERFUL and consistent job on the SUPERMAN titles.  Jerry Ordway, George Perez, Dan Jurgens, Dennis Janke, Roger Stern, etc. etc... But it seems everything else he touched, directly or otherwise, turned to crap.  And the moment he left SUPERMAN (replaced by Joey "Spider-Clone Saga" Cavalieri), SUPERMAN went COMPLETELY TO HELL. (Not all at once... but it was definitely a prolonged downward spiral.)


Kevin also is one of those people who LOVED "Five Years Later", particularly for the Ayla-Vi relationship.  Maybe I could have liked that, too, if both the writing AND art hadn't been CRAP.


I feel some series should be what they are, concept-wise.  LEGION, like STAR TREK, is about a "utopian" future.  You can tell endless stories where ytou threaten that utopia.  You SHOULD NOT, EVER tell one where it's gone TO HELL.  Even if you plan (ALLGEDLY) to "bring it back" at the end of a 3-YEAR storyline.  (Blowing up the Earth is not what I'd consider a "proper" ending to such a story. It's more like giving your fans the finger.)


HOWEVER, and I think Kevin will confirm this... I've been open enough to admit that, IF-- and this is a very big if-- IF the book had been written and drawn properly, up to the standards of the VERY BEST issues-- such a story could have been interesting.  You'd just have needed someone like Dave Gibbons on art (or Stuart Immonen). You'd need TIGHT editing from an experienced editor, and you'd need CONSISTENT creative teams on every single issue, all working toward the same end.


The last thing you need is to try to introduce your audience to a whole new playing field-- and then, before they even have the slightest grasp of what's going on-- COMPLETELY CHANGE the field AGAIN, 6 issues in.


It's also a very bad sign when you have FILL-INS that are much better-written & drawn than the "regular" ongoing storyline.  (Matter-Eater Lad, Khund War, etc.)




"However, I agree with Henry that his presence in history and continuity should have been maintained, as Paul Levitz tried to do, and that Mike Carlin's ego can be blamed for a lot of the Legion's problems (as a lot of other crap at DC, come to that)."


Apart from Superboy not being a member anymore, Superboy was actually DEAD by the time Carlin pulled his S***.  So what was the point?  I've heard Keith (or was it Tom & Mary? Both?) wanted to do "flashback" stories featuring Superboy, Carlin got wind of it, and put a stop to it.  WHY?


SOME series need and deserve to exist in their own corner of the universe, or even in their own universe, separate from anything else a company publishes.  I feel LEGION is one of those.  Even the most die-hard fans I've seen online have been critical of the recent Paul Levitz work, because his latest run, while SIMILAR to Earth-1, was never QUITE Earth-1.  I think we DESERVE Earth-1... or NOTHING ELSE.


After all, they don't have to work it in to fit the "Post-Crisis" New DCU anymore... DO they?  (Now that they've STOPPED doing that universe...  haven't they?)

[narfstar]

Not doing current DC or Marvel. I credit  LSH in Adventure comics as getting me hooked on these crazy things.

[RickDeckard525]

If you've ever seen the TNG episode "Force of Nature," you know how bad it can get when you go astray from the original intentions of a show set in  a utopian future.

[jimmm kelly]

DC didn't see what side their bread was buttered on. LSH was easily as good as X-Men--in fact X-Men was eating their lunch.

The LSH stands as one pillar of comic book fandom. Without the Legion the foundations of comic book fandom would not have been set. Even when things got dark for the Legion--as they did many times--those fans stayed true and loyal. It's something that DC missed time and time again.

One can forgive Mort Weisinger or Murray Boltinoff or even Denny O'Neil for not getting it. But by the '80s, the DC brainiacs should have figured it out. Instead they continued to abuse Legion and kick their loyals fans in the teeth.

Levitz was somehow able to hold it together after the Crisis. Although, I didn't like his tendencies toward trendy hope-killing stories. And I never liked Mike DeCarlo's inks on the super-hero work I've seen. But after the end of that series and the beginning of the new one, there was no editor strong enough to fight for the team and keep it on track. I could accept the first few issues, but once they had to change continuity (due to those behind the scenes politics), I started not to care. I still bought the series for a couple more years, before giving up, but it wasn't the Legion I wanted.

The thing that baffles me is that DC kept doing these things to make some series like Superman a fan favourite. But in trying to do that, they completely ignored what was already a fan favourite and screwed it over.

But that was the end of the Legion. I prefer to think about the days when they were on top in the '60s, '70s, and early '80s.

[mr_goldenage]

I miss the old costumes of the early 1960's say like 1964 or '65. The 2 part Computo story where you had the whole Legion. Go back to your roots. Forget the rest of the crap. Start really fresh. Just my 2 cents

RB b a scannin fool.

[narfstar]

They lost me when they went to the punk look

[jimmm kelly]

My present feeling about comic books (and other things) is that we don't need to have everything explained. Explaining everything is one way to go--I really love BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS. But I think something about the Silver Age and Legion in particular is that so much was left to the fans to explain for themselves.

Paul Levitz having been a big fan was a bit too keen to shoe-horn in all the explanations he had come up with, once he became the Legion writer. I think it's more fun for all of us if we can have those as side discussions, but not in the comic book proper.

So bringing this around to the Legion, going forward from all the different changes to mainstream Superman continuity. My feeling is they could have kept all of the Legion continuity. They didn't need to explain how it fits with the rest of the DCU or if it realy does. They could have let fans conjecture and theorize about it, without ever having a definitive answer.

I think the only reason they needed to tie the Legion in with the rest of the DCU continuity was so they could participate in cross-title events. And the main reason for those is to promote the individual titles.

And there again I don't think those needed to be explained. There have been many team-ups over the years--in all different kinds of comic books--where it didn't make sense that one character could team-up with another, and it was never explained. And most readers were cool with that. You could make up your own explanation.

Leaving that space for the fans is one way of bringing them into the fictional universe. LOST is a better show when everything is not explained than when it is.

[profh0011]

Thanks for the responses, guys.  There's like a half-dozen different "Legion" threads over at Captain Comics, but I figured, why not JUST one?  This way you can discuss ANYTHING related to it.  Given the LSH history, a lot of that is just Uncle Mortie's era.  I have ALL 10 LEGION ARCHIVES books on my top shelf.  I got each one as they came out.  Including the last one, which had the horrible printing... where DC did the right thing.  They did a 2nd printing, which you could trade the bad one in for.  I did!

I appreciated what Paul Levitz did his 2nd time around, particularly with Keith Giffen.  But over the years, EVEN Levitz' work started to get me down in the long run.  And on his own, Giffen was TOTALLY out of control.  A shame Andy Helfer never got on the book.  Look what he (and Keith) did with JUSTICE LEAGUE !

My FAVORITE period has slowly become what was my first... Shooter, Swan, and Klein.  Or... Shooter & Mooney.  I wish Mooney had done more!  He was great.


I joined KLORDNY just about the time the book lost MOST of its longtime readers.  Maybe a year after I joined the group, ZERO HOUR hit, and most of our members WALKED and never came back.  Damn shame.  I actually liked the first 2 years of the "reboot"... but they just KEPT doing the "wrong" things.

Speaking of continuity & crossovers... I don't even quite remember when they did it, but one of the most fascinating crossovers was the Superman "lost in time" story.  he crossed over with the LSH 3 times-- in 3 COMPLETELY different eras!!  And it didn't seem to be a problem.

One thing I have never been able to understand, is DC's absolute REFUSAL to allow any genuine "Earth-1" stories.  STEVE ENGLEHART wrote a BATMAN series set on EARTH-1!  And DC cancelled it halfway thru, and have ever sinbce REFUSED to do the 2nd half, even when Paul Gulacy offerered to draw it.  At the time it came out, many younger fans said they were confused... they apparently didn't "get" thast it WAS NOT set in (then-) "current" DC continuity.

WHY do countless "Elseworlds" stories, each one set in a DIFFERENT universe, but REFUSE to do the "Earth-1" universe???

[jimmm kelly]

WHY do countless "Elseworlds" stories, each one set in a DIFFERENT universe, but REFUSE to do the "Earth-1" universe???

I never understood that either.

[narfstar]

I wonder how successful DC's SILVER AGE set of books was? I liked it. Something like what Marvel has done with the Ultimates. A set of books or even one title permanently feature DC as it was in the SA. The also did decades which I enjoyed overall. I would gladly buy a DC biweekly 64(or more) page anthology title THE DC SILVER AGE PRESENTS:
First issue of the month would feature JLA with an annual JSA crossover. Second issue in the month would rotate the LSH and Teen Titans. Each issue would have the rotating cast of DC characters FLASH, GL, Doom Patrol, Metal Men,Atom, Hawkman, Adam Strange and others with fans determining how much of each character we get to see.

[paw broon]

I was a big LSH fan right from the start.  There was something amazing about all those "new", different and colourful heroes and I couldn't get enough of it.  My memory now is blurred of when the changes came in, because I have probably tried to expunge the "modern, more serious" stuff from my head and  the move to glossy paper and , what seemed to me, the utter confusion of the storyline(s)? found me drifting away from the books. It was almost too much trouble to read them.  I have the first few archives but, as with most of the archives, I find the paper a turn off but much, much, better than nothing.
As for the Titans, I'm also a big fan and have a complete run of the "good" series.  You know, all that lovely Nick Cardy art. But, would I want a fortnightly anthology, even if it included  both features?  Not sure, unless it truly reflected the S.A. feel and was done on newsprint and I don't think we are going to get that.

[jimmm kelly]

The "Silver Age" skip week event, the "DC Comics Presents" Schwartz tribute event, and the more recent '70s, '80s, '90s "Retro" event--were all mixed bags, hits and misses. They were best when you had the original guys doing the material. Even if these guys weren't up to their level when they were at their peak--it was just amazing to see them doing it once again for old time's sake. And gratifying when they actually exceeded expectations.

What doesn't work for me is when they try to do something that is supposed to feel like a '60s or '70s story. Because they often make the story seem stupid and the art seem stupid. It's like deliberately hobbled. It's best when the writer and artist do their utmost best--it just happens to be set in that particular continuity.

There was a Silver Age style Hawkman and Hawkgirl story that appeared in a new 80 page giant, ten or fifteen years ago, I think--which got it just right. And I don't think there was any explanation given for why it was in that continuity--other than the theme of the giant (an Elseworlds?).

The Elseworlds Legion that Alan Davis did was half and half. It was nice to see him doing all of those characters, but the story itself didn't impress me. Davis would have made a great Legion artist--as his artwork looks a little like Neal Adams or Curt Swan, while at the same time looking a little like Kurt Schaffenberger or Dave Cockrum.

[narfstar]

I have so many favorite Legion stories all from their Adventure Comics run. The Legion had lots of members but they introduced even more cool ones in THE SUPER STALAG OF SPACE that and the Adult Legion stories are all time greatest comic books ever. No other series meant so much to me as LSH in Adventure. There is a reason that no matter what has been done to them fans remain. I remember wondering how could they ever beat the Fatal Five when Validus could beat Superboy. I thought the Fatal Five one of the most impressive villain groups in comics. I did not like the cover AC 365 but the story inside was great. To me Hamilton/Shooter runs are the true LSH. I never worried about who the artist was the writer was paramount to me.

[profh0011]

I forget how many years it's been now, but... some time back I had a dream of how I would "revive" and handle the original LSH if I somehow found myself in the position of editor.  This was years before the "real" Legion (or is it?) was brought back.

As much as I've enjoyed (or been frustrated with) soap-opera storytelling over the years, I find the focus on soap almost to the exclusion of well-structured stories has become tiresome.  One of the best series of the last 20 years (in my view) was SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE.  Every story was a 4-part epic-- kinda like DOCTOR WHO in its prime.  Stories, and story structure, was paramount, but, you DID manage to have "continuity" and "character development".  They just never let it get in the way of the more IMPORTANT stuff.

I envisioned a series where you could have rotating writers or artists, each doing a complete story, all under the TIGHT control of a single-minded editor.  No one person's ego would be allowed to derail things, as the main focus would be maintaining the integrity of the series as a whole.

I actually envisioned getting some of the "classic" artists to come back for at least one story each (4 issues).  I would have started with whoever was the earliest that was still around.  I had Jim Mooney in mind.  You can see how far back I was thinking of this... when did he pass away?  I'd have followed him up with Dave Cockrum (ditto), Mike Grell, Jim Sherman, Jimmy Janes... about the only guys I would probably avoid would be Joe Staton (too cartoony), Pat Broderick (his art has continued to get worse year by year) and-- frankly-- Keith Giffen (he performed WAY too much DAMAGE to the series over too many years-- enough is enough!!).  I'd also love to see storylines illustrated by Steve Lightle, Dan Jurgens, Greg LaRocque, Dave Gibbons, Stuart Immonen, Chris Sprouse...

Mind you, I could also see getting some new artists involved as well.  But maybe only every other story.  I'd still like the focus to be on "classic" artists-- 4 issues at a shot.  This way nobody gets burned out.

I would also pick up exactly where the series left off just before CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.  Yes, I've gotten so disgusted with all the changes, that I'd much prefer that NOTHING that happened after CRISIS be included in the history at all.  After all-- what we saw in the Levitz series post-CRISIS was not "Earth-1"-- it was "the new DCU".

This way, you could not only have Superboy-- and eventually-- SuperMAN-- as a member-- you could also have Supergirl-- THE REAL ONE-- still alive.  (That was actually something Paul Levitz wanted to do, except it was nixed by the powers-that-be at the time.)

My friend (and fellow Klordny member) Kevin Hawkins loves to fantasize and come up with ideas of this sort for all kinds of comics, TV shows and movies...  well, this one was mine!