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Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden

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topic icon Author Topic: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden  (Read 546 times)

SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2024, 10:20:29 PM »

The Shadow #83

There is no good reason why Inspector Drummond, or Sir Hugh, to not realize that Jimmy Gray and The Shadow are the same person after he switched identities in the darkened train car.


That Phantom ring looked nice... I wonder how many beaten up kids had Phantom Skull marks?  ;)
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2024, 10:29:44 PM »

Quote
I wonder how many beaten up kids had Phantom Skull marks?   


That would mean that the bullies could read. Not in my experience with them.
I think more recently  you could also get the good luck ring .
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2024, 10:44:46 PM »

You guys know everything; when did it all begin with team ups?

I think the first meeting of heroes is considered The Shield meeting The Wizard in Shield-Wizard Comics (not sure which number).

The First crossover was the Sub-Mariner fighting the Human Torch in 3 issues of Marvel Mystery Comics #8-10.

The first hero group was the Justice Society of America in All-Star Comics #3.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2024, 11:10:41 PM »

Morgus said,
Quote
In that same way, did Dr Strange and Thor ever team up, or were they just in the same issue together with different adventures?
You guys know everything; [Ah, No!]when did it all begin with team ups? Do we count WORLDS’ FINEST with Superman and Batman?

Speaking of anniversaries, Marvel Superheroes started with FF # ! in 1961. So we have had 63 years of stories.
Pretty much every combination has been covered. So yes, Dr Strange and Thor have crossed paths.
The first team-ups would have been 'the All-Winners squad' and 'The Justice Society' where the heroes would come together, get a challenge, then have solo adventures and come together at the end of the story.
Gardner Fox used this for the Justice League.
Marvel was the real instigator of change. Stan Lee clearly saw featuring 'guest stars' as good marketing.
Spiderman met the Fantastic Four in his first issue. The first serial ( two part) was the battle between the Thing and the Hulk in Fantastic Four # 25, # 26.
Quote
The first Thing vs. Hulk fight was significant not just because it was the first battle between Marvel's two "strong man" characters, but because it was actually the first crossover in the history of the Marvel Universe period! Amazingly, it was actually a tie between the Hulk's guest appearance in Fantastic Four #12 and the Fantastic Four's guest appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #1 (both books came out the same week in late 1962), but it still counts!

Batman/Superman ? How about 1952?
I'll let you read about it for yourselves.
https://www.polygon.com/comics/21404159/batman-superman-first-crossover-comic-issue-dc-comics
Scroll down to
The time Batman and Superman met on a double-booked cruise.

Enjoy!

           
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2024, 11:14:45 PM »

Quote
The First crossover was the Sub-Mariner fighting the Human Torch in 3 issues of Marvel Mystery Comics #8-10.   

Good point - and if that was a top seller, Stan would have remembered that.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2024, 12:36:23 AM »

1) Hell Rider. #2
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=77915

This book is notable for several reasons.
1/ Not only was it the inspiration for Marvel's Ghost Rider, the writer for both was Gary Friedrich and an assist by Roy Thomas on Ghost Rider. HellRider was published in 1971 and Ghost Rider in 1972, so HellRider must have gone PD quite fast.
Oh, by the way,
Quote
First Ghost Rider in Marvel Spotlight #5 Goes for Record $264,000 

Knew I should have kept that!
So, the story!
I haven't read Issue 1, just used the link to #2 that Greg posted. So I am working out the story without the info from Issue #1. 
Art wise, the excellent team of Andru and Esposito have decided to shade the art, this being a black and white book. For mine, this was not a good idea.
Oh dear! He takes a SuperSoldier serum. Original. 'I decided not to tell anyone" really, the government wouldn't keep tabs on you?
He becomes a 'superhero' to 'do something' for a girlfriend who hooked him on drugs?
[Indirectly alluded to, because this is 1971] Not a good start. 
Since this is not a comic it's a BnW magazine, and 'not marketed at children', Editorial clearly said, find a way to include as many semi-nude women as possible.
The story comes to a dull end, so disappointing.
The Wild Bunch
Motorbikes again, this time a gang. Better art from Syd Shores than he the few he did for Marvel at that time.
Why would a detective 'team-up' with a bike gang? 
There also seems to have been a directive from editorial - ratchet up the violence.
Not a really interesting story. And yes, wildly improbable. 
The Butterfly
Before I get to the story,
Explanation
https://pdsh.fandom.com/wiki/Butterfly
Quote
Skywald did not include a proper copyright notice on its issues of Hell-Rider (it did not consist of the word "copyright"/the symbol for copyright followed by the year of publication and the name of the copyright holders) and thus, because of copyright law at the time, became public domain upon release. [Aha!]
Butterfly was the first Black superheroine in comics.
The Hell-Rider issues were mature-audience magazines not covered by comic books' Comics Code Authority.
   
Nice Art. I wonder if Dave Cockrum was influenced by this when he designed Storm's first costume?
The female villain doesn't appear to have a name, even though she has a costume.
The bad guys are the KKK but under another name.
Gary Friedrich seems to have trouble adapting to stories with fewer pages. [11 pages here] because yet again, we have an abrupt and unsatisfying endimg.
Skipping the last story.
I'm very happy Greg picked this book for the reading group. Good to give our Skywald books more exposure.
If Skywald books are all PD, then there are comic books that would be available to CB+?
cheers!               
« Last Edit: August 25, 2024, 07:03:09 AM by The Australian Panther »
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Morgus

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2024, 03:26:33 AM »

‘Panther, the sea cruise with Batman and Superman was a blast! Thanks. All the team ups listed are way cool, but there is a large part of me that would have loved to have seen The Spirit and Plastic Man do an episode together. For real.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2024, 07:06:38 AM »

In recent times there have been 'the Spirit' team-ups, but I can't find reference to them. The AI isn't up to it yet. So I don't know if there has been a Plasitic Man team-up.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2024, 07:46:41 AM »

2) The Shadow
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=31826
Cover
Why did FREW consistently use a dark blue background on their covers?
If Jimmy uses a rubber mask, how does he keep his hair so neat? Brylcreem?
I always enjoy this character, but there is really not a lot to distinguish him.
Echoes of Batman and the [US] Shadow, and maybe the Spirit, or the first Blue Beetle or Black Hood?
Did Limpy Olsen ever meet Matches Malone?
'A machine gun in the form of a booby trap." how about 'A booby Trap in the form of a Machine Gun'
No real explanation as to why the policeman who 'Bursts in' didn't get killed.
Why does a detective in disguise have to be 'a Shambling figure'?
Oh, wait, Sherlock Holmes did that, didn't he?
Since all the action on page #8 happens in pitch darkness, after which the inspector says,
'you had a narrow escape and you can thank the Shadow.' he must know that Jimmy is the Shadow.
" Sir Hugh will ride past our headquarters. I will raise my hand as a signal. Then you will kill him"
Huh? Why?
Shadow says, 'It's only a matter of minutes before Sir Hugh's car is due to pass the building where the assassins wait.... '  How can he know that?
Also there is an assassin with a gun in the building. Wasn't Major Grant supposed to be the assassin?
lets read on.
From page # 19 'Sir Hugh's car is unarmed.' What! After an assassination attempt? 
But enough! Adolescent readers don't much care about that kind of detail. This is issue # 83, so they have been buying the book. I enjoyed it too.
Thanks Greg, for your choices.     
Cheers!       
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2024, 08:32:42 AM »

Hell Rider 2

Hell Rider Story #1
The Associate Editor was Herschel Waldman.  Was he Israel Waldman's (of I. W. Comics) son?  I had no idea what American comic books look like after the mid 1960s, or so.  The painted front cover looks like an adventure magazine. The inside pages look like European Graphic Novel style.  So, he's a well-meaning fellow, who had bad luck of his uncle being a crook.  He killed the guy so he would stop hurting innocent people.  So now he is hunted by the police.  He's a superhero with super strength that comes and goes without warning.  So, he is not only not invincible, but he becomes very vulnerable, often at the wrong time.  That reminds me of Dr. Jekyll becoming the monster, Hyde, and returning to normal without warning, after he'd used his potion too much, and also a similar effect of visibility and invisibility for The Invisible Man, after he'd used HIS potion too much.  There are some things that Man should not fool with.  Interesting that he ends up having to fight a villain who also took the same drug that gave the hero super strength, but it not only gave the villain strength, but also turned him into a monster with a passion for murdering women.  He must have been a woman-hater before taking the drug. 

The quality of the artwork is good, but I don't like the style.  It's way too modern for my taste.  The author tries to make everything point towards the nightclub owner (older brother of the hero's friend) appear to be the murdering monster.  And then at the story's end the younger brother , who hates him, but is his employee turns out to be the murderer, out of the clear blue sky.  This is very unfair to the readers, not providing any clues, so the reader never had a chance to suspect different characters.  If I submitted this to any of my editors, they'd have all handed it back telling me to add a few scenes providing some subtle clues, that the younger brother has some connection to the drug.  Maybe the reader might suspect that he is putting the drug in his brother's drinks to get him to murder people, so he can take over his business empire after the brother is put in jail, or executed for mass murdering.  It is not good to anger your readership by being unfair, and having the reader feel cheated.  Maybe this is part of the reason that this series ran only 2 issues.  Also, wioth all those gruesome murders of the young women at the nightclub, it's impossible to believe that they would agree to stay in his employ, and also stay 24 hours a day in that building where several murders occurred.  While they were safe, and the murderer wasn't around, they all would have quit, and tried to get away from there as fast and far as possible. 

The Wild Bunch
Nice to see they had a token African-American in their motorcycle gang, who fought against crime and cooperated with police.  At least it was a gesture.  But this was 1971. I don't remember the general public still calling them "Negroes" (except in The South).  I thought it had changed to "Blacks" by the mid '60s.  This is sort of a "Robin Hood" story, like Hell's Angels offering to protect people from criminals, and cooperating with police to help keep the peace or catch criminals.  Some of the violence in both stories is quite graphic, with necks being cut open and bloody.  I would have expected this kind of thing in Men's adventure magazines that were located on high shelves in newsstands and book shops that children wouldn't be able to access, NOT in regular Superhero floppy comic books.  A lot of kids could have gotten 60 cents together to buy a comic book.  As it was considered an adult magazine, I assume it was in a section of book stores where children couldn't go, and in newsstands it was up on high shelves. maybe behind the cashier/clerk.  I wonder why Skywald made the grievous error of not placing a notice of the copyright on the Hell-Rider books?  They must have known about their state's and USA's copyright laws.  Or did they issue ALL their comic books without the notice, and they ALL are now in The PD?

The Butterfly
A female superhero who wears a mask, giant butterfly-style wings, superhero tights, and a jet pack to allow her to fly!  And she is an African-American.  So the "token" description can be removed, especially as the head police officer on the case in this story is also African-American.  A US senator turns out to have been the head of a Ku-Kux-Klan type of racist organisation, that plans to get The African American community in their city, or state, to hate all "White people", so that will lead to racial strife that will end up ridding their state, or ALL of USA of Black People.  An ambitious plot. They are thwarted by The Butterfly. 

Hell-Rider Story 2 - Shanghai .....70's  Style
Very short.  Too large a plot scope to fit inside 10 pages.  It all moves much too fast. 

Overall Analysis
This book is just not my cup of tea.  Too modern, too much of what I lived through in real life while in The USA.  Not my idea of entertainment.  It just throws in front of my face The World's current problems. If that becomes one's entertainment, there is no rest from it.  I don't mind well-written crime stories that are well flushed out, having settings, so you know where they are happening.  Building up of characters including their motivations is necessary for identifying with them.  Issues that affect people in their daily lives, or in times of crisis can be interesting and good to think about, and storytelling provides that.  But it affects the reader much more if we can see how the protagonist is like us, so we can put ourselves in his or her shoes. The story must be paced in a way that allows that information to be given to the reader and digested, and so that suspense can be built up to a creschendo at the climax, and thought about to see its relevance to the reader's life, after the epilogue.

Comic book storytelling is a complicated art, requiring cramming in all those elements I've listed above in a small amount of room.  It is more difficult than writing an all-text short story, and novels, as well, at least in that context.  Of course, writing full novels brings other problems in that comic book space precludes even considering.  As I've stated many times these publishers that insisted upon having several different stories in short books are fighting their own product.  I always prefer at least 20 pages to really be able to tell a "story".  The 10 pages and less are really, to me, showing a vignette, or outlining a scenario, or telling an extended joke or depicting a gag.  The artwork was fairly good, but can't uplift badly-paced stories, some of which have weak, unrevealed, or unbelievable character motivations, and/or unbelievable events.
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gregjh

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2024, 11:04:00 AM »

OK time to review my own picks.

Hell Rider: Night of the Ripper

OK so let's see what we have: Some familiar things like the quips of the hero as he fights the new baddie and the occasional spoken explanation of what is happening in the picture ("He's stronger than me", etc.). However, we also have way more sexually suggestive imagery than I'm used to on CB+, I was wondering about that but I saw someone explained this was not actually classed as a comic so it could get away with more. I don't know how new the "super serum" was in that era but of course we've all seen it so many times now and remarkably the plot here is very similar to the truly awful Moribus in cinemas a couple of years back. The plot wasn't great in Hell Rider and that tells us all we know need to know about the effort that went into  Moribus.  It was interesting to see this had the same writer as Ghost Rider, the inspiration is clear.


The (Aus) Shadow

Art like a Film Noir style director's cut. I like it. Script was at least following an arc. All the tropes are here: the black mask nobody questions, the plot being spoken out loud and typed out and left on the floor. I like The Shadow though and thank him for his dark, pessimistic but stoic sense of patriotism. It would be interesting to see how he would perform in a longer, more complex plot.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2024, 05:55:47 AM »

Robb:-
Quote
The Associate Editor was Herschel Waldman.  Was he Israel Waldman's (of I. W. Comics) son?

Inside front cover states, 'Publishers,Israel Waldman and Sol Brodsky.'
More interesting to me, it also states, ' Special Effects, Bill Everett, Carlos Garzon' What special effects?

cheers! 
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2024, 07:16:21 AM »

More interesting to me, it also states, ' Special Effects, Bill Everett, Carlos Garzon' What special effects?

According to Rich Buckler, Bill Everett redrew the faces in the Butterfly story as Israel Waldman thought they looked too black.

Ummmm, yeah... presumably Carlos also did some retouching, but I don't know what story.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2024, 07:19:23 AM by SuperScrounge »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2024, 08:21:36 AM »

The Shadow

I'm not sure I've got a lot to say that others haven't already. A few people have picked out some plot holes, and I agree, but here's my two cents' worth.

Cover - Great action shot with the Shadow swinging the punch, but the woman's reaction doesn't seem right. Looks like she's saying 'Oh my' and posing for a swimsuit shot.

One-page prologue - I found it helpful as this is the first Shadow comic I've read. Regular readers could just skip over it, but newbies have some indication of what's going on.

p. 3 - I found it a bit hard to follow the sequence here. I assumed the two men got out of the limousine and went inside (frames 2 and 3), but then later, the limousine is going along a back street and someone gets in. Is it the same limousine? It was also a nice touch that the flower seller pops back up later to give some info.

p. 6 - Would professionals be so slack as to leave a piece of paper behind with vital secret info on it?

p. 8 - As others have mentioned, Drummond would have to be pretty thick not to realise that Jimmy is the Shadow. So maybe he does know and just doesn't let on?

p. 10 - Why were the Parisians cheering Sir Hugh's car?

pp. 17-18 - Ah, the old 'pretend to be dead and then attack' trope. But if the soldier rushed over to finish him off in case he was alive, why wasn't he more cautious on approach? Then the Shadow says, 'That's an old trick. They can't have heard of it over here yet.' Um, since we've had WWII and are now in the middle of a Cold War, I'm pretty they would have known all about this trick, Shadow!

p. 19 -As others have said, I thought it was ridiculous that Sir Hugh's car was unarmed when there had already been an assassination attempt.

The art was okay, but I thought the people were a bit flat, especially the facial expressions. For example, on p. 21, we have the dialogue: 'Trapped like rats in a trap' and 'They'll blast us apart with that 76 mm gun', but the speakers show no emotion.

Overall - Not a bad comic, and would have appealed to people's interest in spies and the Cold War, but a few plot holes.

The Phantom's Ring - Is it my imagination or does the ring in 'The Phantom's Mask' ad look a bit creepier than other Phantom rings I've seen advertised? I wonder how many kids tried it out in the playground and sent friends home with Phantom marks?

Overall, I did enjoy seeing this Australian comic, though it probably wouldn't have become one of my favourites.  Interesting, but for me it wasn't on the same level as the Aussie Catman and Captain Strato.

Thanks for the selections, Greg.

Cheers

QQ

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neil meikle

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2024, 06:25:37 PM »

While crossovers and team ups on here are rare they are not unknown either.
        Quality Comics did a Police Comics and Feature Comics crossover that teamed up The Spider Widow and her sidekick The Raven With The Phantom Lady. In this story all three realise and admit that they're comic book characters, if you like the fourth wall being broken. It can be read in its entirety in both of these archives,
     https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=29778
      https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=54497
      At Charlton Comics in issue #5 of Blue Beetle he teams up with The Question (at least as Vic Sage).
       https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=30656
      In Thunderbolt, The Sentinels(themselves a superhero team) team up with Sarge Steel.
        https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=90462
      Finally if you want superhero teams we've got every issue of Tower Comics Thunder Agents.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2024, 01:13:41 AM by neil meikle »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2024, 01:02:46 AM »


While crossovers and team ups on here are rare they are not unknown either.
        Quality Comics did a Police Comics crossover that teamed up The Spider Widow and her sidekick The Raven With The Phantom Lady. In this story all three realise and admit that they're comic book characters, if you like the fourth wall being broken. It can be read in its entirety in both of these archives,
     https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=29778
      https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=54497
      At Charlton Comics in issue #5 of Blue Beetle he teams up with The Question (at least as Vic Sage).
       https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=30656
      In Thunderbolt, The Sentinels(themselves a superhero team) team up with Sarge Steel.
        https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=90462
      Finally if you want superhero teams we've got every issue of Tower Comics Thunder Agents.


Thanks for that, Neil. They might be good selections for one of the reading group fortnights. I came across Thunder Agents recently and though they might be worth a look.

Cheers

QQ
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2024, 06:49:07 AM »

For a real oddball cameo there's the Stratosphere Jim story in Crackajack Funnies #30 https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=20676 (page 27 of the dropdown) where The Masked Pilot from Popular Comics just shows up to say hi to Jim.

No actual story reason or team-up, he's just there.

The editors even missed out on the opportunity to plug Popular Comics where The Masked Pilot's series ran.

Kids who didn't even read Popular Comics must have been scratching their heads wondering where this guy came from.
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