[crashryan]

They got around the rule about not advertising to kids by saying it was an ‘ADULT’ show. Hardy har har.

The weird thing is that The Flintstones was originally positioned as an adult show. It came on at an "adult" hour (evening rather than afternoon) and I vaguely remember as a kid reading in TV Guide or somewhere that the producers hoped the show would expand their audience beyond kids. I don't know whether they felt their audience-expanding goals were met, but the show certainly was a hit.

Even as a kid I recognized that The Flintstones was a knock-off of The Honeymooners, which my folks watched occasionally. Those were less litigious times, but I wonder if lawyers sparred behind the scenes.

[Robb_K]

I've been absent from here for the last week, some of the reasons were to do with things going on with my own life but also I've not been happy about my own actions. And considering where do I go from here.
Kingcat was quite upset - to state it mildly -(1) and I was myself considering offering Mark my resignation from the reading group.
I take the liberty of quoting the gist of the last PM Kingcat sent me, as I concur and agree absolutely.

for now I'll stick with the group and see how things work out.

Now I have no intention of dissing your political viewpoint, but I was disappointed that you'd called me out specifically when crash was the first to display liberal tendencies and I was just agreeing with him.  If you're going to act as Moderator for the Reading Group then you only needed to ask us both to refrain from political discussion as we were going off topic. But then perhaps your reaction was no less emotional than mine?

I honestly don't enjoy this kind of conflict and I will do my best to moderate myself in future, so let's try to bury the hatchet and see if we can continue to work together without friction.

 
I think he nailed it there. And I make the same commitment. And offer my apology .
I repeat Kingcat's words and state it as a principle we should adhere to in our [sometimes wonderfully wide-ranging] discussions.
(2) Let's

endeavor to refrain from political discussions and [/b]going off topic.

That is at least in the open forum. I don't believe in censorship and don't want to restrict speech entirely, so I think I'm on safe ground if I say, that if we feel the need we can use PM's, and even there, lets respect each others viewpoints.   

(1) I'd hate to see you (or any of our other members) leave, Panther, over an issue that's already been solved.

(2) I'm all for us avoiding discussion of politics and religion.  And when we otherwise go off-topic, I'm all for letting it go on, IF it is a tangentially-related subject, and is moved to a new thread in its appropriate CB+ Forum section, once we see that it is getting too unwieldy, and starting to take over the thread.  But, I'd hate to miss out on some of the great tangential discussions we've had.  So. let's just keep aware, and announce that this new, off-topic topic will be moved to its own thread, started by X person, and refer participants to the section where it will be located.

[SuperScrounge]

Some are known to most of us,often by Western adaptions [Akira, NinJa Scroll, Ghost in the Shell, Evangelion,]  but most of them are not.
They have yet to get to Television series.

Wait, they talked about an Evangelion movie without talking about the TV show??? As I understand it The End of Evangelion movie was done to remake the final two episodes of the series. The idea that someone would discuss the movie without talking about the series baffles me. It's like discussing a peanut butter cup, but only talking about the chocolate and not the peanut butter.

[SuperScrounge]

Even as a kid I recognized that The Flintstones was a knock-off of The Honeymooners, which my folks watched occasionally. Those were less litigious times, but I wonder if lawyers sparred behind the scenes.

I believe Jackie Gleason wanted to sue and he was talked out of it. I think the argument was that The Flintstones was so popular that it was worried he would look bad for suing.

And since we're off topic anyway, the original title for the Flintstones was The Flagstones, but that was objected to by Mort Walker of the Hi & Lois strip, since the last name of Hi & Lois was Flagstone.

[The Australian Panther]

Wait, they talked about an Evangelion movie without talking about the TV show??? As I understand it The End of Evangelion movie was done to remake the final two episodes of the series.

The reviews in the book are of Movies only, which is what I was trying to say, not that the movies were discussed out of context. 
I haven't read everything in the book yet, , but I have read the material on the 'Cowboy Bebop' anime movie. Obviously you can't discuss that without talking about the context of the TV show and they do.
I am sure the same holds true re the Evangelion anime movie.     

[The Australian Panther]

Was ‘The Flintstones’ Actually Based on ‘The Honeymooners?’
by Matthew Trzcinski
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/was-the-flintstones-actually-based-on-the-honeymooners.html/
Hard to believe otherwise really.

"The real connection between ‘The Honeymooners’ and Joseph Barbera

Barbera hired some of the writers of The Honeymooners, Herbert Finn and Sydney Zelinka. MeTV reports Barbera paid them $3,000 only to deem their scripts subpar. He felt they were overly wordy and lacked enough action for an animated sitcom."   

[paw broon]

A few things. First, I've no idea about The Honeymooners.  I don't recall ever seeing it on our tv and I don't recall any of my pals speaking about it.  So I couldn't say if there's a relationship between it and The Flintstones. I was a big fan of The Flintstones and, at the time, didn't realise there were connections with fags.
As we didn't have colour tv till  about 1970, any cartoons, apart from what I saw at the pictures, were watched in B&W.
As for Off-Topic, I seem to do it all the time. Apologies. But off-topic, or going off at a tangent more likely, is or can be a good thing as it throws up other avenues for discussion and research.
Re. Jack Cole,
I'm nowhere near as expert as many of you in what is on the page and how it's done so if it's early, looser work, I often don't notice. I am simply a Plastic Man fan as it's crazy, imaginative, colourful and funny, and I enjoy Lady Luck - I've been reading a selection of her stories.

[Morgus]

Remember that scene in THE SIMPSONS where they go to court over Itchy and Scratchy? Roger Meyers Jr. says ‘animation was BUILT on plagiarism'. Has The Flintstones linked with The Honeymooners, Top Cat with Sgt. Bilko, then does a devastating rundown; “Huckleberry Hound, Chief Wiggum, Yogi Bear? Ha! Andy Griffith, Edward G Robinson, and Art Carney.”

By the way, another cartoon character they tried to use to get around the adults only rules. Mr Magoo was used in advertising for Stag beer.

[paw broon]

Now there's a show I just don't get,  Simpsons.  I don't find it in any way funny, the "jokes" are poor and telegraphed and it's poor stuff. Despite trying it a few times, I couldn't see it at all.

[Morgus]

hey, paw’, remember BLOCKBUSTER? My local video store owner would never recommend a comedy. Ever. He always said that comedy was more personal than drama. Made sense. Jerry Lewis could get the first wife laughing her head off. Me? Nothing.
For mom and dad it was Roadrunner. Mom thought it was dumb that the coyote never got the bird and it would barely be a meal if he DID. Dad said that was why it was FUNNY. Mom would just shake her head.

[crashryan]

crash was the first to display liberal tendencies

Indeed, I was the first to speak out and somehow K1ngcat became the target. It's difficult always to hold one's tongue in an age when silence so often means consent. Agreed, CB+ does not need to descend into the chaos of other forums. I'm willing to abide by the "avoid politics" rule and I hope it will be applied uniformly, meaning avoiding moaning about "wokeness," "cancel culture," and other political catchphrases.

[The Australian Panther]

The Flintstones was originally positioned as an adult show.

It was positioned in an adult time slot in Australia and was hugely successful. 
Paw said,

As we didn't have color TV till  about 1970

Was that the UK or just Scotland?
I think we had it a little earlier in Queensland, but we were behind Sydney and Melbourne.
Fascinating to see, on YouTube, episodes of shows in color that you remember only in BnW!
Morgus said,

‘animation was BUILT on plagiarism'.

  Oh not just animation. Hollywood eats itself.
Top Cat, of whom I am a big fan, was inspired not just by "The Phil Silvers Show with Arnold Stang imitating Sgt Bilko's voice for the titular character. " but also, "Top Cat and his gang were inspired by the East Side Kids, roguish, street-smart characters from a series of 1940s B movies."
Not only that but, "Maurice Gosfield, who played Private Duane Doberman in The Phil Silvers Show, provided the voice for Benny the Ball in Top Cat, and Benny's chubby appearance was based on Gosfield's."
So, not only plagurism, but incestuous too?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Cat
Morgus said,

Mr Magoo was used in advertising for Stag beer.

What most US citizens [and UK citizens] are unaware of is the amount of [often inappropriate] advertising work  that copyright characters and well-known 'stars' do in foreign markets, like Japan, India and South America to name a few markets.
Morgus said,

Jerry Lewis could get the first wife laughing her head off. Me? Nothing.

I'm with you there. Also, while I admire Lucille Ball in many ways, the Lucy Show left me cold. 

Mom thought it was dumb that the coyote never got the bird and it would barely be a meal if he DID.

Well, that's just the premise that the gags are built on.
Sylvester never gets Tweety, Elmer never gets Bugs, Tom never gets Jerry!  And we always identify with the underdog [ or cat or rabbit] 

[K1ngcat]

Well the fortnight is over and QQ has already posted a new topic, so let's forget our human frailties for now and wrap this one up. Thanks to everyone who commented on Jack Cole and his works, anybody interested in seeing any more will only need to search the site ,though I have a shrewd suspicion that those who are really interested already know where to find his best stuff!

All the best
K1ngcat

[The Australian Panther]

Now, back to the book selections. Remember them?
Don't know much about Cole's personal life, but I am an admirer of his work on Plastic Man.   
Police Comics 11
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19820
I'm stunned by that splash!
I'm wondering what my reaction to it would have been if I had picked it up at the age of 10 or 11?
You have just got to turn the page.
Didn't enjoy the story as much as experience it, there is a kind of incoherence about it - doesn't entirely make sense, more so than most 'long underwear' stories.
I think Eisner's Spirit had to be an influence in Cole's storytelling.
I am only going to concentrate on Cole's work in my comments, but the 711 story makes me think that George Brenner's work would be interesting to do a Reading Group on.     
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=20032
Smash Comics 72
Midnight - The beautiful bovine!
Plotwise, this is straight-forward but Cole's art gives it another dimension.
The detail in the backgrounds, the facial expressions and the crown scenes and the romance-struck cow make you laugh.
Midnight mostly takes a backseat and most of the action is by the rest of the regular cast.
He doesn't just have Midnight, a character who is almost a clone of the Spirit, but the story layout and characterization is also reminiscent of Eisner.     
The Killer from Saturn
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=71513
Reading this straight after Cole's work on Plastic Man and Midnight, it's hard to take it seriously. 
He adopts a darker style of art and goes for a more noir approach, but it doesn't quite work.
I don't know what he was striving for visually, but the monster looks like a bad Cosplay costume.
It strikes me that however weird Jack Kirby's monsters, they all look biologically realistic, not plain silly. This monster looks ridiculous rather than scary. The story tho, is excellent and memorable.Although quite brutal.
Goddess of Murder
Well, this story is just plain nasty, and so is the art. The 'statue' of Kali is suitably grotesque. The twist at the end of the story just doesn't really work, it's not suspenseful and the characters are not portrayed with enough detail to give us any sympathy for them.
Cole's work in these four stories goes from one extreme to another. I have always admired his Plastic Man work but now I have a feeling that he may have been a seriously disturbed character.
Thanks KingCat for the opportunity to look closer at Cole's work.
I will still enjoy Cole's Plastic Man work, it is unique.       

 

[paw broon]

hey, paw’, remember BLOCKBUSTER? My local video store owner would never recommend a comedy. Ever. He always said that comedy was more personal than drama. Made sense. Jerry Lewis could get the first wife laughing her head off. Me? Nothing.
For mom and dad it was Roadrunner. Mom thought it was dumb that the coyote never got the bird and it would barely be a meal if he DID. Dad said that was why it was FUNNY. Mom would just shake her head.

Morgus, I remember Blockbuster, and not the Batman foe.  Humour is a  personal thing.  I love Abbott and Costello, my Wife can't stand them.
I just don't get Alan Partridge, at all.  I can't see what's remotely funny but friends rave about him.
Steptoe and Son repeats are on Radio 4 Extra  and there was a time we thought they were hilarious.  now, we find them difficult to listen to.

[Robb_K]

Paw said,

As we didn't have color TV till  about 1970

Was that the UK or just Scotland? [/b]
I think we had it a little earlier in Queensland, but we were behind Sydney and Melbourne.
Fascinating to see, on YouTube, episodes of shows in color that you remember only in BnW!

[/quote]
The UK (At least England, is purported to have started with colour TV in 1967.  Scotland didn't get it effectively until 1970 (first broadcast Dec 13, 1969). Canada started in 1966.  West Germany 1967.  I was in West Berlin in summer of 1967, when the convention to introduce colour TV to West Germany was going on.  So, I couldn't get a hotel room, as absolutely none were available.  Even the youth hostels were totally booked for weeks.  Private homeowners were asked to rent out rooms in their homes to accommodate the shelterless people.  I ended up in the home of a widow of an SS Officer, who had photos on her walls of Adolph Hitler shaking her husband's hand, congratulating him on getting a medal.  Needless to say, I didn't offer the information that I was Jewish, and was related to many Holocaust victims.

I read that Australia finally started colour TV broadcasts in 1974.  The US was purported to have started sporadic broadcasts of one-time colour programmes in 1954, but only a handful of wealthy people had colour sets before 1958, or so. But most normal people only started getting them around 1960, when a halfway decent amount of regular colour broadcasts started.