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READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24

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topic icon Author Topic: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24  (Read 2496 times)

crashryan

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2023, 03:16:22 AM »

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Also - and I'm guessing here, your rate of pay might increase with the increase in the number of papers that took your strip.

The arrangement at the syndicate I worked for seems to have been fairly common. This was 1980, so things may have been different in the old days. If you were hired to do a licensed strip, as I was, you were paid a weekly stipend. Newspapers paid a weekly subscription fee to the syndicate. The syndicate collected that money, subtracted your (and the writer's, if applicable) pay, then subtracted production expenses: the cost of printing proof sheets, postage to mail them to member papers, etc. If there was anything left over it would be split with the artists/writers. That's how you made extra money, if you did.

Like the Panther said, the more papers you appeared in, the likelier you were to make money. The extra production cost was more than made up for by the additional subscription fees. There was a catch, though. The syndicate charged papers according to circulation. A big circulation paper might pay hundreds of dollars a week to run a strip, while some podunk daily with a tiny circulation might pay only $25 for the same strip. Your feature could appear in a hundred tiny papers and barely make any money, yet you could appear in just two or three big name papers and clear a tidy sum.

I don't know if it was true for all syndicates, but where I worked the creator-owned strips had the same arrangement minus the weekly stipend. You earned only what your strip collected each week less production costs. If your feature grossed the syndicate $200 in a week and their production costs were $180, you earned $20 that week. Fortunately they didn't stick you for the loss if the strip didn't make back costs. It was a gamble for both of you. The syndicate gambled that your strip would catch on and make a profit. You gambled that your strip would catch on so you'd get paid.

I got to know a fellow doing a strip that was barely breaking even. He lived by working a full-time job and did the strip evenings and weekends. He desperately wanted his strip to succeed and hung on way too long. Some weeks he'd clear five bucks. Literally, five bucks. Finally he and the syndicate agreed the strip was never going to catch on, and it was canceled.
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Robb_K

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2023, 05:29:22 AM »


Q.Q. and ‘Crash, I keep thinking I’ll BUY one of those racks and stack it with Charlton and DC and Marvel spooky comix and just GIVE THEM AWAY  at Halloween one year. Probably cheaper than the candy and less tooth decay!
Wow. Glad to see The Phantom is still kicking. That’s cool. My kids will love it. They were the only ones who liked the Billy Zane movie.
Hey, Super? There was Dennis the Menace in comic book forum you mentioned that was also published over here. Beetle Bailey was also a comic book for a while. Archie and Disney and Warner Brothers both proudly ran with comic books and strips since the 50’s. Superman. Spiderman. Star Wars. Tarzan. Mandrake overseas. Phantom. Who am I missing?

Is there a difference seen by the profession between the two mediums? Frazetta and Wood went happily back and forth between working on strips and books. Is it just a case of opportunity or is one looked on as somehow ‘better’ than another?

I don't think comic artists had much of a choice.  Other than when the newly burgeoning comic book industry was starting out in the very late 1930s and beginning of the 1940s, and The new comic book publishers needed to attract artists and writers away from other related fields, comic book pay has generally been fairly low compared to what they could have gotten from being the primary artist on a hit comic strip, or drawing book illustrations, or working at the higher animation positions, or drawing in the advertising industry.  I would guess that starting near the end of the 1940s, comic book artists have had to supplement their "labour of love" comic book work with higher-paying drawing jobs in the tangential industries I mentioned above(including writing positions and art editor positions), just to survive.  I doubt that working on newspaper comic strips was ever "less prestigious" than working for comic book publishers. 

As I remember it from the 1950s on, through the 1970s, it was much more prestigious to have a regular, long-term position on a popular nationally-syndicated newspaper strip (especially Hearst and Chicago Tribune(but also several of the other national syndicates), than to work for a comic book publisher.  Vince Fago was much more well-known for drawing the "Peter Rabbit" newspaper strip than for drawing comic book art for Fago Brothers' studio, any of the New York comic book packagers, Timely Comics, or even for being Timely Comics' chief production editor.  Floyd Gottfredson, Dick Moores, Bill Wright, Paul Murry, Al Taliaferro, Al Hubbard, Otto Messmer, Joe Oriolo, and  many others did as much newspaper strip work as possible, only filling in during their careers with comic book work for Western Publishing, being strong evidence that they earned much more with the newspaper work even with Disney or Pat Sullivan taking their cuts as middle men (through their studios having the production contracts). Even with their circulation at their very peak during the 1940s and early 1950s, comic books were much less read and known than the daily and weekly Sunday newspaper strips, read by virtually everyone in The US and Canadian societies.  It seemed to me that the same was true in The Netherlands and Denmark during the 1950s through the 1970s.

That has certainly been my own experience, and that of my friends and other colleagues, from the 1970s through even to today, having to work for animation studios, book publishers, advertising firms (and other illustration jobs), similar to fine artists working on their favourite genre and mode of producing art for art's sake, mainly for the love of it, and producing commercial art to finance that spate of low-paying working hours.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2023, 05:39:55 AM by Robb_K »
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The Australian Panther

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2023, 09:25:42 AM »

Re Horror.
QQ said,
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Hey Morgus, I'm afraid I'm in the category of those who aren't into pre-code horror, or contemporary horror for that matter. However, not so much because of a preference thing, but because it actually freaks me out. A couple of years ago, I read 'The Classic Era of American Comics' by Nicky Wright. Each chapter looked at a different genre and there were lots of illustrations. I really tried to read the horror chapter and got about halfway through, but the images were creeping me out and tended to pop into my mind when I wasn't even looking at the book, so I had to skip to the next chapter. I like suspense and thriller, but not when it gets too icky. I couldn't even watch Jack and the Beanstalk as a kid because the giant was too scary. So I might sit on the sidelines for this one, and glance over at everyone's comments in between reading my Archie comics   

I don't have as strong a reaction as that, but 'Horror' as a genre is definitely not my favorite thing.
1/ Most Horror is basically a suspense story leading up to an unexpected or apt horrible thing happening to the protagonist. It works best when the 'Horror' is cleverly suggested and not graphically illustrated. But I can appreciate the visual work done by artists I admire.
However work like the Skywald stuff [on CB+] does nothing for me, I recognize that the art is superb, but the emphasis is on the gross [as far as I am concerned] and it's not really clever, so doesn't really grab me.
2/ 3 writers .
E.A.Poe. Poe's stories work as visual adaptations. He knew suspense and his climaxes are all vivid and visual.
H.,P Lovecraft. I was a huge Lovecraft fan as a teenager. But you grow up and grow out of Lovecraft.[Except maybe for 'the dream-quest of unknown Kardath'! 
Lovecraft was a master of descriptive prose which actually describes nothing specific so you would create pictures in your imagination.   So any film or illustrations of Lovecraft always disappoints because nothing you can draw lives up to Lovecrafts word pictures.
Theodore Sturgeon. Wrote 'It' The great-grandfather of 'The Heap' 'Swamp Thing' 'Man-thing and all other plant/man monsters. Also Killdozer and my favorite, 'Bianca's hands' That story and the rest of them in the collection, 'E Pluribus Unicorn' are once read, unforgettable. And they don't rely on horrible imagery. 
They get inside your head like mind-worms. No blood, chainsaws or serial-killer madmen needed.
Just ideas you never thought of and will never forget.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/872302.E_Pluribus_Unicorn
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Theodore Sturgeon (1918–1985) is considered one of the godfathers of contemporary science fiction and dark fantasy. The author of numerous acclaimed short stories and novels, among them the classics More Than Human, Venus Plus X, and To Marry Medusa, Sturgeon also wrote for television and holds among his credits two episodes of the original 1960s Star Trek series, for which he created the Vulcan mating ritual and the expression “Live long and prosper.” He is also credited as the inspiration for Kurt Vonnegut’s recurring fictional character Kilgore Trout.   
.   
So let's just say, when it comes to Horror, I have high standards.
Cheers!       
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The Australian Panther

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2023, 09:54:08 AM »

WITCHES TALES 24

https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=21125

I did a response to this one this afternoon, and believe it or not I lost it. I don't want to do the whole thing again, so here are some highlights. 
CrashRyan said,
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Harvey's horror titles often featured excellent art, mostly by Bob Powell, Howard Nostrand, and Lee Elias.

Thank you for that, thes two books happen to be some of those where whoever did the Additional Information left out the artist's ID's.
The art in these books could belong in Mad magazine or Cracked, so it seems that the artists who did this stuff for Harvey may not have been into pure HORROR themselves.
Which is not to say that they didn't hand in their best work.
Undertaker
If Horror is supposed to culminate in something shocking, this doesn't work. Too obvious.
Mother Mongoose's Nursery Crimes
An attempt at humor which only gets a slight smile from me;
Mutiny On the Boundary
Mixing Horror with Satire doesn't work for me. A graet Charles Laughton tho.
Eye Eye, Sir
I can't say it any better than CrashRyan!
Quote
Whoever wrote "Eye, Eye, Sir" was in full-out "copy Kurtzman" mode. I never cared for Kurtzman's shtick of having men go insane and babble nonsense at the sight of an attractive woman. It always seemed idiotic rather than funny. This writer pushes Kurtzman's already over-the-top gimmick to the limit. At least he gives us the immortal monologue "Wow! Zowie! Zoom zoom zoom! Adolph Menjou! Go...go!" The ending is a total non sequitur. I want even a dumb story to have some sort of logic. We're teased constantly about the woman's glasses so we expect them to figure in the final payoff. But candles in her eye sockets? How the devil does that connect with anything in the story? We don't even get a weak play on words like "her glowing eyes" to set up the finale.

Also,
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I didn't recognize Sid Check. I'm more accustomed to his Williamson-inspired fine line style. Check's take on Wood's Mad style is quite good. It has enough personal traits to be more than a flat out Wood copy.

Monumental Feat
Not Horror, nothing unforseen happens at the end of the story. What was the point? 
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The Australian Panther

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2023, 10:23:09 AM »

WITCHES TALES 13

https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=17498

Particularly nasty cover by Lee Elias, who apparently is not the penciller of the story.

Elixir of Evil!
Variation on Jekyll and Hyde! Not too bad. Well-drawn, as you would expect from Lee Elias.

The Torture Jar
Elias's cover says more in one panel than this whole story. 
I found myself wondering what Lee and Kirby would have done with this one.

Weird unexplained events are detailed.
Never sure whether to believe these or to think that the writer just made them up.
Especially # 4.

Laugh, Clown, Laugh!
What I don't like about this one is that the Clown murders innocents in his quest for vengeance
Also a cliched story. Predictable. I realize that pumping this stuff out month after month would make it difficult to be original.

Death Lies Ahead
There is no reason given as to why the Newspaper exists, so there is no mystery and no suspense.   

All of these creators are talented and at times did excellent work, but this is not it.
I think the artists here were let-down by the writers.
And there was much better work of this type from Harvey.
Morgus, this response reflects the mood I'm currently in. I sincerely thank you for you choices. Something different and there were some good discussions had. We might do it again down the track
Tomorrow, KingCat!
Can't wait!     
     
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Morgus

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2023, 05:54:32 PM »

Thanks, ‘Panther, it was fun to do.
Ted Sturgeon is a fave of mine as well. MATURITY is my favourite short story of his, although not a horror one.
Now, I picked the Harvey stuff and the re-prints for a reason. Like I said in the first post, these were all part of a 6 issue series for Malibu, total of 27 stories. From those 27 stories, they picked 17 for a softcover called THEY CAME FROM THE 50’S. 3 from these 2 comics made the cut. ‘Death Tales’ and “Exiler of Evil” from number 13, and “Undertaker” from number 24.
And it’s not as if they didn’t have other public domain stuff to choose from. There’s Stanely Morse and Quality and Superior and Ace and all the other usual suspects in the 6 issue run. And its not as if I think these are the best of the six issue lot either. But there you go. Those 3, limitations and all, made the softcover.
Your mileage and tastes sure can vary.

I also went with Harvey for what I call THE BLOOD FEAST factor. BLOOD FEAST was a ’63 gore movie that is impossible for me to take seriously. Always makes me snicker and laugh. The blood and gore itself is probably topped by any series on TV now, from WALKING DEAD to GREY’S ANATOMY. And lots of later splatter flicks made in the nasty 80’s and beyond are more cruel and misogynistic and just flat out tasteless and replusive.
Those I do not have a use for.
But BLOOD FEAST, like PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE and ROBOT MONSTER and other drive in bottom of the barrel epics has a loveable looniness to it, a wacky point of view that makes it irresistible to me. It probably tells us something about the time it was made in, too. It’s why those ads in comics books are sometimes more important to me than the stories.

The Harvey stuff has that same quality is spades.

For top notch horror, I like stuff that evokes a sense of awe. You can start with the Universal classics in films, and the Standard material in comics. Ironically I learned about the history of horror films from reading the  backs of Warren horror mags that everybody tossed off as junk at the time. But those were the first places I saw pictures of Lon Chaney in PHANTOM OF THE OPERA and LONDON AT MIDNIGHT. Or heard about THE CABINET OF DR CALIGARI. (It was pre-VHS. You could buy it on film in their ads. We live in a freaken’ Utopia now as far as free access is concerned.)

For background on the whole Comics code era, newcomers can check out THE TEN CENT PLAGUE: The Great Comic-book Scare and How It Changed America David Hadju (Picador) You get the whole tragic story of mass hysteria, and how it ended not only ‘horror comics’ but the careers of lots of talented people. Its what happened to Nostrand.

Also look for THE SECRET MUSEUM Walter Kendrick (Viking) The story of censorship in America and how the Comics Code was just part of a larger pattern. The title is from a practice they had at the turn of the 20th century. Erotic art of historic value was shielded from The Masses and only allowed to be seen by the rich or the highborn. Everybody else was not allowed to play with the fire.

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The Australian Panther

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2023, 09:58:04 PM »

Quote
  Also look for THE SECRET MUSEUM Walter Kendrick (Viking) The story of censorship in America and how the Comics Code was just part of a larger pattern. The title is from a practice they had at the turn of the 20th century. Erotic art of historic value was shielded from The Masses and only allowed to be seen by the rich or the highborn. Everybody else was not allowed to play with the fire.

Not sure this practice has entirely ceased. I think there is a 'secret museum' element at the ruins of Pompeii.
That era of censorship was right-wing. Now we are in a period of censorship [of Museums for one] from the left-wing.
'There is nothing new under the sun'



 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 05:33:41 AM by The Australian Panther »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2023, 11:50:27 PM »



Yes, we had those in Australia - right up to fairly reccent times. But there was another way to get comics.
An annual big event in Australia is 'the Show' - started as what in the US would probably be called 'County Fairs' - a time and place to show off the produce and animals from the district and augmented by sideshows and food stalls and other entertainment.
If you were a child you could buy a 'show bag' - the bag itself highlighting some local business but inside were all kinds of goodies, cheap toys, sweets, collectable cards and a comic. You never knew what you were going to get till you opened them.
Whoever produced them clearly purchased remaindered comics for use in the show-bags.
Well, they always had a lot left over, so they sold them to movie theatres - so went to the matinee- at half-time you could buy an ice-cream, a drink and a show-bag. And in the theatres the price of the bag was half that of a comic from the newsagents rack! The comics were mostly Frew and I remember opening them to solve the mystery with great fondness.
Back then there were a lot of second-hand bookshops which also had quite a lot of comics. There are still some second-hand bookshops but they don't usually have comics anymore.
cheers!       


Oh I remember those show bags from the Brisbane 'Ekka', but they only ever had Phantom comics in them (this would have been late 60s, early 70s). As I kid, I wasn't keen on Phantom comics, especially as they were printed on paper where the ink came off on your hands, like cheap newsprint - LOL I have recently rediscovered Phantom comics, thanks to you and others in this group, and I like them now - especially as the print doesn't come off on my hands!

I don't remember ever seeing comics at the movies, though I do remember the movie magazines they used to sell. I'd usually pick up one of those.

I always check the second-hand stores for comics and occasionally find one tucked away somewhere. I recently discovered a second-hand store in Toowoomba that has a box of old comics. I picked up a few Blondie comic books there lately, but it's hard to find gems. My best find so far has been a 1970s reprint of a 1960s Lois Lane comic.

Cheers

QQ
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Morgus

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2023, 01:00:39 AM »

Q.Q. and Panther, I think a Show Bag might be a cool idea for that Halloween comic rack I’m kicking around. Tempting.
‘Crash, I looked up the DALLAS strip in my curiousity and really enjoyed it. In my naiveté, I didn’t think it would POSSIBLY be from the TV show. Wrong again, Morgus.
Sorry they cheaped out on you. But it’s still something to tell the grandkids when they sit on your knee. Your work by the way, is right up there with the movie editions they have here on site. In some cases, it beats it cold.
‘Panther, some house keeping from the last book chat. Alfredo was the brother of Alberto Salazar, the Christoper Lee of Mexican horror movies. If it was an important south of the border fright flick, Alberto probably had a hand in it. Blue Demon started his run as a luchador-you know, Mexican masked wrestler- in the early 50’s and got into movies big time after an injury in middle ’60’s. Fought against aliens, vampires, ghouls, Nazi agents, hypnotized wrestlers, you name it. Drive in and late night TV movie gold.
Mishkin, Cohn, and Cullins say they made Blue Devil on their own, and I believe them. Besides, if Blue Devil looks like anybody, it’s Blue Beetle, and DC owns that, and Cullins drew for it too.
Interesting for us, there is a bunch of Blue Demon comics too. Just like his rival in the ring, Santo. The covers would have given the comic code boys a heart attack. Comic book+ has two examples of Santo’s comics, courtesy of “Paw. They feature word balloons over photos...Tijuana Bible style. Perfect.
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Robb_K

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2023, 01:17:24 AM »

Although I liked the "Horror Films" from the 1910s through 1950s, I never liked the so-called "Horror" genre of comic books, as the grisly-looking scenes on the covers turned me off.  I never even opened the books to look at the pages inside.  If I had, I'd probably have been surprised to find that the stories inside were much more tame, and most of the suggested-to-come bloody gore was never shown.

Witches Tales 24
The Undertaker
This story was disappointing, in that the ending was obvious well before the last scene, and then, when it did come, the artwork (mainly staging, but also lack of fear and dread) was not shown in the potential victim's facial expression or body language.  In addition, the story was much too contrived and impossible to believe.  At least, the artist should have drawn the view of the victim inside the coffin, with the man struggling to get out, yelling and screaming (Let me out!  I'm ALIVE!) and banging his fists on the inside of the coffin's lid.  No reader could believe that the coffin is burned along with the body, and that the undertaker's crew doesn't remove the body to burn it.  The victim would have ample opportunity to scream loudly and be heard.  But, even if the had all been wearing earplugs, he'd still be able to jump up and say, "Hello there, I'm alive!".  Even IF, somehow the evil undertaker had been paid by the victim's enemy to murder the latter, and the cremation crew was made up of ghoulish monsterlike evil people, or monsters who WOULD burn him alive, anyway, that would ruin the story concept's irony, and thus, ruin the concept of the story, making it a story not really worth telling (because the hatred of the victim by the undertaker's customer (who paid for the murder), or the undertaker's hatred for him) had not been established).  This writer was certainly not Edgar Alan Poe!  Another large problem is the father's unreasonable hold over his son to keep him in his business all those years against his will.  No reason has been established why the son would have stayed past his late teens.

Nursery Crimes - Vignettes
.  - Boring and not clever

Mutiny on The Boundary
A very weak parody of "Mutiny On The Bounty", not belonging in a "Horror genre" book.  The artwork is good.

Eye, Eye, Sir
So, the private dick's client was a demoness.  He falls in infatuation with her, and in the last panel he finds out she's not Human.  Again, there is no build up of suspense or scary atmosphere.  Then, in the very last panel, which is too small to draw a view which might show the full effect of the detective's fear, the reader is shown his fear and fate.  But, to me, it is too abrupt, and not effective at all.  The victim looks scared, but not horrified.

Monumental Feat
A sports story about a young man who decides what he'll dedicate himself to, as a career goal (or even life's goal).  The story shows him striving towards that goal, and at the end, getting killed in an unlucky, ironic accident.  This story doesn't belong in a "Horror" magazine, but would fit better in a ""Believe It Or Not", or "Interesting Stories", or, "Ironic Tales" comic book.


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Robb_K

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2023, 04:11:21 AM »


Thanks, ‘Panther, it was fun to do.
Ted Sturgeon is a fave of mine as well. MATURITY is my favourite short story of his, although not a horror one.

For background on the whole Comics code era, newcomers can check out THE TEN CENT PLAGUE: The Great Comic-book Scare and How It Changed America- David Hadju (Picador) You get the whole tragic story of mass hysteria, and how it ended not only ‘horror comics’ but the careers of lots of talented people. Its what happened to Nostrand.

Now, THAT'S REAL HORROR! - unlike most of the stories in these 2 Harvey comic books.
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Robb_K

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2023, 05:27:14 AM »

Witches Tales 13

I hope this one will be better than Issue 24.

Elixir Of Evil
A Jekyll and Hyde clone, with the twist that the doctor is so ridiculously careless with his priceless formula that his enemy drinks the potion and becomes a monster as well.  So they fight to the death.  Not believable, at all that the doctor would keep ALL of his formula unprotected in one place, and also that he couldn't look at his notes, which should contain the formula, to create more, IF he would so choose.  Any sane person would have chosen to destroy the amount already produced, and burn the papers containing the formula contents and production process instructions.  I suppose that any sane person wouldn't have searched for  anything one could drink that could separate a Human's instinct for doing good for his fellow man, and instinct for doing "evil".  This story, like all the others in this series, suffers from being too short to develop characters, motivations, and pace a plot in a natural way that allows time enough to start slowly while weaving in setting and character development, move more quickly later, to speedy, towards the climax, and, if appropriate, to have, at least a short epilogue for the reader to mull over the "meaning" of the story.  The art is good.  I don't like the colour schemes in this book.  I think that the earliest portions of stories should have realistic colouring, so that there will be a heavy contrast between that and using bizarre colour combinations along with strange camera angles to increase the mood of agitation, to add to the fear in the scary atmosphere.  The alien, Szenk, is scary enough, but only is viewed in a single panel.  The rat (Bzark) eats the shrunken man alive, with plenty of his blood dripping out.  And, THAT is plenty horrific.  But that gore is only seen in one panel.  Perhaps the reader should have seen a half-page splash panel of the rat's den, with lots of Human bones lying around.  What's the story with those names?  Were they originally Slavic immigrants from Earth?  This story also suffers from being much too short to build up suspense. 

Weird Facts
These "facts", even if true, are unusual, and moderately interesting.  But they are certainly not "horrific".  They'd have worked better in "Believe It, Or Not".

Laugh, Clown, Laugh
I wonder how many stories I have read having that exact title, and having the same plot, that the veteran clown, who has a grudge to bear against the circus owner, ringmaster, or younger clown who seems to be on the precipice of winning his job and forcing him to retire, goes berserk and murders the object of his hatred (and often a few innocent people thought by him to be "in his way")?  And often it is the lion tamer, killed by his own trained lions.  Not very original.  Also suffers from a short page count.

Death Lies Ahead
A ridiculous story that doesn't provide any explanation for who is the source of the information of who is going to die when, for the newspaper that prints the future obituaries.  Is it God?  Saint Peter? The Devil?  Mr. Death?  Where did the gruesome couple get that newspaper?  Why do they have privy to it?  Have they found a time portal?  There is an image of The Devil looking on on Page 28, when they find the first issue they come across.  Maybe The Devil saw how evil they were, and wanted their souls early?  And The Devil gloats at the end. 

Overall Assessment

This book, on average, is a little better than Issue 24.  But all the so-called "Horror" comic books Ive seen are not my Cup-of-Tea, and I wouldn't have liked them at any age, despite my liking many of the 1910s-1950's so-called "Horror Films".

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Quirky Quokka

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2023, 06:43:05 AM »


Although I liked the "Horror Films" from the 1910s through 1950s, I never liked the so-called "Horror" genre of comic books, as the grisly-looking scenes on the covers turned me off.  I never even opened the books to look at the pages inside.  If I had, I'd probably have been surprised to find that the stories inside were much more tame, and most of the suggested-to-come bloody gore was never shown.



Hi Robb - I'm a classic film buff and I liked a few of those early horror films, which weren't all that horrible. I remember seeing 'House of Wax' and 'Creature from the Black Lagoon' at a cinema in the 1980s, complete with 3D glasses. Very tame by today's standards. Maybe there were some scarier ones out there. You wouldn't catch me in a horror film these days because I can't handle the gore. Like you, the covers of some comics (including some contemporary ones) put me off even opening them to see what the stories are like. Just as well we all have different likes and dislikes. Plenty of comic book art and stories to go around  :D

Cheers

QQ
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Johnny L. Wilson

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2023, 03:50:48 PM »



For most of my youth (we're talking USA here) comic books were sold on wire spinner racks which were almost always topped by a "Hey, Kids! Comics!" sign. If not in racks, they were displayed with the magazines, either grouped together at one end or placed in a row under the general circulation mags.

Looking back I notice how many comic-selling venues no longer exist in their original form. Dime stores, variety stores, corner drugstores, and grocery stores have all been absorbed by national chains like Wal-Mart. Big outfits like that want high-volume product with a good profit margin. The majority of the old stores were mom-and-pops or regional chains. They were fine with making a few cents on a comic book sale. According to the CoinNews Inflation Calculator 10 cents in 1953 is equivalent to $1.13 in 2023 money. I don't know what the retailer's cut of a comic book dime was. If it was 5 cents they'd net what today amounts to just over 50 cents. Only the dollar store chains operate on such slim margins, and most of them have raised prices and become "dollar and up" stores.



The retail analysis (cultural, too) is absolutely dead-on here. The little town where I attended school during what would have been my middle school years had two grocery stores (one on each end of town). One had a spinner rack and the other hosted comics on the wooden magazine rack. On those rare occasions when I had 12 cents to spend, I liked to get them from the magazine rack rather than the spinner because they were generally in better condition. Alas, the spinner rack seemed to have a wider selection. Sometimes, it would take me a couple of days of riding my bicycle between stores before I could make up my mind on one comic book versus another. My friend was Marvel and I was DC. We didn't trade, but we shared. He had a huge collection. I had a few.

My cousin lived two doors down from a corner grocery store (very Mom and Pop) in a larger town. He had both an allowance and a part-time job. He loved comics and would go regularly to the corner shop to check out the spinner rack. Even though I would assume that new shipments came in once a week at MOST (don't know about that era), he would always pick up two or three comics on every trip. I think he had the whole run of Blackhawk, Justice League, and Doom Patrol [Don't confuse me with facts; that's how my memory has shaped it.] Nonetheless, I'm sure that his very regular purchases kept that rack in business until the store closed.

In addition to nostalgia, though. I liked this analysis because it underlines what's missing from the comics industry today--a true mass market platform. The good news of the move to specialty stores was that it allowed for a more mature (at least, specialized) presentation without the legacy of Wertham to ignite the grassfires of parental hysteria. The bad news is that, now, film is the mass market platform and there is no program to follow-up with new potential fans created by the film and streaming releases that build on these intellectual properties.

Worse, except for niche publishing on the web, there is no consistently curated form of reliable criticism to guide a new fan from the film/streaming experience into the rich world of comics. At least, here on CB+ with the Reading Club, one gets more than "fan boy" opinion. I learn something from you folks every time I engage with your readings (admittedly, not often enough). I wish there were some links to curation within the collections themselves. I don't have much to offer, but I do try to add reasonably substantive comments whenever I read a volume in the collections.

You folks are the best. Thanks for letting me eavesdrop.
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Johnny L. Wilson

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2023, 04:02:00 PM »


While you glance over the selections, I almost forgot: another motive for posting these two was a question I haven't really answered myself.
By the way, I know pre code horror is a specific taste and if you're not into it, no hard feelings.

But the question itself;
Do the reprints build up a false sense of a golden age that really wasn't there? The law of the wave says that there had to be lows along with the highs. Even those EC comics had to have less than stellar stories from time to time.


That's a really solid question. I'm of the opinion that all art genres have peaks and troughs. Still, just as some stock prices have stronger charts than others, I'm pretty sure that E.C.'s chart would be considerably stronger than the four Harvey imprints. The Wertham hearing fiasco and the antihistimine situation notwithstanding, I got the feeling that Gaines (for all of his and his father's dabbling in multiple genres) cared about the product and hired artists and writers who cared about the product. Indeed, the later Warren black and whites (which spooked me out just glancing at them off the racks) always seemed to be more of a labor of love than mere (if one can every really call it that) publishing venture.

It's not a genre which I have followed faithfully, but that's my general impression. That being said, let's look at these specific issues.

#13 – I read this one first and wasn’t very surprised by any of the plots. This may be pre-code horror, but it didn’t seem the level of the EC comics I remember. The art was colorful and imaginative on the creature front, but not particularly inspiring in term of human characterizations.
Elixir of Evil was a typical Jekyll and Hyde transformation story. It seemed to be a moral allegory versus greed and lust, much like the classic novel. Indeed, it seemed like such a morality tale that one finds it hard to believe it’s a pre-code story.

The Torture Jar reminds me of an experiment I tried with insects during my junior high school years. I was researching the properties of sulfur and timed how long insects could last against the fumes of burning sulfur before they expired. HINT: Cockroaches lasted longer than houseflies and mosquitos. In this case, we have the trope of aliens of superior intelligence placing human victims in the torture jar, as opposed to my personal killing jar. There was definitely a sense of poetic justice in this one, but I suppose the vivid demise (if it is indeed a demise) of certain humans was grotesque enough to qualify as pre-code horror. I did, however, like the fact that the character name, Ephraim Harley, would have fit equally well in a story from H. P. Lovecraft or August Derleth.

The Impossible text filler was pretty much just that. There’s no explanation, no interesting revelation, and no solid motivation for what the protagonist was feeling or seeing. It’s almost like the editor said, “We need a partial page filler inside of 20 minutes.” The writer said, “That’s impossible!” Then, proceed to write this atmospheric, but unconvincing, text.

Laugh, Clown, Laugh is a perfect example of this genre. One can either take a supernaturalist or a psychoanalytical approach and still be satisfied with the story. It is a classic murder/revenge trope with the potential for graphic, public homicides used in the circus venue for colorful and exotic results. Oh, I would have enjoyed the story more if the characters, particularly the knife-thrower’s assistant, had been drawn with more attention to realism, but I liked the story because it reminded me of all those haunted circus movies I used to watch late on Friday nights when the horror feature would come on. This is, by no means, a perfect story, but it is iconic for a certain type of tale.

Death Lies Ahead is a typical story of people overplaying their hand(s). Although the climax didn’t occur exactly as I expected, the irony was the same. The artwork seemed very rough and rushed in this story. It is definitely not a sophisticated presentation. I was intriguing enough to be worthy of attention, but I don’t think I would have ever been a regular customer of this book. [DISCLAIMER: I was too young to read it when it first came out, but my parents would have never let me by a horror comic anyway. It wasn’t until Marvel published Werewolf By Night that I experienced my first horror comic. It was only later (much later) that I discovered EC Comics at garage sales, reprints, and anthologies.]
Time for Terror is simply a text tale set up in the mode of The Lady or the Tiger.

Now, when we got to #24, things still seemed simple, plot-wise, often turning on a single word or concept, but from the first story, “The Undertaker,” the atmospherics seemed richer. The ending was definitely foreshadowed; one could see it coming as soon as the protagonist put his plan into place, but it was a story that had gravitas—even the Stan Lee-style dialectical speech gimmickry of the eponymous character in the story. Suddenly, this story didn’t seem like the Casper the Friendly Ghost publisher trying to take horror seriously. This one seemed viable.

“Pictures,” the initial text entry in this volume, was an extremely contrived piece of irony. It was good enough to keep me reading. I was expecting some Twilight Zone-style story where the camera was causing these horrible things. As it was, the ending felt rushed and forced. No regrets about reading it, though!

I would have liked to see better scansion on the twisted little nursery rhymes of “Mother Mongoose,” but I still liked the idea—significantly better than the average filler page.

The “Mutiny on the Boundary” parody was colorful and atmospheric, even though I wouldn’t exactly call it “horror.” As parody, it was solid. The “ending” (for no one believes the authorities would let things stand as they are at the conclusion) was certainly more appropriate than the conclusion of the tale of “The Bounty.”

The private detective story, “Eye, Eye Sir!” had some of the most interesting character expressions I can ever remember seeing in a Harvey publication. Even though the story seemed done more for laughs than horror, it had a nice rhythm and progression. Of course, as I said before, the ending was clearly foreshadowed with the recurring refrain providing the vital clue. The story was good fun, but it definitely could have used some exposition to go with the rather cheap twist of the climax. Although handled in a much lighter vein, the protagonist sort of reminded me of Eisner's The Spirit.

“Surgery,” the second text adventure in the volume, was tremendously predictable. It might be a little more “One Step Beyond” than “The Twilight Zone,” but it had that limited space between the commercials feel to it.
Speaking of “commercials,” as a former publisher (not of comics), I was really amazed at the number of advertisements Harvey was able to cram into this issue. Commercially, it definitely looked more viable than a lot of the comics I’ve seen over the years.

The second set of “Mother Mongoose’s Nursery Rhymes” were even more forgettable than the first. The most interesting aspect of these snippets was the blatant promotion on the back of the police van, reminding readers to “Look for the Harvey H.” I chuckled more than I did with the “rhyme.”

“Monumental Feat” was, again, predictable—only the exact instrument revealed to do the plot’s bidding was different than I expected. Without too much of a spoiler, let me just suggest that the important device was not one of the three possible instruments I expected the author(s) to use.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2023, 05:41:01 AM »

Much well thought-out food for thought Johnny!
Quote
I learn something from you folks every time I engage with your readings (admittedly, not often enough).

Johnny, it's intended to be an open forum. Anybody is welcome to comment. Lets hear more from you, particularly if this is the standard of your contributions.
cheers!   
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2023, 08:00:32 AM »



In addition to nostalgia, though. I liked this analysis because it underlines what's missing from the comics industry today--a true mass market platform. The good news of the move to specialty stores was that it allowed for a more mature (at least, specialized) presentation without the legacy of Wertham to ignite the grassfires of parental hysteria. The bad news is that, now, film is the mass market platform and there is no program to follow-up with new potential fans created by the film and streaming releases that build on these intellectual properties.

Worse, except for niche publishing on the web, there is no consistently curated form of reliable criticism to guide a new fan from the film/streaming experience into the rich world of comics. At least, here on CB+ with the Reading Club, one gets more than "fan boy" opinion. I learn something from you folks every time I engage with your readings (admittedly, not often enough). I wish there were some links to curation within the collections themselves. I don't have much to offer, but I do try to add reasonably substantive comments whenever I read a volume in the collections.

You folks are the best. Thanks for letting me eavesdrop.


Thanks for that, Johnny. Feel free to eavesdrop any time, and contribute when you can. You've made some interesting thoughts there. There is a lot of depth of knowledge among people on this site. I only joined last August and I'm learning so much from everyone's comments.

The discussion about specialty stores is interesting. I live in a large regional town of about 130 000 people and we have a good comic book store in town, but most of my friends wouldn't know it was there. The local library and two of the large book chains here also have a good collection of graphic novels and comic book compilations, but you hardly see any comics apart from the specialty store. You almost have to be 'in the know' to know they're there. I grew up opposite a convenience store that had a spinner rack. I didn't have much loose change, but I loved looking through the comics and buying one when I could. A lot of 'mature' people like me, even those who watch the Marvel and DC movies, probably don't realise there's even a store in town where they can get the latest comics. This site is a great way to look back at pop culture and enjoy some of those early comics.

Thanks for stopping by.

Cheers

QQ

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Robb_K

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2023, 10:51:34 AM »



In addition to nostalgia, though. I liked this analysis because it underlines what's missing from the comics industry today--a true mass market platform. The good news of the move to specialty stores was that it allowed for a more mature (at least, specialized) presentation without the legacy of Wertham to ignite the grassfires of parental hysteria.

(1)The bad news is that, now, film is the mass market platform and there is no program to follow-up with new potential fans created by the film and streaming releases that build on these intellectual properties.

(2) Worse, except for niche publishing on the web, there is no consistently curated form of reliable criticism to guide a new fan from the film/streaming experience into the rich world of comics.

(3) At least, here on CB+ with the Reading Club, one gets more than "fan boy" opinion. I learn something from you folks every time I engage with your readings (admittedly, not often enough).

(4)I wish there were some links to curation within the collections themselves.

(5) I don't have much to offer, but I do try to add reasonably substantive comments whenever I read a volume in the collections.

You folks are the best. Thanks for letting me eavesdrop.


Welcome Johnny.  We certainly appreciate your participation here, and your thoughtful comments.
(1) Great point.  And, I think that that is one of the reasons why comic books are no longer part of the mass media.  When I was young, most of the kids I knew (in Canada, USA, and The Netherlands) read comic books, like kids of the '60s and '70s watched TV, and those of today watch streamed films, TV shows, and play digital games.  Comic books today, seem to have become a nostalgist niche fetish, only found in specialty shops.

(2) Very true, and alarming.  The public needs to know that there ARE some comic book series that are well worth reading and are respectable literature, and many potential consumers are denied access to them mainly for that reason.

(3) It's a great place to learn about the books, writers, artists, and publishing companies, and the history of that industry, and find out what other people think of them, and to read ideas others bring up that spurs a new interest or leads to discovering something that we wouldn't otherwise have.

(4) I agree wholeheartedly.  I would like to see a short history of each publisher, and ample notes about each series, and lists of the editors, artists and writers at both the publisher and series introduction, as well as more extensive information provided in the introduction and notes section for each book.  But, unfortunately, it is difficult to provide such an amount of research and data manipulation without pay for thousands of hours.  But that is the fate of niche pursuits and interests.

(5) Don't sell yourself short.  It seems that we all appreciate getting to read your insightful comments; and it is always helpful to learn what other people think about things.  And, you certainly must know a lot more about comics of popular genres like Superheroes, Horror, and probably a few others, than I do.  I look forward to reading your future comments. 
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Morgus

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Re: READING GROUP # 295 Witches Tales 13,24
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2023, 06:40:00 PM »

Welcome to the fold, Johnny. Your comments are appreciated. Like yourself I have NOTHING to do with comics, either selling or making. Just a fan. Heck in ‘real life’ I’m a psych nurse. The group is one of the friendliest and most welcoming I’ve ever come across, and actually likes questions. You’ve probably noticed by now that the sidebar conversations are a real kick. It’s gnarly cool sometimes when something you’ve had on your mind since you were 12 gets answered; (‘So they had this movie on one night and this one scrawny lady says to the doc that she’s cataleptic and REALLY wants the dude to run EVERY test if she ‘dies'. But the doctor dies first, for real, and when she goes under they put her in the box but her eyelid twitches like mad and nobody notices and she comes to in this echoey room and just goes snakey...I think Karloff was in it and he goes nuts too. ANY idea WHAT that flick IS?”)
The answer, by the way, is ISLE OF THE DEAD.
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