[cimmerian32]

Spread the word...  don't let this happen, or sites like this one will become a fond memory, not a vital part of the future!!

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2XPiqhN_Ns

Tell everyone you know, put this link on every forum you are a part of...

PLEASE!
Cimm

[rez]

Done.

[rez]

Thought cimm's post would have created more interest

[misappear]

I watched the video.  "Inside sources"  "Unnamed sources"  Sorry, at this point in my life I don't want ambiguity.  Give me hard facts, names, places, concrete stuff. 

The number of people subscribing to internet service will eventually level.  Numeric fact.  What will happen?  I remember cable at 6.95 per month in the Chicago area.  Now if you want the whole enchilada, you could easily for over $200.00 per month in some places. 

After the number of potential internet subscribers levels, there will be all kinds of manipulations to attempt to keep stockholders happy.  $200.00 per month for the whole internet?  Why not?

You could have the whole world stand up together and agree that "something" is wrong.  But you still have people like Gates telling you that it's Vista or the highway, or Bush and Cheney literally destroying a country for their own personal gain with impunity. 

I suggest you accept the fact that there are people with power beyond your wildest imagination and no amount of morally pure activism is going to change things.  I try not to lose sleep over things that are beyond my control.  I would recommend you do the same.

We are all being manipulated, overtaxed, and lied to.  It is the way we humans treat each other.  Always has been, always will be. 

Kennedy King Kennedy Lennon Bhutto

Have a nice day!

[cimmerian32]

damn, misappear!  cynicism much?  "People who have no hope are already dead inside, for life without hope is not worth living."

Take the small victories, misappear...  and hope for more

[boox909]

Misappear neither of the Kennedy's have any historical business being equated with the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

Johnson did more for Civil Rights in the U.S. than either Kennedy, who only acted once they had no way of backing out of their campaign promises without great embarrassment and inconvenience. Even then, Johnson referred to MLK as "that N-preacher".

B.

[Yoc]

Ok people, lets all keep this thread civil.
I'm all for free speech and exchanging of differing opinions but lets not let this get personal.
The ice is thin when people start talking about politics, etc.

Sadly I see a day down the road when the high cost of being online coupled with Bill Gates and the whole 'Digital Rights Management' crap will drive me off.  That's part of the reason I've been stockpiling these wonderful scans for the day when I say goodbye to the cyber highway.

[boox909]

Ok people, lets all keep this thread civil.
I'm all for free speech and exchanging of differing opinions but lets not let this get personal.
The ice is thin when people start talking about politics, etc.

No worries from my corner Yoc. I appreciate Misappear's contribution and support of the site and have nothing but respect and congeniality for him. It is the history nerd in me that even moved me to comment on his otherwise excellent posting on net neutrality (partisanship aside).

B.

[narfstar]

Just had to make the comment that it was the Republicans in congress that got the civil rights bill passed at the violent objection of most Dems.  So when credit is given it was more the R than the D's

[John C]

Just had to make the comment that it was the Republicans in congress that got the civil rights bill passed at the violent objection of most Dems.  So when credit is given it was more the R than the D's

And it has obviously gone the other way in the past.  It's shocking to me (and I'm normally pretty jaded) how many people just blame "the other side," just because of the party affiliation of one person.  Democrats blame the Republican President; Republicans blame the Liberally-biased media; nobody investigates the actual bills.  Oh, well.

Regarding the actual topic at hand, though, the way you stop a "consolidation" is by supporting whoever isn't involved.  You stop Wal-Mart by paying more at your Mom and Pop stores.  You stop Microsoft by using alternative software.  You stop your cable company by using the antenna that's probably still sitting on your roof.  You stop Diamond (the insane comic distributors) by buying independant comics.  Of course, only do that if the product is worthwhile.

If there are "filter points" (like Google almost is today) or if your ISP only lets you read three sites, there'll be other ISPs, so support them, just like people got away from services like Prodigy and the early AOL (which this reminds me of--heh; Are you sure these videos aren't fifteen or twenty years old...?).

If those "rebel" companies fail, then someone'll step in to sell things like ISP-free Mesh networking, and I'll see you all there.

[misappear]

Fellow Fanatics,

Just to clarify the point with my list of people on that earlier post:  They are all very public figures who tried to make life better for everyone by their talents and thoughts, and all died because of their beliefs and/or subsequent celebrity.

I don't think my postition is either cynical or even pessimistic (no, really, I'm not kidding!)  I do believe that we, the great mass of common humanity, can do nothing to control the ultra powerful.  This doesn't mean that we can't do stuff that will "end run" around obstructions.  I absolutely believe that once the genie is out of the bottle (downloading music/comics/movies/whatever) people will now always find a way to keep things going as long as their is interest and demand.  Close down napster and you get Kazaa.  Close Kazaa and you get Demonoid.  Close Demonoid and you get semi-private hubs.  You get the idea. 

Bill Gates.  (Public Enemy #1?)  I'm typing this post on a Windows Vista laptop.  The program is a resource hogging piece of garbage that will not run at least half the software I own.  I hope to investigate other operating systems as soon as I get some time (as I think we all should.)  But, see, the American dream has me working 60 or more hours a week so I haven't had the time in a while to do stuff I want to do.  Thank the stars for summer break.  And thank you, Mr. Gates.  May I have another?

Back to Cimm's point on the cynicism:  My heart has been broken too many times by the promise of better tomorrows.  I'm a hopeful person no longer willing to take anyone at their word--only by their actions. 

Finally, the net neutrality issue:  I don't think anyone can strong arm the internet into submission, regardless of the claims of the folks on the aformentioned video.  It's that genie out of the bottle thing.

Good discussion.

--Dave

[boox909]

Bill Gates.  (Public Enemy #1?)  I'm typing this post on a Windows Vista laptop.  The program is a resource hogging piece of garbage that will not run at least half the software I own.    And thank you, Mr. Gates.  May I have another?

ROTFLOL 

Vista certainly is an acquired taste!

B. 

[doc orion]

You stop Microsoft by using alternative software.

I have switched to Linux and am not looking back!

[Geo (R.I.P.)]

Some of this information has been on the nightly news as well as in the newspapers in the past few months, so it is in the open now, not hiding.

Geo

[John C]

While a lot of us (including me) never heard of it, it's apparently never been hidden.  Turns out that most of my friends laughed at me when I brought it up (sniff).  There are a handful of (American) Senators who've been ranting about this for years.

However, there are two versions of the story.  The real version is that, as telecommunications companies upgrade infrastructure, they want to sell the extra bandwidth to the highest bidder, basically.  The best analogy I can find is how couriers have an "expedited" service.  There's really nothing wrong with that, unless someone declares the Internet an infrastructure thing that needs to be maintained and run by the government.  (Aieeee!)

But then there's the conspiracy theory, that (starting in Canada in two years) the ISPs are going to turn all Internet access into a "managed interface" like AOL used to have--preselected destinations and content, where it'd be hard or impossible to get outside the interface.  I'm not sure how much stock I put in that version of the story, considering that AOL itself dropped that interface because none of their customers liked it.  I think Prodigy almost went bankrupt before that, because nobody liked the isolation.

There a possible middle ground of "pay as you go," except for Official Sites, but...maybe people who pay for bandwidth would find that acceptable, but most people I know would cancel service that very day.

[misappear]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly.  As the number of people needing internet service in developed countries starts to flatten, ISP's will, no doubt, try to figure new ways to make money and expand their market share. 

Unless there is a mass collusion on the part of ISps, this doesn't seem likely.  The service providing the most customer benefit for the cheapest price would gain the most business, no?  So if one or two ISP's (altruistic souls trying to ensure net neutrality) decide to provide unlimited access for a good price, they would stand to gain the most in the public's favor.  I just don't see how some of the "big guys" can start blocking huge chunks of cyberspace.  If a huge bunch of the web would be blocked, or "managed," don't you think people would just go back to dial-up and quit giving a shit?  Plus, as new demand drops, won't prices begin to fall? 

THe only model I can think of that breaks the economic model is cable TV.  Rates have actually skyrocketed since the 1980's because providers are bidding for the right to carry specific packages.  Can you imagine if you could call a cable company and buy your channels a la carte?  After all these years, I am still in disbelief that no one has challenged the legality of neighborhood monopolies by cable companies in American cities.  I guess if you look at the web potentially operating like the cable thugs, then anything can happen.

Right now I'm shelling out $50.00US per month to get high-speed (which I'm lead to believe is not as quick as some European providers.)  If this charge went to $75.00US, I think I might find something else to do. 

Let me ask you folks this--Is anyone out there still paying money for HBO and the like when you can download pretty much any movie you want? 

Maybe I'm just not understanding this controversy the correct way.

--Dave

[rez]

Certainly a changing world. Recalling days of youth when we thought the Canadian paper money looked funny with all it's color. Then a few weeks back an old classmate returns to the states to visit after teaching in Syndey, Austraila for the last 20 years and shows me an Aussie 50 bill with a little circular transparent circular window built into the paper in addition to the colors. That puts the Canucks to shame for novel.

The arrival of the internet has been beyond novel in it's impact on society more akin to the discovery of gunpowder, plastics, and the wheel towards transforming how things are done involving the general populace.

One can almost rest assured that sooner or later serious attempts to control this wild bronc are going to occur. However, overall I've the feeling that the results will be meager at best for quite a while barring some new type of social upheaval influencing the neccessity of controls.

In the meantime I am certainly enjoying the discovery of the on-line scanning world.

Cheers to all, and to all a good fight.