[MarkWarner]

Whoops! Apologies Mr Sieve Head (AKA Mark) forgot to do this week's reading group. So we are a day late, but hopefully it's a corker. As last week's Tippy Teen's Animal & Go-Go drew comparisons (fairly complementary ones) to Archie, one of our number wisely suggested we:

"... compare & contrast with the recent fake-archie comic (tippy teen), an actual archie comic which doesn't SEEM like an Archie comic, such as Jackpot #4 https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=22596.
The focus of course would be on the Archie story, though the superhero stuff included in the issue would also provide for a fair amount of discussion."

This seems like a very good suggestion, and I thought that it would work best if we read it soon and you can't get sooner than next. So it's Jackpot #4 https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=22596, and the story we are concentrating on is the the Archie one that starts on our page 34. And for those of us that read cover to cover we have 68 pages and only 6 days to digest them in .... it's a tough life!

[Drahken]

The artwork in the archie comic is not even close to what we're used to, it doesn't even look like an archie immitator. The characters of archie and jughead are somewhat like they're better known selves, but archie is more actively mischievous rather than just clumsy and foolish, while jughead is more of a strongman & archie's stooge. Betty isn't given many lines in this story, but from what we can tell her character seems quite different than what we're used to, more mindless stage decoration. Miss (mrs) grundy also has a cameo, her design is much homlier than normal & really looks more like the school chef in the newer comics, on top of that she's the school principal in this story.
The story itself is somewhat entertaining, if rather predictable. With a modification or two it could fit right in place in a current archie comic, the key change being how archie gets the dogs. In a more current comic he would probably just take one dog out of the truck and then forget to relock the cage.

The three super hero stories in this are surprisingly dark for something included with an archie strip (at least as we know it today, though they're really not out of place for their time), with death and murder in all of them. What was decidedly surprising though was that the one story in the comic which would have made sense to have plenty of death in, the military one, was the only one (other thanarchie) to have absolutely no death and a resolution more akin to a 1980s saturday morning cartoon.

[crashryan]

I'll get to Archie in a moment.

First the somewhat strange "other features." Steel Sterling's story has a big hole: the woman really does intend to murder Willard. As far as she knows, she has murdered him. Can she really get off scot free just because her victim beat her to it? Isn't it at least attempted murder?

The Black Hood gives us another grisly story. It's odd to see so much mayhem in a comic from a company that became famous for good, clean fun. The "unique" Mr.(Spectre-Who?) Justice stars in a royal mess. If Mr J. is capable of "sending (the artist) to his grave without his soul" then why couldn't he just stop the guy and free the captive souls by himself?

Hard to believe the rollicking adventures of Sergeant Boyle go on for 13 panel-crammed pages. Did I miss something or does the countryside go from swampland to snowed-in and back to swampland without explanation? Phooey on this one.

Now for Archie. Every young feature takes a while to develop, so I'm not surprised to find so many differences between this Archie and the later version. Some of the differences are interesting. For example Archie is broadly caricatured while Jughead is drawn semi-realistically. Betty is drawn in an even-straighter style.

But if you want to see "develop," remember how the kids looked in Archie's first appearance (Pep 22)? Betty is unmistakably a pre-teen and by contemporary standards some of the romance stuff is a bit creepy.



Maybe it was creepy by 1940s standards, too, because in issue 23 Archie has gained several years and Betty has literally developed overnight.



It goes to show that while the Archie style of art and story seems to have been unchanged forever, it took a while to emerge--just like every long-running comic feature.

The story is okay, not unlike the typical Archie script. Archie shows a peculiar moral sense in deciding that while freeing the dogs would be wrong, opening the door so they escape is fine. I'm not sure what's the intent of having the actors say things like "littul" and "puhleez." Maybe it's supposed to be dialect.

In sum, no great shakes but Archie is sure better than the rest of the strips.

[SuperScrounge]

Steel Sterling - Okay story, the set-up is a bit cliched (who murdered the gossip columnist), but otherwise not bad.

Bloody Gold - Couldn't MLJ afford a better typewriter? Yeesh! The story itself is rushed and could a used more development.

The Black Hood - Okay.

The Curse of the Headless Idol - Eh.

Archie - Kind of odd that with the third Archie story they decided to promote him in a second book. It seems unlikely they could have gotten feedback to indicate that he was that popular, so did they just have faith that he would be popular? The story tries to be wacky & zany, but falls short. An okay effort, but it seems hard to believe that this is the future star the publisher gets renamed for.

Mr. Justice - Not bad, but how did the artist get convicted & given the death penalty? Is magical possession recognized by law?

Sergeant Boyle - Wha? Yikes! What a poor mix of a serious subject and attempted slapstick.

[crashryan]

SuperScrounge, you raise an interesting point about Archie being too new to merit an appearance in a second magazine. Looking at the other stories I see MLJ vigorously cross-promoting their magazines. This probably was a ploy to lure Jackpot readers into buying Pep as well.

Which makes me note how tastes have changed in naming comic books. Can you imagine modern comics with names like Pep, Jackpot, Zip, etc.? Wonder what the contemporary equivalents would be. Fu*kin Sick Comics?

[Mazzucchelli]

It

[SuperScrounge]

Which makes me note how tastes have changed in naming comic books. Can you imagine modern comics with names like Pep, Jackpot, Zip, etc.? Wonder what the contemporary equivalents would be. Fu*kin Sick Comics?

Wouldn't surprise me, sadly. 

I seem to recall a comic named Sick from Fantaraphics, IIRC it was done by Peter Bagge.

I remember looking at a book(?) which had a list of a bunch of anthology titles from various publishers and was kind of amazed. I imagine that they probably either opened a dictionary at random and picked a word or they grabbed a thesaurus and picked a synonym for a word that was already in use by a competitor (Flash Comics, Speed Comics, Zip Comics)

I suppose they all develop with time, and these re-designs are much needed in terms of adaptation and to make these characters be more sellable. It

[Italo.Perazzoli]

I really appreciate the character of Archie, he is a young boy in love with the theatre and with solid ideals, like those to raise money for the poor folk.

In the middle there is a funny story, full of hilarity and twists and gags.

Unfortunately today Archie lives only on old comics and this is an occasion, for rediscover these personages with a morality, which has been forgotten in contemporary times.

Today what it counts is only the graphics, muscles and the martial arts and violence.

Am I too exaggerated or too moralistic?

[crashryan]

SuperScrounge, your discussion of simplifying costume design brings to mind someone who did the opposite: Jose Luis Salinas in the newspaper Cisco Kid strip. Cisco wore a black shirt with elaborate embroidery on the shoulders, and every time the decorations showed in a panel Salinas meticulously painted the design in using opaque white paint. Panel after panel, year after year. That's dedication.

[Morgus]

Wow...so this is pretty much where it began, huh? Very educational. You could probably write a whole book on how and why things changed as they did...the intro of Mr Weatherbee, Veronica, the changes to Miss Grundy...why someone thought UNCLE TOM'S CABIN would be a play you'd want to DO in the first place....mabye even have an evolutionary ladder for Archie as well...Archie reminds me of Howdy Doody...or at least the MAD paody of him...a lot of fun to read and see the contrasts and our reaction to those contrasts

[Mazzucchelli]

The first example seems much more removed from the others then the next five, those just seem like minor tweaks that a casual reader might not even notice.

Actually there are clear differences between every stage of Asterix's development since the early 70's.
Every stage of its development is a milestone per se.

In my understanding Asterix development in comics goes like this...

1. Early seventies in french Tintin magazine as a supporting character.
2. First solo albuns like the 'Golden Sickle' and "the Goths"
3. Consolidation of style and the best albuns like 'Asterix in Britain'
4. Still going strong with albuns like "Asterix in Switzerland" and "Asterix in Spain"
5. Death of creator-writer Ren

[bowers]

Great to see some of the MLJ stuff. They had a pretty good stable of heroes with The Shield and The Wizard being my two favorites. SuperScrounge commented earlier on MLJ's practice of cross promoting their characters. Hence, the earliest Archie story I've read was in an issue of Pep Comics. I believe it replaced the Danny in Wonderland feature which was sort of dark and quirky for a kiddy strip. (I loved it!)

It is, indeed, interesting to see how the cast's appearance has changed over the years. In the center panel of the story's second page Archie looks like the inspiration for the much later American icon, Howdy Doody. Jughead and his beanie didn't change too much, although his face became a bit more pleasant. Where did he find those caps in the 60s, 70s, and 80s? The early Miss Grundy was a riot!

The story itself was a slapstick riot without much plot, but maybe MLJ was trying to give young readers a break from some of the darkness and violence in the other features. Even though the dogs provided plenty of violence of their own, as long as it was drawn in a cartoony style the publishers could just chalk it up to harmless fun!

I'm a little surprised nobody has yet asked the ultimate Archie question. Who was hotter- Betty or Veronica? (And whatever did they see in this carrot-top buffoon?) Cheers, Bowers

[crashryan]

Bowers, that's an interesting point about Howdy Doody. It led me to Wikipedia where I read the odd story of Mr Doody's early life. The puppet was redesigned in 1947, by which time Archie looked much more like he does today (but not exactly). It seems unlikely HD was inspired by an old comic story, but the resemblance is amusing. Another odd thing about the earliest Archie's was the way Archie asked everyone to call him "Chick." I have no idea how long that lasted. If they wanted him called Chick why didn't they name the comic Chick instead of Archie?

I thought Veronica was cuter but she was such a b---- I couldn't understand what Archie saw in her. Unless he was just longing for something he knew he'd never have. But Betty was no personality prize, either. High maintenance, both of them. I liked the Mad comic parody, which ended with Archie beating his head against a wall as he remembers all the times Betty threw herself at him and he turned her down.

[MarkWarner]

Blimey. That's a bit of a gory start, a guy with a hole in his head! I think we can now all agree Walt Willard is a complete rat and deserves all that he is (no doubt) going to get from Steel Sterling. Oh, no he perished by his own hand and the lady shot a corpse so although it was attempted murder the guy was already dead and then it's --- ZIIIIIP --- onto a Steel Sterling text story "Bloody Gold" ... which is "Bloody Rubbish".

Swifty onto the Black Hood and a "Murder At Restless Willows". I really enjoyed this ... I really do prefer our "older" comics. I am not so sure of the text stories though .. 'cos I've read another stinker.

Next up is our main story featuring Archie. Ah ... I see what people have been saying. Archie really is a cut above the others. Bob Montana did a very good job on this. I liked the artwork.

Next we have Mr Justice in "The Painter Who Trapped Souls". This was very good indeed, and my favorite of the book. I was actually rooting for the painter at the beginning. If he had carried on seeking his revenge solely on bankers I for one think it would have been a noble cause. I might even have turned a blind eye to one or two non-banker portraits. But helping the Nazis' really is a No-no! 

The last story is The "Siberian" Attack featuring Sergeant Boyle. I am not sure if it was good or bad , as I confess I got completely confused by the story. I am not sure what happened! But hey the book is good!

Verdict: A HIT!!! Back in the day, I'd have bought this for 10 cents. Great value for money, especially if after reading them, you had kept them nicely bagged for over half a century

[jimmm kelly]

As that MAD parody pointed out, Betty and Veronica looked exactly alike. The only difference being their hair colour. Archie could have saved himself a lot of grief if he just bought a bottle of hair dye and convinced Betty to make the change. Of course, she would have done it in a heart beat if it meant getting Archie for herself. Problem solved.

[Drahken]

In these early comics betty & veronica did look somewhat different (about as different as any young women in these comics);

[narfstar]

The art was really good. I, however, did not really care for the story. I actually enjoyed Go Go better. Jughead, I am pretty sure, was made to look like a dead end kid. The story seemed more like a Little Rascals tale. The art was a winner but I guess I am the lone hands down on it over all.

[Drahken]

They're printing a whole new archie series now. This series ditches the classic archie artwork and the classic archie lighthearted hijinx. I have no idea if this is going to be the permanent future of archie comics or if this is just some sidestory thing like when they gave them a new look several years ago.
What's particularly interesting about this (and why I'm posting it here) is that the first issue of this comic includes a reprint of the original archie comic.

Here's the new look: http://allspark.net/cypherswipe/new-archie.jpg
...And here's the first couple pages of the reprint: http://allspark.net/cypherswipe/original-archie-reprint.jpg

[jimmm kelly]

I guess reprinting the original makes the point for them that Archie has changed over the years, therefore it's not breaking tradition to change him again.

I did purchase the LIFE WITH ARCHIE: THE MARRIED LIFE magazine for awhile, because I think Norm Breyfogle is a great artist and I wanted to support something he was doing. But mostly i tend to just pick up the Double Digests from time to time for the nostalgia of it.

I think the digests are probably Archie's best sellers and I don't see them giving that up. So as long as those remain near check-out stands, with all their reprints--the traditional image of Archie will probably survive.