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Art ID

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topic icon Author Topic: Art ID  (Read 56415 times)

JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2009, 02:27:25 AM »


My probably way off thoughts. First was that the one panel looked like Alex Raymond which then led to someone else who has done Flash Gordon that being Al McWilliams.  I like doing this and do not mind being told I am way off. My wild guess may put someone on the right track.

No, it's too "cartoony" for McWilliams (who I like a lot, too). In the 40s he was a much more serious artist. This isn't anyone with an established history in comic books (or if it is, it's early and atypical work).

Keep thinking about it. Thanks for the input.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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John C

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2009, 07:57:12 PM »

The second story looks less so, but the stocky figures, round heads, and lettering remind me quite a bit of Joe Shuster.  Perhaps one of his assistants?

I'm probably very wrong, but starting here:

http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superart/Shustershop1.htm

The sample of Hi Mankin's Johnny Quick work seems to compare favorably.
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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2009, 08:56:41 PM »


The second story looks less so, but the stocky figures, round heads, and lettering remind me quite a bit of Joe Shuster.  Perhaps one of his assistants?

I'm probably very wrong, but starting here:

http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superart/Shustershop1.htm

The sample of Hi Mankin's Johnny Quick work seems to compare favorably.


I can see some surface similarities, JC,
but the drawing approach is quite different and the inking is almost Joe Maneely-ish in its consistency. (Of course, the is about five years prior to Maneely's debut - at which point he was already eminently recognizable as Maneely.)

Thanks for the thoughts. While Shuster's assistants and ghosts were wonderful, I don't see any of them as being great artists. I see this person as being great - several cuts above the Mart Bailey and Ogden Whitney material that appeared elsewhere in the issues. Bailey and Whitney, before anyone objects to my not considering them "great", were solid, competent and talented, but they never pushed the "envelope" or made any major contributions to the development of the art of comic books. This artist, IMHO, had he or she lasted in comics, probably would have.

Maybe someday we'll find out who it is.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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narfstar

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2009, 09:25:55 PM »

On Minala John far right of the splash between the rocks looks like it might be some initials or sig. Can you make it out better on the original?
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John C

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2009, 09:36:57 PM »


Thanks for the thoughts. While Shuster's assistants and ghosts were wonderful, I don't see any of them as being great artists. I see this person as being great - several cuts above the Mart Bailey and Ogden Whitney material that appeared elsewhere in the issues. Bailey and Whitney, before anyone objects to my not considering them "great", were solid, competent and talented, but they never pushed the "envelope" or made any major contributions to the development of the art of comic books. This artist, IMHO, had he or she lasted in comics, probably would have.


You're right that this guy was darn good, wherever he came from.  I was wondering if possibly this was someone trying to "spread his wings," which sounds like someone who might have felt stuck working in a shop.  Maybe someone who only did this once, because it took too long.

(I'm reminded of the time I got to speak with Fred Hembeck.  We spoke for quite a while about why he only rarely did "serious" work, when he's so very good with composition.  His response boiled down to it taking too long for what seems mediocre, rather than being at the top of the humor game with much less work.)

While I was typing, though, I lost my main train of thought, which was that it looked to me as if the person either was inspired by Shuster or perhaps was Shuster's own inspiration.  I doubt that helps substantially, though.
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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2009, 10:47:36 PM »


On Minala John far right of the splash between the rocks looks like it might be some initials or sig. Can you make it out better on the original?


Wish it were so, narf,
but, alas, it's just random ink strokes.

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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2009, 10:58:23 PM »


You're right that this guy was darn good, wherever he came from.  I was wondering if possibly this was someone trying to "spread his wings," which sounds like someone who might have felt stuck working in a shop.  Maybe someone who only did this once, because it took too long.

While I was typing, though, I lost my main train of thought, which was that it looked to me as if the person either was inspired by Shuster or perhaps was Shuster's own inspiration.  I doubt that helps substantially, though.


Yes, jc, the "spreading his wings" analogy makes sense to me, too. The artist appears in issues 3 and 4, also, so its not a one-off. Given the dates, it's possible he was a WWII casualty. I've never seen him (I use the masculine pronoun simply for convenience) elsewhere, before or since.

He's long after Shuster, so there's no chance of him being an inspiration for JS. Personally, I don't see the Shuster connection, but I've never been a great appreciator of him, so you're probably seeing subtleties that I'm missing.

Somebody should get all of the first four ME U.S. Marines in the next JVJ batch and we can all look at all that is known of this guy's work. Geo, Jon, Eric? NARF - you should take these four books and squeeze them into your life, somehow. Just a thought.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

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JonTheScanner

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2009, 12:09:47 AM »

Somebody should get all of the first four ME U.S. Marines in the next JVJ batch and we can all look at all that is known of this guy's work. Geo, Jon, Eric? NARF - you should take these four books and squeeze them into your life, somehow. Just a thought.
Peace, Jim (|:{>


Jim, when I make my next request -- assuming I don't fill a box completely -- I want you to toss in any choices like this that you might have to be scanned.
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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2009, 01:05:45 AM »


Somebody should get all of the first four ME U.S. Marines in the next JVJ batch and we can all look at all that is known of this guy's work. Geo, Jon, Eric?


Jim, when I make my next request -- assuming I don't fill a box completely -- I want you to toss in any choices like this that you might have to be scanned.


The only time I think of these things is when I'm on a quest for information, Jon. Unfortunately, I don't retain the focus for very long, so PLEASE write down U.S. Marines #1-4 on your "next batch" list because I'LL never remember it.

Thanks for the offer, too.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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John C

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2009, 06:38:52 PM »


Yes, jc, the "spreading his wings" analogy makes sense to me, too. The artist appears in issues 3 and 4, also, so its not a one-off. Given the dates, it's possible he was a WWII casualty. I've never seen him (I use the masculine pronoun simply for convenience) elsewhere, before or since.


I do wonder, though, if he didn't produce fast enough or consistent enough (those other books will undoubtedly give a better indication) and ended up churning out simpler work elsewhere.  Or perhaps he got a "real job" after a few months slogging around in the comics.  But yes, it's unfortunately the most likely that he was sent off to war.


He's long after Shuster, so there's no chance of him being an inspiration for JS.


That's assuming (which I initially did, too) that he started his career in the comics.  The Manila John blurb, though, reminds me (in general form, I mean--I don't have any magazine in mind) of a banner from a Pulp magazine.  The rear-lit head overlooking the blurb is certainly not comic book composition, for example.


Personally, I don't see the Shuster connection, but I've never been a great appreciator of him, so you're probably seeing subtleties that I'm missing.


The "s" across all the lettering drew me to the theory initially.  An alphabet where the letters are (almost) all precise except for the top-heavy S struck me as very uncommon and familiar.  I realized that I first saw it in the reconstruction material for the "K-Metal from Krypton" story.

After that possible theory took root, I noticed the specific attention given to everybody's shoulders.  Everybody is extremely stocky, here, and has very prominent shoulder positioning.  However, that's where the similarity stops, because Shuster seems to not make use of this, other than to give his characters "stage presence."  This guy, though, is using the shoulders to show progression.  (By contrast, Will Eisner is also big on shoulders, but uses them to narrow his figures and show emotion.)  Less conclusive, but somewhat interesting, is the similarity of middle-aged Toyama's head to the infamous "slap a jap" cover--the Superman propaganda is more cartoony, of course, but the glasses and ears are remarkably similar to my eyes, at least in concept.

So it's definitely not Shuster, but seems like someone who's focusing on the same sorts of key issues in composition, but taking it from a very different perspective.

It also seems that the art is pretty much humorless.  There's nothing whimsical in any of the work, and it's all laid out very deliberately, down to which details are included (the shadows along the pant leg folds, particularly draw my eye) and which aren't (the mountains in the distance).  Oddly, the only thing that doesn't look like it was planned out in detail are the explosions.  They're distinctive, but definitely out of place.  Maybe someone can recognize them?

As I said, though, I'm very probably wrong.  I haven't explored too much period pencilling in detail, so these could be more generic traits than I think they are, and I could also easily be correlating things where they're not connected.
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darkmark

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2009, 07:17:11 PM »

OK, Jim, let's see if this works.  This is the first page of a Black Cat story from SPEED COMICS I need sourced.  Any luck?

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears18kb0.jpg
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 07:19:13 PM by darkmark »
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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2009, 09:36:29 PM »


OK, Jim, let's see if this works.  This is the first page of a Black Cat story from SPEED COMICS I need sourced.  Any luck?

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears18kb0.jpg


Any chance you could post a larger scan, dm?
A lot of my information is artist-based and I can't tell who drew it from such a tiny scan.

Thanks. Jim (|:{>
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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2009, 10:10:02 PM »


I do wonder, though, if he didn't produce fast enough or consistent enough (those other books will undoubtedly give a better indication) and ended up churning out simpler work elsewhere.  Or perhaps he got a "real job" after a few months slogging around in the comics.  But yes, it's unfortunately the most likely that he was sent off to war.

Part of what I bring to identifying artists, jc, is the extrapolation of styles over time. It was my freakish ability in this regard that unearthed the 1942/43 work of Bernie Krigstein for John Benson's Squa Tront. I can somehow figure out how an artist developed (or devolved) over his or her career and I can say with some certainty that this artist didn't go anywhere in comics. Whoever he/she was, this is probably both a debut and a swansong. You'd have to do a LOT of convincing to get me to agree that this was a pulp artist prior to being a comic book artist. I'd accept the possibility of being a comic STRIP artist, as there is a lot of graphic storytelling ability demonstrably here.
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That's assuming (which I initially did, too) that he started his career in the comics.  The Manila John blurb, though, reminds me (in general form, I mean--I don't have any magazine in mind) of a banner from a Pulp magazine.  The rear-lit head overlooking the blurb is certainly not comic book composition, for example.

Yeah, possibly, but I see it as more of an advertising or commercial art approach than even a pulp technique. This artist HAD to have some experience prior to the USM stories. Nobody "hit the ground running" this well on their first comic book story.

Quote
The "s" across all the lettering drew me to the theory initially.  An alphabet where the letters are (almost) all precise except for the top-heavy S struck me as very uncommon and familiar.  I realized that I first saw it in the reconstruction material for the "K-Metal from Krypton" story.

This is a factor that I seldom put much faith in simply because it is based on the assumption that the artist did the lettering - and I have no way of knowing that that's the case. I have to rely on artistic idiosyncrasies and always keep the surface (inking) ones in mind as possibly being separate from the underlying (pencil) structure.
Quote
After that possible theory took root, I noticed the specific attention given to everybody's shoulders.  Everybody is extremely stocky, here, and has very prominent shoulder positioning.  However, that's where the similarity stops, because Shuster seems to not make use of this, other than to give his characters "stage presence."  This guy, though, is using the shoulders to show progression.  (By contrast, Will Eisner is also big on shoulders, but uses them to narrow his figures and show emotion.)  Less conclusive, but somewhat interesting, is the similarity of middle-aged Toyama's head to the infamous "slap a jap" cover--the Superman propaganda is more cartoony, of course, but the glasses and ears are remarkably similar to my eyes, at least in concept.

I see what you mean and it's good to notice these things (and to have them pointed out to me). My focus is always on the overall art. I wouldn't characterize this artist as drawing "stocky" figures. A more precise observation would be that they are not "heroic" in stature - more natural and (considering most are of Japanese characters) more realistic. But there is also the cartoony aspect that comes through it all and, as you observe with the similarities to the Superman cover, the racial stereotypes of the day.
Quote
So it's definitely not Shuster, but seems like someone who's focusing on the same sorts of key issues in composition, but taking it from a very different perspective.

It also seems that the art is pretty much humorless.  There's nothing whimsical in any of the work, and it's all laid out very deliberately, down to which details are included (the shadows along the pant leg folds, particularly draw my eye) and which aren't (the mountains in the distance).  Oddly, the only thing that doesn't look like it was planned out in detail are the explosions.  They're distinctive, but definitely out of place.  Maybe someone can recognize them?

Another very intriguing aspect of the art is the (apparently) incredible knowledge/depiction of Japanese costumes and history. The writer seems to have done a LOT of homework, too. This is NOT your typical Japan-bashing story.
Quote
As I said, though, I'm very probably wrong.  I haven't explored too much period pencilling in detail, so these could be more generic traits than I think they are, and I could also easily be correlating things where they're not connected.


Observations are seldom "wrong", jc. They may turn out not to have much relevancy to the final answer, but they are always interesting in and of themselves. For instance, I found your "humorless" comment to be "odd," because I see this artist as primarily a cartoonist with ambitions of seriousness. You see it the other way round. Unless we can extend his/her career forward or backward, we'll probably never know which of us is more observant.

But, it is ALWAYS fun to try and solve this type of mystery.

Thanks for playing. Peace, Jim (|:{>
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narfstar

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2009, 10:20:39 PM »

I did get the impression that the artist might have been oriental. Possibly a Japanese artist who became persona non grata.
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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2009, 10:46:31 PM »


I did get the impression that the artist might have been oriental. Possibly a Japanese artist who became persona non grata.

A good thought, narf. I keep trying to pin down just who it reminds me of and I had a short flash on Chu Hing. I eventually discarded him as a possibility, but the Oriental "air" of the art does remain.

I know that a lot of Japanese here in California were put in "camps" during the war. Was there a similar reaction on the East Coast? Could an artist of Japanese descent get a job in comics in 1943? Bob Fujitani obviously did, so perhaps I've answered my own question, but he was known quantity before the war.

There seems to be more to this artist than initially meets the eye. Keep pondering...

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Yoc

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2009, 11:01:34 PM »

Canada had Japanese internment camps as well Jim.
A large black-eye on our WW2 history.

-Yoc
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narfstar

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2009, 11:22:16 PM »

Yet with the last name Ludwig my family did not face interment. Not as visually easy to identify as the "enemy" Glad things have changed. I do think we are on the right track with an oriental artist.
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darkmark

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2009, 02:26:54 AM »

Actually, I wasn't looking to ID the artist, I just want to know what issue of SPEED it's from.  Thanks.



OK, Jim, let's see if this works.  This is the first page of a Black Cat story from SPEED COMICS I need sourced.  Any luck?

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears18kb0.jpg


Any chance you could post a larger scan, dm?
A lot of my information is artist-based and I can't tell who drew it from such a tiny scan.

Thanks. Jim (|:{>
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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2009, 04:42:21 AM »


Actually, I wasn't looking to ID the artist, I just want to know what issue of SPEED it's from.  Thanks.


That was quite clear, DM,
What wasn't clear is that my data cards will tell me who drew the story and I can do a LOT of winnowing down the possible issue numbers if I have a clear idea of who was drawing Black Cat. i.e. if I look at your scan and it's drawn by Jill Elgin, I don't have to look through the issues where Black Cat was drawn by Joe Kubert.

Having said that, I will fess up that my Speed collection for the war years is pretty slim. Still, I might have the issue. I simply don't want to page through every issue of Speed if I don't have to.

Thanks for understanding.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2009, 05:34:03 AM »


I did get the impression that the artist might have been oriental. Possibly a Japanese artist who became persona non grata.


Does anyone out there have any artwork signed by Maurice Kashuba? He was around at the right time and there is a definite connection between Columbia and early ME. Here's his WW entry:
Name    Category    Credit    Tenure[hide]
KASHUBA, MAURICE
   Name and vital stats
       KASHUBA, MAURICE (artist; writer)    
   CENTAUR COMICS
       BIG RACE (pen/ink/) 1938    > 38
       Filler (wr/pen/ink/) 1938    > 38
       LUCKY DOYLE, MASTER DETECTIVE (wr/pen/ink/) 1938 [Imprint: CHESLER]    > 38
       RIDERS OF THE GOLDEN WEST (wr/pen/ink/) 1938 [Imprint: CHESLER]    > 38
       SECRET TUNNEL, THE (wr/pen/ink/) 1938    > 38
       TOM CURRY (wr/pen/ink/) 1938    > 38
   COLUMBIA COMIC CORPORATION
       TOM KERRY (wr/pen/ink/) 1940    > 40
   DC COMICS
       CLICK EVANS (wr/pen/ink/) 1938    > 38
       KIT STRONG (wr/pen/ink/) 1940-41    > 40 41
       SPY (wr/pen/ink/) 1940    > 40
   DELL PUBLICATIONS
       MR. DISTRICT ATTORNEY (wr/pen/ink/) 1941-42    > 41 42
       PROFESSOR SUPERMIND AND SON (wr/pen/ink/) 1941    > 41
   QUALITY COMICS
       MISS AMERICA (wr/pen/ink/) 1942    > 42
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JonTheScanner

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2009, 05:30:30 PM »

Jim,

I have all (?) the "Professor Supermind and Son" that someone complied recently.  The first one is signed Maurice Kashuba.  Others may be as well.  I've put this up on Sendspace

http://www.sendspace.com/file/djdon3

For anyone who wants to look at them
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Yoc

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2009, 05:46:36 PM »

That was compiled by Mike Harwood for the SpaceVoucherHoax Yahoo group Jon.
It is complete.
:)
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darkmark

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2009, 06:35:34 PM »

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JVJ

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2009, 06:36:41 PM »


Jim,

I have all (?) the "Professor Supermind and Son" that someone complied recently.  The first one is signed Maurice Kashuba.  Others may be as well.  I've put this up on Sendspace

http://www.sendspace.com/file/djdon3

For anyone who wants to look at them


Thanks, Jon,
As I mentioned in my other response, Maurice Kashuba is not the artist of the U.S. Marines stories. The artist on the other stories is Ralph Carlson - Kashuba only does the first one.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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John C

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Re: Art ID
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2009, 10:57:33 PM »

Grrr...A slip of the finger and the browser decided to take a nap, when I was almost done replying.  So, this is rushed and I apologize in advance if it's patchy and incomplete--there's a good chance I think I explained stuff that never got sent.

Also, I agree that the evolution is important and sometimes predictable, so didn't really comment, there.


Yeah, possibly, but I see it as more of an advertising or commercial art approach than even a pulp technique. This artist HAD to have some experience prior to the USM stories. Nobody "hit the ground running" this well on their first comic book story.


My guess of Pulp experience over, say, advertising is due to the assumption that a company isn't going to want the mascot or model to look haunted.  I've certainly never seen the light coming from behind except in specific artsy (and decidedly modern photographic) layouts.  On the other hand, I've seen the technique used frequently (with or without a story-related reason) in the magazine material scanned on Project Gutenberg.

They show up on the scene too late to be relevant to this discussion, but Frank Freas and Victor Napoli both kept this in their respective bags of tricks.


Quote
The "s" across all the lettering drew me to the theory initially.  An alphabet where the letters are (almost) all precise except for the top-heavy S struck me as very uncommon and familiar.  I realized that I first saw it in the reconstruction material for the "K-Metal from Krypton" story.

This is a factor that I seldom put much faith in simply because it is based on the assumption that the artist did the lettering - and I have no way of knowing that that's the case. I have to rely on artistic idiosyncrasies and always keep the surface (inking) ones in mind as possibly being separate from the underlying (pencil) structure.


In principle, I agree, and was only walking through my line of thought on the chance that it'd jog somebody else's memory.  In retrospect, though, it's probably just a coincidence, because the W is also distinctive, but I've never seen it before.


I see what you mean and it's good to notice these things (and to have them pointed out to me). My focus is always on the overall art. I wouldn't characterize this artist as drawing "stocky" figures. A more precise observation would be that they are not "heroic" in stature - more natural and (considering most are of Japanese characters) more realistic.


I didn't mean any judgement beyond the literal description by "stocky."  Even the children and elderly have squarish torsos and broad shoulders.  In the era of political correctness, I guess it's become a euphemism for "fat," so I'm sorry for the confusion, there.


But there is also the cartoony aspect that comes through it all and, as you observe with the similarities to the Superman cover, the racial stereotypes of the day.


It looks to me, though, as if the stereotyping is being used to advantage, rather than for ignorance.  I remember reading, years back, that people can more easily identify a mildly distorted (exaggerated) picture of a face than the original, and that looks like what the artist is doing, here.  For example, if you can avoid focusing on any of the characters in the scene and take it all in at once, the faces look real.

I'm tempted to say that this suggests strong exposure to pre-photographic portrait work, either due to age (unlikely) or education.


Another very intriguing aspect of the art is the (apparently) incredible knowledge/depiction of Japanese costumes and history. The writer seems to have done a LOT of homework, too. This is NOT your typical Japan-bashing story.


It's strange, though.  It's obvious that there's a lot of research, here, yes.  Mitsuru Toyama's biography agrees with everything I can find.  The architecture and other dressing look about right to me and even change with the date represented.

On the other hand, there are significant details that seem to have been overlooked.  For example, in four instances of Japanese writing (the sign in panel 2.2, the handbill in 3.3, the banner in 4.4, and the scroll in 4.5), only the handbill resembles Japanese to my eye.  The sign looks Arabic, the banner isn't meant to be readable, and the scroll looks like random scribbling.  Also--and possibly more tellingly--even though the image of Tojo is extremely close, Toyama's image looks nothing like the real man; that's particularly confusing, since the story is his biography.

Does anybody know enough Japanese to check the relevant text or pseudo-text?


For instance, I found your "humorless" comment to be "odd," because I see this artist as primarily a cartoonist with ambitions of seriousness. You see it the other way round. Unless we can extend his/her career forward or backward, we'll probably never know which of us is more observant.


I'm mostly talking about the general composition, here.  Everything has a purpose, and nothing is exaggerated beyond its usefulness.  For example, check the Japanese man's arm in the middle panel of the last page you posted.  It's not photographic, but a photographic-style image wouldn't convey the motion, so some license was taken.  But--and this is important, in my eyes--the license taken is minimal, no more than is absolutely needed to show what's happening.  And every single figure carries this same aesthetic in their body language, even the "violent youths."

It's entirely possible that the trick was learned working on a humor strip, since you can't have frantic action without it, but then we have the literal panel composition.  We have extreme detail on the figures and anything of interest in the panel, and the rest is used for framing (including that oppressive non-sky).  Even the parallax is messed with to change the impression of depth.  Those don't seem like things you do for a humor strip.  There, when you have detail, everything is detailed (Little Nemo, for example), but normally the rule is that one or two objects get detail, and the rest are abstract.

Something else strikes me that nothing seems out of place in any frame.  I get the impression that the entire scene was drawn in one pass.  There weren't any corrections or additions, and with visuals this complicated, I'm amazed.


But, it is ALWAYS fun to try and solve this type of mystery.


Absolutely.  If it wasn't fun, I would've gladly left this to the people who are (clearly) better prepared than I am.  Wherever the line of reasoning leads, thanks for finding this guy!
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