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Centaur's odd choices...

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topic icon Author Topic: Centaur's odd choices...  (Read 23870 times)

Yoc

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2009, 08:26:52 PM »

Prize Comics #24 was a very early example of a mega-crossover story. 
And a fun read too.  It's on the site. http://tinyurl.com/ygk8cvx
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Guardian7

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2009, 08:51:01 PM »

well I don't get the reference to "Continunity Porn"... but I don't feel it is a bad thing. A longer better story is not so bad (this is not saying - I LOVE MEGA-CROSSOVERS). A few intercompany crossings does no harm and instead of having to make up a character like Amazing Man (similar in powers let's say) to appear in something like Air Man... they could just use in-house creations. Two issues is not a bad thing (it is when they start crossing into ALL the books for one story that it becomes a bit of a pain). But nothing wrong with a Guest star.

As far as Dr Synthe and Dash Dartwell... where is the difference between a team up with the two of them... and a team up between Superman and Batman? One is extrordinarily powerful and the other isn't. (Dr Synthe and the Eye might have been an interesting team-up - even though of the Centaur line... Dr Synthe is the one I least like).

JSA: Even though those heroes all teamed up and went their separate ways in most cases to solve portions/pieces of the adventure... in the end usually several of them help bring down the bad guy/menace/whatever... They did that in the Evil Star adventure I have.

Ummm and there was Continunity in Amazing Man. The situation between Aman and the Great Question shows that. Introducing Zona's brother is another... Nika... etc.

Mighty Man's continued overly long running battle with the Witch is a clear cut case of continunity (or his weirdly obsessive pursuit of Super-Ann).

I believe that there is always the possiblity that had Centaur continued that maybe they might have developed the formula first or possibly used it more often "HAD" they continued.

I think they could have done it just to "boost" sales and draw in others to "other" comics (If they had thought of it at the time).

You can't say that just because everyone else followed the same formula that had a company stayed around it might "not" have come up with the concept first... You just never know. Frankly I feel they were well on their way to doing that.

Just my opinion.

G7





« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 11:20:24 PM by Guardian7 »
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Roygbiv666

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2009, 09:28:43 PM »


well I don't get the reference to "Continunity Porn"... but I don't feel it isn't a bad thing. A longer better story is not ...
G7



I mean like: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.ContinuityPorn
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John C

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2009, 09:37:07 PM »


I think continuity developed simply to get people to buy more comic books. If the story "continued" in the next issue or in a different title, the odds increased that the reader would then buy it. Simple, really. Stan Lee took it to extremes and then the characters began to "remember" what had "happened" last issue. Sadly, those extremes are now the "norm."


That's exactly it, of course.  Continuity just refers to the property of being continuous, in fictiion the idea that what you read before is informing what you're reading now.  It didn't "develop" and nobody "created" it; it's just a tool that can be applied in a variety of ways to varying extents.

The problem is partly, as Jim points out, the idea that there's no longer a single "story," but rather an unending succession of small chapters of a "big picture" that never ends.  It has also turned comics into an Easter egg hunt on the lawn of Purgatory, where entire titles seem to exist just so the writer can make a pun based on a forty year old comic.

But more importantly to my sensibilities, there's also the problem that "continuity" has crossed over into what I'd call "syncretism," the idea that EVERYTHING that has come before must directly affect what's happening right this very second, so in mythological style, we have an endless array of reboots and reimaginings to find the "definitive" version of the character or to excuse ignoring all the millions of little details from previous writers, pencillers, editors, and publishers.

(In the back of my mind, there's a fictional ideal that anybody writing for a character would be required to read all prior appearances.  They don't need to refer to them or even remember them, but they do need to have been exposed to what has happened before.)

In the Golden Age, I don't think that many of these issues came up, because the business wasn't mature enough to track recurring readers.  What sense does it make to refer to something that happened a year ago when there aren't any back-issue bins and you don't know if any of your current readers had any clue the strip existed a year ago?  Once you have letter columns and people asking about other books, you now have a better idea of your audience's range and can be more liberal with mixing things up.  Note that the insane leveraging of continuity started really happening as the letter columns were marginalized and then discarded--the creators no longer have a barometer of audience sentiment and get their information from syncophant reviewers.

As to Centaur forming a Golden Age team...it's possible, but unlikely as a long-term thing.  Yoc pointed out one case where it looks like a good idea, at Prize.  Harvey also had a big team-up that basically fizzled (shunted to the text pages).  Fawcett had the Crime Crusaders Club that lasted for...you guessed it, a single story.  Lev Gleason launched Daredevil's series with the "Daredevil versus Hitler" set of team-ups, never to be mentioned again.  There's also an Uncle Sam story, a kind of fairy tale where many other Quality heroes can be seen in a quick cameo.

I don't know why it failed to catch on at any of those companies, but managed to be big at DC, considering that the team aspect happened at DC essentially by accident.

That's not to say that it wouldn't have happened, but I'm not sure that the market was interested, else the Crime Crushers and America's Stars would be better remembered.  It may well be that people were just buying All-Star because it had all the popular second-tier characters, rather than because of the JSA prologue and epilogue.  Anybody have any thoughts on that?
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narfstar

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2009, 10:21:34 PM »

I tend to think the JSA as a team was the draw based on the cover emphasis as a team. Remember how important the cover was at the time. Until comic fandom took off and continuity became big in the sixties the cover was the draw.
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John C

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2009, 11:06:31 PM »

Ah, but is it because of the TEAM, or because there were just a lot of characters on the cover?  As mentioned, World's Finest had the shared covers without crossovers, so there's a potential distinction to be made.

Contrast this with, for example, Quality, and their single-character covers with the bunch of insets.

I ask so pedantically because I almost wonder if the JSA made any difference to the All-Star sales.  It almost seems, given the lack of teams at other companies, that the JSA might have just been Gardner Fox amusing himself rather than his readers.
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Guardian7

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2009, 11:38:17 PM »

Okay... After seeing the "Continunity Porn" article I can see where it came from... Though I feel the language seems nothing more than shock value and something else could have been used in place of the word "porn". The things people will do to garner attention really shouldn't surprise me in this day and age (LORD... I never thought I would actually utter words like that... I certainly am starting to show I am a 65 baby! LOL).

Frankly... John C answered it all. He didn't even have to get all elaborate like he did (Though it was wonderfully wrote). I think this excerpt from JohnC says it all...

JOHN C QUOTE
(In the Golden Age) What sense does it make to refer to something that happened a year ago when there aren't any back-issue bins and you don't know if any of your current readers had any clue the strip existed a year ago?  Once you have letter columns and people asking about other books, you now have a better idea of your audience's range and can be more liberal with mixing things up.


Far as a team goes.
I think it was just a natural progression amoungst the most popular of characters (For sales at the very least - "More bang for your buck").
I can't say for absolute certain that Centaur would have done it. But it does seem they had basically started some "Ball rolling" things that are the comic industry.
I just think it is a forgone conclusion that they would have, Maybe not first... but there is no reason to think that the possibility didn't exist - It is an irrelevant subject I suppose because it never happened. I just believe hypothetically it was possibly they may have been one of the first. With the line up that Comicsnorth mentioned: Aman, Fantom, Arrow, Masked Marvel, Man of War, along with the likely female character (cause they need a secertary), My bet are on Blue Lady (Though the potential for Iron Skull or Mini-Midget/Ritty were also there I feel).

Again... all hypothetical. But there it is.

G7
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bchat

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2009, 04:46:11 PM »

I don't agree that Centaur would have eventually created a team at some point simply because if they were ever going to do it, especially to boost sales, they would have done so before they ceased publishing comics altogether.  That's not to say that I don't think team-ups would never have happened had they continued, but I don't get the impression that Joseph Hardie paid all that much attention to what the other companies were doing to the point where The JSA would have influenced Hardie to try the same thing with his characters.  Even if Centaur did create a team for their heroes, I doubt it would have included Fantoman, Masked Marvel or The Arrow, since the publisher had abandoned all three characters by 1941.
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Roygbiv666

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2009, 04:59:13 PM »


Okay... After seeing the "Continunity Porn" article I can see where it came from... Though I feel the language seems nothing more than shock value and something else could have been used in place of the word "porn". The things people will do to garner attention really shouldn't surprise me in this day and age (LORD... I never thought I would actually utter words like that... I certainly am starting to show I am a 65 baby! LOL).
G7


Well, it is a "derogatory" term and people often view porn as "derogatory" so I think that was the intent.

Are you 65 years old, or born in 1965?

Anyway, continuity is like anything else - good in moderation, but when it gets anally obsessive, no thanks.
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John C

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2009, 05:08:06 PM »


Okay... After seeing the "Continunity Porn" article I can see where it came from... Though I feel the language seems nothing more than shock value and something else could have been used in place of the word "porn".


It appears to have become an Internet idiom.  I hear frequent references to "food porn," for example, to describe  the way food shows and magazines focus (insanely, if you ask me) on the presentation over the recipes.

It's probably unrelated to this:

http://furnitureporn.com/

Which I promise won't get anybody into trouble.
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comicsnorth

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2009, 08:35:08 PM »

As for the failure of other companies to follow up on the Justice Society, it could well be that they remembered what happened to Master Man, Wonder Man, etc. and preferred to not risk being then next target of DC's lawyers.  Still, it's a shame that the Prize story wasn't expanded to book length--imho, it had the potential to hold its own with any of the golden age All-Star stuff!

-comicsnorth
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narfstar

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2009, 08:39:27 PM »

Not only did DC have one team but they followed it up with The 7 Soldier. So it would seem they believed the team concept was selling All Star
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comicsnorth

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2009, 09:46:47 PM »

Of course, the fact that only DC really followed up on All-Star kind of backs up my "fear of lawsuits" theory.

Getting back to the continuity concept for a bit, I tend to look at as more a matter of the writer building "standing sets" and adding supporting characters--look at the number of super-hero strips that failed to develop such things as a regular police contact, like Commissioner Gordon.  Centaur didn't seem to develop any recurring characters other than sidekicks and lady friends for the heroes, save for a couple of arch-foes like the Great Question and the Conqueror.

-comicsnorth
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Guardian7

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2009, 11:00:45 PM »

Roygiv

Oct 19 1965... 44... not 65... lol

Yeah DC did have both the JSA and Seven Soldiers. Great teams both.
Never was huge on western looking chara... until I discovered Vigilante and eventually the Texas Twister (Which truely is a great name).

Bchat

I only feel they may have had the Centaur line continued. Would have been a natural progression I feel and they may have ended up copying the JSA thing (only with their Superman/Aman in it).
All boils down to a matter of opinion is all *Wink!*

G7
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narfstar

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2009, 11:14:12 PM »

I see what you mean about continuity. Not so much just story line. Even in books it is the characterization that keeps me coming back for more. I think of the Dragon Riders of Pern series.  I had "friends" to revisit. Development of supporting characters could have helped build successes.
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darkmark

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2009, 01:51:03 AM »

In re: teams, if Centaur had tried something like that, most likely it would have been in the form of text stories.  Both Timely and Harvey teamed their characters up in text pieces long before (and much more often than) they did in stories.  Prize and Harvey only assembled their heroes as guest stars in a story apiece.  Fawcett had crossover cameos like mad, and occasional guest starring roles (Captain Marvel and Spy Smasher, Spy Smasher and Captain Midnight, etc.), as well as the Marvel Family, which was a no-brainer.  Lev Gleason, to the best of my knowledge, never crossed over characters.  MLJ did the occasional crossover, mostly with Shield / Wizard.  Curtis at least crossed the Twister into other stories as an intro bit.  We can think of others, possibly, but I doubt Centaur would ever have gone the JSA route.  They were too fly-by-night.
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boox909

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2009, 02:56:34 AM »


In re: teams, if Centaur had tried something like that, most likely it would have been in the form of text stories.  Both Timely and Harvey teamed their characters up in text pieces long before (and much more often than) they did in stories.  Prize and Harvey only assembled their heroes as guest stars in a story apiece.  Fawcett had crossover cameos like mad, and occasional guest starring roles (Captain Marvel and Spy Smasher, Spy Smasher and Captain Midnight, etc.), as well as the Marvel Family, which was a no-brainer.  Lev Gleason, to the best of my knowledge, never crossed over characters.  MLJ did the occasional crossover, mostly with Shield / Wizard.  Curtis at least crossed the Twister into other stories as an intro bit.  We can think of others, possibly, but I doubt Centaur would ever have gone the JSA route.  They were too fly-by-night.



I think 'Daredevil versus Hitler' was about was as close to a team up as Lev Gleason ever got.

B.
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darkmark

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2009, 01:29:31 PM »

You skunked me!  I forgot all about that one.
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boox909

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2009, 01:35:05 PM »


You skunked me!  I forgot all about that one.



::lol::  ;D  I'm just older than I let on DM.

B.  :D
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bchat

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2009, 01:43:54 PM »

Quote
In re: teams, if Centaur had tried something like that, most likely it would have been in the form of text stories.  ... but I doubt Centaur would ever have gone the JSA route.  They were too fly-by-night.


I don't think of Centaur as a "fly-by-night" company, but I do get the impression that Hardie wasn't the type of guy that was telling Funnies Inc & the various creators what he wanted them to do in regards to stories & characters.
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comicsnorth

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Re: Centaur's odd choices...
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2009, 02:58:07 PM »

Part of the problem is that, while we have some kind of documentation for the behind the scenes/editorial thinking for companies like DC/AA, Marvel/Timely, and Archie/MLJ, we have almost no clues as to just what was going on at Centaur.  A number of sources have described the various Centaur features as "coming in over the transom" (altho imho, that's a better description for the "editorial style" of Marvel's Mysticor Daring), but as far as we know, it was entirely up to Martin Filchock if he turned in a Mighty Man story or the Electric Ray on any given issue.  It does seem like something big shifted editorially when Stars & Stripes was spun out from Amazing-Man, as that was the point that Iron Skull shifted from a version of the 1970s that looked just like 1939 to what was then the present day, and soon turned into an actual costumed hero, while the "Zona with Powers" concept was thrown out the window in favor of Tommy appearing out of thin air.  Meanwhile, Super-Ann & Blue Lady seem to have been created to make up for the loss of "Amazing-Zona".  At least some of these moves had to have been on purpose, since there were so many of them at once!

-comicsnorth
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