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[Corinne]

I apologize in advance if this topic has already been discussed (or if the question is silly), but I looked and could not find an answer. I have a copy of Golden West Love, published by Kirby Publishing Company. Is this the same as Simon/Kirby I see discussed here and there, or is this something that is public domain? This industry has so many changes, it is hard to tell what's going on. 

[John C]

The absolute most important piece of information for copyright status is the publication date, not the publisher--though the publisher certainly helps distinguish among similarly-titled books.  That's because the Catalog of Copyright Entries was an annual publication listing the year's renewals--without the year, there's no way to know where to look.

Golden West Love is--oh, crap--1949-1950.  That's when the Library of Congress was migrating the Copyright Office to a computerized database, so this is always an adventure.  Heaven help you, if you're ever looking for a book copyright around that time...

Anyway, checking the database first (cacatalog.loc.gov, should you want to play along at home), I don't see anything.  However, in the catalogs (any web search will turn up Ockerbloom's scans at UPenn), I find something unexpected.  It's not quite where I'd expect it, but in late 1977, CBS filed a renewal for six issues of "Golden West Romances."

The dates seem to match up to the first three issues listed on the GCD, and the name is REALLY close, so I don't know what to make of it. 

Checking to see what Google might know...hm.  Interesting.  Yeah, rather than edit what I've already written, I'm going to just plow ahead in hopes that it helps somebody.

Here's as much of the situation as I can figure:  In 1949-50, there was the "Golden West Love" comic and an unrelated "Golden West Romances" magazine.

http://comics.org/covers.lasso?SeriesID=20012
http://www.philsp.com/data/data154.html

There are periodical renewals for the latter, but not the former.  In theory, this would mean that the comic is in the public domain, because the renewal I found is for something else.

However, some companies (and I know that Kirby did this at least once, though I don't know if this publisher is his) took the option of copyrighting and renewing their books for a full year as a normal book.  And here's where that date is important:  From 1975-78, the renewal records are sorted by renewal number, rather than title or author, and there's zero chance that anybody's going to convince me to go "dumpster diving" through hundreds of pages to see if there's a renewal buried there--imagine if the White Pages was sorted by number and you need to find me, and you have some idea of what's in there.

If pressed, I'd say that the chances that it's in the public domain are around 85%, so you and the moderators can hash things out from there...

[Corinne]

Thank you for the in-depth reply, jcolag. The comic I was referring to is v1 issue 2, Nov-Dec. 1949. It is this one:
http://comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=315286&zoom=4

Note: The vertical white bar on the upper left of the cover containing the words "Golden West Love" is not present on my copy.

It does appear that the three issues of Golden West Love are unrelated to the six issues of Golden West Romances (clearly different covers, quantities, etc.). Therefore, if the "Romances" issues were renewed and the "Love" issues were not, I agree that Golden West Love should now be in the public domain.

Incidentally, the URL cacatalog.loc.gov did not work for me. Perhaps I am missing some detail.

[John C]

Incidentally, the URL cacatalog.loc.gov did not work for me. Perhaps I am missing some detail.

That I'm an idiot who can't proofread.  Or cut-and-paste.

cocatalog.

COpyright, y'know.

Sorry.

[narfstar]

My contention would be that if jcolag is unwilling to search for the number then who would be. Yes a company that wanted the property to be theirs could/would. But it is doubtful they would go to a lot of trouble just for little old us. If they wanted us to stop and they have the copyright they would just ask us to take them down. With such a high percent probability of it being pd and even higher probability that no one would care if it was not then I say we should take it.

[JVJ]

Thank you for the in-depth reply, jcolag. The comic I was referring to is v1 issue 2, Nov-Dec. 1949. It is this one:
http://comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=315286&zoom=4

Note: The vertical white bar on the upper left of the cover containing the words "Golden West Love" is not present on my copy.

It does appear that the three issues of Golden West Love are unrelated to the six issues of Golden West Romances (clearly different covers, quantities, etc.). Therefore, if the "Romances" issues were renewed and the "Love" issues were not, I agree that Golden West Love should now be in the public domain.

Incidentally, the URL cacatalog.loc.gov did not work for me. Perhaps I am missing some detail.

Apples and oranges here, folks,
Golden West Romances was a PULP published by Standard. Golden West Love was a comic book published by Kirby. They were totally unrelated. GWL only lasted three issues, but Enchanting Love, also published by Kirby Publishing Co lasted six issues and I happen to own #6 which features the holy grail of researchers: The Statement of Ownership. The owners of KIrby Publishing Company are A.L. Kirby and Miriam Kirby, both of 88 W. Lincoln Pl. Freeport, NY.

I believe that they have no relationship to Jack Kirby (especially since Kirby is an assumed name - Jack Kirby having been born Jacob Kurtzberg). What IS interesting is that some of the material in these books appears to have originated in the Simon & Kirby shop. There's art by John Prentice, George Roussos and Bruno Premiani - all of whom worked for S&K about this time period (1949-1950). But there is also George Gregg, Ernie Schroeder, Leo Morey, Allen Bellman, Art Peddy and Tex Blaisdell - who were not S&K shop artists.

You now have a better feel for how little we actually know about some of these small companies, Corrine, but I believe you can also be pretty comfortable in the belief that KPC books are in the public domain. After all, 26 years later, A.L. and Miriam Kirby were unlikely to have considered their failed venture into publishing as valuable. Now that you know WHO was behind Kirby Publishing Company, it should also be easier to pinpoint a renewal should one have occurred.

My 2

[John C]

First, thanks for that bit of history, Jim.  That's a twist I would never have guessed.

Anyway, the difference between what we have and what "THEY" have, is that the copyright holder should have the other end of the paperwork, a receipt, for lack of a better word.  It's the difference between looking for a specific case file and...well, take a look at this:

http://shelf1.library.cmu.edu/Projects/crr/1977/1977-1-3258.tif

Imagine about another six hundred pages of that, versus a dedicated file of "what my client owns" in a lawyer's file cabinet.  Think of it like a course grade--if a former student comes to you out of the blue with just a last name, asking what you gave him years ago, it's a much more difficult job than if you ask that student.  He has fewer things to keep track of.

I'm not going to make a point of it either way, though.  I just want to make sure that I'm clear as to where the available information peters out, so the decisions aren't misinformed.

Basically, there's a real chance that someone still has the rights, but only if they used a relatively obscure rule at publication.

(I hope that somebody one day will grab and scan the entire Catalog run.  With access to the 1949 or 1950 registration, we'd know where to look for the renewal.  We could also ignore renewals for books that were never registered to begin with.)

[JVJ]

For the record, Corinne, since I have the book in my hand...
Golden West Love #2 credits:
The Tragedy at Massacre Pass - John Prentice
Price Tag on Love - George Gregg

[JVJ]

First, thanks for that bit of history, Jim.  That's a twist I would never have guessed.

Anyway, the difference between what we have and what "THEY" have, is that the copyright holder should have the other end of the paperwork, a receipt, for lack of a better word.  It's the difference between looking for a specific case file and...well, take a look at this:

http://shelf1.library.cmu.edu/Projects/crr/1977/1977-1-3258.tif

Imagine about another six hundred pages of that, versus a dedicated file of "what my client owns" in a lawyer's file cabinet.  Think of it like a course grade--if a former student comes to you out of the blue with just a last name, asking what you gave him years ago, it's a much more difficult job than if you ask that student.  He has fewer things to keep track of.

I'm not going to make a point of it either way, though.  I just want to make sure that I'm clear as to where the available information peters out, so the decisions aren't misinformed.

Basically, there's a real chance that someone still has the rights, but only if they used a relatively obscure rule at publication.

(I hope that somebody one day will grab and scan the entire Catalog run.  With access to the 1949 or 1950 registration, we'd know where to look for the renewal.  We could also ignore renewals for books that were never registered to begin with.)

The task is, indeed, daunting, jc,
which is why my own magazine cuts off at the end of 1922 - it's a slam dunk as far as PD goes. I would never have the patience to wade through 600 pages of .tif files - YIKES!

Here's a sad story relating to Kirby Publishing Co.
I had noticed that Tex Blaisdell was listed at the editor in most issues of the KPC books and wanted to know more about the company. The name and the use of S&K shop art was too bizarrely coincidental and Blaisdell had connections with other obscure comic titles (like Catholic Comics) and with the later Jacquet Shop in which I was also interested. So I arranged through a mutual acquaintance to do a phone interview with him. For ME, this entailed having the interviewee have the comic books in front of him while we talked as I'd found that this format engenders a lot of memories that have slipped away over the decades.

I sent Tex the books (all the Kirby books, plus some others from the late 40s that I knew he'd worked in) and waited. And waited. I tried to call and got no answer and no message machine. I finally tried to contact the mutual acquaintance who told me that Tex was ill and I would just have to be patient. I was, until one day out of the blue I got a call from Tex's sister who told me that he had died. She and her family were going through his effects and found my box of comics and she promised to return them to me. Sadly, that never happened and I never did jot down her name or her phone number. Over the last several years I've replaced a few of the books, but so many of them are gone forever.

The perils of research...

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[JonTheScanner]

Jack Kirby having been born Jacob Kurtsberg

Wasn't Jack's birth name Kurtzberg with a z rather than an s?

[JVJ]

Jack Kirby having been born Jacob Kurtsberg

Wasn't Jack's birth name Kurtzberg with a z rather than an s?

My bad, Jon,
You're absolutely right and I've modified the post to reflect the correction. I should KNOW not to rely on my fading memory...

Thanks for setting me straight. + one Karma for you.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[John C]

The task is, indeed, daunting, jc,
which is why my own magazine cuts off at the end of 1922 - it's a slam dunk as far as PD goes. I would never have the patience to wade through 600 pages of .tif files - YIKES!

To be fair to the guys at the Library of Congress, the only point where research is genuinely painful is the set of things registered as non-periodicals renewed from 1975-78 (published 1946-1951ish).  After that time, there's the fancy web database...unless you're looking for something with a common name.  Before that point, I've yet to find a case where I needed to look at more than ten points (all knowable in advance), and have only heard of a handful of cases where a book anybody cared about was unlisted despite a renewal.

Pre-1922 is usually a good decision.  I always feel like there's some hidden monster waiting to snap at us (a WIPO treaty that nobody has mentioned or some new memorial to war veterans), but it should generally be safe.

[JVJ]

[
Pre-1922 is usually a good decision.  I always feel like there's some hidden monster waiting to snap at us (a WIPO treaty that nobody has mentioned or some new memorial to war veterans), but it should generally be safe.

My hope is that if someone DOES claim copyright over something that I've printed that they'll demand a portion of the revenues and that will somehow translate into a portion of the LOSS I incur on each issue. One can dream...

and it's pre-1923, isn't it? 1922 is fair game according to how I've interpreted the LoC web site. And once I made that decision I really haven't used the on-line tools to research the status of anything. So I'm glad to hear that it's not that difficult.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[John C]

My hope is that if someone DOES claim copyright over something that I've printed that they'll demand a portion of the revenues and that will somehow translate into a portion of the LOSS I incur on each issue. One can dream...

Well, heck, if that's the case, move into newer material.  Offer 90% of the gross and send them the bill!

and it's pre-1923, isn't it? 1922 is fair game according to how I've interpreted the LoC web site. And once I made that decision I really haven't used the on-line tools to research the status of anything. So I'm glad to hear that it's not that difficult.

Yeah, the year is something I know, but I somehow always express it wrong.  I'm also prone to getting the last year for renewals wrong (1963, right?) for some reason.  Heh.  Turns out that I can tell time, though, so that's something...even though analog clocks are in short supply, these days...

And yes, if you can add twenty-eight (plus or minus one), it's easy.  Periodicals are listed by title (as are motion pictures, I believe), books and "parts" by author; presumably standalone art as well.  If I ever have time, I really want to just write up a web-based application that pulls the information.  That's how easy it is.

Of course, technically, that's a lie.  For our purposes here, it's unlikely that there'd be any serious lawsuit beyond a Cease and Desist letter.  For any real business application, I'd highly recommend having notarized photocopies of the CCE pages and probably an hour's search by a real copyright law house, just to make sure you have something on hand to short-circuit things.  I would certainly never suggest selling something based on what you learn from the Internet, no matter how respectable Ockerbloom appears to be.

It works on the flipside, too.  The story goes that Philip Wylie tried to sue proto-DC because several scenes in Superman's story are word-for-word lifts from "Gladiator."  But his lawyer didn't file the copyright claim properly, so the case was thrown out of court.  And, ironically, the DC/Fawcett case was also thrown out of court because the earliest Superman strips didn't have proper copyrights.  They got back in on appeal (Judge Learned Hand, who was usually more of a stickler, said it didn't matter), but it certainly shows how esoteric this can get when there's a business consideration at stake.

[Corinne]

For the record, Corinne, since I have the book in my hand...
Golden West Love #2 credits:
The Tragedy at Massacre Pass - John Prentice
Price Tag on Love - George Gregg

[narfstar]

How the artist are identified is what JVJ does Corinne. He is one of the artist ID experts. Although he does not care to called such. There are a small group (too small) of dedicated individual with a talent for recognizing the work of certain artists. I have a few that jump out at me but unfortunately they are the most commonly recognized. By comparing signed/known examples of artists work and using knowledge of the time periods an artists was working for a certain company/shop the artists can be identified with a certain degree of certainty. Note that Jim was only able to make a best guess on a couple while be pretty certain on the others. Just a note of an art ID that made me feel good was an issue of Boris Karloff, I was struck that a particular panel looked like something from Professor Harbinger the Doctor Solar back-up. I checked the GCD and found they were both Mel Crawford. Made me feel pretty good as it has been well over a decade since I even looked at a Harbinger. JVJ points out that it is as much a feeling as an identification of artistic points. That panel just struck a note as looking like something from Harbinger.

[narfstar]

For the record, Corinne, since I have the book in my hand...
Golden West Love #2 credits:
The Tragedy at Massacre Pass - John Prentice
Price Tag on Love - George Gregg

[JVJ]

Incidentally, the credits you mention are not listed anywhere in the issue--at least as far as I have been able to tell. Using this as an example, how does anyone determine how to credit the various writers, pencilers, colorists, inkers, etc. if they are not listed in the book?

That's like asking someone how they sing or draw (neither of which I can do with any skill), Corrine.
It's a talent that I've been honing for the past 40+ years. My friend John Benson is able to recognize certain writers by their style - which I find simply mind-boggling. Yet he does it with apparent ease. Like any skill, you have to practice and practice and practice. It's what I like to do and I've gotten fairly good at some of the artists, but there are just SO many that I still don't know. Sigh... And I probably never will know. There's a thread here http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1108.0.html that's rather extended but does touch on some of the things I look for and at and at some artists I'm still trying to learn the names of.

I realize that this is not a very satisfying answer, but it's the way things are.

Hope that helps.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Yoc]

Sounds like it's fairly safe to scan Corinne.
Go for it.

Jim, wow, what a sad story about Tex Blaisdell and your lost comics.

-Yoc

[JVJ]

Sounds like it's fairly safe to scan Corinne.
Go for it.

Jim, wow, what a sad story about Tex Blaisdell and your lost comics.

-Yoc

The sad part of the story, Yoc,
is that I never got to talk to Tex. Comics can be replaced, Tex can't. And the information he might have been able to share is lost forever. THAT'S sad!

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Corinne]

Provide the scans Corinne and I can index it for the GCD using JVJ's info

Sounds like it's fairly safe to scan Corinne.
Go for it.
---snip---

OK, started the process (but it will be a while before I'm done--the comic is big).

[Corinne]

Hi Everyone--OK, it is finished and uploaded in unsorted.  I suspect it may stay there, since I did not see any folder for Kirby.

[narfstar]

Unsorted is the place to be. No category do I see. Comics spreading out so far and wide. Keep your Marvel just give us Kirby love.

[darkmark]

The scans!
The fans!
Online!
So fine!
You are my site...
Goodbye, offline life!
GAUK, we're there!

[Yoc]

LOL,
I read DM's post above and picture cheerleaders shouting it out.

"GAUK - Fight, Fight, Fight!"