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A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...

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topic icon Author Topic: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...  (Read 6642 times)

jfglade

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A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« on: August 17, 2009, 06:08:40 PM »

 I'm sure most folks who use this forum are familiar with DC's revision about the Spider having been a member of the Seven Soldiers of Victory/Law's Legionaires instead of Green Arrow and Speedy, with the additional wrinkle that the Spider was also a master criminal pretending to be a hero (an idea pinched from the original Batman story featuring Deadshot, and probably used several times before then).

My question deals only with the original thirty golden age stories in the "Alias the Spider" series; other than the stories in 'Crack Comics' #1 and #26, can anyone cite issue numbers of other stories in which the Spider deliberately kills a criminal, spy, Cricket member, or what have you? For that matter, I find one panel in the Alias the Spider story from 'Crack Comics' #26 to be confusing; the villain of the piece shoots the Spider and "Dr. Monk" (who apparently is a returning enemy) and is going to kill or transform a woman when the Spider apparently kills the villain, but the drawing of the villain about to be struck by some jagged object is confusing. Can anyone identify what the object is on the last page that is shown about to strike the villain. It does not appear to be one of the "Spider seals," and it does not look like any arrowhead I have ever seen. I'm less worried about what the mystery object might be than I am about how many stories there are in which the Spider resorts to the use of lethal force.

Basically, I'm looking for evidence to refute or confirm Jess Nevins' claim from his Directory of Golden Age Heroes site that the Spider was a "killer vigilante" (a term which Nevins did not define). I've looked at a number of stories in which the Spider kills no one, wantonly or otherwise, and I'm starting to wonder if I have already found the only two exceptions.

Help would be appreciated, although I wouldn't mind some discussion about heroes who kill their enemies in general.

Thanks in advance,
Jon
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John C

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 09:27:23 PM »

I haven't yet read them, but I do know that Nevins, at times, relied heavily on second-hand information, especially when the original sources weren't easily available.  I've found plenty of spots where "informants" grossly misled him on Victorian stories, so I wouldn't expect perfection from his comics information, either.

Which is absolutely not to say that his material shouldn't be read or that his books shouldn't be on everybody's shelves.  They're excellent resources for picking out things that might be interested to read.

Regarding the Spider himself, I'd say if he killed one person, then he's a killer.  But I can be a little strict about such things...
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Ed Love

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 10:52:02 PM »

Jess has some interesting biases as well. He's obviously a big fan of Victorian era literature, but hates Sherlock Holmes. He's upfront about his total disdain for Roy Thomas and his retcons. But, he reveres Alan Moore. He casually tosses out the "killer vigilante" label and is often critical of the stories he's reading. But, even before Brubaker did his retcons on Bucky, Jess in fanfic wrote all the Timely heroes in wartime using guns, killing, whoring and strike-busting.

He's not updated his online heroes sites in some time which is why I started my own. There are quite a few missing and some errors that haven't been corrected. At the time that he launched it, there wasn't much in the way of online reprints sooo...

The problem I have with the "killer vigilante" label is that is used a bit too all encompassing and indiscriminately. There's a difference between a hero that will kill in defense and someone like the Punisher whose goal from the get go is to kill the criminals. Most of the so-called killer vigilantes are more than willing to turn the crooks over to the police if given the opportunity. Look at the Hangman who is often given a bad rap but actually very rarely killed a villain and sought to capture them, they usually died accidentally by their own hands. Yet, Captain America let a guy drown without lifting a finger to save him without anyone calling him a "killer".

We're also being guilty of judging the characters by today's standards. One, the creators were often little more than teenagers. Their morality was a little more black and white, their storytelling more lurid and power fantasies. While the pulps' Shadow and Spider often were careful about the heroes killing, the why's of it and what it meant (and both of these held up as being bloodthirsty and violent, only killed in cases where it was necessary, the stories were just built so that it was often necessary)

Two, the whole concept of superheroes and continuity were still forming and completely different than what they are today. Back then, even with the bad science and storytelling, there was a certain more realism to the characters. The heroes weren't as uber as they are today. Batman or Captain America could be beat up by a couple of normal crooks, imagine either of them getting beat up by anything less than a group of ten highly trained or enhanced fighters nowadays. Even powered bulletproof guys like the Fighting Yank or the Black Terror had trouble when taking on a multitude of opponents. In those early days, there was nothing wrong about a hero using lethal force any more than it was for a cop or a soldier to kill a hero, they weren't considered any more un-heroic for doing so. In the context of the times, it would have been seen as being stupid and unrealistic for a non-powered hero not to be willing to use lethal force in some situations.

Characters that didn't were given extreme reasons not to. Doc Savage was such a genius that he developed bulletproof undergarments for he and his men and guns and other devices that could incapacitate without killing (and at least two of his men, still killed if they saw justice in it), the Shadow didn't have that kind of luxury, it wasn't the type of world he operated in. This carries through to the comics, it makes no sense for a character like Superman or Captain Marvel to kill their opponents, they have the power that their adversaries are often no danger to them physically.

As we get further into the 1940s, it seems fewer heroes are killing their opponents unless they were fighting Nazis and the Japanese. The Hangman was less bloodthirsty than his brother the Comet. We see the superhero format becoming more stable as fewer heroes are satisfied fighting crime in just a suit, fedora and mask; the Crimson Avenger, Sandman, and Wizard had all traded theirs in by that point as well as the latter two getting kid partners. Villains still died, but it was more in the Doc Savage or Avenger way, through accident of their own evil designs. Even non-powered heroes by this point were considered to be able to capture large groups of gun-toting bad guys with nothing but their bare fists.
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narfstar

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 11:33:25 PM »

I know some may not agree but I firmly believe most violent criminals deserve killing. I think that any cop catching a crook in the act of a violent crime should be able to execute them on the spot. If they turn and run shoot them in the back. The number of violent crimes would go down dramatically both from fewer repeat offenders and from crooks considering the consequences of their actions. I am reading the current series Absolution where the hero kill the criminals deserving of killing. He is saving far more than he is hurting. I believe Superman to be responsible for Lex Luthor's crimes for not killing him and Batman responsible for the Joker's crimes every time he escapes. I recommend everyone read JLA/Hitman. The greater good of society should weigh in on morality.
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boox909

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 12:39:26 AM »


I know some may not agree but I firmly believe most violent criminals deserve killing. I think that any cop catching a crook in the act of a violent crime should be able to execute them on the spot. If they turn and run shoot them in the back. The number of violent crimes would go down dramatically both from fewer repeat offenders and from crooks considering the consequences of their actions. I am reading the current series Absolution where the hero kill the criminals deserving of killing. He is saving far more than he is hurting. I believe Superman to be responsible for Lex Luthor's crimes for not killing him and Batman responsible for the Joker's crimes every time he escapes. I recommend everyone read JLA/Hitman. The greater good of society should weigh in on morality.


I love the pre-Robin Golden Age Batman -- he would as soon as knock a bad guy off as leave them for the cops to clean up. Who can forget the Dark Knight raining down lead justice upon crashed zombie-monster men -- and the time he cleaned up Dr. Death -- oh the fan boy joy!

:'( Those where the stories that made you tear up and proud to be a man.

B.  ;D
Goofy as usual...
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narfstar

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 12:58:59 AM »

Reading Batman from the start in the Archive edition and feel it went down with the introduction of Robin and loss of guns. Probably a good decision in the long run because what really sets batman off is his brain and detective skills
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darkmark

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 02:28:56 AM »

OK, here we go:  in CRACK COMICS #1 the Spider kills the Cricket and all his gang.  The only bit of remorse shown is when he goes to the gang's wrecked car and remarks that it's too late to save them.

In #2 he shoots a crook named Patterson IN THE BACK with an arrow and there's little doubt the guy is dead.

In #4 he hits another crook named Marlin in the face and knocks him down a mine shaft to his death, though he admits that wasn't his idea.  (Shame!)

In #5 he doesn't kill any crooks, but makes up for it by killing a gorilla.  That'd earn him a hefty fine, these days.

In #7 it's possible that he kills one gunsel, but it's not certain from the picture.

In #8 he kills one crook with the help of a sheriff.  (Both of them shot at the same time.)

In #9, he doesn't intentionally kill a crook, but he does pin him with an arrow to the door of a shop which the bad guy has set a bomb in, so...

In #10, he shoots a bad guy through the chest and then kills the rest of the gang with a net that contracts around them and strangles them.

In #12, he tells the head Cricket that he won't escape this time, and sends an arrow streaking right for his face.  That's the last panel.

In #13 he evades death by throwing a strongarm guy into a hole that drops 500 feet to an underground river and shoots the Professor with an arrow, killing him.

In #14 he kills another hulking bad guy in a fight.

IN #17 he arrows one of the Green Horde to death and then pulls a switch that kills the rest of their zombie clan.  He also strangles a mastermind, but it isn't certain whether the guy is out or dead, so I'll not credit him with that.

In #26, he shoots an arrow at a bad guy's throat.  We don't see the rest of it, but I can imagine the rest.

In #29, when the Fly (that's right, The Fly) comes at him, he knocks him over the edge of a roof.

#30 was his last appearance and he didn't kill anybody in that story.  I don't have data from #19 or 20.  But yeah, I think we can call him a vigilante.  However, compared to guys like the Clock or the Sniper, he was positively conservative.  So much for that.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 02:31:34 AM by darkmark »
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Yoc

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 02:49:50 AM »

Great summery work DM, thanks!
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Astaldo711

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 03:27:46 AM »


I know some may not agree but I firmly believe most violent criminals deserve killing. I think that any cop catching a crook in the act of a violent crime should be able to execute them on the spot. If they turn and run shoot them in the back. The number of violent crimes would go down dramatically both from fewer repeat offenders and from crooks considering the consequences of their actions. I am reading the current series Absolution where the hero kill the criminals deserving of killing. He is saving far more than he is hurting. I believe Superman to be responsible for Lex Luthor's crimes for not killing him and Batman responsible for the Joker's crimes every time he escapes. I recommend everyone read JLA/Hitman. The greater good of society should weigh in on morality.

;D Here here! If the criminals knew that they ran the risk of coming to personal harm, they would think twice about committing a violent crime.
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jfglade

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 03:48:32 AM »

  I agree with Yoc, Dark Mark has answered my question and has done so with solid supporting material. It certainly seems that Nevins did have justification for calling the Spider a "killer vigilante."

  Thanks to all who answered, even Jim with whom I do not agree about it being a wonderful idea to allow police to act as judge, jury, and executioner which I believe would lead to more violence, not less.
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Yoc

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2009, 05:05:33 AM »

I'm guessing Judge Dredd has a special place in Narf's library.
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narfstar

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2009, 10:16:01 AM »

I fondly remember reading my first Judge Dredd and agreeing with much of the concept.
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John C

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2009, 02:35:07 PM »

My objections to heroes killing is plot-based:  Unless the hero is so spectacularly unpopular that nobody's reading, they'll always win through.  So you can never construct a scenario where the hero MUST kill in order to save civilization.  It's merely a contrived exercise where only the most expedient options are considered, and expedience is boring in the extreme (except when played for humor value, or course).

Taking it a step further, if the heroes are allowed to escalate, how do you write a story where the villains sensibly don't?  For example, if Batman just up and kills the Joker, the next costumed nihilist to come along might as well just wipe Gotham off the map with a nuclear bomb.  No warning, no countdown, no Batman.

In reality, my objection to cops killing criminals is that it makes a series of assumptions that are all different ways of saying that the government is always right and sovereign, and the rest of us are just subjects.  Call me paranoid, but given the number of unjust laws and the possibility that a cop could be wrong or, y'know, lie about "needing" to kill someone, it just doesn't wash for me.  It may be a viscerally satisfying concept, but it's not a very good intellectual argument.

Plus, I obviously don't know first-hand, but I'm told that killing isn't an experience you just walk away from unless you're a sociopath.  It's traumatic, and many cops go through years of therapy to recover from shooting some creep in self-defense.  The increase in military suicides might be related, given that the troops aren't exactly given the best care.

There's also the escallation issue here, which we already see.  Precincts have increasingly become militarized, with higher-end weapons, protective clothing, and so forth.  And cops do kill a fair number of people.  So what's the response?  Now the crooks have exploding bullets to penetrate the armor, blow up cars and buildings, and take hostages more consistently, endangering the rest of us even more.  Somehow, that doesn't make me feel safer.
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boox909

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2009, 02:56:40 PM »


I fondly remember reading my first Judge Dredd and agreeing with much of the concept.



Considering the rules of ol' Joe's environment, Judge Dredd does indeed rule. I have logged many hours following Judge Dredd. I own a copy of the dvd, and who doesn't love the Anthrax song "I Am The Law"?

But you know, this thread is getting kinda gloomy -- everyone is making some good points, but this is just comics, not real world...ok, for most of us this is just comics  ;D


B.  :D
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phabox

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 03:27:11 PM »

...And of course being 'just comics' no writer in his right mind wants to kill off a really 'great' villain for good.

Granted they are often seen to 'die' but the likes of The Joker, Doctor Doom and The Red Skull ALWAYS return ...sooner of later !!!

-Nigel
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Astaldo711

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2009, 05:22:50 PM »

I just read a story with Magno and Davey battling The Clown. He was shot and stabbed and still alive. Some of these villains have the constitution of Rasputin. I think most of the evil doers the heroes killed were of the generic henchmen type.
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comicsnorth

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2009, 08:22:02 PM »

That's certainly the rule for "killer vigilantes" today--characters like the Punisher or Wolverine can kill rooms full of henchmen, but somehow consistently miss a target the size of the Kingpin, since any villain who has or may likely get their own action figures must always be allowed to live, no matter what.

-comicsnorth
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crimsoncrusader

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2009, 08:22:44 PM »

I agree with John's points. If you have a hero who kills criminals then what makes him any different than the villain. He's not really a hero then at all, he becomes a hypocrite who tries to keep order through chaos. Also, as a writer you back yourself into a corner if you just killed of a villain that the readers liked and now you have to come up with a way of reversing his death such as Marvel killing Green Goblin and then bringing him back during the Clone Saga. Never should have killed him in the first place.
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Ed Love

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2009, 08:36:58 PM »

Is that saying since cops kill, they are no different from the criminals? In WWII our soldiers killed, no different from Hitler and the Nazis? Or because they kill, they shouldn't be considered heroes?

The law recognizes there are times when it's ok for cops to kill and times when it's not. For the killer vigilante to work in fiction, there needs to be an acknowledgement that yes, he kills and it's against the law, in the eyes of the Law he's a criminal. But, from the point of view of the story, the killing needs to also be justifiable and understandable, every killing and death serves justice. The hero doesn't kill someone that's already incapacitated, but he will kill someone holding a person hostage. Even for an "anti-hero" like the Punisher or a lot of sympathetic monsters, the killing is still written to be justifiable. You don't have them accidentally killing those that don't deserve it, or leading to the deaths of cops and such. Unless you plan on telling a whole different story and one that probably shouldn't be told in a continuity driven shared-universe as it would undermine the viability of all the other heroes that will kill if they think it is justified.
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crimsoncrusader

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2009, 01:55:39 AM »

First off I'm not saying out soldiers or cops who kill in self-defense and to protect or nation are not heroes, nor I am talking about killing from a legal standpoint, but a moral one. Man-made laws can be morally wrong even though legally they are acceptable, but there are universal moral laws that we must answer to. Take slavery or abortion for example they are morally wrong but at one point or another completely legal in the United States. If a hero kills every villain he feels deserves to die then he is playing God, deciding who lives and who dies. Now if your only choice available is you kill this guy or he is going to kill you and you have exhausted every other option that is different than becoming your own personal judge, jury, and executioner like the Punisher. There is no justice in that only revenge which as Yoda tells us leads to the Dark Side of the Force. It all comes down to Object, Intention, and Circumstance which is the method to analysis the morality of any act. So its not a matter of if he is a law abiding citizen, but a hero who does the right thing.

Honestly, I'm just not a huge fan of killer vigilantes. I like heroes who have such great willpower that they no matter what they do not kill or cross the line that would make them the villain. Anyone can kill when pushed to their breaking point, but a hero that can withstand the pressure and never cave are just more impressive.
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Ed Love

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2009, 05:19:56 AM »

I agree with you. I'm more of a fan of Doc Savage than I am the Shadow or the Spider of the pulps. But, I like them too.

But, it is getting back to a point I was making earlier and that is how we define superheroes now and how they were defined then and the fallacy to judge Alias the Spider in the context of today's heroes when he wasn't created with that context in mind. It's as big a fallacy to judge the Shadow, Phantom Detective or the Spider by the standards that Doc Savage or even the Avenger set against causing directly the death of their foes. The heroes and the way they related to their worlds and the way their worlds worked was not meant to be the same. Doc was a super-genius who invented various ways to combat crime that protected him and his men reasonably well and could take out crooks without killing them. The Avenger was created to be such a good shot that he could just crease a man's skull with a bullet, rendering him unconscious. They didn't kill, but special effort was made on behalf of their creators so that they didn't have to. The rest of the heroes didn't have that luxury. They operated in worlds where the criminals had guns and weren't afraid to use them. Unlike modern day superheroes, they didn't have reflexes so good that they could wade into a group of killers and somehow manage to dodge all the bullets (although the Shadow came close at times). They were great shots but not as superhuman as the Avenger was with his gunplay. Like your cops, soldiers, and private detectives (even Sherlock Holmes), their chosen careers meant at times they had to kill. And, as these were lurid pulps, this happened at least once a month. It is not that these heroes are less moral than the modern day superheroes, it's they operate in a world where the rules work differently. If their gunfights and the never occurring innocent bystanders in the crossfire seem contrived, it is no more so than the Teen Titans taking on an army of foes armed to the teeth and no one getting shot.

We must recognize that the strip Alias the Spider is in many ways the comic equivalent of the Spider pulps, only armed with a bow and arrow. It's a world where pitting oneself against enemies the police are unable to stop means being willing to kill if one seeks to live another day. It's not as if he is able to not only build dozens of different non-lethal but effective arrows AND able to select the right one and shoot decently at a moment's notice and yet chooses not to do so but to use the maiming an lethal pointed arrows (that's Grell's take on the Green Arrow), it's that it is never presented as a viable option in the stories. Some of his shots might only wound, but to shoot to wound in a gun-fight is asking to be killed. The lethal nature of being a crimefighter and being on the outside of the law was an accepted aspect of many characters at the time. Even if the heroes didn't directly kill the bad guys, it was still casually accepted as being better that way.
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John C

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2009, 04:32:41 PM »

I still have difficulty with "heroes" who kill from a narrative standpoint.  Say what you will about the time, but an expedient solution like killing undercuts the drama.  To me, it's breaking the contract between writer and reader, in that...well, if you're going to take the easy way out, then it highlights how silly it is, in comparison, for the hero to ever fight the villains fairly, for the villains to use a deathtrap, or for any of them to be wearing striking costumes when something more comfortable and discreet would do.

You used Green Arrow as an example, and I'm inclined to do the same:  If it's OK for Ollie to take the easy way out and just kill someone, why the heck is he wasting his time prancing around like Robin Hood when he could wear fatigues and carry a rifle instead.  It's more convenient and gives him a better chance of success, doesn't it?  And isn't that why killing was an acceptable option?

Self-defense seems like a particularly shallow defense for a self-proclaimed hero, too, especially when you consider (as I mentioned before) that the hero isn't in any danger if he's popular enough to be published, even if you grant the sort of Machiavellian morality needed to make the argument fly (that the hero can't save lives if he's dead, I mean).  If you're not good enough to hack it in the field without leaving a trail of blood, then maybe you should just be sitting at home donating to worthy charities like the rest of us.

Of course, it's possible to write a story well enough that the readers never consider those questions, and many Pulps (and most other media) did, but it doesn't work well at all for superheroes because their over-the-top adventures make the contrast more apparent.

(Mind you, I disagree that soldiers are heroes by definition, too.  Whatever one thinks about wars in general or specific wars, they're primarily doing what they're told.  So are their commanders also heroes?  What about the politicians that dumped them into the mess?  Is it different if there was a draft?  How about the taxpayers that fund it all?  Can I put that on my resume...?)
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Ed Love

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2009, 06:29:55 PM »

Actually my example of Ollie was a dig at Mike Grell and to show how it is not ok for him to kill but no problem with the Arrow or the Spider killing. Grell set out in Longbow Hunters and the follow-up series to tell more sophisticated stories with greater realism, making Green Arrow more of a street level hero. Most of it was quite good with different stories. However, either he or DC wanted their cake and eat it to, so a method was adopted to tell those type of stories without actually taking the character out of continuity. He was moved to a real city far away from known superhero locales (Seattle). When Hal Jordan guest-starred, it was as Hal Jordan not Green Lantern. Nothing in the series contradicted the DCU and continuity, it just didn't reference it. A great way to do it. To go along with this more basic approach to a superhero, they also had GA give up his trick arrows. This was presented what was first a minor problem that grew into a big one. He was using real arrows, which really hurt. His shots were sometimes along the lines of the old cowboys shooting guns out of a person's hand, but sometimes it was putting arrows through people's hands, a maiming shot. As the series progressed, his shooting grew less fancy, to the point that while fighting the Yakuza, he was using killing shots.

The problem was, while this fits the tone and realistic level of the series and had it been Quality's Spider or Centaur's Arrow, it would have been fine. However, as noted above, this title was still an in-continuity title which meant we're not talking about a generic archer superhero but a specific hero whose own history has him good enough to build trick arrows and such (much of that purpose had to be to turn a lethal weapon into a non-lethal one) and use them without sacrificing control. It is also part of his history that he has strong feelings about killing, that he joined a monastery when he accidentally killed someone. He's also part of a shared-universe where the Flash was drummed out of the JLA for killing, that there were serious consequences for heroes that killed.  For Green Arrow, then, killing or not killing his foes is an actual choice because it's part of his story that he's good enough that he doesn't have to in most situations. Even though Grell took a lot of pains to set up a new world and rules for his Green Arrow book, those rules still have to take a back-seat to the whole concept and rules of continuity and a shared-universe. He cannot ignore the fact that in the DCU, Green Arrow is a good enough archer that he doesn't have to maim or kill.

But, a lot of those rules were not in place back in the 40s. Heroes were more of the outsiders, the upsetters of the status quo, doing the jobs that it seemed the cops couldn't or wouldn't do. They were about seeking Justice not upholding the Law, different things. The writers of the pulps made sure the bad guys so outnumbered the hero and so monstrous and fiendish, that killing was a matter of survival, his and the people he had sworn to protect. Not all superheroes are the same, the rules governing their titles and their motivations and purpose have to be taken into account. Mind you, there's a lot of modern superhero comics I don't read because they are so casual about the heroes killing while being equally shallow about their motivations, turning the heroes and superhero concept into one of fascism and gloryseekers/rock-star wannabes. I accept the Shadow and the Spider and Peacemaker killing because the writers made it work in the world they operate in and the type of characters they were. It's harder when someone with the power of Captain Marvel kills a normal person already captured (as Geoff Johns did with Black Adam yet fans defended him as a "hero"). I agree, most superheroes shouldn't kill, not with what superheroes are today. But, I don't have a problem with a title like the Vigilante if it's done well and makes sure that by being that type of character, he does exist on the outskirts of the superhero and Law & Order community.

My thing about soldiers wasn't that I think being a soldier or a cop automatically makes someone a hero it was the point of view that says because he killed or is willing to kill, he automatically wouldn't be. That somehow the people trying to assassinate Hitler should be viewed as failures not because they failed in killing him but because they were trying to kill him instead of capturing him.
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John C

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Re: A Question about the 'Alias the Spider' series...
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2009, 07:23:51 PM »

I get the Green Arrow example, but there's more to it, I think.  Yes, there's the continuity issue, but that's fine if you just say that "hey, things change" and move on.  You're right that it affects everybody else indirectly, but that's not all that's going on.

(We also agree, I think, that in the service of a good story, you're allowed to be somewhat inconsistent, both in continuity and morality.)

The most glaring thing I saw when reading the Grell series, though, had nothing to do with what the JLA thought of him.  It was that someone who's so outclassed that he "needs" to maim or kill to survive has no business carrying around a longbow and dressing like a Keebler elf.  You can't introduce a measured quantity of "realism" and expect the remainder of the four-colored world to be a viable backdrop.

In the real world, if you need an advantage over an opponent and you don't have trick arrows at hand, then the bow is simply not an appropriate weapon.  It'd be like reimagining Wolverine to carry a Swiss Army Knife instead of claws--treating it realistically is going to outright hobble the guy.

To me, it's also not about the power level.  Is it OK for Superman to kill, just as long as he's overwhelmed?  What if it's an even fight?  What if they guy looked tougher than he actually was?  What if he's emotionally overwhelmed, rather than physically?  If any of these, doesn't it just mean that Superman gets to kill whenever the writer feels like it?  What other parts of the writer's "contract" are only at the writer's fiat?

Actually, I have a counterexample to the Green Arrow (and Pulp) example in Tom Strong.  The literary boy hero, I mean, not the Alan Moore thingie that I've never read.  In the first book ("Washington's Scout"), Tom joins up with the Colonial Army and participates in multiple battles, rifle a-blazing and (presumably) racking up a pretty big count of dead bodies.  He's fourteen, but it's wartime in a realistic book, so we expect a certain amount of acceptable carnage, and don't hold him to special morality.

Except...about midway through the book, he and his (adult) sidekick capture a Hessian sentry.  When the older guy is about to slit the German's throat, Tom makes an impassioned plea to save him, because killing is wrong.

Again, note the problem:  It's OK for Tom to shoot enemy soldiers, but it's somehow not OK for him to stand by while an allied soldier kills a single enemy soldier.  The situational morality (which is what this really is--the rules are different on a literal battlefield) looks like absurdist hypocrisy, considering that the sentry is every bit as dangerous.  What makes those two situations SO different (other than the Hessian needed to play a significant role later in the book) where Tom is sensibly right?

As you probably already know, Mason wrote this over a hundred years ago, predating the Pulps as we expect them.  Sure, it's kiddie-lit, but it's still a useful data point, I think, because it certainly inspired them.

Along more Pulpy lines, I'll also note Jimmie Dale, dating back as far as the 1910s, who carries a gun everywhere, but never uses it AS a gun.  He'll threaten with it (Zorro-like), club people over the head, and even use the muzzle flash to see in the dark, but in all five books, I can't think of a single instance where he fires a bullet at anything, and he spends all five books fairly thoroughly overwhelmed by mobs of thugs.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing the point.  These are personal and aesthetic judgements, I think.  There are people who believe that killing isn't a particularly bad thing, and there are people who believe it's the absolute worst thing anybody can do to any living thing.  My main point is, essentially, that heroes who kill inherently violate their own premise, and it doesn't matter how many excuses are supplied by the writer.  It can be done well enough that nobody cares, but that's much harder to do.
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