[archiver_USA]

It might be time to rethink the name of this hodge-podge section:
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3580607#Post3580607

(or at the very least get books moved into more appropriate locations?)

[Yoc]

Hi Archiver,
I can move books around but until the site is fixed any category mistakes will have to remain.


Any other opinions on the link AU posted?

[John C]

I'm not sure I follow the argument to the proper conclusion, so it might be useful if someone could summarize the relevant parts.  My impression is that we're saying that Croydon is part of Star, rather than Rural, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming that's the target, I'm not sure I buy it.  The evidence is a list from a year when Rural and Croydon weren't significant, I believe, so it might not be relevant at all to the titles we have.

It also relies on the idea that common shareholders require a corporate equivalence.  But...well, let's give a big example:  Microsoft owns something like thirty percent of all Apple stock.  Does that mean that the iPhone is a Microsoft product?

Again, I could be misreading the situation.  But it looks to me like we'd (well, "you'd") be moving books to where they'd be less likely to be found based on paperwork that might not be accurate or relevant, so I'd personally rather not until there's better information.

[Yoc]

Exactly my thoughts John.
Why make them even harder to find?

[archiver_USA]

I'm not sure I follow the argument to the proper conclusion, so it might be useful if someone could summarize the relevant parts.  My impression is that we're saying that Croydon is part of Star, rather than Rural, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think that is the conclusion. Croydon has nothing to do with Rural Home, but we use Croydon as the category name where Rural Home books are located. I looked at the PDF and it does contain entries for Croydon Publishing Company with three addresses, the first is the 108 West 39th Street, New York, the next two are 286 Fifth Avenue, New York and 545 Fifth Avenue, New York, which are the same two addresses used by Star Comics.

If Croydon Publishing Company was a precursor to the Star Comics line, then we've got a real hodge-podge category here on GAC.

I think we need a new category for the real Rural Home books and not have them under Croydon. I'm not sure if its easier to create a new category and move some books there, or move the Croydon books to Star and rename the Croydon category to Rural Home -- I'm also not sure if Rural Home is the best name to use any longer; Universal Comic Group does have some appeal. American Comics Group and Quality Comic Group were the advertising company names behind the comic published by a group of imprint companies and those are the names we use. Does JVJ have any thoughts on this? The only thing I'm sure of is Croydon is just wrong as the category name as it appears to have nothing to do with the Rural Home books.  

I checked GCD and they have Croydon and Rural Home split apart from each other.

[archiver_USA]

And not to change the topic of my own suggestion, but does anyone know why the Lucky/Key comics are in this group:
Home > Small Press and Unsorted Files > Continental

Continental is one of the Temerson imprints used to print Cat-Man. Lucky/Key were published by Consolidated Magazines not Continental Magazines.

[John C]

I think that is the conclusion. Croydon has nothing to do with Rural Home, but we use Croydon as the category name where Rural Home books are located. I looked at the PDF and it does contain entries for Croydon Publishing Company with three addresses, the first is the 108 West 39th Street, New York, the next two are 286 Fifth Avenue, New York and 545 Fifth Avenue, New York, which are the same two addresses used by Star Comics.

Two questions, here.

First, how do we know that Rural and Croydon are unrelated?  I don't know of the evidence supporting it, but I can't imagine they've been lumped together for decades without any demonstrable relationship.

Second, do we know that those addresses were offices?  I mean, those addresses are midtown Manhattan, competing for rental space with much larger budgets.  Because of this, up until recently, there has been a tradition of what we'd today call "virtual offices" in those buildings, companies that would rent a tiny space and handle phones and shipping for a large number of much smaller companies who want the prestige of a Fifth Avenue address.

I don't know either way, but it could well be that Star and Croydon just happened to have a contract with just such a virtual company, which moved and/or transferred its clients, explaining the change in addresses.  If that were the case, it would be no more conclusive than DC and Marvel, today, both using Diamond as their distributor.

I checked GCD and they have Croydon and Rural Home split apart from each other.

Honestly, the ideal is probably to deal with each publisher name as a separate publisher, and then have a page somewhere that details the known and possible connections.  But for the moment, I'm also perfectly content to see the "wrong" organization that everybody's expecting anyway.  After all, assuming any of us could name a Croydon book, would we think to look for it under the Star titles?

(And yeah, I'm sure the Continental name is just a typo.  Aussie and I even discussed Consolidated and the Tops/Lucky books, at one point, so I know she knew it existed when those books were posted.)

[archiver_USA]

Two questions, here.

First, how do we know that Rural and Croydon are unrelated?  I don't know of the evidence supporting it, but I can't imagine they've been lumped together for decades without any demonstrable relationship.

Second, do we know that those addresses were offices?  I mean, those addresses are midtown Manhattan, competing for rental space with much larger budgets.  Because of this, up until recently, there has been a tradition of what we'd today call "virtual offices" in those buildings, companies that would rent a tiny space and handle phones and shipping for a large number of much smaller companies who want the prestige of a Fifth Avenue address.

From the PDF, the dates of Croydon Publishing Company extend into the time period of the Star Comics line. When Star Comics moved locations, Croydon Publishing moved to the same locations. Couple that with the researcher identifying the owner of Star Comics, Jerome Kramer, being the owner of Croydon is compelling enough to link Croydon to Star IMO.

The only thing linking Croydon and Rural Home is some of the content for each company came from Lloyd Jacquet. Which may have been the reason someone in the past lumped Croydon and Rural Home.

[kquattro]

First, how do we know that Rural and Croydon are unrelated?  I don't know of the evidence supporting it, but I can't imagine they've been lumped together for decades without any demonstrable relationship.

My belief is that while there are some visual relationships between many of these comics (based upon similar content supplied by a few comic shops) and, in some cases, similar addresses for the offices of publication, it is a leap to assume all are related to one another. In some instances--maybe many instances--the publisher of record was just a front for a more established publisher who didn't want their "good name" associated with comics. It could be that one big-name publisher owned multiple small ones. But unless we have demonstrable proof, it's only speculation. My suggestion would be to put all of these small publishers into a Miscellaneous Publishers category. No harm, no foul. If future research reveals a definite link, then a new category could be created at that time.

Second, do we know that those addresses were offices?

Again, I think too much can be made about the coincidental addresses of various publishers. The address of 545 Fifth Avenue was not only the address of Star, but also St. John, and there hasn't been any relationship shown between those two publishers. These are large office buildings and the same address does not necessarily equal a relationship.

Much of comic book history is shrouded in mystery and complicated by misstated "facts". Unless someone has proof--a document or eyewitness account (even that is suspect...)--of a direct relationship between these various publishers, then anything else is speculation.

--Ken Q

[John C]

I think that Ken has it right, by the way.  The best policy is to keep things apart without the ability to directly link them.

From the PDF, the dates of Croydon Publishing Company extend into the time period of the Star Comics line. When Star Comics moved locations, Croydon Publishing moved to the same locations.

But as I said, I'd expect that.  There are several important questions down this line of reasoning.  For instance, and I'm not expecting you to have the answers and I'm not trying to put you on the spot:

* What suite(s) were they in?  Today, 545 Fifth contains many, many companies.  But you wouldn't connect any of them to the Starbuck's on the first floor (thank you, Google) just because they share an address.

* What else was in the building at the time?  As I mentioned, receptionists and remailers were big business well into the '90s in Manhattan.  One suite could easiily be the "office" of dozens of companies, with only a common person to answer phones and sign for packages ever in evidence.  As Ken pointed out, St. John was ALSO there, so this isn't just being obstructionist.

Couple that with the researcher identifying the owner of Star Comics, Jerome Kramer, being the owner of Croydon is compelling enough to link Croydon to Star IMO.

Link, sure, but combine?  That gets into purpose and all sorts of other things.  For example, is the '70s Atlas company compellingly "linked to" Marvel?  Goodman founded both, after all.  Had National not bought out All-American, would you still consider it part of DC?

The only thing linking Croydon and Rural Home is some of the content for each company came from Lloyd Jacquet. Which may have been the reason someone in the past lumped Croydon and Rural Home.

That seems odd.  Why only the two of those, and not any of he other many companies Jacquet's shop supplied?

[archiver_USA]

So you think its just coincidence that when Croydon moved Star happened to move at the same time, not just the one address, but both Star addresses? And that Jerome Kramer fingered as owner of Croydon by people outside of comics means nothing?

I guess L. B. Cole, editor/artist for Star being the cover artist to Kramer's Croydon mystery title Vicious Circle is also just another coincidence that means nothing...


So Star and Croydon exist at the same time. Kramer is owner of both. L.B. Cole does illustrations for both.

But without any evidence other than tradition, you feel more comfortable leaving Croydon the umbrella name to Rural Home??

I'm a little confused by your reaction.

[Yoc]

Guys,
As always this is the kind of discussion I need a flow chart to follow.

Anyways most of this is moot.  Until Serj can fix the login problem we mods/admin Cannot Change Anything as far as category names and descriptions or adding new categories or publishers.  We can move individual books from one folder to another but that's it.

Sorry,
-Yoc

[John C]

So you think its just coincidence that when Croydon moved Star happened to move at the same time, not just the one address, but both Star addresses?

I think it's a possible coincidence, yes.  If one of those reception firms and they moved, then all their customers moved.  That's why I'm asking if we knew that there was a real office at either address or if we had a suite number.

That's primarily because I don't think a company the size of Croydon could afford a Fifth Avenue address.  It's also because the building is a skyscraper with plenty of space.  It's not like you're talking about a residential address; this is a skyscraper with enough space that I guarantee half the people working there can't name another company in the building other than the Starbuck's.

And that Jerome Kramer fingered as owner of Croydon by people outside of comics means nothing?

It might, and it might not.  I've shown several comparable examples where such a connection wouldn't be valid.

You seem to think that my questions are arguing your conclusion.  I'm asking questions because I don't have enough information to FORM a conclusion.

I guess L. B. Cole, editor/artist for Star being the cover artist to Kramer's Croydon mystery title Vicious Circle is also just another coincidence that means nothing...

That's as meaningless as multiple companies using the Jacquet studio, no?  I mean, unless Cole had gone on record that he only ever worked for one company at a time or something.

But without any evidence other than tradition, you feel more comfortable leaving Croydon the umbrella name to Rural Home??
I'm a little confused by your reaction.

What I'm saying, and all I'm saying, is that people are looking for Rural and Croydon in the same place, so it's silly to "hide" them without more than circumstantial evidence (like a tax return, say, showing that Star and Croydon were the same entity).  And if I were going to support any change, it would be to separate all the companies out and not combine them without direct proof of a common business organization.

To be honest, as I think about it, I'm not even sure I'd want to merge the books even if there was a direct business connection (though Rural and Croydon would need splitting, of course).  What good does it do to lump them together when there's no similarity between the books?

[Yoc]

We do have a Small Publishers section and giving each their own folder could happen someday.  But not until Serj get's the site back to normal.  I think that could be the easiest way to solve the problem.  Assume nothing and keep them separate.
No?

-Yoc

[archiver_USA]

What I'm saying, and all I'm saying, is that people are looking for Rural and Croydon in the same place

With GCD having them split apart?? You really think people looking for Rural Home would expect them to be hidden in with the Croydon books? Seriously?

[kquattro]

So you think its just coincidence that when Croydon moved Star happened to move at the same time, not just the one address, but both Star addresses? And that Jerome Kramer fingered as owner of Croydon by people outside of comics means nothing?

Here are several quotes from L. B. Cole's interview that ran in the 1981 edition of Overstreet:

(Cole speaking) "Mr friend Jerry Kramer...was interested in entering the publishing field. Again, coincidence enters the scene. Jerry and I both had heard that Curtis Publishing was offering the Premium Group of comics for sale. We both arrived at the offices of the Premium Group at precisely the same time. 'Len," Jerry said, 'why should we bid against each other? Let's buy it together.' Curtis sold us the Premium Group...and that was the beginning of Star Publications."

"Under the Star banner, from 1951 until Kramer's death in 1956, the prolific Cole both edited the line and did cover art..."

"One of the numerous sources of non-comic Cole artwork was the Croyden (sic) paperback line also published by Star. Although the books began with copyright dates in 1945, they were not published until 1951 and were backdated to the time that the manuscripts had been acquired."

Hopefully this helps with making the connection between Croydon and Star. I take all of this, though, with a healthy grain of salt as many of Cole's statements within this interview are self-serving and laced with doubt.

As for Croydon's supposed connection to Rural Home...if it wasn't established until 1951, then it couldn't possibly be connected to Rural Home which was publishing circa 1945.

--Ken Q

[JVJ]

I think we're all confusing a 1951 paperback book company with a 1945 comic book company with a similar name. Overstreet specifically says "a  source of non-comic Cole artwork..." He did covers for Croyden paperbacks. The Croydon comic book work was NOT done in 1951 and back-dated. Croyden and Croydon are TWO different entities entirely.

This is, as I said a year ago, a "can of worms" and we'll probably never know the whole story.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[JVJ]

Then someone has to do the "due diligence" on the connections between Rewl, Rural Home and Orbit/Our. There are insidious connections here, too, just as there are with Croydon. Best of luck.
Peace, Jim (|:{>

[John C]

What I'm saying, and all I'm saying, is that people are looking for Rural and Croydon in the same place

With GCD having them split apart?? You really think people looking for Rural Home would expect them to be hidden in with the Croydon books? Seriously?

No, of course it was all a joke that I made up.  I won't waste your time further with my wacky ideas of people looking for things where they've often been found.  (Though for clarity, I'd look for Croydon with Rural, not the other way around.  And again, distinct categories for everything would be the best.)

I guess I should apologize.  I thought you were looking for open discussion on the topic, not merely awaiting accolades for your declaration...

Jim, I think you've hit the nail on the head.  This looks based on the idea that book publisher Croyden is merely a typo for comic publisher Croydon, even though the two companies published completely different things years apart.  The Croydon comics we've seen do not, to my knowledge, extend into the '50s.

It looks like things changed hands, and may have been regeared in the process, but that doesn't make the connections perpetual where they exist at all.

[archiver_USA]

I think "Croyden" is a mistake by Boatner which explains where the misspelling comes from that turns up in many locations on the web, including this site for a long time. It is clearly Croydon in the logos from the website images. And I'm not sure about Boatner's claim of backdating in the OPG. The publication addresses track chornologically. I think the "back-dating claim" by Boatner is due to some confusion with certain Croydon books that were reprinted during this period. They would have their original copyright even though they were republished in 1951.

From the chronology, Star Publications pre-dates the Star Comics line by a few years. What I think Cole was meaning to say with the purchase of the Premium titles was that Kramer was looking to get into publishing comics (again) and not publishing in general.

If you take the available information you get a very compelling chronology.

===1944-1947===
From bookscans.com:
CROYDON AWARD MYSTERY series issues 1945-1947
Croydon Publishing Co., 108 West 39th St., New York 18, NY
Logo: http://bookscans.com/Publishers/digest/images/croydonmys001(nn).jpg
Logo: http://bookscans.com/Publishers/digest/images/CroydonMys11.jpg

From Croydon comic indicias:
Croydon Publishing Co., 108 West 39th Street, New York 18, N.Y. for comics published 1944-1946.

===1949-1950===
From bookscans.com:
STORK ORIGINAL NOVEL series issues 1949-1950
Star Publications Inc., 286 Fifth Ave., NY 1, NY
Comments: Started as a companion to Croydon Books, publishing only new books.

===1950-1952===
From bookscans.com:
CROYDON LOVE NOVEL/CROYDON BOOK series issues 1949-1952
Croydon Publishing Co., 286 Fifth Ave., New York 1, NY
Comments: J. A. Kramer was the publisher.
Logo: http://bookscans.com/Publishers/sexydigests/images/Croydon014.jpg

From Star comics indicias:
Star Publications, Inc., 286 Fifth Avenue, New York 1, NY for comics published 1950-May 1952

===1952-1954===
From bookscans.com:
CROYDON BOOK series issues 1952-1954
Croydon Publishing Co., 545 Fifth Ave., New York 17, NY

From Star comics indicias:
Star Publications, Inc., 545 Fifth Ave., New York 17, NY for comics published Oct 1952-1954

I think this is a solid 99% case for Croydon+Kramer+Star being one and the same (sorry, no tax return to make this a 100% slam-dunk).

I think we're all confusing a 1951 paperback book company with a 1945 comic book company with a similar name. Overstreet specifically says "a  source of non-comic Cole artwork..." He did covers for Croyden paperbacks. The Croydon comic book work was NOT done in 1951 and back-dated. Croyden and Croydon are TWO different entities entirely.

This is, as I said a year ago, a "can of worms" and we'll probably never know the whole story.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[archiver_USA]

I am interested in an open discussion. But I'm amazed at people supporting a position to keep two things linked together where zero facts have been introduced to justify such a position versus a position that would separate them based on available research.

The opening premise of this thread still stands:
It might be time to rethink the name of the hodge-podge section we call Croydon on GAC.

That is the only thing I'm suggesting for GAC, even though the available research seems to support Croydon and Star being Kramer imprints.

I guess I should apologize.  I thought you were looking for open discussion on the topic, not merely awaiting accolades for your declaration...

[boox909]

archiver_USA,

You have me convinced regarding Croydon -- but list makers rarely like to remake their lists if you know what I mean. 

Imagine if Timely/Atlas/Marvel was public domain and hosted on the site --- how many new sections would that result in, when all that would be needed at best is "Timely/Atlas/Marvel".

B.

[kquattro]

I think we're all confusing a 1951 paperback book company with a 1945 comic book company with a similar name.

Jim is, as usual, correct! Sorry for adding to the confusion, folks.

This is, as I said a year ago, a "can of worms" and we'll probably never know the whole story.

Agreed. Short of tax records or other proof, we will never be able to establish a coherent link between these various companies. That said, I think too much emphasis is placed on finding an ownership connection between them. A clearer link is what they share content-wise. As Jim said many posts ago, not enough attention is given to shop-owned properties that carried over to various companies. The Duke of Darkness out of the Baily shop was what he used as an example. This feature appeared in three different comics published by three "different" publishers...apparently. A linking of ownership may never be proven with these publishers, but the likelihood that all three were produced by the Baily shop is almost definite.

The Golden Age comic book companies business practices were assuredly and purposely murky, especially the doings of these small publishers. Looking at their various comics in a different way may make the whole picture a bit clearer.

--Ken Q

[JVJ]

Okay, guys, I

[kquattro]

The contents of Capt. Wizard  (copyright 1946) are by artists who worked in 1945 for Lloyd Jacquet Studios.

As always, Jim, you're reasoning is indisputable. The only slight quibble I'd have would be with this above point. Isn't it more likely that the artists in CAPTAIN WIZARD were associated with the Baily shop rather than Jacquet? Giunta worked for both, apparently, but Alderman and Voight were with Baily from what I've discerned. However, I bow to your greater knowledge if you know better.

The linking of content is easier for me to do than the linking of ownerships. And I look to the work of the shops--Baily in particular--as the connecting point of these various publishers.

--Ken Q