[darkmark]

Getting back to some of the Golden Agers...the only recent revival I've liked has been the Nedor / Better heroes in TERRA OBSCURA.  I know they've been refurbished several times over in recent years, but this is the best-written and -illustrated one, and at least Moore and company did some research on the characters and attempted to connect them to their Golden Age past.  Also, both volumes and the TOM STRONG intro were fun reads.

[Roygbiv666]

Getting back to some of the Golden Agers...the only recent revival I've liked has been the Nedor / Better heroes in TERRA OBSCURA.  I know they've been refurbished several times over in recent years, but this is the best-written and -illustrated one, and at least Moore and company did some research on the characters and attempted to connect them to their Golden Age past.  Also, both volumes and the TOM STRONG intro were fun reads.

Yeah, I enjoyed them as well. The issues are usually available on the cheap. More info on the series can be found here: http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Terra_Obscura

It's too bad this didn't become a continuing series...

[John C]

Project Superpowers is one of the few series that, going into it, I knew wasn't going to be a short mini-series that might blossom into an ongoing series, but instead was planned to be a series of maxi-series.  It was clear that there was a game-plan from the get-go, so I was willing to be patient with it.

That's fair, but it's just not what I enjoy reading.  Or rather, I don't like reading what amounts to reference material hidden in a story.

I wish DC would just take the Fawcett, Charlton & Quality characters and put them in their own little universe, giving them their own imprint and treating it like a separate company, with its own EIC or whatever title DC uses for the guy in-charge.  It would allow characters like Captain Marvel, Blue Beetle etc etc so on and so forth, to stand on their own instead under the shadow of all of DC's "Big Guns".

I can see that, in some ways.  But on the other hand, that road leads to the lackluster Shazam! series of the '70s and probably books in the Watchmen vein.  There's still going to be the same urge to "modernize" the characters and make them "more realistic" or try to "bring them back to basics."

Plus, as I mentioned, there's an ever-increasing need for DC to fill in the time between the JSA's retirement and Superman's debut.  It was weird enough when Infinity, Inc. revealed the abundance of healthy midlife birthing on Earth-2, but now we're expected to believe that they were popping out kids into their sixties.  So all these extra characters could easily be used to pad out the timeline.

But mostly, I look at it from the perspective that it's a sin that a nobody like Red Tornado is a mainstay of the premier superhero team while Captain Marvel isn't.  Shuffling them off to imprints makes them seem just as deficient as they are now, for the most part.

On the other hand, I can also appreciate the desire for "smaller universes."  I recently even gave a little thought to what the Justice Society (and DCU at large) might look like, had the split with All-American left All-Star on the other side of the fence and been permanent.  It's a comforting exercise when everybody else is seeing how many characters they can cram into their histories.

[John C]

Actually Black Canary became a legacy character pre-Crisis when it was revealed that the modern-day BC was the daughter of the GA BC in JLA 219-220 (summer 1983).

Yes and no.  I mean, sure, there were now multiple Black Canaries, once that story ran, but they were the same woman in different bodies, and she had no idea this was the case.  It was really just a way to excuse her apparent continued youth, in the final analysis.  That's a far cry (no pun intended) from picking up her mother's mantle and having a bunch of generation gap stories revolve around the family relationship.

And of course BC was already established as the replacement for Wonder Woman (and the only female on the team) from 1969 to 1976.  Seems to me she was the logical replacement for Wonder Woman in the post-Crisis universe.

It's fair, I guess, but it just doesn't sit well with me.  Even during that JLA run, she wasn't really a major player.  She was more token than central, as I recall.

(Just for clarity, I'm not arguing this, since it's just a matter of personal preference and interpretation.  I'm only explaining my reasoning, here, and highlighting it with respect to the problem that DC's acquired heroes get immediately dumped off in Limbo.)

If you're only talking about characters that originated at a DC company, then yes, she's the only logical choice.  But my objection is that the DCU was wider, at that point, and included at least Bulletgirl, Mary Marvel, Nightshade, Phantom Lady, Miss America, USA, and Wildfire.  Of those, some have conflicts:  Miss America was being shoved into the JSA to replace the other Wonder Woman, Nightshade would be with the Suicide Squad, Wildfire still has the naming overlap with the Legionnaire, and Bulletgirl is probably too close to Hawkwoman (who would self-destruct shortly anyway).

USA is probably also too obscure and has too bland a costume, but that still leaves Mary Marvel and Phantom Lady, who are far bigger names than Black Canary.  And Miss America would also work, and help the JSA revision feel like anything more than a random choice to fill a slot.

[bchat]

I wish DC would just take the Fawcett, Charlton & Quality characters and put them in their own little universe, giving them their own imprint and treating it like a separate company, with its own EIC or whatever title DC uses for the guy in-charge.  It would allow characters like Captain Marvel, Blue Beetle etc etc so on and so forth, to stand on their own instead under the shadow of all of DC's "Big Guns".

I can see that, in some ways.  But on the other hand, that road leads to the lackluster Shazam! series of the '70s and probably books in the Watchmen vein.  There's still going to be the same urge to "modernize" the characters and make them "more realistic" or try to "bring them back to basics."

...  Shuffling them off to imprints makes them seem just as deficient as they are now, for the most part.

I think it all boils down to who would be put in-charge of the characters IF something like that happened.  I don't feel that comic characters need to be taken back to basics, but rather it's the comic books themselves that need to go back to basics in regards to telling a single story in a single issue, with subplots that carry over a larger arc, and with the occasional multi-issue story thrown into the mix.  For better or worse, comic fans have been trained in such a way that if a single story doesn't crawl along for six issues or so, then it must not be any good, and subplots are now stretched so thin over several years that the publisher needs to come out and tell readers what they should have noticed (OK, that last bit is a shot at Marvel & Secret Invasion, so maybe it's not the norm).  

I think a line of books focusing on Captain Marvel, Phantom Lady, Plastic Man, Blue Beetle and all those related characters, could be successful "as is", without "modernizing" the characters IF you had enough creators involved who cared about the characters, had enteraining stories to tell and could add some decent new villains to the mix, because a comic book hero is only as good as the villains he faces.  Without a decent group of evil-doers to rotate through, any superhero book is going to run out of steam eventually.  Jerry Ordway's run with Captain Marvel (Power of Shazam) was pretty good until he ran through all the old Fawcett villains, and then the series got boring for me because it seemed like he didn't know what to do and was just going through the motions.  The way I see it, DC doesn't care about these characters because they're too focused on making sure Superman, Batman and the rest of the JLA are the "Top Dogs" in terms of popularity & sales.   So, when a series like Power of Shazam or Blue Beetle starts losing readers, the company just throws its hands up in the air and calls it a day, instead of giving it some thought and trying to do something to give the books a boost.  Seperating the characters out into their own imprint, handing the reigns over to someone who actually cares about the characters and telling them "have fun with it & we'll leave you alone" may be the only way DC can get any decent amount of life out them.  Otherwise, they'll just linger around as guest-stars & team players, getting a short-lived series every now and then but never really amounting to much of anything.

Oh, and Merry Christmas, everyone!

[John C]

Super-heroes in real life declined markedly in popularity after WWII (I mean, who was being published - Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman/and ....),

All their backup strips, for one (including Robotman, Vigilante, and others).  Plus outside of DC, Blue Beetle, Phantom Lady, Plastic Man, the Blackhawks, Black Cat, the Marvel Family, Crimebuster, and quite a few others.  Those are just the characters who outlived the JSA in some form or other.  Even the Justice Society itself held out until '51, and its members had strips as late as '48, which is pretty well past the end of the war.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that the market didn't decline or change, but there weren't more than a couple of years where fictional dry cleaners weren't regularly scrubbing deadly acids and alien goop out of tights, so to speak, and it was never anything like "just Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman," except in terms of characters still regularly published today, and there isn't any "cutoff point" to be had.

[boox909]

Super-heroes in real life declined markedly in popularity after WWII (I mean, who was being published - Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman/and ....),

All their backup strips, for one (including Robotman, Vigilante, and others).  Plus outside of DC, Blue Beetle, Phantom Lady, Plastic Man, the Blackhawks, Black Cat, the Marvel Family, Crimebuster, and quite a few others.  Those are just the characters who outlived the JSA in some form or other.  Even the Justice Society itself held out until '51, and its members had strips as late as '48, which is pretty well past the end of the war.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that the market didn't decline or change, but there weren't more than a couple of years where fictional dry cleaners weren't regularly scrubbing deadly acids and alien goop out of tights, so to speak, and it was never anything like "just Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman," except in terms of characters still regularly published today, and there isn't any "cutoff point" to be had.

As an "Earth-2" nerd, I waver between considering the Golden Age Era over with either Johnny Quick's last appearance in Adventure Comics #207 Dec. 1954 (Thanks Toonopedia!) or The Shining Knight's in July of 1951.  I tend to lean toward JQ's, but sometime's SK's makes sense...the issue is muddied only because there never were Earth-1 versions of either (to the best of my memory).

Ah well...without geekery, comics wouldn't be fun.   

B.

[John C]

I don't feel that comic characters need to be taken back to basics, but rather it's the comic books themselves that need to go back to basics in regards to telling a single story in a single issue, with subplots that carry over a larger arc, and with the occasional multi-issue story thrown into the mix.

I could back that.  Especially since I don't think "decompression" works as a technique.  It seems to revolve around making comics that look like movies, and the two mediums are too different to transfer.  For example, watching a scene with nothing happening builds suspense or tension in a movie, because the artist controls the sense of time.  In a comic with nothing happening, you just move from panel to panel wondering if anything's going to happen.  That's a dismal failure, in my eyes.

I think a line of books focusing on Captain Marvel, Phantom Lady, Plastic Man, Blue Beetle and all those related characters, could be successful "as is", without "modernizing" the characters IF you had enough creators involved who cared about the characters, had enteraining stories to tell

I think this is where we part company.  I don't have the confidence in today's DC (or writers and editors in general, actually) to just jump in and tell stories.  Everybody wants to rewrite origins (even though that's supposed to be the boring part), "leave their mark on the characters," or "redefine the genre," it seems, and nobody just wants to rap out good stories.  Everybody also seems mired in a set-piece mentality, where they don't necessarily know where the story's going to go, but it's just gotta have...

and could add some decent new villains to the mix, because a comic book hero is only as good as the villains he faces.  Without a decent group of evil-doers to rotate through, any superhero book is going to run out of steam eventually.  Jerry Ordway's run with Captain Marvel (Power of Shazam) was pretty good until he ran through all the old Fawcett villains, and then the series got boring for me because it seemed like he didn't know what to do and was just going through the motions.

I don't remember the series clearly, since it came right on the heels of the OTHER reboot and overlapped the Justice League appearances, but yeah, that sounds about right.  Ordway managed to establish an interesting status quo, but didn't really do anything with it...though I seem to recall reading an interview where he blamed that on hectic times in his life, rather than a lack of inspiration, in fairness to him.

The way I see it, DC doesn't care about these characters because they're too focused on making sure Superman, Batman and the rest of the JLA are the "Top Dogs" in terms of popularity & sales.

I'd go further, actually.  They care about Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and are willing to accept the other (founding) JLAers if a big-name writer is particularly passionate about the project.

Seperating the characters out into their own imprint, handing the reigns over to someone who actually cares about the characters and telling them "have fun with it & we'll leave you alone" may be the only way DC can get any decent amount of life out them.  Otherwise, they'll just linger around as guest-stars & team players, getting a short-lived series every now and then but never really amounting to much of anything.

Well, the way I see it, it can also just happen editorially.  For example, I do think Grant Morrison had the right idea by including Plastic Man in his JLA run, but the problem was in not reading any Jack Cole stories and instead using the bland "class clown" personality for the character.

Likewise, I do think (despite its critical reception today) that Giffen's JLI did a lot to cement Captain Marvel, Blue Beetle, and Captain Atom into the Post-Crisis world by making them peers with Batman and a Green Lantern.  Sure, they were (as I think I mentioned) explicitly characters that DC didn't care about, but they were in a high profile position, and what esteem they have today can largely be traced to that run, comedy or no.

I'd go a step further and try to do the same thing in backstory.  I mean, I think there's a serious flaw in trying to preserve history EXCEPT for all the parts they want to change.  So as long as Wonder Woman needs replacing (and all the next-generation JSAers need ironing out), why not also overwrite Hawkman with Bulletman?  Or Dr. Mid-Nite with Phantom Lady?  Sure, there's a part of it that would bug me, too (especially Hawkman), but it would show the "imports" as being relatively important at the expense of characters that don't have a huge following to begin with.

Likewise, if Superman can't be in the JLA, then let Captain Marvel join, and just be done with it.  Superman's status isn't in any danger, because he was still the first choice, but just the same, it doesn't leave the Marvels (or whoever replaces other characters) out in the cold.

Oh, and Merry Christmas, everyone!

Same from here.  And if you celebrate(d) anything else...well, tough.  I'm still only wishin' ya a Merry Christmas, but feel free to interpret it in a more general sense.

[OtherEric]

As an "Earth-2" nerd, I waver between considering the Golden Age Era over with either Johnny Quick's last appearance in Adventure Comics #207 Dec. 1954 (Thanks Toonopedia!) or The Shining Knight's in July of 1951.  I tend to lean toward JQ's, but sometime's SK's makes sense...the issue is muddied only because there never were Earth-1 versions of either (to the best of my memory).

Here's one for you (or anybody else) as an Earth-2 nerd, then:  What was the last appearance of the Earth-2 Superman as "the" Superman, rather than being specifically tagged as being from an alternate Earth?  Bonus points for explaining why that story has to be the Earth-2 Superman rather than Earth-1.

[boox909]

As an "Earth-2" nerd, I waver between considering the Golden Age Era over with either Johnny Quick's last appearance in Adventure Comics #207 Dec. 1954 (Thanks Toonopedia!) or The Shining Knight's in July of 1951.  I tend to lean toward JQ's, but sometime's SK's makes sense...the issue is muddied only because there never were Earth-1 versions of either (to the best of my memory).

Here's one for you (or anybody else) as an Earth-2 nerd, then:  What was the last appearance of the Earth-2 Superman as "the" Superman, rather than being specifically tagged as being from an alternate Earth?  Bonus points for explaining why that story has to be the Earth-2 Superman rather than Earth-1.

I used too know the answer...if I wasn't getting ready to hit the Xmas road I would go back and look it up.

B. 

[John C]

Traditionally, I think the answer is one of the Superman issues in the early 200s, wherein kryptonite doesn't work the way that kryptonite generally works later.  Bridwell "broke the story," as I recall, and while I've always enjoyed his work...this always rang hollow to me, because it requires ignoring all of the "Earth-1" elements to Superman that had already been around for a while.

At the end of the day, Earth-2's Superman wasn't so much the Golden Age Superman as just...anything that was published prior to his JLA appearance that struck writers as a contrast to existing continuity.

I've seen other writers suggest that everything from bald Luthor and the Daily Planet to...whatever point is clearly Earth-1 is actually on a kind of fluid "Earth-E."  If everything has to have happened as-written on a particular Earth, I guess that's as precise as anything's going to be, right?

Age-wise, I'm starting to think that you really can't assign a fixed start- or end-point, because there are always strong precursors and johnny-come-latelies, sometimes decades apart from where you'd expect them.  It also has the problem that the dates all have to line up perfectly:  If the Golden Age ends in the middle of 1951, does that mean the Silver Age begins there?  If not, what about the comics published during the interregnum?

But I'm also of the opinion that an "Age" needs a definition beyond points on a timeline.  That is, what does being "a Golden Age comic" SAY about the comic in general?  Because while there's nothing wrong with just going around hanging labels on things for the sake of pointing at them, where do you go from there?  What can you do with the information, other than inflate prices in the guides?  So to me, everything from Green Lantern losing his strip to his dog and the big book burnings in 1948 on through dumping the Shining Knight and Johnny Quick off are just parts of the extended decline.

The Silver Age (in my eyes) picks up around the same time, with the Marvel hero revival, the ascension of Krypton in Superman's stories, the revival of Blue Beetle, Phantom Lady, and others, and the imposition of the Comics Code.  And obviously, the new Flash and Green Lantern are also part of that movement, stretching it out even further.  Likewise, Captain Comet and the Martian Manhunter fit the bill, even though they're not part of a "turning point."

Which is all to say that it doesn't feel like there's a specific year, comic, or character to point to that cuts neatly between Ages, at this point, unless its just for the sake of having them.  But that's just me.

[Yoc]

All this talk of modern comics not being like the 'good old days.'
I've seen the Next Issue Project and Project Superpowers as well as small press Big Bang Comics.

Anyone heard of Silver Comics?  Is Kirby's estate getting a cut of this?  (joke)
http://tinyurl.com/yd3sy3p

[OtherEric]

The traditional answer, according to Bridwell, was Superman 128.  The story only works if Superman first appeared as an adult; and Superboy rules that out for Earth-1.

[boox909]

All this talk of modern comics not being like the 'good old days.'
I've seen the Next Issue Project and Project Superpowers as well as small press Big Bang Comics.

Anyone heard of Silver Comics?  Is Kirby's estate getting a cut of this?  (joke)
http://tinyurl.com/yd3sy3p

I believe that I have the first two or three issues floating around somewhere. Not bad for the effort. No idea if the Kirby Estate is involved though.

B.

[Brainster]

The traditional answer, according to Bridwell, was Superman 128.  The story only works if Superman first appeared as an adult; and Superboy rules that out for Earth-1.

I assume this is the Futuremen story?  It's strongly implied (although not actually stated) that Superman didn't reveal himself until adulthood.  Of course, nowadays the wheel has turned full circle; once again Superman never had super powers until older.

[OtherEric]

Yes, it's the Futuremen story.  I would say it goes somewhat beyond "implies", but yes it doesn't outright state it.  The logic of the story, even by silver age standards, collapses if Superman appeared before he was an adult.

[darkmark]

Logic was NEVER a strong point in Weisinger stories. ;-)  If you want to consider it an Earth-2 or Earth-B story, that's okay by me.  But that doesn't mean everything up to then was Earth-2.

[OtherEric]

Hey, I'm just reporting Bridwell's assessment.  And I never said everything up to that point was Earth-2; it's clearly not.  For a long time they co-existed or it just didn't matter.  I'm just saying that this was the last story that was clearly not Earth-1, at least according to Bridwell.  And I can track his logic on the matter clearly.

[John C]

Of course, nowadays the wheel has turned full circle; once again Superman never had super powers until older.

Sometimes.  I believe the current story has been inspired by the "Smallville" series, and Clark grew up with powers and used them regularly, but didn't go public (except maybe with the Legion of Superheroes, though I'm not sure about that) until adulthood.

Otherwise, the first few paragraphs have a decent summary of where the Earth-1 breakpoints might be.  But as noted there, Earth-2 isn't really something you can point to (prior to its explicit introduction with "Flash of Two Worlds," I mean) so much as something that needs to be extracted and synthesized, and that's a very inexact science.

http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline2.html