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Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice

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topic icon Author Topic: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice  (Read 1887 times)

The Australian Panther

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Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« on: October 19, 2021, 11:26:56 AM »

For my next trick, two books that have nothing in common, except that are on the site among my ComicMarks, a feature that is now sadly in Limbo. So I can no longer add to the comicmarks. 

i like a good combination of visual and verbal humor, which I found both these to be.

Comment on both,or only one or pick one story.         

Bullwinkle Mother Moose Nursery Pomes 207
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=37833&comicpage=&b=m

World's Greatest Stories 1 - Alice in Wonderland
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=61729&comicpage=&b=m

Enjoy!
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2021, 01:16:22 AM »

Hmmm... my calendar must be a few days fast.  ;)

The Bullwinkle Mother Moose Nursery Pomes

Intro - Not the greatest jokes, but okay.

Sing A Song Of Sixpence - Okay.

The Owl And The Pussycat - Amusing.

Old Mother Hubbard - A bit strange.

The House That Jack Built - Punny.

Little Miss Muffet - Cute. I liked the reference to people having coverless copies.

There Was A Crooked Man - Cute.  :)

Mother Moose Medley - Cute, although I imagine the inspiration was the writer coming up with a handful of gags for poems that weren't enough by themselves for a story so he smooshed them all together.  ;)

Little Bo-Peep - Cute.

Old Mother Moose - Okay.

Not laugh out loud funny, but a generally amusing read.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2021, 01:40:19 AM »

Last reading group selection was posted on Oct 4, which is a fortnight ago. Posts are usually Monday. I am in OZ about a day earlier than most of you so I was actually a little late!

Cheers!
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2021, 04:30:26 AM »

Alice Through The Looking Glass - Trippy. I wonder what drugs work best reading this story?  ;) Not so much a story as a series of random events, not sure how true it is to the original story though.

A Real Surprise Birthday Party With Margaret O'Brien - Yikes! That's a scary drawing of Margaret in the first panel. Not sure if I've heard of the Candy Kitchen before. I wonder if Margaret O'Brien actually got any money for this or if it all went to her handlers?
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crashryan

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2021, 04:01:27 AM »

Interesting pair of books.

World's Greatest Stories #1: This is a valiant attempt at adapting Lewis Carroll's book Through the Looking Glass. That was quite a challenge. For one thing the book was loaded with word play, long poems, and other stuff that either wouldn't fit or wouldn't work in a comic. For another the entire story was an elaborate allegory of a game of chess, often at a rather esoteric level.

I can't pretend that I knew this when I first read the book as a schoolboy. I just liked the puns, the word games, and nonsense like "The Walrus and the Carpenter." As an adult I read an essay explaining the whole thing. The dividing of the world into squares, the often arbitrary behavior of the bizarre characters, Alice (the pawn) reaching the last square and suddenly becoming a Queen--all this was based upon the moves and "powers" of chess pieces. Before writing this I refreshed my memory reading the Wikipedia entry on Through the Looking Glass. It's a good overview of the book's many layers of meaning.

Most of this, of course, is lost in the comic. What's left is, as SuperScrounge said, a trippy, rather disjointed fantasy. But I salute the scriptwriter. He made a noble stab at an impossible task.

The art is good enough if the story's new to you, but John Tenniel's illustrations have been burned into my brain for so many years that to me these drawings seem too "modern." My only real complaint is that the "pie slices" in Alice's eyes don't always work together. Sometimes she seems wall-eyed or cross-eyed because one eye's slice points in one direction and the other eye's slice points in another.

Bullwinkle Mother Moose Nursery Pomes: I was a huge Rocky and Bullwinkle fan. Reading this comic I could hear all the wonderful character voices in my head. The comic as a whole is hit-and-miss. Since all the "stories" are just brief vignettes the only way to judge them is by whether the jokes are funny. Some are, some aren't. Occasionally the writer captures the Rocky & Bullwinkle spirit. Many of the pop culture references are to the 1940s. I'm not sure 1962 kids would have recognized them.

The artist does a good job capturing the show's style.

There are enough smiles to make both book worth reading.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2021, 06:47:38 PM »

I take it that Panther chose these 2 books as a pair, because they were both written with tongue in cheek, and both intended as updated versions of earlier works, to be funny and interesting to current eyes and way of thinking of the current readers.
I was a teenager in 1960, when both Rocky and His Friends TV show and comic books started in Canada.  I was very close to the end of my comic book purchasing, occupied by playing organised hockey and high school.  But, I DID like the TV show, which was liked by most of my friends.  It was something of a "cult" item among teens, being a little high-brow on the higher of its two levels.  Unfortunately, for me, the Rocky and Bullwinkle comic books fell far short of that high, tongue-in-cheek standard.  I just bought the earliest few, and was sorely disappointed.  I DO have digital copies of ALL the Dell and Gold Key Jay Ward/Bill Scott comics now. 

As far as Bullwinkle Mother Goose Nursery Pomes goes, to me, it is the still graphic representation of The Bullwinkle's Corner segment of The Rocky and his Friends and Bullwinkle TV shows, which involved Bullwinkle reciting classic American versions of traditional English Nursery Rhymes, and being interrupted by The TV show's announcer, with clever quips or baiting him, and Rocky trying to tell him when he made mistakes in the wording.  The jokes were not funny, in and of themselves, but the humour came out in Rocky's frustration, some clever digs by the announcer, and clever comebacks by the supposedly ignorant Bullwinkle.  The comic book, not being able to express those emotions as easily and convincingly as tone of voice, fell flat, as rather dull, and boring.  As Crash stated above, having listened, again, to the sounds of the characters in the TV show, from memory, a reader, who has experienced the TV show, can bring the characters to life, 'hear the repartee, and experience the comedy in the timing and emotional reactions.

Sing A Song Of Sixpence
The jokes in this acted out poem are abominable.  Despite the tone being tongue-in-cheek, they fall flat.

The Owl And The Pussycat
Same level of boring fare as the first poem.

Old Mother Hubbard
Just as bad as the first 2 poems, and the ending gag was weak, too.

The House That Jack Built
The poem's story was weak, and the jokes were flat, but the ending joke was clever, and brings to mind the formulaic endings of all The Fractured Fairy Tales episodes from The Rocky and Bulwinkle shows.

Little Miss Muffet
Similar to the TV episode of Bullwinkle's Corner.  I tried to hear the TV voices to recreate it.

There Was A Crooked Man
TERRIBLE!  JUST  TERRIBLE!

Mother Moose Medley
Also terrible.

I'm very disappointed in this book.  It's all tongue-in-cheek, all expected, but not clever, and to my taste, not funny.  And the artwork isn't very good, and so, can't even approach saving it.

World's Greatest Stories 1 - Alice In Wonderland/Through The Looking Glass
Overall, this version of through The Looking Glass was disappointing.  As several other posters mentioned, the story seemed disjointed, because the backgrounds changed suddenly, with no warning or inkling of why they were doing so.  I also agree very strongly with Crash that the limit of 30 comic book pages is way too small a number of pages and panels to show enough of each chessboard space and poem to do it the justice it deserves, or even to give it the flavour the reader gets when reading the book and conjuring the images of it in his or her mind, given unlimited time to dwell on it.  The chaotic/slapstick drawing style, chosen by the artist to provide a surrealistic feel and mood, and the changing of the backgrounds and/or movement from background in one panel to empty space in the next, the transitions from one chessboard space to the next became indistinguishable from random changes in background scenery.  All of which made it difficult to follow the story flow.  Had I drawn this story, I'd have described visually, in the background art of one transition panel between each chessboard square, the magical changing from one universe with its unique physical set of rules to the next, using some type of motion lines, providing a demarcation, and movement to a different existence. And to do each poem justice (e.g. get enough room to provide the reader with, at least, a feel for the atmosphere of each poem featured), I would want AT THE VERY LEAST, the 68-page full book size, of standard comic books published in the early 1940s.  Ideally, the 100 to 132 page size given to Giant comic books during The War Years (1939-1945) would have been better, providing perhaps 3 to 5 pages per chessboard space.

To me, the reading of Disney's version of Alice in Wonderland, and United Features' Single Series version were more enjoyable experiences, simply because the artwork was much, much better drawn, and showed much more detail, and was drawn in an old fashioned style, which much more fit the style and mood of Carrol's original version.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 04:41:41 AM by Robb_K »
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gregjh

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2021, 02:04:14 PM »

I was looking forward to reading the Alice story, but to be honest I was disappointed. The problem for me wasn't the art per-se, but that it was drawn in a style of "slapstick" (I have no idea if that is a valid term to use for comic art) that doesn't suit Alice stories in my view.  It doesn't work because characters in the story always had very distinct expressions and silhouettes that defined their behaviour and their role in the dream.

Another thing I disliked - and it took me a while to realise it - was that I felt the story lacked flow due to many panels completely transforming the background or landscape from the previous one. I guess the writers and artists wanted to capture Alice's chaotic journey but in doing so they made the story hard to follow due to a  lack of transitions. I'd be interested to hear from anyone more knowledgeable about drawing and comics on this: am I imagining this or is it a valid complaint? Don?t be too polite to tell me if I'm wrong.

I read some of the Bullwinkle comic. I quite admired the wit of the story and I got the impression that a great deal of attention and thought went into it. I also noticed the scan was of very high quality, pages were very clear.

Reading back over my comments here, I feel that i am once again limited in expressing my criticisms due to a lack of knowledge of comic production and its associated lexicon. Hopefully I wasn't totally incoherent.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2021, 02:37:10 AM »

Gregjh,

Quote
Reading back over my comments here, I feel that i am once again limited in expressing my criticisms due to a lack of knowledge of comic production and its associated lexicon. Hopefully I wasn't totally incoherent. 

to Quote Shakespeare, 'me thinkest thou protesteth too much.'
You express yourself very clearly and well. And in any  case, like anything else,  you will get better with practice. Please don't hold yourself back.

cheers!   


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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2021, 05:24:04 AM »


Reading back over my comments here, I feel that i am once again limited in expressing my criticisms due to a lack of knowledge of comic production and its associated lexicon. Hopefully I wasn't totally incoherent.


I think you've added quite a bit to this discussion making two excellent, salient and very understandable points, about the problems of continuity and story flow, and about the problems with the artist using a slapstick style in his drawings, leading to less emotion shown by the main characters, thus contributing as much value to this discussion as any of the other posters.  The object of this thread is to see what readers think about the stories and gags in these books, and how it makes them feel, or how it affects their lives.  Yes, some comments by experts on artists, writers and there histories and styles, and how their artwork or writing made the stories better or worse than standard is always a nice bonus.  But, even if we only got the views of fan readers, these discussions would still be very worthwhile and mainly why were here.  As a comic book writer and artist, I ALWAYS want to know what readers like and dislike, and why.  That's invaluable.  After my stories are fully sketched out, I have them test read by both adult and child extended family members and friends and their young children or grandchildren.  And I have friends of mine who are school teachers test them out on their class' students, all before I submit a story to my editors.

You shouldn't worry about expecting to contribute more, or in a better fashion of some kind.  You're contributing a lot, and were all glad to have you, and anyone else who will want to contribute.  And these discussions are a good way for you (and ALL of us) to learn more about what makes comic book stories and gags work and not work.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2021, 02:19:45 AM »

Bullwinkle Mother Moose Nursery Pomes 207

Perspective, These were after school fare when I was still going to school - high school - so I was old enough to appreciate the cultural references. And learned much from the ones I didn't immediately get. 
The art work was never the point in US TV cartoons in this period, they were cheaply produced to be under budget, so the stories and the verbal's had to be why you would watch the show. But the visual gags are excellently scripted. 
For me Rocky and Bullwinkle is up there with Monty Python and the Goon Show - and the Marx brothers - which were highly popular in student circles in the 70's. Good, clean, intelligent comedy.
I wouldn't have bought this off the stands. Why?
Because while the Dell and Gold Key adaptions of dramatic movies and TV shows were good quality, the adaptions of sitcoms and cartoons were usually dreadful.
So the gags in this are good, but without delivery and visual motion - and they came thick and fast in the TV show, they fall flat. This kind of comedy needs pacing or it doesn't work. It's not just what Groucho says that's funny, its his moves [ he was a vaudeville and stage actor] and who and where and why he says it.And his leering after he says it. 
On a flat page all that is missing.  So good try, but no cigar.
Hmm! I think I see why comic book versions of TV cartoon shows largely don't work.
For those who have never experienced Rocky and Bullwinkle, and you are missing something.
Here is a complete episode. Complete with Fractured Fairytales and Professor Peabody and his boy.
Rocky and Bullwinkle | Greenpernt Oogle | TV Series Full Episode |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXWZO3h2xss&list=PLLhOnau-tupQXnRtvLJhUH2pcVIsskHHo     
Here are some compilations. 
The Counterfit Box Top Caper ~ Starring Rocky And Bullwinkle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX-EtNF2910&list=PLFYVh3ChFCIdBgAOwQm0xHzGGTfTF0bN8&index=2

There have been Real actor films of both Rocky and Bullwinkle and Professor Peabody. Both failures of course since they never get it and never get it right. 

Cheers!
             
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2021, 02:50:45 AM »

World's Greatest Stories 1 - Alice in Wonderland
Alice through the looking glass. 
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=61729&comicpage=&b=m

I note there are only two issues of this title. The other is Pinoccio

First, as a comic - reading it as a comic, it is excellent. Words and Illustrations are excellently judged, great action and movement, no dull moments.
On our download there are no credits. I would have liked to know whose work this is.

Adapting Alice into another format is difficult and this is an excellent attempt.
I enjoyed it more reading it again this time than I had earlier.

Makes me want to go back and have a look at the original.

Also on ComicBook Plus
2 issues of an Alice title by Dave Berg - later of MAD magazine fame.
Alice 02
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=4610

The Adventures Of Alice 01 (1 of 3)
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=9982
Serge S. Sabarsky (adaptation) | Pencils: George O. Muhlfield

Alice's Adventures in Funnyland
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=62505

Alice in Blunderland
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=78725

And this one
Funny Book 1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=64362
Alice in Wonderland" drawn by Chad Grothkopf.

It occurs to me that this kind of nonsense works only when the characters/participants do and say ridiculous things with total seriousness.
Also, Alice and Bullwinkle are written by adults and  on one level they speak to adults. But they are considered works for children although many adults value them.
So do children have a stronger inbuilt tolerance for  seeing the funny side of things than adults do? Are  adults inculcated not to laugh at what is obviously ridiculous?
It took a child to see that 'the king is wearing no clothes' in Hans Anderson's perceptive story.   

Cheers! And happy reading.   
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 03:13:49 AM by The Australian Panther »
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2021, 04:54:36 AM »


Also, Alice and Bullwinkle are written by adults and on one level they speak to adults. But they are considered works for children although many adults value them.


Reminds me of two quotes.
1. In an interview in Comics Scene magazine the interviewer asked Carl Barks what he thought about colleges using his duck books in courses and he said that he was told to write stories for 12-year olds. Apparently he had a higher notion of what a 12-year old could accept than other authors.

2. One of the writers of Rocky & Bullwinkle screamed about having to write dialogue for a cartoon moose, to which the voice actor for Bullwinkle responded (in character), "What about me? I am a cartoon moose!"
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #256 Bullwinkle and Moose and Alice
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2021, 05:40:28 PM »



Also, Alice and Bullwinkle are written by adults and on one level they speak to adults. But they are considered works for children although many adults value them.


Reminds me of two quotes.
1. In an interview in Comics Scene magazine the interviewer asked Carl Barks what he thought about colleges using his duck books in courses and he said that he was told to write stories for 12-year olds. Apparently he had a higher notion of what a 12-year old could accept than other authors.

2. One of the writers of Rocky & Bullwinkle screamed about having to write dialogue for a cartoon moose, to which the voice actor for Bullwinkle responded (in character), "What about me? I am a cartoon moose!"

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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