Print

[crashryan]

Thanks, crash, for giving some vindication to my darker fears, it comforts me to know somebody else can see it. I wish I had a better explanation for the red dogs

I scoured the net and even my old copy of the Shorter OED without finding a meaning for "dogs" that fits the lyrics. Most definitions were slang terms that fell into three categories: feet, an unattractive person (usually female), or someone who goes back on his/her close friends.

There are also "the dogs of war," which were real dogs, and the mechanical device dog, "any of various usually simple mechanical devices for holding, gripping, or fastening that consist of a spike, bar, or hook." Could "red dogs on her illegal legs" refer metaphorically to garter clips? This seems like reaching, but EC liked his word play.

[The Australian Panther]

Crash Said,

Costello was going for atmosphere above narrative. He often indulged in what a critic called "image mongering," dropping in a vivid image or a clever play on words 

Exactly! Almost all songwriters do this. Dylan being the best-known current example.
But the words, plus the melody are designed to send a message to both your head and your toes.

I scoured the net and even my old copy of the Shorter OED without finding a meaning for "dogs" that fits the lyrics

Crash, you are trying too hard to find something obscure. That way madness lies. Paul McCarthy is dead! And guys! Please don't start!
One thing McManus was, was an observer. And he was using his eyes and soaking in what he saw in '77. And believe me, there was a lot to see.

In order,
'Nice girls, not one with a defect' - when he was on stage - he would see girls in the audience dressed up to the nines.   
'Not one with a defect' in the context of the whole lyric, this is sarcasm.
'Cellophane, shrink-wrapped '
Dresses that were tight and plastic - Take a look at Fay from the Rezillos for example.
'So correct' more sarcasm. McManus was observant and critical of fashion in more than one song.
'Red Dogs under illegal legs' - obviously red shoes. Poetic license. Under legs are feet, which have shoes on them. Red Shoes were also very fashionable at the time.
https://thefaithfuldog.com/why-are-your-feet-called-dogs/
Why are your feet called dogs?
August 21, 2022 by Hubert Drew

How did the word ‘dogs’ come to mean ‘feet’? In 1913, a journalist for the New York Evening, by the name of “T.A. Dorgan”, was well known for rhyming slang, published the word ‘dogs’ as a citation for his feet. From that point forward the word ‘dogs’, has been used as slang for feet.     

'illegal' shouldn't be taken to mean anything other than that the girl looked very young.
Everything here is visual description.
Then in order,
'She looks so good that he gets down and begs' Visual image again.
BUT!
'She's watching the detectives!'
Can't see how that can be anything but literal. That sets the stage for the narrative.   
So now we have the picture of the frustrated guy and the rest of the lyric has a double meaning.
Sarcasm all the way!
And yes, 'Shoot! Shoot! Shoot!' has an obvious double meaning! but it's funny. Emphasizes his frustration.
In fact it has a triple meaning!

Now baby's here to stay, love is here for a visit They call it instant justice when it's past the legal limit
The detectives come to check if you belong to the parents - Who are ready to hear the worst about their daughter's disappearance.
It only took my little fingers to blow you away

 
It's hard not to argue that that doesn't indicate that 'she' is underage and again he is using lyrics that apply to the  Detective show, with double meanings, to imply something else. 
'It only took my little fingers to blow you away' That is deliberately obscure, could be interpreted many ways and the meaning is in the mind of the beholder Mistake to look for a definitive meaning. It's a simile.
I'm not going to outline my interpretation in this space.
And then, 'Watching the defectives!' and we are out!         

I'm uncomfortable with this kind of analysis which can be turned against a person.
We live in an age where someone writes a tweet or message, millions read it and make assumptions and a person is judged and their life destroyed. Only takes one person with an Axe to Grind.
Get a 'good' lawyer and there is money to be made.     

Anyway,
My review of the books coming up on the weekend.
Cheers! 
     

[Robb_K]

Super Detective Library 159 - Buck Ryan and The Phantom Prowler
This was a very entertaining read.  Jack Monk's artwork is excellent.  The story's plot is somewhat more complicated, but better thought out than most Dick Tracy stories.  I got a big surprise, finding out that Lord Ledbury's butler teamed up with his opponent, the professional boxer's manager, and a shady taxi cab driver (who did spying for shady boxing promotors), as well as a Chinese restaurant owner, who happened to be providing catering for the victim "loser" of the fixed boxing match.  It's a bit far-fetched, in that it is difficult to believe that enough betting money would change hands from this "exhibition event" that didn't seem to be widely advertised, for it to warrant breaking the law to 'fix" it, and that the perpetrators would risk using firearms in their threats, and the resulting prison sentence, if caught.  Still, it held its suspense almost to the end, with the identities of the villains not given away early.

I'm still wondering about the explanation about the projected filmed figure's head dissolving into the body.  I'm not surprised that Green didn't go into detail on exactly how that worked.  I'm surprised that we didn't get a view of the 'enforcer" who was going to disfigure Lumbers' fiancée, IF he didn't "cooperate".  The single thug or trio of "razor gang" members could have been viewed from afar as shadowy characters, with faces not seen enough for them to be identified, but would have added more suspense and fear in Lumber and his woman.

It must have been a risky business for the boxing manager and his lackey, Green, to approach Lord Ledbury's butler to help set up the "fix", at the risk of being caught and lose his reputation in The Fight Business, just for the chance to become manager of a currently amateur boxer. 

Still, it all makes for an entertaining comic book story.

[Quirky Quokka]

Oh dear, QQ,  this is an unfortunate time for you to mention P, P & M...

https://www.iheartradio.ca/news/peter-yarrow-of-peter-paul-and-mary-accused-of-child-sexual-assault-1.14650915

I still don't believe the drug- associated stories about Puff, though!
All the best
K1ngcat

Oh no. I had never heard of this. I thought they were the clean-cut 'good' folkies. I did a quick search to see if I could find the outcome of the case, but could only find the original stories.

[K1ngcat]

Oh dear, QQ,  this is an unfortunate time for you to mention P, P & M...

https://www.iheartradio.ca/news/peter-yarrow-of-peter-paul-and-mary-accused-of-child-sexual-assault-1.14650915

I still don't believe the drug- associated stories about Puff, though!
All the best
K1ngcat

Oh no. I had never heard of this. I thought they were the clean-cut 'good' folkies. I did a quick search to see if I could find the outcome of the case, but could only find the original stories.

Well on the upside  it seems he did get a presidential pardon, whatever you make of that. I just thought it was a bizarre coincidence that you should bring Puff up when I was suggesting Mr Costello had written a song about a (possible) paedophile situation. I couldn't help connecting he dots. Sorry if I've tarnished any heroes.

And Panther, I fully recognise that lyric interpretation is not an exact science. I once heard of a guy who interpreted the  "Lye-la-lye" chorus on Paul Simon's song The Boxer as a confession that Simon was literally lying throughout the whole song. I also shared one of my song lyrics with a colleague, who immediately interpreted them to mean the exact reverse of what I had intended.  So I would be the first to accept that I may be wrong in my interpenetration of Watching The Detectives. But only Mr McManus will know if I'm wrong, and believe me, I mean him no harm, and I have no axe to grind. I apologise if you have taken any offence.

And who the heck is Paul McCarthy?

[The Australian Panther]

And who the heck is Paul McCarthy?

D'oh! Of course I meant Paul McCartney!
If Paul McCartney is dead, then who the hell wrote Penny Lane?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rpoPh2dntwY 

I also shared one of my song lyrics with a colleague, who immediately interpreted them to mean the exact reverse of what I had intended.   

And speaking of the Fab Four and backward lyrics, remember the craze of playing records backwards to find the hidden lyrics? 
I see this reading group as a forum for discussion and argument and inevitably there will be disagreements. And so there should be, but when all is said and done, we shouldn't see the arguments as personal put-downs. Nor intend them to be. And if we unintentionally offend, let's be quick to make amends.
 
here is part of what I have communicated to KIngcat in a PM.

It's hard to imagine you were entirely wrong in your interpretation and I think I communicated that in my last post on the subject.
If you look at the wonderful data you can get from CB+, you will notice that there are probably less than 10 of us that post regularly in the reading group but the number of lurkers or casual browsers is often in the hundreds and even over a thousand occasionally.
What I said about be careful what you post because Social Media can be a dangerous place, was written with that audience in mind.
It's all too easy these days to think that if a celebrity writes about something or creates a particular character, that it must be autobiographical.
Only takes a spark to light a bush-fire.As an Aussie, I should know! 

Actually, there were two things I left out of my last interpretation of those lyrics.
Red Dogs - I think I'm right in postulating that a woman out on the town wearing Red is assumed to be sending a signal?
Thinking of many Hollywood films and TV shows where that colour is used that way.
Also I remember when on CB+ we were noticing how many of the bondage covers on GA crime books and Pulps involved women wearing Red!
And the line just before the final chorus, 'Don't get cute!' stands out!
Fascinating!

[K1ngcat]

Actually, there were two things I left out of my last interpretation of those lyrics.
Red Dogs - I think I'm right in postulating that a woman out on the town wearing Red is assumed to be sending a signal?
Thinking of many Hollywood films and TV shows where that colour is used that way.
Also I remember when on CB+ we were noticing how many of the bondage covers on GA crime books and Pulps involved women wearing Red!
And the line just before the final chorus, 'Don't get cute!' stands out!
Fascinating!

Ah, the red shoes...the ones the Angels wanted to wear in another Costello song...also colloquially known as "f√¢£ me"  shoes, they do have a certain reputation. 
And I did notice the change to "Don't get cute" in the last verse, just the sort of thing a PI might say to a suspect ?

Now I wonder if you noticed, in my previous post,  that instead of saying interpretation, I wrote, interpenetration? That's one heck of a Freudian Slip, perhaps we'd better consider the subject closed! 

All the best
K1ngcat

[Morgus]

A while back, ‘Panther and I were discussing how little things change from era to era. If you think about it, binge watching on Netflick is really the high tech equivalent of us going through the collections of comics from the newspapers.
Chester Gould was still running things at DICK TRACY when I was a kid, and he always impressed me. The unerring straight lines showing the gun shot paths always brought back those ballistic reports you’d sometimes see on the TV. His art style reminded me of the unintentional surrealism of composite wanted pictures.
My dad had a re-issue of Dick Tracy, where he is almost killed by Mrs. Pruneface. Anybody else remember the ice blocks slowly melting with the spike in the middle? I can still remember him falling apart in the back of the car, hands over his face after they rescue him.
Gould’s art looked deceptively simple to me as a young kid and I tried to copy it, and then discovered just how complicated it was as I took it apart.
And like you, ‘crash, I get sucked in every time. I didn’t even try to fight it. Just put my feet up and enjoyed the ride.
Kerry Drake I knew about but never read until today, so thanks a lot for that. It was very enjoyable. And ‘Watching the detectives’ is always a treat to hear.
Now, the issue of memories...
My gramma went to her grave believing she saw JFK killed live on TV. (She didn’t. There were no live cameras at the scene of the shooting that day. Just film cameras. All film had to be developed first...) Add to that the fact it happened in Dallas, Texas and we lived on the opposite side of the Great Lakes, which meant on a GOOD day we could get Cleveland on our aerial, but not Dallas.
Didn’t matter. She had replayed it in her mind so many times she believed she had turned while doing the dishes and saw it live on the tube.
That’s why in forensic hypnosis, you don’t deal with the memory directly. You ask them general questions about it but not the memory itself or anything that could lead them to conclusions. (“Think about what he was wearing.” Instead of “was the coat green?” That kind of thing.) The modern neurology folks now think it is nearly imposslbe for us to remember anything without altering it in small ways. The more times you bring it back, the more it can subtly change. So you are encouraged to regard a memory like those old Polaroid photos...touch it and you can easily leave your own fingerprint.
But even with that, Kermit DID play fast and loose with the truth.
They were still funny records, though.

[The Australian Panther]

Four Color (1942 Series)
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=38364

Chester Gould's Dick Tracy is the template for all three of these, so I'm going to start with it.
The art does exactly what Gould wants it to do, and no more.
We have someone chained up somewhere underground in a subway. Classic Gould scenario.
A gadget door. Tracy does what he does best and often, escapes from a complex trap.
The next narrative connects seamlessly with the current one. 
The Villain is a grotesque, armed with a unique weapon.
Question not asked [cleverly the narrative has got us interested in what happens next so we forget about it] - Why did she send a bomb through the mail in the first place?
There are quite a number of elements that don't add up in this story.
We have to remember, tho, that this was originally told and read in daily installments. Without an I-phone or even a portable radio to listen to on the way into work, that was what you had. You didn't have the whole work in front of you to think about. Obviously, Gould was a master at grabbing his audience.
Tracy and Pat get into another complex trap. And more gadgets.
Jim Trailer was a semi-regular in the strip in the early days.
Junior was the star of a number of narratives. He also had a lot of narrow escapes.
The 'holiday' was just a device to get Tracy and Pat out of of the picture so Junior would be on his own. 
So, apparently, no arrangement was made for someone to take care of him?
Not one of Gould's best.
The whole bicycle thing seems highly implausible to a modern audience, but perhaps it seemed reasonable back then.                 
 

[The Australian Panther]

Kerry Drake Detective Cases 2
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=65055

Another grotesque for a villain.
This is a bit of a variation on 'the Phantom of the Opera.' Feels like I've read this story more than once before.
Tracy has Junior, Drake has Firetop.
More cute names, An actor named Jack McCue, A medical examiner named DR Probe! A Woman with Lovebirds named Mrs Finch.
We get a diversion, a technical explanation of how to read handwriting, something Gould would do. 
I hate to start another controversy, but does Carbon Dioxide really drive oxygen out of a room? How?   
It's not mentioned here but wasn't Kerry Drake a district attorney rather than a detective?
i would love to get my hands on a substantial collection of Kerry Drake strips.   

[The Australian Panther]

Super Detective Library 159 - Buck Ryan and The Phantom Prowler
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=84957

The Buck Ryan stories are very British. The characters, the settings, the set-ups.
"Smokey Knight and the Cordite Kid' sounds like a western comic.
Crash Wrote,

All the Dick Tracy elements are here: grotesque villain, clever murder gimmick, scientific detective equipment. Strangely, the realistic-style artwork dulls the story's edge. Murder, madness, action climax--it's all here but without Chester Gould's grotesque art style the overall impression is of a more genteel, you might say a more middle-class, crime story. 

And corny names. And also homely regular non-criminal characters. Tracy had B.O. Plenty and Gravel Gertie and Buck's stories have Ma!     
Couldn't have said it better myself! All of this is true for the whole run of Buck Ryan, but not so much in this story. 
Both Alfred Andriola [Kerry Drake] and Jack Monk liked drawing women and Monk quite memorably so.Both featured memorable female characters. 
Don Freeman put a lot of detail into his stories - they have a really believable sense of time and place.
Of the three of these strips, this is the least 'cartoony' and more believable.
This particular story is unusual in that Buck is on his own with none of his regular cast.
I hope you have all enjoyed these.
Robb will surprise us tomorrow.
Cheers!     

[Quirky Quokka]

Now, the issue of memories...
My gramma went to her grave believing she saw JFK killed live on TV. (She didn’t. There were no live cameras at the scene of the shooting that day. Just film cameras. All film had to be developed first...) Add to that the fact it happened in Dallas, Texas and we lived on the opposite side of the Great Lakes, which meant on a GOOD day we could get Cleveland on our aerial, but not Dallas.
Didn’t matter. She had replayed it in her mind so many times she believed she had turned while doing the dishes and saw it live on the tube.
That’s why in forensic hypnosis, you don’t deal with the memory directly. You ask them general questions about it but not the memory itself or anything that could lead them to conclusions. (“Think about what he was wearing.” Instead of “was the coat green?” That kind of thing.) The modern neurology folks now think it is nearly imposslbe for us to remember anything without altering it in small ways. The more times you bring it back, the more it can subtly change. So you are encouraged to regard a memory like those old Polaroid photos...touch it and you can easily leave your own fingerprint.
But even with that, Kermit DID play fast and loose with the truth.
They were still funny records, though.

That's interesting, Morgus. I was a social psychology lecturer for 25 years and there was a small segment in my class about problems with eyewitness testimony. I found it really fascinating and would have liked to do more. One of the activities I did was to show the class a short film clip from Hitchcock's 'The Man Who Knew Too Much', which included a chase scene in a marketplace. I didn't tell the class why I was asking them to watch it. At one point, the man who was running away fell against some bags of grain and I asked the class a series of questions at the end, including 'where did he hide the gun'? There was no gun, but there would always be some people who thought he put it behind those bags of grain. The power of suggestion.

Cheers

QQ

[Quirky Quokka]

Of the three of these strips, this is the least 'cartoony' and more believable.
This particular story is unusual in that Buck is on his own with none of his regular cast.
I hope you have all enjoyed these.
Robb will surprise us tomorrow.
Cheers!     

I liked the way the story developed in Buck Ryan, though boxing is not one of my favourite topics. Will have to check out some more of these. Some of the titles sound interesting, and I do like a good detective story.

I read the Buck Ryan and Drake ones, but didn't quite finish the Dick Tracy due to time. It was a week when 'life happened', but I appreciated the selections.

Cheers

QQ

[The Australian Panther]

Hey QQ!
There's no rule that you can't post your review after the notional 2 weeks.
I've seen people post reviews over a year later.
If the post is old enough tho, you will get a warning that 'no one has posted for quite a long time, do you still want to? But it won't stop you posting.

It was a week when 'life happened' 

Yes, it does generally seem quite busy right now, doesn't it.
At a post-retirement stage of life, you do seem to spend more time noting the 'HATCHED, MATCHED and DISPATCHED' details.
Cheers!
 

[crashryan]

It's not mentioned here but wasn't Kerry Drake a district attorney rather than a detective?

Kerry Drake was an investigator for the Prosecutor's Office. Sandy was his secretary and eternal fiancee. Sometime around 1953 Sandy was murdered. Drake resigned and joined the police force. He was immediately given an inspector's position. No pounding the beat for Kerry! A few years later he married a widow named Mindy. They had kids--quadruplets--and the strip became more of a soap opera with adventurous bits handled by Kerry's brother Lefty.

[SuperScrounge]

At one point, the man who was running away fell against some bags of grain and I asked the class a series of questions at the end, including 'where did he hide the gun'? There was no gun, but there would always be some people who thought he put it behind those bags of grain. The power of suggestion.

Not necessarily. Teacher asks you a question. You don't know the answer, so you guess. Not remembering a gun doesn't change that, you just think of a scene that seems logical for hiding a gun. *shrug*

[Quirky Quokka]

At one point, the man who was running away fell against some bags of grain and I asked the class a series of questions at the end, including 'where did he hide the gun'? There was no gun, but there would always be some people who thought he put it behind those bags of grain. The power of suggestion.

Not necessarily. Teacher asks you a question. You don't know the answer, so you guess. Not remembering a gun doesn't change that, you just think of a scene that seems logical for hiding a gun. *shrug*

Good point, SuperScrounge. That may have been the case for some students. I haven't been in that job for 9 years now, so I'm a bit rusty, but there was a fair bit of research on common problems with eyewitness testimony. One finding was that some witnesses can incorporate things into their memories if asked a leading question. For example, if they're asked 'what colour was the van?', they might not recall. But if they're asked, 'where was the green van parked?', they'll assume the van was green. I guess there would always be exceptions to the rule though.

Cheers

QQ

[The Australian Panther]

But if they're asked, 'where was the green van parked?', they'll assume the van was green. 

Legally, 'leading the witness!' and a serious no-no. But you can bet money that lawyers sometimes do it.