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Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden

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topic icon Author Topic: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden  (Read 712 times)

gregjh

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Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« on: August 19, 2024, 11:01:05 AM »

Hi all!

For those who don't know me, I'm Greg. Unlike many other members here, I don't have any special skills or insight , so I just post things I enjoy for their own sake. I like comics that focus on heroes and villains and don't inject identity politics or any other type of politics into them (with the very notable exception of World War 2 politics of course!).

So with Deadpool & Wolverine hitting our big screens, I wanted to share some "team-up" comics of the Golden Age so we could compare them. Alas, it seems that these don't really exist. In the GA comic heroes were still a new, fairly un-evolved idea and the only team-ups tended to be of the "Hero and kid version of the hero" type.

Likewise, there are few, if any, heroes like Deadpool who break the 4th wall or make references to modern culture, etc., probably for similar reasons.

What we do have however, is a few rare examples of the more morbid, gritty, morally ambiguous heroes that would become more widespread in later ages of comics. While most genres of comics in the GA were literally exactly what they told you ("horror comics" , "funny animal comics", etc.) I did manage to find a couple of protagonists who weren't quite such clear-cut heroes without explicitly telling us so.

So without further ado, let's take a look at:

1) Hell Rider.
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=77915
Though branded as a "superhero", you will see from the very first page of the story that Hell Rider isn't too sure about that himself. The character shares a strong similarity to a certain Marvel hero (also gritty and ambiguous) and apparently comes from the very end of the GA , in 1971.

2) The Shadow
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=31826
Not to be confused with the Marvel (copyrighted) character of the same name (edit: I meant DC, not Marvel), but perhaps influenced by him? This Shadow is a self-imposed undercover criminal who takes down bad guys from the inside. But we all know that warning about what happens if you gaze long enough into an abyss....

Let me know what you think!

Greg

« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 12:04:00 AM by gregjh »
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paw broon

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2024, 03:59:37 PM »

Interesting idea Greg. 
The Australian Shadow, in this issue anyway, always reminds me of The Spider and his disguise as Blinky McQuade.  This issue of The Shadow appeared 10 years prior to Hell Rider but the story is from the mid '50's?  (Can someone confirm or correct me please?)
As emoore commented on Hell Rider in 2023,
"It's like a mashup of every exploitation genre of the era. Far out! Can you dig it?"
In The Shadow, some panels have the traces of bullets done like old Phantom strips, and some panels remind me of the look of Wilson McCoy, and, oddly, early Dutch beeldromans.  Probably no-0ne else will see that but I'm not too good at the finer points of comic book art.
Notice this is a Tricho publication.  But I think like Marvel before it became Marvel, there were comics released under various company names. 
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2024, 07:13:27 PM »

Yes, Paw, the traces of bullets' trajectory also remind me of The Dutch Beeldromansen.  By the way, I have found 4 or 5 that we don't yet have on CB+ that I'm ready to upload.  I may need some help with that.  I  flipped through this Australian Shadow, but haven't yet read it.  At first, I wondered if he was supposed to be depicted as an Australian Aborigine, Papuan, Melanesian, Andaman Islander, ort South Indian.  But, soon, I realised that he is wearing some kind of dark, netted mask.  It seems that he must be a British agent, rather than Australian, based on where he operates.  The artwork is a bit crude, but the story should be interesting.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2024, 07:25:28 PM »


Hi all!

For those who don't know me, I'm Greg. Unlike many other members here, I don't have any special skills or insight , so I just post things I enjoy for their own sake. I like comics that focus on heroes and villains and don't inject identity politics or any other type of politics into them (with the very notable exception of World War 2 politics of course!).

So with Deadpool & Wolverine hitting our big screens, I wanted to share some "team-up" comics of the Golden Age so we could compare them. Alas, it seems that these don't really exist. In the GA comic heroes were still a new, fairly un-evolved idea and the only teams-ups tended to be of the "Hero and kid version of the hero" type.

Likewise, there are few, if any, heroes like Deadpool who break the 4th wall or make references to modern culture, etc., probably for similar reasons.

What we do have however, is a few rare examples of the more morbid, gritty, morally ambiguous heroes that would become more widespread in later ages of comics. While most genres of comics in the GA were literally exactly what they told you ("horror comics" , "funny animal comics", etc.) I did manage to find a couple of protagonists who weren't quite such clear-cut heroes without explicitly telling us so.

So without further ado, let's take a look at:

1) Hell Rider.
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=77915
Though branded as a "superhero", you will see from the very first page of the story that Hell Rider isn't too sure about that himself. The character shares a strong similarity to a certain Marvel hero (also gritty and ambiguous) and apparently comes from the very end of the GA , in 1971.

2) The Shadow
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=31826
Not to be confused with the Marvel (copyrighted) character of the same name, but perhaps influenced by him? This Shadow is a self-imposed undercover criminal who takes down bad guys from the inside. But we all know that warning about what happens if gaze long enough into an abyss....

Let me know what you think!

Greg


These seem to be interesting choices.  I didn't know that Marvel used "The Shadow".  I thought that he was strictly a Street and Smith copyrighted charcter in USA.  They had his rights first in their Pulp Novels, and then near the start of comic books, they used him in Comic books.  I thought they were still operating with books and magazines, and still had his rights, which is why virtually ALL their GA comic books are still not in The PD.  Did Marvel recently (last 30 years) purchase those copyrights and have produced new stories using that character?  I didn't remember Timely, late '40s Marvel, or Atlas publishing "The Shadow".  I thought The Australian Shadow was influenced by The US Street and Smith character.  Or was "The Shadow" originally a British character?  I know there were early films starring him (including UK productions).  Was he a British novel, short-story, or Pulp Novel character before he appeared in the US Pulps?
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2024, 09:28:23 PM »

!/ I don't remember MARVEL ever publishing the [US] Shadow. But DC certainly did.
Their first run featured memorable art by Mike Kaluta.
The Shadow, no. 4, April-May 1974; cover art [and interior] by Michael W. Kaluta.
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=31826
The Art was outstanding but for me, the books were disappointing because, for one thing, it lacked what Greg calls, 'The grit.'
2/ Currently Dynamite has the license and the art is often quite striking, but as is often the case with Dynamite, something is lacking.
3/ FREW in Australia which has the rights to the Oz shadow, is reprinting some but has not printed new stories, except for a team-up serial that they did with their characters a year or so ago. 
4/ The Frew characters were licensed to a Brazilian publisher during the 50s and 60's and the Shadow was 'SOMBRA'
The 'Hellrider' book is interesting for more than one reason.
Happy reading. 
Thanks, Greg, should be an interesting fortnight. 
     
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gregjh

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2024, 12:00:38 AM »

This is it, TAP. I got the two big players mixed up.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2024, 09:58:03 PM »

Hell-Rider #2

Interesting choice, Greg. I didn't realise we had comics from the early 70s on the site. Because that was only 30 years ago, right?  ;)

A couple of things struck me right away about the cover. First, the logistics. If the hairy-chested guy is holding a woman in one arm and he's only holding onto the window sill by one foot, wouldn't a kick from Hell-Rider send them both plummeting to their deaths? Or maybe Hell-rider kicks them both inside. Still, an interesting action-packed pic.

I also noticed the words in the bottom right corner - 'She stings like a bee, floats like the Butterfly'. I thought they must be doing a spin on the lyrics from the 'Black Superman (Muhammad Ali)' song. But when I looked it up, that song came out in 1974 (though the music had been used previously) and this book is 1971. So was that a saying people used? I've never heard of it apart from the Muhammad Ali song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyK_8WK_iwo

Now to the actual comic. It was good that they gave a prologue to catch us up on the story so far. Interesting back story that he'd been used as a guinea pig for an experimental drug in Vietnam. This comic would have resonated a lot with teenagers and young adults from that era - Vietnam, anti-establishment, cool motorcycles--a groovy thing.

The writing was a step up from many others we've seen, though I did pick the plot twist in 'Night of the Ripper' pretty early.

The art was exceptional. Great facial expressions and action shots. Also interesting panel layouts. For example, on p. 16, the first panel is an inverted-L, with the frame spanning the top and continuing down the right-hand side. Then the 3 inserts of someone injecting themselves which is happening concurrently. Lots of great examples, but p. 35 was another one that stands out. No frames, but the word balloons help us follow the action of the motorcyclists down the page.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Greg.

Cheers

Quirky Quokka

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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2024, 11:27:32 PM »


Hell-Rider #2

Interesting choice, Greg.  (1) I didn't realise we had comics from the early 70s on the site. Because that was only 30 years ago, right;)

A couple of things struck me right away about the cover. First, the logistics. If the hairy-chested guy is holding a woman in one arm and he's only holding onto the window sill by one foot, wouldn't a kick from Hell-Rider send them both plummeting to their deaths? Or maybe Hell-rider kicks them both inside. Still, an interesting action-packed pic.

I also noticed the words in the bottom right corner -(2) 'She stings like a bee, floats like the Butterfly'. I thought they must be doing a spin on the lyrics from the 'Black Superman (Muhammad Ali)' song. But when I looked it up, that song came out in 1974 (though the music had been used previously) and this book is 1971. So was that a saying people used? I've never heard of it apart from the Muhammad Ali song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyK_8WK_iwo

Now to the actual comic. It was good that they gave a prologue to catch us up on the story so far. Interesting back story that he'd been used as a guinea pig for an experimental drug in Vietnam. This comic would have resonated a lot with teenagers and young adults from that era - Vietnam, anti-establishment, cool motorcycles--a groovy thing.

The writing was a step up from many others we've seen, though I did pick the plot twist in 'Night of the Ripper' pretty early.

The art was exceptional. Great facial expressions and action shots. Also interesting panel layouts. For example, on p. 16, the first panel is an inverted-L, with the frame spanning the top and continuing down the right-hand side. Then the 3 inserts of someone injecting themselves which is happening concurrently. Lots of great examples, but p. 35 was another one that stands out. No frames, but the word balloons help us follow the action of the motorcyclists down the page.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Greg.

Cheers

Quirky Quokka

(1) Actually, the early 1970s was 50 years ago!  But who's counting?  Your laughing emoji and the fact that I've been living in the long-gone past since 1964, and even I know that we are 50 years past that, leads me to believe that the mention of a 30 year gag is some sort of joke.  Can you please tell me what I'm missing (as I haven't paid attention to what's going on in The World, or even right where I am for about the last 60 years.

(2) I dropped out about 1964, so I have no idea about that song about Muhammad Ali.  But Cassius Clay (latrer known as Muhammad Ali), back in 1964, stated those words in a poem he wrote and stated in a press conference about his upcoming World Championship fight, that he, himself, would float like a butterfly and sting like a bee in that fight, to defeat Sonny Liston, who had bragged that he would defeat Ali.  That implied that he would use evasive footwork to avoid Liston's heavy knockout punch, and so, be able to sneak in counter punches when Liston would be unprepared, and those hits would be very painful, like bee stings.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2024, 02:23:09 AM »



(1) Actually, the early 1970s was 50 years ago!  But who's counting?  Your laughing emoji and the fact that I've been living in the long-gone past since 1964, and even I know that we are 50 years past that, leads me to believe that the mention of a 30 year gag is some sort of joke.  Can you please tell me what I'm missing (as I haven't paid attention to what's going on in The World, or even right where I am for about the last 60 years.

(2) I dropped out about 1964, so I have no idea about that song about Muhammad Ali.  But Cassius Clay (latrer known as Muhammad Ali), back in 1964, stated those words in a poem he wrote and stated in a press conference about his upcoming World Championship fight, that he, himself, would float like a butterfly and sting like a bee in that fight, to defeat Sonny Liston, who had bragged that he would defeat Ali.  That implied that he would use evasive footwork to avoid Liston's heavy knockout punch, and so, be able to sneak in counter punches when Liston would be unprepared, and those hits would be very painful, like bee stings.


Hi Robb - Yes the comment about 30 years ago was a joke, but maybe pretty obscure. I've just noticed a lot of memes and posts going around Facebook recently where people are surprised to realise how long ago the 70s and 80s were. I went to high school in the 70s, and if I stop and think about it being 50 years ago, I think, 'That can't be right. How could 50 years have passed?' There have also been posts about 'classic' movies from the 1980s, and I think, 'They're not classics. Movie classics are from the 1930s to 1950s.' Then I realise that when I discovered those classic movies in the 70s and 80s, they were about the same period in the past as the 80s are today. Hope that makes sense, but yes it was a bit obscure.

And thanks for the extra info about Muhammad Ali. I didn't realise that those lines were originally from a poem. But I do remember hearing the song on the radio a lot when it first came out.

Cheers

QQ
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2024, 08:53:55 AM »

The Shadow
I find it interesting that both The British AND The Australian publishers, took the US Shadow character, and adapted him to their own, somewhat different character set in non-American settings.  I also didn't know that Archie Comics, in 1964-65, and DC Comics, 1973-75, long after Street and Smith stopped publishing new stories (1949), bought the copyright for their own series with that character.  And Marvel Comics DID publish one single Graphic Novel, using thais character, in 1988, and Dark Horse Comics had a series starring him, from 1993-95, with one last issue in 2014.

The Australian Shadow 83
Yes, the artwork reminds me a little of that in some of the Dutch Beeldromansen.  This is the 83rd issue of "The Shadow" series, and yet they included a brief narrative introduction/biography, touching on his origin story for the readers, which takes up the entire first page.  It is interesting that his alter-ego, Jimmy Gray (NOT Lamont Cranston???) is a layabout playboy, who inherited a large fortune from his father (somewhat like Batman), and he seems to butt into Scotland Yard's Chief Inspector Drummond (Bulldog Drummond worked a Longggggg time!) cases.  But, luckily, the aged senile chief detective has no idea that The Shadow is Jimmy Gray.  Despite having several people wh help him in his "war on crime", he is also his own main undercover agent, spying on London's criminals disguised as a disabled old man who doesn't disapprove of their illegal activities, and is a bit of a crook, himself.  He finds out when crimes are planned to be committed, and nips them in the bud.  He  seems to take on more roles than most GA crime fighters (including what could have been handled by a sidekick.

I already notice a mistake by the storywriter and/or artist.  There is no time break in the transition from the introduction of "The Shadow" character to the beginning of the story.  That would have incensed every one of the editors for whom I've worked to the point of questioning the writer's level of professionalism, and one more error of that level would probably assure that that writer would no longer work for that publisher in future.  The artist (if he or she was not also the writer) should have informed the editor when noticing the error, to have a narrative time and location change indicator.  The story starts in a panel showing a car passing a building, with no narrative or indication of the location.  I've read thousands of comics stories, and I can't remember ever encountering such a situation before this occasion.

Out of the blue, Inspector Drummond tells filthy-rich, lazy playboy, Jimmy Gray about Scotland Yard's National Police's plan to have its agents (operatives) spy on a suspected British citizen , working (as a traitor) for a foreign (hinted to be USSR (Communist)) spy ring, and also thatr Drummond plans to accompany a British diplomat to Berlin, as his bodyguard.  There is no explanation as to why Gray was consulted, which is rather exasperating, given that Gray's/The Shadow's disguise is of a useless lazy playboy.  This implies that Gray must be known as being of some use to The Police.  But, the reader was told, in the story's introduction, that Drummond did NOT know that Gray was The Shadow.

So Gray decides to go along on that official trip (joining it later in process) to help prevent the murder, and nab the potential murderers.  He meets Drummond and the planned victim on their train, and invites himself to join them in their cabin.  The Inspector doesn't object that a "useless" civilian butts in to a police case.  When the lights suddenly turn off, Gray puts on his mask (becoming The Shadow), grabs the "victim" and removes him from danger, aftershooting the assailant's gun from his hand.  The Shadow disappears, and the victim returns to the cabin.  The Shadow follows the traitor, as we see the latter telephoning his organisation's headquarters in Paris telling them to kill the British diplomat as his car passes by their building. The Shadow arrives there befor Drummond and the victim.  He finds The Communist spies' headquarters, beats up several of there agents, telephones The Paris Police, to have them come and arrest the foreign agents.  The Shadow arrives in Berlin before Drummond and the victim.  He kills scores of enemy agents, with a stolen machine gun and stolen hand grenades, saving the British diplomat and leaving the scene, undetected. 

This story had lots of action, but a lot of it made little sense, and was too unbelievable for me to enjoy.  The artwork is passable, but reasonably crude, and nothing special.  The book only provides 22 pages to tell what
would be best as a larger -scoped story, with many more pages to provide a better setting, more details, and better story pacing.  All this, only in black and white, leaves reading this book a less enjoyable experience than it could have been.  The overall general plot of this story is fine, and its scope could have been a better fit IF the Paris scenes were cut out and replaced with more setting detail, background information on The Communists' motivations, and The Shadow getting more help from his own regular operatives, and his finding out about the plot through being in disguise and overhearing their planning or receiving orders from their headquarters, as opposed to being the confidant of the chief police officer on a Police case, when he is thought to be a"useless" millionaire playboy with no official relationship with their organisation.  None of the elements to which I object are necessary for this story.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2024, 09:18:01 AM »




(1) Actually, the early 1970s was 50 years ago!  But who's counting?  Your laughing emoji and the fact that I've been living in the long-gone past since 1964, and even I know that we are 50 years past that, leads me to believe that the mention of a 30 year gag is some sort of joke.  Can you please tell me what I'm missing (as I haven't paid attention to what's going on in The World, or even right where I am for about the last 60 years.

(2) I dropped out about 1964, so I have no idea about that song about Muhammad Ali.  But Cassius Clay (latrer known as Muhammad Ali), back in 1964, stated those words in a poem he wrote and stated in a press conference about his upcoming World Championship fight, that he, himself, would float like a butterfly and sting like a bee in that fight, to defeat Sonny Liston, who had bragged that he would defeat Ali.  That implied that he would use evasive footwork to avoid Liston's heavy knockout punch, and so, be able to sneak in counter punches when Liston would be unprepared, and those hits would be very painful, like bee stings.


Hi Robb - Yes the comment about 30 years ago was a joke, but maybe pretty obscure. I've just noticed a lot of memes and posts going around Facebook recently where people are surprised to realise how long ago the 70s and 80s were. I went to high school in the 70s, and if I stop and think about it being 50 years ago, I think, 'That can't be right. How could 50 years have passed?' There have also been posts about 'classic' movies from the 1980s, and I think, 'They're not classics. Movie classics are from the 1930s to 1950s.' Then I realise that when I discovered those classic movies in the 70s and 80s, they were about the same period in the past as the 80s are today. Hope that makes sense, but yes it was a bit obscure.

And thanks for the extra info about Muhammad Ali. I didn't realise that those lines were originally from a poem. But I do remember hearing the song on the radio a lot when it first came out.

Cheers
QQ   


I know EXACTLY how you feel, in the very same way, believing that the classic films are from the '30s-'50s, except that I was born about 20 years earlier.  But the feeling that it can't have been THAT long ago is very similar. 

Cassius Clay always wrote and quoted them to the press just before his World Championship fights, explaining how he was going to defeat his opponent.  He was quite the showman.

The first Cassius Marcellus Clay, born in 1820, was a Republican politician from Kentucky. An ardent abolitionist, Clay founded an anti-slavery newspaper, The True American, in 1845. Ten years later, Clay granted land for Berea College, the first integrated co-educational college in the South, a radical idea in 1855.
Ali's father—Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr. —was named after a Kentucky slave owner turned abolitionist.

The real Muhammad Ali (Who lived from 1769 to 1849) was an Ottoman Albanian governor and military commander, who was the de facto ruler of Egypt from 1805 to 1848, considered the founder of modern Egypt. At the height of his rule, he controlled Egypt, Sudan, Hejaz, the Levant, Crete and parts of Greece.

Interesting that BOTH of his chosen namesakes (one by his father, and the other by himself) were so-called "Caucasians", rather than men of visible African decent, in the recent sense - (of course we ALL are from ultimate African descent).  That's a bit ironic, given tha Clay(Ali) hob-nobbed with Malcolm -X and other Black Power and Black Nationalist leaders.
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gregjh

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2024, 01:02:57 PM »

I am enjoying the discussions and will post my thoughts towards the end of this reading cycle. I concur with Quirky regarding the "how long ago" jokes. For my generation the memes and jokes go something like this.



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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2024, 09:47:43 PM »


I am enjoying the discussions and will post my thoughts towards the end of this reading cycle. I concur with Quirky regarding the "how long ago" jokes. For my generation the memes and jokes go something like this.





LOL Greg, yes they're exactly the sorts of memes I was talking about. I realised a few months ago that it's 50 years since I started high school and I had to have a lie down!  ;D

Cheers

QQ
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2024, 08:22:01 AM »

Robb said,
Quote
as opposed to being the confidant of the chief police officer on a Police case, when he is thought to be a"useless" millionaire playboy with no official relationship with their organisation. 

They couldn't just be close friends?
Doesn't Bruce Wayne fill the same role vis-a-vis Commissioner Gordon?
cheers! 

« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 10:31:40 PM by The Australian Panther »
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Downunder Dan

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2024, 11:35:39 AM »


The Australian Shadow, in this issue anyway, always reminds me of The Spider and his disguise as Blinky McQuade.  This issue of The Shadow appeared 10 years prior to Hell Rider but the story is from the mid '50's?  (Can someone confirm or correct me please?)
As emoore commented on Hell Rider in 2023,
"It's like a mashup of every exploitation genre of the era. Far out! Can you dig it?"
In The Shadow, some panels have the traces of bullets done like old Phantom strips, and some panels remind me of the look of Wilson McCoy, and, oddly, early Dutch beeldromans.  Probably no-0ne else will see that but I'm not too good at the finer points of comic book art.
Notice this is a Tricho publication.  But I think like Marvel before it became Marvel, there were comics released under various company names.


Just following up on this. Tricho is an associated company of Frew (as are Photo-Type and Page). I haven't got a complete handle on this, but what it looks like across the Frew titles back then is that, while they are publishing new stories, they are on Frew. When they are Tricho titles, they are reprints but are actively managed. Photo-Type and Page are also reprints but quite passively managed. You can see titles published once a year, and each year it's the same comic other than the issue numbers and (I suspect) the ads. Photo-Type and Page also don't follow on from the Frew/Tricho numbering.

I can't see an earlier publication of The Shadow 83, but the AusReprints site (which does a decent job of at least having cover of most issues up) doesn't have a Frew issue with this cover - but there are 10 issues out of the 76 issue run of the Shadow with no cover or issue details. It's likely that an earlier publication of this issue is one of those 10. The Frew issues were from 1954-1960.
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Morgus

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2024, 05:05:22 PM »

I never thought how good we had it as a kid with all the team-ups that happened. Took it for granted. The Superman/Flash race, Green Lantern and Green Arrow, the list goes on.
I THOGUHT there was a team up with either Blue Beetle or Air Boy before that, but digging into the titles didn’t come up with anything. And I also thought Plastic Man broke the fourth wall from time to time. Also looks like that was a no go. (Funny thing; POLICE comics had covers with The Spirit and Plastic Man as if they were in the same story. was THAT the first team up???)
In that same way, did Dr Strange and Thor ever team up, or were they just in the same issue together with different adventures?
You guys know everything; when did it all begin with team ups? Do we count WORLDS’ FINEST with Superman and Batman?
Australian SHADOW was okay, but I found the discussion of who owned what and when more interesting. Last time I even gave it any thought was watching THE SHADOW movie with my kids decades ago. Still Street and Smith then, if I remember the credits right.
“Paw, The Spider was just berserk. Those stories had riots and murder and folks just LOSING it on each other. Great way to spend an afternoon.
My favourite was HELL RIDER, with choice Andru/ Esposito work. Whole thing had a Wally Wood indie/Warren publishing vibe to it.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2024, 05:59:28 PM »


Robb said,
Quote
as opposed to being the confidant of the chief police officer on a Police case, when he is thought to be a"useless" millionaire playboy with no official relationship with their organisation. 

They couldn't just be close friends?
Doesn't Brice Wayne fill the same role vis-a-vis Commissioner Gordon?
cheers!

Why would a "hard nosed" man's man, dedicated to wiping out crime, and keeping his community (and really
ALL of The UK) safe, make ANY effort to become a good friend of a "useless playboy", who is selfish and lazy, and living a frivilous life of idleness, interrupted only by parties and revelry?  The whole idea of this undercover "Man of Mystery" is sabotaged by risk of severely weakening his cover IF they are good friends.  I suppose it adds a lot of irony, which provides a comedic effect.  But, at the same time it adds more unbelievability to the basic series scenario.  Personally, I'd rather have the hero be more resourceful, and get the information another way, avoiding that risk, especially as a close relationship between them isn't at all necessary to the plot, and wouldn't be in any of the series' stories.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2024, 05:01:00 AM »

Hi all

I was getting a little confused about the different versions of The Shadow, as I'm not familiar with any of them, though I have seen the Australian Shadow in some of the Frew Giant Size issues. Here's what the 'From Sunbeams to Sunset' book says about it:

'In 1950, Frew commenced publishing Jeff Wilkinson's The Shadow ... The Shadow's exploits were told in two series of comic books. The first series of twenty-three books commenced with a sixpenny cover price. After a dozen issues Peter Chapman took over the art chores. By the time the second series (again commencing at #1) kicked off, the comic's price had risen to eight pence.  Peter drew the comic until 1959, when the title went into reprints. The Shadow's second series continued (with varying publisher's credits) to eventually total 168 issues. Accordingly, The Shadow's run was the second largest for any locally created comic book. Commencing from the 1950s, The Shadow was also reprinted in Brazil, where the strips were published irregularly (as 'O Sombra') within La Selva's 'Selecoes Juvenis' comic. The Shadow appeared in RGE's 'Aguia Negra' comic book, where stories featuring The Shadow included both reprints and new Brazilian stories.'

Also, if The Shadow was an Australian creation, I wondered why he was based in England (though that's not entirely unusual). His creator, Jeff Wilkinson, was born in West Yorkshire in England, but visited Australia when serving in the Pacific with the Royal Navy during WWII. After the war, he settled in Sydney and freelanced drawing comic strips. He also drew for The Phantom Ranger.

Cheers

QQ
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2024, 05:56:55 AM »


Hi all

I was getting a little confused about the different versions of The Shadow, as I'm not familiar with any of them, though I have seen the Australian Shadow in some of the Frew Giant Size issues. Here's what the 'From Sunbeams to Sunset' book says about it:

'In 1950, Frew commenced publishing Jeff Wilkinson's The Shadow ... The Shadow's exploits were told in two series of comic books. The first series of twenty-three books commenced with a sixpenny cover price. After a dozen issues Peter Chapman took over the art chores. By the time the second series (again commencing at #1) kicked off, the comic's price had risen to eight pence.  Peter drew the comic until 1959, when the title went into reprints. The Shadow's second series continued (with varying publisher's credits) to eventually total 168 issues. Accordingly, The Shadow's run was the second largest for any locally created comic book. Commencing from the 1950s, The Shadow was also reprinted in Brazil, where the strips were published irregularly (as 'O Sombra') within La Selva's 'Selecoes Juvenis' comic. The Shadow appeared in RGE's 'Aguia Negra' comic book, where stories featuring The Shadow included both reprints and new Brazilian stories.'

Also, if The Shadow was an Australian creation, I wondered why he was based in England (though that's not entirely unusual). His creator, Jeff Wilkinson, was born in West Yorkshire in England, but visited Australia when serving in the Pacific with the Royal Navy during WWII. After the war, he settled in Sydney and freelanced drawing comic strips. He also drew for The Phantom Ranger.

Cheers

QQ

The Australian Shadow was started in comic books in 1950, already in the height of "The Cold War" with USA, The UK, and Western Europe basically vs. The USSR.  There was more espionage going on than ever before.  It was a perfect vehicle for a phantom spy, who was extremely difficult to see, operating almost exclusively at night, wearing a black mask and black clothing.  At that time, The UK had a LOT more espionage agents operating than Australia, Canada, or any of the other Commonwealth countries.  So, with the stories  taking place in Europe, (where most of Europe's spying on USSR activities took place, and most of USSR's spying on The Western Powers (and the Western European countries the Communists wanted to take over) took place, it was more believable that The Shadow was a British agent as opposed to an Australian, because The Australian public didn't know of any significant spying that their country's Intelligence was doing on Soviet operations.  Also, I assume that The Australian magazine and comic book readers were long used to reading British-produced adventure-hero stories in original and re-printed British magazines and comic books.  So they'd have no problem reading about another British adventure hero.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2024, 01:57:26 AM »



The Australian Shadow was started in comic books in 1950, already in the height of "The Cold War" with USA, The UK, and Western Europe basically vs. The USSR.  There was more espionage going on than ever before.  It was a perfect vehicle for a phantom spy, who was extremely difficult to see, operating almost exclusively at night, wearing a black mask and black clothing.  At that time, The UK had a LOT more espionage agents operating than Australia, Canada, or any of the other Commonwealth countries.  So, with the stories  taking place in Europe, (where most of Europe's spying on USSR activities took place, and most of USSR's spying on The Western Powers (and the Western European countries the Communists wanted to take over) took place, it was more believable that The Shadow was a British agent as opposed to an Australian, because The Australian public didn't know of any significant spying that their country's Intelligence was doing on Soviet operations.  Also, I assume that The Australian magazine and comic book readers were long used to reading British-produced adventure-hero stories in original and re-printed British magazines and comic books.  So they'd have no problem reading about another British adventure hero.


Hi Robb

Thanks for the extra info. That makes sense. And since Wilkinson was born in England and served in WWII, he would have been more aware of the situation in England and Europe too. I'm not sure how much spy activity was going in and out of Australia at that time, though there was one really famous case in 1954 that people still talk about - The Petrov Affair. Husband and wife team, Vladimir and Evdokia Petrov, arrived in Australia in 1951 and worked as diplomats at the Soviet Embassy in Canberra, but they were actually spies who'd been tasked with getting a Russian spy network going in Australia. Their position became precarious after the death of Stalin (more detail at following link). Vladimir negotiated asylum without mentioning it to his wife. When the Prime Minister announced Vladimir's defection, the Soviet Embassy placed his wife under house arrest and two 'couriers' arrived from the Soviet Union to escort her back. The link below shows a famous pic of a very distressed Evdokia being taken away. However, the Australian government intercepted the plane at Darwin and asked if she would like to defect too. She eventually did, and the Petrovs lived a quiet life in Australia until their deaths in 1991 (Vladimir) and 2002 (Evdokia).

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/petrov-affair

Cheers

QQ
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2024, 04:32:00 AM »

Hell Rider #2

Night of the Ripper
Did the writer really think he would fool anyone with that 'twist' ending? It was so fricking obvious. (TV shows love having some 'old friend of the hero's' show up and turn out to be the secret villain.)


Blood On Their Spokes
Eh, kind of hard to root for such blood-thirsty characters.


Against the Brothers of the Crimson Cross!
Eh, okay story of the time period.


Shanghia.. 70's style!
So... Maria is now an illegal alien?


The art was the best thing about this book. The writing, while okay, just didn't live up to the art.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2024, 07:00:59 AM »




The Australian Shadow was started in comic books in 1950, already in the height of "The Cold War" with USA, The UK, and Western Europe basically vs. The USSR.  There was more espionage going on than ever before.  It was a perfect vehicle for a phantom spy, who was extremely difficult to see, operating almost exclusively at night, wearing a black mask and black clothing.  At that time, The UK had a LOT more espionage agents operating than Australia, Canada, or any of the other Commonwealth countries.  So, with the stories  taking place in Europe, (where most of Europe's spying on USSR activities took place, and most of USSR's spying on The Western Powers (and the Western European countries the Communists wanted to take over) took place, it was more believable that The Shadow was a British agent as opposed to an Australian, because The Australian public didn't know of any significant spying that their country's Intelligence was doing on Soviet operations.  Also, I assume that The Australian magazine and comic book readers were long used to reading British-produced adventure-hero stories in original and re-printed British magazines and comic books.  So they'd have no problem reading about another British adventure hero.


Hi Robb

Thanks for the extra info. That makes sense. And since Wilkinson was born in England and served in WWII, he would have been more aware of the situation in England and Europe too. I'm not sure how much spy activity was going in and out of Australia at that time, though there was one really famous case in 1954 that people still talk about - The Petrov Affair. Husband and wife team, Vladimir and Evdokia Petrov, arrived in Australia in 1951 and worked as diplomats at the Soviet Embassy in Canberra, but they were actually spies who'd been tasked with getting a Russian spy network going in Australia. Their position became precarious after the death of Stalin (more detail at following link). Vladimir negotiated asylum without mentioning it to his wife. When the Prime Minister announced Vladimir's defection, the Soviet Embassy placed his wife under house arrest and two 'couriers' arrived from the Soviet Union to escort her back. The link below shows a famous pic of a very distressed Evdokia being taken away. However, the Australian government intercepted the plane at Darwin and asked if she would like to defect too. She eventually did, and the Petrovs lived a quiet life in Australia until their deaths in 1991 (Vladimir) and 2002 (Evdokia).

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/petrov-affair
Cheers
QQ   


Well, based on that information, Australia clearly was involved in The Cold War espionage.  I hadn't known about that.  But, as it was a Commonwealth Country, The Russians should have (and DID) suspect that The UK, Canada and Australia would share military information.  I would have guessed that China would have been more active in Australia.  But did Communist China even have any kind of relations with Australia back in The 1950s.  I don't remember Canada or USA having any with them back then, until Richard Nixon broke through and relations started in 1972.  And that information that Australia uncovered was very vital tro The West, as a whole.  That must have been quite a feather in your governments' caps.  I don't remember that event being on our TV or radio news, or remember seeing it in our newspaper.  Maybe it's not the kind of thing that's made public until 50 years later?
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2024, 08:33:54 AM »


Hell Rider #2

Night of the Ripper
Did the writer really think he would fool anyone with that 'twist' ending? It was so fricking obvious. (TV shows love having some 'old friend of the hero's' show up and turn out to be the secret villain.)



Yes, it was pretty easy to pick the twist. Though would it have been as easy to pick 50 years ago? Maybe we're just really used to seeing that kind of thing now. Or maybe it was old news then too. I didn't mind the writing in the script, though the plot had some problems.

Cheers

QQ
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2024, 08:43:01 AM »



Well, based on that information, Australia clearly was involved in The Cold War espionage.  I hadn't known about that.  But, as it was a Commonwealth Country, The Russians should have (and DID) suspect that The UK, Canada and Australia would share military information.  I would have guessed that China would have been more active in Australia.  But did Communist China even have any kind of relations with Australia back in The 1950s.  I don't remember Canada or USA having any with them back then, until Richard Nixon broke through and relations started in 1972.  And that information that Australia uncovered was very vital to The West, as a whole.  That must have been quite a feather in your governments' caps.  I don't remember that event being on our TV or radio news, or remember seeing it in our newspaper.  Maybe it's not the kind of thing that's made public until 50 years later?


Hi Robb

I think the Petrov Affair was big news at the time, including that famous photo of Evdokia being taken away by the Russian 'couriers'. The Australian Prime Minister, Robert Menzies, announced Vladimir's defection in parliament and there was a Royal Commission, so there would have been news reports. But no doubt there were many secret documents and details that weren't made public at the time. I think a lot of those documents would have been made available after the 30-year period was over, though there might still be some that are classified. I'm not sure if China had any involvement back then, but there is a lot more involvement these days. Spying must be so much easier these days with the internet and all manner of technology.

Cheers

QQ
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #330 - The gritty side of golden
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2024, 09:06:23 PM »




Well, based on that information, Australia clearly was involved in The Cold War espionage.  I hadn't known about that.  But, as it was a Commonwealth Country, The Russians should have (and DID) suspect that The UK, Canada and Australia would share military information.  I would have guessed that China would have been more active in Australia.  But did Communist China even have any kind of relations with Australia back in The 1950s.  I don't remember Canada or USA having any with them back then, until Richard Nixon broke through and relations started in 1972.  And that information that Australia uncovered was very vital to The West, as a whole.  That must have been quite a feather in your governments' caps.  I don't remember that event being on our TV or radio news, or remember seeing it in our newspaper.  Maybe it's not the kind of thing that's made public until 50 years later?


Hi Robb

I think the Petrov Affair was big news at the time, including that famous photo of Evdokia being taken away by the Russian 'couriers'. The Australian Prime Minister, Robert Menzies, announced Vladimir's defection in parliament and there was a Royal Commission, so there would have been news reports. But no doubt there were many secret documents and details that weren't made public at the time. I think a lot of those documents would have been made available after the 30-year period was over, though there might still be some that are classified. I'm not sure if China had any involvement back then, but there is a lot more involvement these days. Spying must be so much easier these days with the internet and all manner of technology.
Cheers
QQ 

Well, I was only about 9 years old then, so I didn't read the newspaper for news.  So, I either didn't hear my parents or grandparents talking about it, or just didn't pay attention when they did.  I DO remember when The US had the trial of accused spies, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, and I had a LOT of interest in that, given that my mother's father, with whom we lived for several years, had the name Julius Rosenberg, and he had a sister named Ethel.  Unbelievable coincidence.  He took a lot of ribbing, even though we weren't in USA at that time.  We heard it through the grapevine that they were innocent of selling classified information to The Soviets, but were framed, to shield the real criminal.  They were easy marks, due to their affiliation with The US Communist Party.
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