[paw broon]

Just going back to something jimmm said above re. Max und Moritz.  There is quite a bit of stuff available on the net, here, for instance:-
http://germanstories.vcu.edu/mm/mmmenu.html
But they all have a copyright notice on them :-
"

[mr_goldenage]

Hi Paw,

What do they think they are copyrighting? All that stuff is PD. Interesting.

RB @ Work.

[paw broon]

Unless it's the English translations and if it is then I assume the original  German is o.k.  And in any  case all the  stuff on the site is downloadable. As you say, interesting!

[jimmm kelly]

Well from the books I have seen, the published editions have the words reset in new typography. So the publisher would own the copyright on the typography. And they would own the editorial content.

From what I can find on the internet, the original didn't have set type, but looks to have been hand printed over the images. So in this way it's more like a comic book.

[jimmm kelly]

I grant that having balloons makes something look more comic book to me. Although, a lot of comics didn't have balloons and the convention for balloons was an evolving thing. And it seems like comics took a step backward when first person narrative captions came to dominate a lot of comics in the '80s and going forward.

But I think that for Max und Moritz it's the evolution of sequential art that the historians would say is the important factor. Although, I personally reject the whole sequential art argument as a definition for what makes comics comics. I feel that it rules out a lot of what used to be under the umbrella of comics, while letting in a lot of soggy notions that don't belong under that umbrella.

[narfstar]

If it is PD then it is PD. Not sure if the translation would be PD also but I suspect it would. To be copyrightable it must add or alter significantly the original. A translation of the original is still saying the same thing as the original. I am sure this has been determined for other instances if someone is good at looking that sort of thing up. Just redoing the typset I would think not at all copyright. I am pretty sure I read that removing the color was NOT copyright. So we could use copies of reprints of public domain works in most cases despite the thoughts of the new printer.

[paw broon]

jimmm, I like your thinking and being a fan of text strips as well as balloon strips, your ideas nicely blur the boundaries and lessen the impact of questions such as "are newspaper strips comics"?
  The tradition of "comics" with illustrated panels and text below is/was well known in Europe.  Famous newspaper features such as Rupert the Bear in the U.K. run like that and popular strips such as Kapitein Rob and Eric de Noorman appeared in newspaper and then were collected in landscape "comicbooks".  In fact, here on CB+, there are examples of portrait format comics with text strips.  These tended to die out, as did story papers, and we were left with all balloon strips. The thing that seems a hang up with many fans and experts is the sequential art issue.  Now, I know all the claims made for Kirby and, as a fan, appreciate the work of Jesse Marsh, who seamlessly processes a story into the reader's eye but that is simply a different way of telling a comic story from doing it with a text strip, imo.   And newspaper ballon strips are yet another way of telling the story. At their best, e.g.Alex Raymond, Caniff, Sickles, they are as seamlessly done as regular comics, you just get the story in smaller bits.   

I might be courting criticism here, but bring it on

[narfstar]

JVJ is not a fan of the newspaper strip format for the most part. I have been reading Little Abner from the start and it flows very well. I have a Alley Oop collection and Phantom collection that I think the art flows very well. Some flow better than others. Comics that are reprints of newspaper strips sometimes look  much too stiff to me.

[jimmm kelly]

I read all of those Scott McCloud books (well in the store--I didn't actaully buy them--oops), and I understand that he wanted to pay homage to Will Eisner, with his sequential art theory. But I think Will was just thinking in a very local way about his work and not really giving it a lot of thought. McCloud used that as a whole foundation for his semiotic theories and it's not a solid foundation.

What made me dismiss the theory out of hand is when he totally dismisses the single panel cartooon as not being comics. Which means a whole school of writers and artists can't join the comics club.

On top of that, the sequential argument imposes a prosaicism on the art form. There is a lot of literature and art which is not sequential--which is non sequitur, which is abstract. If somebody has to make one panel dependent on another for its meaning--then we're in real trouble. It means that comics have to be mundane to still be considered comics, where other arts can be really unconventional if they want to be yet their practitioners still qualify for club membership.

[paw broon]

Yes, sometimes when newspaper strips are collected into comics, they don't look right and that's because they are often re-sized, cut and/or have panels taken out or shifted around.  A common complaint of early Frew Phantom comics.  Here, Pocket Libraries took newspaper strips such as Lesley Shane, Buck Ryan and Rip Kirby and did exactly that to them.
Yes, again, JVJ has told me that a couple of times. If you can find some Rip Kirby or Scorchy Smith, they are well worth a read.  But even though I'm a huge Rip Kirby fan, I'd suggest Jeff Hawke and Garth as giants of newspaper strips.
I'll go off and consider jimmm's last post.

[narfstar]

The GCD is flexible on sequential and comic. They do accept single panel comics such as Dennis the Menace. There just have to be some criteria. One reason is that children's books are not to be added or coloring books unless they are sequential.

[jimmm kelly]

I understand why the GCD has their own rules. They have to have some limits. As it is, the GCD has set for itself an impossible task of cataloguing every comic book (within their definition of a comic book). If they didn't impose some limits, there would just be a flood of other publications and it would get out of hand pretty quick.

McCloud's theory is a little different from the GCD's pragmatism. McCloud imposes a system that ends up excluding those single panel comics, but yet allows in the so-called digital comics. If the GCD followed that system, they would have to include every kind of digital comic that is out there, while excluding a lot of the early comics.

[narfstar]

Print on demand has blurred the line. According to GCD rules if it is available as POD, which essentially every digital is, it can be included in the GCD if we know that someone has had it printed. Of course which books have ever been printed is hard to determine, so it is basically when one ends up in the hands of an indexer that it gets included.

[mr_goldenage]

Ok...I'll grant you all your points. So is there an issue with the upload? Is Fulmine Mascherato not acceptable? As far as I know it is a PD comic. Just curious since I uploaded it a few days ago. Let me know.

Richard

[narfstar]

If it is not showing up you must not have hit confirm because it should show up right away

[mr_goldenage]

O I am sure that is quite possible that it was a 3 AM insomnia scan/uploads. I am sure I remember thanks for adding it to the database and it is very possible I went to bed after that (and I was probably in a less than lucid state at that time of the morning as well) presuming that I'd done everything. So now what Narf? Let me know my friend.

Richard

[mr_goldenage]

Gim Toro N.-44 "L' Infame Tradimento" Collana Juventus serie gialla 1947. From Italy's Golden Age. Just uploaded in the Italian Language Section.

Richard.

Attachment: Maschera Rossa along with his partner Il Cappa Rosso Italy 1936. Their version of the Clock?

[mr_goldenage]

Simbar N.-01 "L' Impronta Mortale" from November 6th 1949 Italy's Golden Age. Now uploaded and can soon be found in the Italian Language Section.

Richard

[mr_goldenage]

Plutos N.-01 "Allarme Nella Notte" 1949. Intro Plutos asstant Lulu. Italy's Goldenage uploaded and should be available soon. Enjoy.

Richard

[mr_goldenage]

Guistiziere Scarlatto N.-01 "Lotta Nelle Tenebre" November 1st 1947 Italy's Golden Age. Brought to you by Mr Goldenage. Just arrived in the mail today all 24 issues of Guistiziere Scarlatto so I thought I'd scan issue 1 for you all to get a feel for the strip. Now some may say Phantom rip-off and say what you will but stay tuned I think you will see this go in a different direction. Either way enjoy, Our Scarlet Executioner can be found in the Italian Language Section.

Richard

[mr_goldenage]

Ipnos N.-07 "La Vendetta Del Drago" December 1st 1946 Italy's Golden Age. A Magician that can change his shape into different animals and objects. And can be found in the Italian Language Section.

Richard

[mr_goldenage]

So..what would you like to see? I will only have time for 1 maybe two books this week. Here are your choices:

1) One of the last two Piccola Mascherato stories
2) Simbar # 2 of 14
3) Plutos # 2 of 33
4) Guistiziere Scarlatto # 2 of 24

Pick one and the one that gets the most votes wins. vote quickly now....

RB @ home

[narfstar]

Plutos

[mr_goldenage]

Frisco Bill N.-07 - Italian Fumetti: 9 pages only + front cover in color (missing IBC & BC). however it is in English. Awaiting approval.

RB

[narfstar]

As an admin yours are automatically approved it just takes awhile to show up