[Palooka slim]

hello,i was wondering if any of the downloadfiles  are from comics that were sited in werthams book seduction of the innocent.

[boox909]

hello,i was wondering if any of the downloadfiles  are from comics that were sited in werthams book seduction of the innocent.

Obviously DC/Marvel material would not be present, but yours is a great question! You could do a search on the download site and compare the list ... it certainly would be interesting to see the results.

B. 

[phabox]

Not sure about Timely/Atla but I would,nt have thought there would have been that much DC Material that would have upset the "Dreaded Doc" apart from a few Wonder Woman bondage shots and Bruce and Dick together in their nightclothes.

The Doc also believed Superman to be the embodyment of the nazi ideal but don't recall him picking out any particular stories.


-Nigel

[John C]

Well, DC was proactive.  Dating back to the early days of All-American, they created advisory boards and codes of conduct.  In fact, I've heard that the ACMP and later CCA codes were almost word for word copies of the DC version of the document.

Makes you wonder if Wertham was on DC's payroll, doesn't it?  EC is draining away DC's business with their horror titles, and along comes Wertham to cast doubt on the entire industry, and the only thing that can save them is the precise self-censorship rules that DC was using, and just happen to explicitly ban every practice commonly used at EC...

I don't actually believe it, but it could certainly look suspicious from that perspective.

As for what books are here, I'm sure someone has published a list of Wertham-cited books on a webpage, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

[phabox]

 Doc W in DC's pocket ?

now THERE'S a thought  !!!

but as noted previously ALL three of DC's biggest stars ( and the only one's to survive until the Silver Age unaltered) recieved the Docs unwellcome attention so that would IMO cast some doubt on the idea.


What about Dell Comics ?

They were so 'clean' that the lasted well into the 60's even WITHOUT the CCA stamp !

-Nigel

[Lefisc]

It is VERY unlikely that Wertham was in DC pockets.

DC suffered greatly by the entire Comics Code event in many ways. Bunched with other comics, they lost a huge amount of sales. Although Superman was on the, air, it would take a full decade before Hollywood would come back to comics for TV (Batman) or radio shows.

Comic Book Licensing fell dramatically, and this, of course affected DC. Mostly, however, advertisers fled comic books. A 1961 article in the business section of the NY Times states: "Even National Periodical,
Superman

[rez]

Thanks for the data Lefisc.

[Palooka slim]

O.K. i finally found a partial list of comics which were used in seduction of the innocent.

ALL FAMOUS CRIME-13
ALL TOP-14
BEWARE-6,12,27
BEYOND-27
BLACK CAT-27
BLACK CAT MYSTERY-36,39
BLUE BEETLE-54,56
CAPTAIN VIDEO-2
CHAMBER OF CHILLS-7
CRIME AND PUNISHMENT-3,59
CRIME CLINIC-3
CRIME DOES NOT PAY-63,64
CRIME SMASHER-1
CRIMES BY WOMEN-3,10
DYNAMIC COMICS-17
EERIE ADVENTURES-1
EXPOSED-1
FAMOUS CRIME-1
HAUNT OF FEAR-17,19,23
JOURNEY INTO FEAR-15
KILLERS-1
MEET CORLISS ARCHER-1,2,3
MYSTERIOUS ADVENTURES-11
PHANTOM LADY-17
RED SEAL COMICS-16
RULAH JUNGLE GODDESS-21,22
SHOCK SUSPENSE-4
SPOOK-24
WEIRD FANTASY-16
WEIRD MYSTERIES-7
WEIRD SCIENCE-19
WOMEN OUTLAWS-1
WONDER WOMAN-49
ZOOT-14
WEB OF EVIL-1
I expected more E.C.comics?

[oldcharacter]

I just found a link to a list of them and was searching for a place to post this:

http://www.stwallskull.com/blog/?page_id=2453

GAC is listed on the thank you note iin the end.

[Yoc]

Fantastic link!  Thanks very much OC!

[shipshape]

I had forgotten about that book. Makes one wonder what drove him to write the book in the first place. I wonder what his motives were. I wonder if he had a hidden agenda or something.

[John C]

I once, not so seriously, suggested the possibility that DC used him to cement most of the failing industry under their control.  There's no evidence of that, of course, and quite a bit against it, but I do find it interesting that the most significant result of the book was the destruction of EC (which was founded by a former "family" member and had some ideas that could've given DC a run for its money) and the institution of the Comics Code, a set of rules nearly identical to DC's in-house conduct rules.

I don't really believe it, but it's an amusing idea.

Mostly, I think Wertham just interviewed a bunch of delinquents, found that they read lots of comic books, and decided that must be the problem.  Later generations would blame rock music, roleplaying games, video games, and texting.

It amounts to the same thing, though:  Lots of kids like all these things.  And while some of it might be inappropriate for children, it's easier to see the correlation as a cause to be fought.  Otherwise, we'd have to face the possibility that it's society's job to educate children in morality and that delinquents represent our failure rather than an insidious outside influence.

[oldcharacter]

Whenever I see articles about Wertham I think..."what kind of drug was this old timer on?  to come up with this kind of thoughts!" And you see, psychiatrists have made mistakes in the past, check out this link:
http://www.pharmacytechs.net/blog/old-school-medicine-ads



Later!

[Roygbiv666]

When I was a kid, I thought Wertham was E-V-I-L what with the trying to "kill comics". I always wanted to get ahold of the book [SOTI] and I finally did - couldn't get past the first few chapters and put it aside. Maybe I'll pick it up again to get a take on HIS psychology. Or not.

[darkmark]

I don't agree with all of Wertham's takes on things but I do agree with him on one thing:  many comics of the early Fifties were too far out there in gore and violence (I feel about the same re: a lot of books nowadays).  If you were living before the late Sixties you know what a moral / Christian nation America used to be, and stuff like "Foul Play" was too much of an offense to it.  I've said it before and I'll say it again:  EC was just begging for censorship and they got what they deserved.  They weren't taken down for "Master Race", MAD, or the Kurtzman war books.  They went down because of stuff like playing baseball with a bad guy's guts.

[narfstar]

Can't say that I disagree DM. I think the affects of comics were negligable but just look how far down we have slid. I wish Hollywood had remained censored. I have no problem with what people watch in private. Stag films have been around since they have had film. But they were not so easily accessible. You can not tell me that Hollywood is not the reason that the F word has almost become a word people would use in church and probably soon will. I used it a lot when I was a teen before I became a Christian.  A lot of people did. But it was not something used in polite conversation or "mixed company". Now because of it being used as an everyday word in movies it has become an everyday word OK to be used in public. I think that many TV shows have been a big contributing factor in today's youth thinking lying is OK. Just look at how many sitcoms actually glorify it.

[Drusilla lives!]

...  EC was just begging for censorship and they got what they deserved.  They weren't taken down for "Master Race", MAD, or the Kurtzman war books.  They went down because of stuff like playing baseball with a bad guy's guts.

I think you're way off, but you're entitled to your opinion.  Poor judgement as to what to put to print didn't start with EC, nor did it end with them either... and I've seen some really questionable material from others of the period, but no one brings up those other companies, just EC.  I personally think this is due to the unfortunate decision on the part of Bill Gaines to testify at the senate hearings.  If he hadn't, I don't think anyone would really remember EC Comics... except for the outstanding artwork and superb writing.

[Yoc]

Well said Drusilla.
Anyone that cares to dig into the non-EC precode horror stuff from say Key or Superior can see how nasty others could also get in their books.
But Gaines certainly put himself in the cross-hairs with his testimony.  It also doesn't hurt that EC has a cult following and have been reprinted a few times either.  Almost nobody but a member of GAC here would have had a chance to see the non-EC precode horror titles that were also the target of the mass hysteria at the time.

-Yoc

[narfstar]

I agree EC is often singled out the most even though it was not the worst. It's prominance in the minds of comic collectors could be responsible for that. As a kid I used to buy the Black and White Key and Superior reprints because they were so gory, etc some worse than EC.

[John C]

While I'm not fond of entertainment that "pushes the envelope" just for the sake of "getting away with" being racy or cursing, I also think it can be and occasionally is done well and for the purpose of telling a good story.  George Carlin (especially) and the South Park team have done great jobs of USING obscenity to get a point across.  I'm also sure there's a compelling story to be told that involves or even centers around group sex or brutal, graphic murders, though I can't say I've ever seen such a thing.

I also strongly believe that anybody who might take their social cues or life lessons from Quentin Tarantino, Adam Sandler, South Park, or Batman is pretty dang misguided to begin with, and we really can't blame their deviant behaviors on their choice of entertainment.

My biggest objections to such things are that (a) it's a waste of my time, because I already have a pretty good idea what naked women and/or intestines look like, and (b) especially in discussion, if you don't have enough to say that you're padding it out with profanity and dubious stories about sex or race, you sound like a complete idiot who doesn't have anything to contribute.

That all out of my system, I agree with Darkmark.  While the other companies were often as bad or worse, Gaines certainly knew what was brewing, pushed his line even further, then tried to argue that it wasn't SO bad because, hey, they could've done far nastier things.  If that isn't "asking for it," I don't know what is.

I mean, imagine accelerating as you enter a speed zone.  Then, when you get pulled over, arguing with the cop about the ticket because, after all, you could have floored it and aimed for the woman pushing the stroller.

[misappear]

This is a great observation: "Lots of kids like all these things.  And while some of it might be inappropriate for children, it's easier to see the correlation as a cause to be fought.  Otherwise, we'd have to face the possibility that it's society's job to educate children in morality and that delinquents represent our failure rather than an insidious outside influence." 

John C makes the point that if we're tuned into what the kids are doing, check what they're playing, and minitor what they're reading, then we might actually be educating them correctly.  Seems simple enough, but the implications are staggering. 

Don't have children unless you are willing to commit to real parenting.  Is the regular cycle to have a child, chuck him in day care, and return to work?  It seems to be.  That strikes me as the routine of a very self-centered and selfish society. 

[cimmerian32]

Unfortunately, I think it is more indicative of the financial reality of today's world.  Very few families can survive on only one income, and very few jobs are conducive to child-rearing...  The child has to have supervision, the parents have to work...  where is a happy medium?  Hopefully, in a competent daycare and a LOT of attention when the parents are actually around the children.  The problem comes in when the parents spend their downtime doing their thing, and letting the TV babysit...

[Yoc]

Ah TV - now there's the real problem...  LOL
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

From dice - to pool halls - to comic strips - to comic books - to pinball machines - to movies - to tv - to video games - to Harry Potter to...   society has always wanted a scapegoat for their failures at proper parenting.

"Kids today...."

[oldcharacter]

Even though I haven't read many of those violent crime stuff, looking at it I think many of them may have been done to boost sales for the companies and get them some extra cash by making horrifing stuff to shock and sell for their sensationalism. LIke these cheap tabloids which sells just because it has something about Michael Jackson.

Here's an interesting video extracted from the great documentary "Comic Book Confidential":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI1L-yAD6X0&feature=player_profilepage

Later!

[Drusilla lives!]

... That all out of my system, I agree with Darkmark.  While the other companies were often as bad or worse, Gaines certainly knew what was brewing, pushed his line even further, then tried to argue that it wasn't SO bad because, hey, they could've done far nastier things.  If that isn't "asking for it," I don't know what is.

I mean, imagine accelerating as you enter a speed zone.  Then, when you get pulled over, arguing with the cop about the ticket because, after all, you could have floored it and aimed for the woman pushing the stroller.

As I said, IMO EC didn't do anything that anyone else didn't do... they just had some of the best talent to do it with.  Every publisher "knew what was brewing" but none of them stopped either, and to blame one company or one person is not really fair.  Personally I've always suspected that they were singled out.  They were indeed singled out for MAD, Shock and the Kurtzman war books... and especially for stories like "Master Race."  But that's just my opinion.