[Palooka slim]

Dynamite has started a series using public domain heroes from golden age,among them DAREDEVIL,BLACK TERROR,GREEN LLAMA,FIGHTING YANK.anybody read any of these books? ive been tempted to try an issue,but im sure they have twisted these characters beyond reconigtion.

[Palooka slim]

.......also curious about dynamites lone ranger series if anybody has read em? are they any good?

[rez]

They look pretty full for a young company. Wonder who's running the show behind the scenes.

Dynamite has started a series using public domain heroes from golden age,among them DAREDEVIL,BLACK TERROR,GREEN LLAMA,FIGHTING YANK.anybody read any of these books? ive been tempted to try an issue,but im sure they have twisted these characters beyond reconigtion.

[John C]

Dynamite has started a series using public domain heroes from golden age,among them DAREDEVIL,BLACK TERROR,GREEN LLAMA,FIGHTING YANK.anybody read any of these books? ive been tempted to try an issue,but im sure they have twisted these characters beyond reconigtion.

It's...unpleasant, at least for me.  Outline:  Heroes all "died" in 1945 because they were betrayed by a patriotic hero.  Remaining heroes are fascists.  Now the old heroes are back and they fight each other more than the presumed villains.

Bad designs, awful dialogue, implausible setups, and little to no reseach on the original characters (probably relying exclusively on Wikipedia) riddle the entire thing.

While I'm not saying that nobody should give it a try, even if they're curious, I AM saying that it feels more like it was published in the 1990s than the 1940s.  If, for example, you enjoyed "Reign of the Superman" or "Knightfall" over at DC, then you'll probably enjoy Superpowers.  If you're looking to see the characters in action, I think you're better off downloading something by the original writers and artists.  Or read the collected edition when it comes out.

[Palooka slim]

yea,thats what i expected its gotta be grim or it aint "real" what crap! and of course the patriotic hero would be the judas, how original.modern comics make me wanna puke!

[John C]

I agree.  It was all cliched when Watchmen was published, and two decades later, I'm still to believe that all people are inherently selfish and nasty, and anybody who believes in something is inherently flawed and smarmy.  And it takes a year and about fifty bucks to read the "story," such as it is.

And the people in charge wonder why the sales numbers are declining.

[darkmark]

The problem is that too many of the writers are too-far-leftists who don't believe in heroes.  And they're the people we put to writing them?  Better Mark Waid or Kurt Busiek had been on this story.

[John C]

I don't know...while Waid and Busiek seem to average better than the usual rank-and-file Robinsons and Rosses, even their heroes seem more like gang leaders than heroes, with the increasing shift towards "protecting the family" (literal, in the case of the revived Flash series), and more often than not, the day is saved accidentally, rather than through the foresight and hard work of the hero.  Their form of deconstruction is usually more palatable, but I don't find it any better for the industry.

I really wish someone would wake the writers up to the fact that not every story should be in the Alan Moore, Frank Miller, or Marv Wolfman mode.  It doesn't always have to be a "new take," doesn't have to be about "fixing continuity," and is acceptable if it showcases heroes who are nice guys who think things through without looking like dolts.

Eh.  "When I rule the world," right?

[Palooka slim]

The problem is that too many of the writers are too-far-leftists who don't believe in heroes. 

EXCATLY! speaking of lefties,dc fired Chuck Dixon one of the few "right" comic writers in the industry.coincidence?

[darkmark]

I wouldn't be the one to say DC fired Dixon because of his politics.  Remember, he worked for Eclipse at first, and if they weren't lefties, I don't know who was. ;-)

[Palooka slim]

I wouldn't be the one to say DC fired Dixon because of his politics.  Remember, he worked for Eclipse at first, and if they weren't lefties, I don't know who was. ;-)

yea,im sure your right but people are so dogmatic these days you never know.

[John C]

I haven't read any insider information from DC, but it sounds more to me like they might've canned him simply because he was trying to write stuff that didn't interest the editors at the time.  He was, as I recall, looking to turn the Blue Beetle into a major franchise, including handing the role (temporarily) to Tim Drake.  There are a few stories along those lines, where he was campaigning to take some forgotten property and turn it into something viable.

It could very well be that people like Didio were unimpressed with revitalizing anyone not of "The Big Three."  In the current regime, minor characters can only be rebooted as other minor characters.

It's politics, to be sure, just the kind that's a little more interesting than the current "welfare state or police state" choice.  Aw, did I just say that out loud?  Oops.

[Lanfeust]

Alex Ross said in an interview that he lacked reprints such as Image's (were they finally released?) to prepare Project Superpowers. He said also that he intended to use the characters as archetypes.

As for "too-far-leftists" writers, I would say that writing and politics are two different things. I don't care as long as the writing's good.

More, were all Golden Age characters that interesting in themselves? I'm not really sure. Many of them could easily be replaced by others without making any changes. Alex Ross and Dynamite had to modify slightly the characters, to trademark them as well as serving the story - which is parabolic.

Like it or not, Alex Ross does what he wants to. If you don't like it and would rather read something closer to the 40's, there's Next Issue Project. Having multiple takes on PD characters does not restrain them to only one vision.

[John C]

Alex Ross said in an interview that he lacked reprints such as Image's (were they finally released?) to prepare Project Superpowers. He said also that he intended to use the characters as archetypes.

More, were all Golden Age characters that interesting in themselves? I'm not really sure. Many of them could easily be replaced by others without making any changes.

I have to admit that (and I'm not trying to bait you, here, just stating my position--feel free to ignore me) I always find these two arguments to be the most obnoxious things a writer can ever say.  They translate to "we didn't bother doing any research because we assume that the writers before us were lousy."

Even if it's a true assumption (and I doubt it is in this case, with the traffic this site gets), then what kind of idiot builds a story around uninteresting characters and expects success?

And Next Issue actually wasn't much better.  Despite all the press to the contrary, it was more about mocking the Golden Age than revisiting it.  It's not that I'm unhappy that writers and artists are bringing these characters to light "wrong."  I really don't care about that any more than I care that Hal Jordan is written "wrong" by Geoff Johns.  But I definitely don't like the consistent implication that the old books aren't worth reading unless they've been recently reprinted by a major company.

[boox909]

Alex Ross said in an interview that he lacked reprints such as Image's (were they finally released?) to prepare Project Superpowers. He said also that he intended to use the characters as archetypes.

More, were all Golden Age characters that interesting in themselves? I'm not really sure. Many of them could easily be replaced by others without making any changes.

I have to admit that (and I'm not trying to bait you, here, just stating my position--feel free to ignore me) I always find these two arguments to be the most obnoxious things a writer can ever say.  They translate to "we didn't bother doing any research because we assume that the writers before us were lousy."

Even if it's a true assumption (and I doubt it is in this case, with the traffic this site gets), then what kind of idiot builds a story around uninteresting characters and expects success?

And Next Issue actually wasn't much better.  Despite all the press to the contrary, it was more about mocking the Golden Age than revisiting it.  It's not that I'm unhappy that writers and artists are bringing these characters to light "wrong."  I really don't care about that any more than I care that Hal Jordan is written "wrong" by Geoff Johns.  But I definitely don't like the consistent implication that the old books aren't worth reading unless they've been recently reprinted by a major company.

Other than the suggestion of voting with my dollars, I respectfully disagree with Lanfeust's apologetic defense of Project Supertradesmarkgrab -- I am with jcolag on this matter.  Wrong is wrong -- lazy is lazy -- and given that GA-UK is one of the better known resources for Golden Age comics, Mr. Ross has no viable excuse for being wrong other than some form of hubris. I congratulate Mr. Ross. I do. I like his art. I am assured that his Project Supertrademarksgrab (and its spin offs) will continue to sell; however, I think that it will not sell to a longterm audience.

B.

[Palooka slim]

As for "too-far-leftists" writers, I would say that writing and politics are two different things. I don't care as long as the writing's good.

You miss the point,i dont care about a writers politics either...until they decide to espouse their views in my favorite art form .And to take an established character and write him or her in a totally opposite direction of decades of characterization(Captain America as a selfloathing "blame America " whiner comes to mind).Is disrepecting to the creators of these characters  and tends to show a certain amount of disdain of  the characters themselves.I have not read superpowers so i cannot comment on those books,but i suspected that these characters would be written with no respect for what they originally represented because this is the nature of comics today.I would speculate there are many comic fans like me who have been alienated by the one sided leftist views which permeate the medium.Its does not make good business sense to alienate half of your readership! Why would i As a conservative want to read a book that portrays right thinkers as evil dumb racist sexist? I get enough of that from the media.

[bchat]

You know, Alex Ross isn't the guy that got "Project Superpowers" going, it was Nick Barrucci,, and yet Ross seems to be the one that everyone here wants to blast.  He was brought in, along with his sidekick Jim Krueger, to help Dynamite Ent develope the concept further after they already had a rough idea of what they wanted to achieve, and to give the title a big name to attach to the series.

Lanfeust: Alex Ross said in an interview that he lacked reprints such as Image's (were they finally released?) to prepare Project Superpowers. He said also that he intended to use the characters as archetypes. .... Alex Ross and Dynamite had to modify slightly the characters, to trademark them as well as serving the story

Can you please point me to the interview you're referring to here, because I never saw Alex Ross say that in anything I've read so far about this series.  In fact, Ross and Krueger have hinted that they want to reference some of the old stories.  And Dynamite didn't have to modify the look of the characters to Trademark them.  Daredevil's look wasn't changed at all, neither was Pyroman, Flame, The Arrow, Face, V-Man, Hydroman or The Owl.  

jcolag: what kind of idiot builds a story around uninteresting characters and expects success?

Is it safe to assume that you are interpreting the line from Lanfeust ("were all Golden Age characters that interesting in themselves?") as him quoting Alex Ross?  Because he isn't.  Ross never said that.  In fact, based on the fact that he seems to be continuing his involvement in the Superpowers line, that he likes the Golden Age characters, Black Terror in particular.

Outline:  Heroes all "died" in 1945 because they were betrayed by a patriotic hero.  Remaining heroes are fascists.  Now the old heroes are back and they fight each other more than the presumed villains.

That's an interesting summary.  Here's another:

The Fighting Yank, misguided by his ghostly ancestor, used "Pandora's Box" (actually an urn and not a box, and yes they explain that in issue 0) to trap the heroes of the Golden Age to "save the world from evil".  Eventually, he is convinced of his mistake and seeks to redeem himself.  The trapped heroes are freed but appear in different locations around the world (not explained exactly why that is but it's only a comic so who cares).  Now, they are slowly working their way back together as a group.  Dynamic Man and the whole "Dynamic Family" are the villians of the story, using the "Crusaders" to hunt down the freed heroes.

The book's been fun to read and I don't regret spending money on it.  I'm also happy to hear that it's been a big enough success to spawn three more titles plus another "Project: Superpowers" series later on down the road.

jcolag: ... I think that it will not sell to a longterm audience

Depends on how the line is handled by Dynamite longterm.  As long as they continue to have half-decent talent working on the books and don't do anything stupid with the characters, there's no reason it couldn't run forever.  Obviously in today's comic shops it's hard to get people to try new books with relatively unknown characters (assuming the majority of comic readers haven't been exposed to Golden Age heroes ... which is likely).  Having someone like Alex Ross involved and doing the covers is a smart move, as it brings visibility to something that could have been as popular as month-old bread.  When he decides to call it quits (which might be a long time since he seems to really enjoy the whole thing), hopefully the line will have enough of a fan base at that point that his absence won't matter, OR they'll be able to find someone else to bring additional visibility to the titles for a boost.  On their own, characters such as Black Terror, Target and Daredevil have proven that they can sustain long-running titles, so there's no reason that can't be the case again.

It puzzles me how quickly so many people (not just here but on other boards as well) are so quick to dismiss this series (without even checking it out in most cases) simply because the characters are "updated".  I can't think of one character still published today that was around in the Golden Age of Comics that hasn't been updated over the years, and yet that's not a problem but what Dynamite is doing with these characters is?  I don't get it and I hope I never start thinking like that.

[Lanfeust]

Well, I didn't know how much was this series unappreciated in here. Now I know.

So to precise things: I was referring to an interview Alex Ross did for French magazine Comic Box issue 50. I must add that I relied on my own memory, which isn't the most accurate, so I'm gonna translate the excerpts about Project Superpowers:

"We have copyrighted anew these characters. That's something you can do in the US by slightly modifying PD characters. That means that Dark Horse - which is to release a Green Lama anthology collecting the original material from the 40's - theoretically has to ask Dynamite for their authorisation. (...) That's something that interests me as a reader! Those episodes were very hard to find. If I had them when I started working on PS, they would have been helpful!" (I hope I didn't make mistakes in it, I'm kinda sleepy tonight and didn't use my dictionary)

As for the archetypes, I may have read it elsewhere - or not. Surely mixed up with another thing, sorry guys. All that's in is :

"-Will you be using metaphors or ellipses on nowadays subjects?
-Allegories only. The choices of PS heroes already are. We have picked up heroes from the wide world. Some interpretations of them will reflect America as it is today. For example, I really wanted one Muslim character."

Now, concerning Image's Next Issue Project, I haven't read these comics at all. My guess was they could have been something that would suit GA fans better. Seems I was wrong. And remember I'm still not really familiar with Golden Age comics and that all the superhero stories I read from the site seemed rather generic for me (haven't read all the scans yet, only a small part outside horror stories which I like better, but I intend to do that as soon as I can). I didn't say they were not worth reading - if so, I wouldn't have posted the link to this site on my forums.

[bchat]

We have copyrighted anew these characters. That's something you can do in the US by slightly modifying PD characters. That means that Dark Horse - which is to release a Green Lama anthology collecting the original material from the 40's - theoretically has to ask Dynamite for their authorisation.

You can't copyright material in the Public Domain, you can only copyright new material you've created (as Dynamite is doing with Project Superpowers series), so the line about renewing the copyright on the characters is inaccurate.  They've Trademarked some of the names (for promotional purposes and possible new ongoing series, like what's happened with "Black Terror"), and "Green Lama" is one of those Trademarks.  That's where Dark Horse (and anyone else) would have a problem, as they would need permission from Dynamite to use the "Green Lama" name on the cover and in solicitations to sell the anthology, but they don't need permission to reprint those stories since there are and always will be Public Domain.  Without cooperation from Dynamite on the use of the "Green Lama" name, Dark Horse would have to find another name to use in selling the book.  I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for Dark Horse since Dynamite so far hasn't come across as being unwilling to work with other companies.  Besides, it's good for Dynamite anyway, since the more people are exposed to the Green Lama character, the more interest those same people might have in Dynamite's version of the character, hopefully boosting sales.  That's the odd benefit of multiple companies using the same Public Domain characters, in that the more stuff that's out there, the greater the chance that the average comic reader becomes familiar enough with those characters to give one of the books a chance.  Hey, if Spidey, Superman, The X-Men and Batman can support multiple titles, there's no good reason why someone like Black Terror or The Arrow or team after team of Public Domain heroes can't as well.

[Lanfeust]

I've only translated what I read, so maybe Fabrice Sapolsky's translation to French was inaccurate from the start (Comic Box's staff always works in a rush). It seemed weird for me but I assumed that was mostly wrong as these characters also appeared in Next Issue Project, Terra Obscura and Femforce. So yes, I finally understood that the names have been trademarked, but it seems different from European legislation - which is already hard to understand for me and gave me a hard time when I was looking for French PD resources.

[John C]

You know, Alex Ross isn't the guy that got "Project Superpowers" going, it was Nick Barrucci,, and yet Ross seems to be the one that everyone here wants to blast.

Ross is the only one out there talking about it incessantly, and the story is exactly like every other story he's been involved in, so...I'm going to say it's an easy mistake to make.  If you'd rather I say that "Barrucci's idea is stupid" instead of "Ross's idea is stupid," I'll see what I can do.

jcolag: what kind of idiot builds a story around uninteresting characters and expects success?

Is it safe to assume that you are interpreting the line from Lanfeust ("were all Golden Age characters that interesting in themselves?") as him quoting Alex Ross?  Because he isn't.  Ross never said that.  In fact, based on the fact that he seems to be continuing his involvement in the Superpowers line, that he likes the Golden Age characters, Black Terror in particular.

Yes and no.  I didn't assume the words came from Ross's mouth, pen, or keyboard as is, but they're certainly representative of what he and every other modern writer have said about the Golden Age books.  The phrase "blank slate" never fails to appear, and "archetype" always seems to be code for "we wrote this story with generic characters ten years ago and are substituting whoever it is we licensed."

And he likes the Black Terror's LOOK, not the character.  Otherwise he might have used the character as he appeared instead of turning him into a pirate.

Outline:  Heroes all "died" in 1945 because they were betrayed by a patriotic hero.  Remaining heroes are fascists.  Now the old heroes are back and they fight each other more than the presumed villains.

That's an interesting summary.  Here's another:

I stand by my version as more evocative, if slightly less precise.  Because what you've described is twelve issues of a guided tour, not story...which is what I see the book quickly becoming.  "Over on your right, you'll see the Scarab, who looks a little like the Blue Beetle, sort of, but certainly isn't, because we at Dynamite don't know trademarks from copyrights."

It puzzles me how quickly so many people (not just here but on other boards as well) are so quick to dismiss this series (without even checking it out in most cases) simply because the characters are "updated".

Eh.  It puzzles me how you're able to have obviously read what I said, and yet have your attack completely misinterpret me based on some "other boards."  I read it.  I thought it was garbage.  It's overwritten with trying-to-be-hip dialogue, a lack of understanding of the characters it claims to be returning (not reinventing) in addition to the Golden Age itself, and a trite, uninteresting "collect'em all" excuse for a plot.

In fact, as I originally said, if you like stuff published in the '90s, this will resonate.  It pulls exactly the same strings that "Reign of the Supermen" and "Knightfall" did at DC, and pulls those strings relatively well.  I thought those stories were decent at the time, so I still see the good points, but I don't like them now for the overall message.

I can't think of one character still published today that was around in the Golden Age of Comics that hasn't been updated over the years, and yet that's not a problem but what Dynamite is doing with these characters is?  I don't get it and I hope I never start thinking like that.

This isn't, to me at least, a matter of "updating."  It's a matter of, first, telling a good story if you're going to engage an audience over the course of a year, and respecting the people whose work your building on.  Talking "archetypes" and "blank slates" (and blatantly not doing research) is lazy, and laziness shows through to the lack of story.

"Let's look at what's happening in...oh, how about Argentina?  OK, so in Argentina...we have two superheroes!  Ack!  Crusaders!  Run, heroes!!"  I'm not going to tell anybody they're wrong for disliking it--it has a bit to recommend it--but I'm certainly not going to pretend it's any better than it is when people ask for opinions on it.

(Edit:  I didn't touch any of the text, but the quoting came out all weird, so I fixed it.  Hopefully, this doesn't bump the thread, which I'm happy to let die.  Because what we learned is that some people like the story and some people don't.  Shock.)

[bchat]

If you'd rather I say that "Barrucci's idea is stupid" instead of "Ross's idea is stupid," I'll see what I can do

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, so if you think the book is stupid, then that's the way it is.  I like it and it's my favorite comic at the moment.  It's certainly more interesting than anything Marvel, DC or Image is doing and it IS the only comic I'm currently buying.

he likes the Black Terror's LOOK, not the character.  Otherwise he might have used the character as he appeared instead of turning him into a pirate

Again, I like what has been done with the Black Terror in "PS".  I also enjoy the Golden Age stories I've found all over the net.  I have no preference for "one or the other" because both versions are fun to read.

Over on your right, you'll see the Scarab, who looks a little like the Blue Beetle, sort of, but certainly isn't, because we at Dynamite don't know trademarks from copyrights

Actually, they do know Copyrights from Trademarks.  The Fox version of Blue Beetle is in the Public Domain, but the name is Trademarked by DC.  Scarab is also in the Public Domain, and at the time, the name was Trademark-free.  Obviously, DE wanted to use The Beetle but legally couldn't call him that, so they used the name "Scarab" instead, causing confusion amoung many people who assumed DE's Scarab was based off the Nedor character.  I see nothing wrong with doing that.

It puzzles me how you're able to have obviously read what I said, and yet have your attack completely misinterpret me based on some "other boards."

That's because I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about "people (not just here but on other boards as well)".  Not everything I type is going to revolve around you and what you say.

And I'm not "attacking" anyone and I hardly ever do.  I'm just stating my opinion and responding to comments made by you and others.

[misappear]

It seems that these "funny books" can still raise our passions, no?

I read a couple of issues of the Dynamite stuff and decided that there wasn't enough gripping storytelling for my tastes, so that's that and time to move on.  We all have our distinct taste buds.  There are some folks I've met who simply salivate over the prospect of a revival of Golden Age heroes, (remembering All-Star Squadron, and even Shazam before it.)  It's the way they are wired.  Personally, I always thought most of the GA characters were derivative and one-dimensional platforms for some publisher to attempt to grab market share.  Superman, Batman, and the other "biggies" survived, I think, because the basic concepts were so strong, with conflict built right into those backstories.   

I have often thought that a talented writer/artist could take the most basic hero concept and make it dazzle.  While I still believe this, I have to consider that some concepts are just easier, more exciting, and offer more potential than others.  Also, I don't have enough working knowledge of the subtleties of the Dynamite characters.  I'm sure not motivated to look that up.  If somebody else is more tapped in, or chooses to find out about these characters, more power to 'em.

One statement I think I can safely make without upsetting the cosmic flow is that the Project Superpowers material is no Watchmen, Astro City, or even Camelot 3000.  It'll take some over-the-top monumental quality to get me interested these days.  Otherwise, it's just another team book for me.  But then, I also don't have a clue as to how seemingly rational people can continue reading Justice League, X-Men, Avengers and the like with all the confusing an inbred crossover stuff that attempts to suck your wallet dry.

If the Dynamite stuff gets your nads raging, more power to ya.

--Dave

[Palooka slim]

Let me just say i never meant to slam Dynamite.Its always good to have other companys out there competing with the big two,and dynamite has some interesting looking books its great to see so many genre books  in thier line up.and any company that brings back lone ranger is o.k. in my book

[BountyHunter]

Well, it's been a while since anybody posted in here.  Anybody still reading P:SP?  I am and I love it!  Chapter 2 is off to a good start, and Dynamite just announced a Ghost mini-series coming in January.

Wheee!