[bchat]

I've seen evidence from different sources that many of the Fawcett titles (including Whiz, Wow, Captain Marvel Adventures and CM JR, to name a few) did have their copyrights renewed at the appropriate times.  "Copyright.gov" lists "CBS Publications" as the owner of the copyright in 1978.  Seeing as how this site is run by a branch of the US government, it comes across as being a more reliable source of information than some fan making-up a list on his own personal site or blog.

So here's what I'm wondering:  When the search for a valid copyright on the Fawcett material was done, was the fact that the company was sold to CBS Pub taken into consideration? 

I read on Wikipedia (the web's least reliable source of information) that Fawcett Publications (Fawcett Comics' parent company) was bought by CBS Publications in 1977, and then again by Random House in 1982, with Captain Marvel and the rest of the superhero lot being sold to DC Comics in 1991.  It looks to me as if the copyrights were properly renewed for those titles (maybe the rest as well?) and the stories would now be the property of DC so shouldn't those books not be here?

I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but I don't want to see this site get shut down because somebody assumed a book was Public Domain when it isn't.

[John C]

The copyright of what?  Individual issues are copyrighted, not titles.  So whatever they renewed belonged to CBS on purchase.  Whatever wasn't didn't.

[narfstar]

I think this has to do with the old Shazam Saturday morning TV series.  They bought the rights to use the trademark character.

[bchat]

The copyright of what?  Individual issues are copyrighted, not titles.

I was assuming that I didn't need to clarify that statement .... I guess I was wrong.  If you want a full list of the ISSUES of the TITLES I'm talking about, go to www.copyright.gov and do a search, because I'm not spending that much time listing every single issue that turns-up in the results.  Keep in mind that the site only includes results from 1978 to present, so copyrights renewed from 1977 on back won't appear (the bulk of Fawcett's comic output).

I think this has to do with the old Shazam Saturday morning TV series.  They bought the rights to use the trademark character.

No, I'm talking about the comics' copyrights here, not the trademark for the television show.  Besides, the only thing being trademarked for the tv series was the name "Shazam", not "Captain Marvel", "Whiz Comics", etc.  Plus, they wouldn't have been buying the name "Captain Marvel" from Fawcett anyway, since Marvel Comics owned the trademark on the name at the time, hence it being called "Shazam".

[John C]

Well, if you can't search from 1977 back, then that would be a significant part of Fawcett's output ignored, no?  Copyrights lasted for twenty-eight years, so there could well be issues that aren't under copyright.  Prior to 1978, you need the Catalog of Copyright Entries.

But as I said, Serj has some special rule on Fawcett I don't recall beyond he said "go ahead."  Discussing policy with the policy-makers would probably be more productive than trying to alarm everybody and accusing people of inventing information.

[bchat]

Discussing policy with the policy-makers would probably be more productive than trying to alarm everybody and accusing people of inventing information.

You're right ... sorry.  I should have contacted the proper individuals about this.

[Yoc]

Aussie500 and Serj are out authorities on copyright matters.

[phabox]

  What a bummer if there IS a prob with the Fawcett stuff ( please god no !) the poor sap over at AIBQ has just switched to this and Quality material after getting his butt kicked by DC !

-Nigel

[Yoc]

One would think DC would have been after AIBQ pretty quickly if they did have any problems with Fawcett scans no?  He's on their radar already.

Best wait for comment from Serj or Aussie before getting into a panic.
-Yoc

[Aussie500]

The copyright on all the Captain Marvel related titles is owned by DC, yes Serj who made the decision to allow them is aware of that. l should think the decision had something to do with the copyright infringement battles DC started over the Captain Marvel, which legally they would never have won since there was nothing similar between Captain Marvel and Superman, but Fawcett only being a small publisher could not continue. DC has not complained so it would seem Serj was right. Either way the character is not Public Domain so could not be used comercially by anyone but DC, fans will hopefully be able to read the old comics for free for some time. l doubt very much if any of the old Fawcett comics will be appearing on any DC owned online reading facility in the future, since their ownership of the old titles would be somewhat doubtful.

And considering the online copyright records only show renewals from 1978, which covers the 1950's onwards, they are not going to be a lot of help for looking up most GA copyrights, the lists l use are not fan made, and having access to the actual pages

[John C]

Just to chime in and hopefully ease some concerns, a while back, I did a quick year-by-year check of a few Fawcett titles that interested me for a project (which, if it happens, I'll make sure to update everybody).  I didn't bother to record anything, but the majority of superhero books through the war weren't renewed, and a decent number after the war were ignored as well.

So, should anybody want to do this completely by the book in the future, there is actually a decent Public Domain Fawcett collection to be had.

[kevinryanvt]

I checked into this, and I just wanted to point out that the copyright on Thrill Comics #1 and Flash Comics #1 from Fawcett were not renewed.  The latter two being the ashcans for "Captain Thunder", the prototype of Captain Marvel, and the same story.  Those books should ok for upload.  I expect the reason for this was that as ashcans, Thrill and Flash were overlooked.

[OtherEric]

I have little doubt those books are eligible for the site.  But, as 8 copies of Flash and 3 of Thrill are known to exist I would be somewhat amazed if anybody had a copy they were willing to scan.

[phabox]

Seeing mention of the Fawcett 'ashcan' issues of Flash Comics_001 and Thrill Comics_001 got me wondering about that 'Super Rare Comic'  MOTION PICTURE FUNNIES_001.

First of has this comic ever been scanned, it seems unlikely but I do have scans of not only the front cover but also the back which is what first got me wondering.

More to the point, if it HAS been scanner and became available would it be allowed here ?

Marvel under any other name be it Timely, Atlas, Leading or any of the other names Goodman published under is not acceptable here for obvious reasons.

However Marvel Comics_001 dated October 1939 ( November on some copies) is universally recognized as the VERY FIRST comic book published by the company we know today as Marvel while MPF was on the streets in April of that year so dispite the presance of future Marvel Super Star Prince Namor the Sub-Mariner this one off is NOT a Timely Comic.

so in the very unlikely event of it ever turning up in digital form I  personally can't see any reason why we could'nt host it here.

-Nigel

[rez]

 so in the very unlikely event of it ever turning up in digital form I  personally can't see any reason why we could'nt host it here.

We can only hope that one day all members of comicdom will see the scanner's light...





reflecting off the covers of the newstand comic racks in memory back in the days
as the smell of tabloid hit your nose while you paddled up the walk and thru the door

and your senses started reeling at the thought and excitement of buying new comics

[John C]

I meant to reply to this last night--actually, I did reply, but Firefox 'sploded on me just when I was about to hit "Post."  Gotta love technology.

Anyway, my understanding of things is that ashcans would be fair game.  They were created for the specific purpose of registering it with the Copyright Office, and since it's not a part of any continuing series or really of interest for Intellectual Property, would rarely be renewed when the time came.  If anybody happens to be passing through Washington, DC, it might not be a bad idea to stop by the Library of Congress to see what one's grubby mitts can be lain upon.  Or something.

Now, Motion Picture Funnies, I think, is a different animal entirely.  If memory serves me right (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it was created as a promotional giveaway and then essentially forgotten.  If that's the case, then it might not have been registered with the Copyright Office (that, I don't know how to check) and never really "published," meaning that it's an "Unpublished Work."  The rule for those is the European rule:  Life of the author plus seventy years (or a hundred twenty, if it was corporate owned).

Please don't take this as gospel, though.  I would very much like to be wrong and for Motion Picture Funnies to be fair game.

-

Edit:  Heritage didn't think it was distributed when they sold a copy a couple years back:

http://www.ha.com/common/info/press/default.php?ReleaseID=935

The next thing to do would be to search the Library of Congress records for the book.  If it was registered in 1939, then it was published and therefore has lapsed into the public domain.  If it wasn't registered, then it's unpublished and will be carried into the public domain by flying pigs, so to speak.  I'm trying to figure out the web interface, but it's dizzying and not entirely clear on what it searches...

[phabox]

Thanks for your post it was a goldmine of information and also gave me a few ideas.

This explains the origin of that back page scan I found a while back and makes me think that it's now less likely that the entire comic was scanned after all.

Still all is not lost although given what you said about 'unpublished' copyright rules and this sites policy regarding later reprints its not going to be much benifit to anyone here sadly.

So heres the plan, I may have a crack at putting together my own 'bootleg' digital version of this historic comic as most if not all the material used for it seems to be to hand.

Both front and back covers are accounted for.

the ORIGINAL MPFW version of the Sub-Mariner story was repinted back in the 1970's and although colorised this is easierly restored back to Black and White.

American Ace, another MPFW 'debut' has been reprinted in recent times.

Spy Ring, this was news to me until this morning I did'nt know this was part of the MPFW line up but its another thing that should be available.

Well thats a start although I suspect theres more stuff out there to be rounded up, also it would be helpful to know what kind of page count i'm working to, I have a hunch this was a 36 page book but can't say for sure, GCD is very vague on this landmark comic book.

Anyone out there know any more about this comics contents and layout ?

-Nigel

[John C]

Ugh!  Updated update!

http://www.classicsincorporated.com/feature_article_b.htm

"MPFW #1 was never copyrighted and no records exist for the date of publication of creation of this comic."

While there is some minor hope in that the book carries a copyright date of 1939, therefore meaning Jacquet probably THOUGHT he copyrighted it, and the repeated mention of distribution in a "test area," which could qualify as publication, it looks like this will stay out of the public domain until the 2060s or so.  Since there are no records, it'd be a matter of researching this "test area" further (where was it?  how many copies were shipped?) and talking to a copyright lawyer as to whether, in his opinion, that'd count as publication.  And who wants to do that!?

The article also has the tiniest bit of information on the contents, based on the Pay Copy, about midway down, by the way.  American Ace (7 pages), Spy Ring (6 pages), Jolly the Newsie (6 pages), Kartoon (4 pages), and the cover are listed.

[phabox]

Thanks for that it helped answer a few of my questions but not without creating yet more questions !

-Nigel

[John C]

It is always nice when questions are answered without actually clarifying anything, isn't it...?

Well, I took a quick look at the legal side, and my personal opinion (though professionally, seek a lawyer, of course) is that it fits the legal definition of published.  Publication is the distribution or offer of distribution of an existing product to the public.  While that last all-important word isn't defined in the paragraph in which it's used, the next paragraph defines (in discussing performance) a public performance to be anyplace where you might be seen by more than your family and usual social circle.

We know that Jacquet printed the complete book.  We know that he sent it to theater owners who he didn't know personally.  We know that this was an advertisement, essentially, to get those owners to buy those for distribution.  While a judge could very well rule differently and so wait for word from on high (Serj or Aussie, basically), I think it's clear that the book was published (offered for distribution) without a copyright.

[Aussie500]

The copyright of what?  Individual issues are copyrighted, not titles.

I was assuming that I didn't need to clarify that statement .... I guess I was wrong.  If you want a full list of the ISSUES of the TITLES I'm talking about, go to www.copyright.gov and do a search, because I'm not spending that much time listing every single issue that turns-up in the results.  Keep in mind that the site only includes results from 1978 to present, so copyrights renewed from 1977 on back won't appear (the bulk of Fawcett's comic output).

I think this has to do with the old Shazam Saturday morning TV series.  They bought the rights to use the trademark character.

No, I'm talking about the comics' copyrights here, not the trademark for the television show.  Besides, the only thing being trademarked for the tv series was the name "Shazam", not "Captain Marvel", "Whiz Comics", etc.  Plus, they wouldn't have been buying the name "Captain Marvel" from Fawcett anyway, since Marvel Comics owned the trademark on the name at the time, hence it being called "Shazam".

[/b]

CBS brought the rights to use the Fawcett superhero characters, and made the Shazam! TV series, DC then licensed the right to use the Fawcett superhero characters and reprint the Fawcett stories, they later brought the rights to all the superhero characters. The trademark was by that time owned by Marvel who used it for a completely different character. It was CBS who renewed all the Captain Marvel Comic titles, which is why none of the other Fawcett material was renewed.



These days l would think DC own all the old Fawcett characters even those that went to Charlton, we are only interested in the old comics though and the copyrights were not renewed on anything but the Captain Marvel related titles.

As to the MPFW #1 l have no idea what that has to do with Fawcett, but even if it was a limited release it would still be classed as being published. Likely if there was a copyright renewal it ended up in the serials section which is not that easy to check.