[Henry Peters]

A quick suggestion for how the Rural Home Publishing books are presented here: You have a publisher folder for Croyden Publishing which one of the publishers that were part of the Rural Home family. It would seem to make more sense have a folder for Rural Home and include all the Croyden books in it as well as books from the other Rural Home publishers (Orbit, Gerona, etc.).  This would also get a few books out of the "Unsorted Folder".  If anyone wants to dig into the history of this group you can start here:  http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1084206&fpart=2
Don't read too much or it'll give you a headache.  There's probably no "right way" to do this that will please everyone, but this would seem to be closer than what's there now.

[narfstar]

Whether we change the name or not we can still move the associated books to the Croyden folder based on the list you linked to. I will try to get to that. Thanks Henry we will see what Aussie says about changing the name.

[Yoc]

I've moved over a few books from the unsorted folder.
Narf, if I missed any please add them as well.

I updated the Croyden description to include the link to M. Nolan's article on the publisher and the list of other publishers under the same umbrella.

[citaltras]

You were right. I got the headache.
I post below a comprehensive summary of the link you provided.
But still it is not clear to me how all these comics should be organized.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
RURAL HOME PUBLISHING

Rural Home Publishing was a group of small publishers in a fluid partnership, using pre-packaged material and operating under the banner of Rural Home with the leading partner apparently being Enwil Associates. This loose group of publishers consisted of:

Almanac (q.v.); Rewl Publications
Carlton *; Circus Comics
E.R. Ross Publishing (q.v.); Enwil Associates
Farm Women's Publishing; Gail Hillson
Jay Burtis; L.L. Baird ; Narrative Magazines
Public Recreations; Rewl Publications
Universal Comics Group
Orbit Publications
Croydon Publications

First let

[Yoc]

Universal Comics Group might be the best name for them all.

[phabox]

Can't remember where I read it now but I seem to recall Fox had some trouble getting the Blue Beetle back from Holyoke.

A case of 'Thieves falling out' perhaps ? 

-Nigel

[John C]

If it were me (and take that for what it's worth), I wouldn't combine Holyoke and Rural (or PDC, which I hadn't heard of before now), even if there is a clear business hierarchy.  A lot of those companies/imprints are very closely related (Helnit, Et-Es-Go, Rural, Rewl, and so forth), but Holyoke seems quite the odd man out in this group.

I mean, maybe it's just my take, but there seems to be a qualitative difference between the two umbrellas.  And besides, among Golden Age fans, I don't think any of us would consider looking for the Blue Beetle and the Green Turtle in the same place.

And that makes sense, because it's likely that Holyoke was only a printer and maybe a temporary surrogate publisher, rather than genuinely part of the Rural Home family.

[phabox]

I think that Richard 'Mr. Goldenage' Boucher covered the history of Holyoke in detail a while back and as I recall it was pretty complex stuff.

Some time ago I was going to share a scan I did of a Sparkling Stars  issue on yahoo along with a 'capsule' history of the company (s) using Richard's piece as a guide but sadly my brain was not equal to the task and seized up so the idea was dropped !!!

-Nigel

[narfstar]

I agree with jcolag on keeping Holyoke separate. It does seem that Universal would be a more accurate umbrela name but I think Rural is what more people would recognize and be familiar with.

[JVJ]

If it were me (and take that for what it's worth), I wouldn't combine Holyoke and Rural (or PDC, which I hadn't heard of before now), even if there is a clear business hierarchy.  A lot of those companies/imprints are very closely related (Helnit, Et-Es-Go, Rural, Rewl, and so forth), but Holyoke seems quite the odd man out in this group.

I mean, maybe it's just my take, but there seems to be a qualitative difference between the two umbrellas.  And besides, among Golden Age fans, I don't think any of us would consider looking for the Blue Beetle and the Green Turtle in the same place.

And that makes sense, because it's likely that Holyoke was only a printer and maybe a temporary surrogate publisher, rather than genuinely part of the Rural Home family.

I quite agree with jcolag, and would even add that there is almost certainly a THIRD entity at work here - Bernard Baily. While the Rural Home titles are connected implicitly with the Lloyd Jacquet shop (including some where he is listed in the indicia and on the ownership pages), there is another "thread" in these titles where the contents are provided by the Baily Shop. It seems VERY unlikely that Jacquet would hire Baily to produce books for him. And the Baily books are the most diverse in their location and names - as if they were buying up or renting the names of companies that had wartime paper allowances. Swapper's Quarterly - forsooth.

I don't have the particulars (nor the time) at the moment to specify who's who and what's what, but it strikes me that the grouping as shown is rather haphazard and arbitrary and I, for one, would want to know what the research was that put all of these titles under that one "umbrella" - because I own most of these books, and the Ownership Statements that I've seen don't support the "history" as presented.

I don't think there IS a "clear business hierarchy" to be seen. You can trace the Rewl, Rural Home, Our, Orbit (to VASTLY oversimplify) connections, but tying it into Holyoke ONLY happens (again, if memory serves) with Rae Hermann. This needs more detail than I can provide right now, but I wanted to echo jcolag's caution about lumping these companies into one large group.

It's just not that simple.

More at a later date. I've got a server to set up and a data drive to recreate.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Snard]

Yikes - that's a lot of discussion spawned by HP's message.

On that subject, I wanted to announce a few uploads (yeah, I know, wrong group, please don't shoot me): Snappy #1, Blue Circle #2, Red Circle #1 and Laffy-Daffy #1. All are scans from HP's collection, edited by different folks who I can't remember anymore.

The Red Circle / Blue Circle were uploaded under the existing titles, which I believe are under Croyden. But I didn't know how to tag the other two, so I picked "Unsorted". Feel free to move them where they belong based on the consensus of the group.

[narfstar]

All up and available. Great my kinda stuff. Never saw Snappy anywhere before. Cover is signed Kinn, who might that be? Whose Who gives no clear choice. Blue and Red saved me having to scan my JVJ copies. Any other Rural/Croydens coming to save me scanning? Much thanks for these.

[bchat]

That popping sound you might have heard was my head exploding.

A while back, for my own amusement, I tried figuring-out all the books published by "Holyoke" and "Rural Home", the main reason being that several versions of Overstreet's Price Guide had Triple Threat Comics listed with the publisher being "Special Action/Holyoke/Gerona".  I'm a big fan of The Duke of Darkness (would love to see the story from Top Spot some day) so I thought it was cool that he was published by the same group that did Cat-Man, making the assumption that Overstreet may have actually been right about something.  Well, after taking a closer look at Keltner's GA Guide and comparing features and all that, I realized the Gerona books associated better with Rural Home.  Long story short, I thought I had it all figured-out well enough when I read this thread and ... POP! ... my head explodes!

I'll throw-in my two-cents (like that's worth anything these days) and say I agree that Holyoke and the books associated with Rural Home should remain seperate since, from what I can tell, they didn't share any features.

Temerson and Ullman were a shifty pair

I've seen a lot of references around the net that infers that Temerson was not an "honest businessman".  Is there any real evidence that Temerson was a "shady character" beyond hearsay?

[narfstar]

I will scan Top Spot this weekend.

[JVJ]

That popping sound you might have heard was my head exploding.

A while back, for my own amusement, I tried figuring-out all the books published by "Holyoke" and "Rural Home", the main reason being that several versions of Overstreet's Price Guide had Triple Threat Comics listed with the publisher being "Special Action/Holyoke/Gerona".  I'm a big fan of The Duke of Darkness (would love to see the story from Top Spot some day) so I thought it was cool that he was published by the same group that did Cat-Man, making the assumption that Overstreet may have actually been right about something.  Well, after taking a closer look at Keltner's GA Guide and comparing features and all that, I realized the Gerona books associated better with Rural Home.  Long story short, I thought I had it all figured-out well enough when I read this thread and ... POP! ... my head explodes!

I'll throw-in my two-cents (like that's worth anything these days) and say I agree that Holyoke and the books associated with Rural Home should remain seperate since, from what I can tell, they didn't share any features.

I actually have a cross-index of characters on most of these comics, bchat, and DofD appeared in Triple Threat, Top Spot and K.O. Komics from ?. Top Spot and Gerona publishers, respectively. Three of the four episodes that I documented were drawn by John Giunta (who was working for Bernard Baily in those days). Triple Threat was published out of 49 Hawkins St in Derby, Conn, the same address as Frank Communale's (the precursor of Charlton) Yellowjacket. Top Spot was on 119 W. 24th St. in NYC, and Gerona was from 363 W. 25th St. in NYC.

Temerson and Ullman were a shifty pair

I've seen a lot of references around the net that infers that Temerson was not an "honest businessman".  Is there any real evidence that Temerson was a "shady character" beyond hearsay?

I don't know about Temerson, but here's a quote from the August 1945 issue of Magazine World as reprinted by Mark Carlson in APA-I:

Violates Quota, Publisher is Sent to Prison

Lindsey L. Baird, president of Rewl Publications, Inc. 500 Fifth Avenue, was sentenced to 60 days imprisonment and $20,000 fine for flouting WPB regulations and using newsprint without a quota to publish two comic magazines, Blazing Comics and Blue Circle. Baird, however, pending an appeal was released in bail of $1000.

Found guilty by a jury of using 300 tons of newsprint for his magazines, Baird was sentenced in New York City by Federal Judge Grover M. Moscowitz. Assistant U.S. Attorney Frederic J. Waters termed Baird a "contumacious chisler."

"contumacious" (I looked it up) means "stubbornly disobedient."

Publishers were allowed to use only a portion (75%) of the amount of paper they used in 1942 until July of 1945 when it was raised to 80% and August when it was raised to 85%. In Sept. the restrictions were eliminated.

These facts are also from Mark's research in copies of Magazine World. I sure would like to hear from Mark again. I wonder what he's discovered since these 20 year old APA-I efforts?

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[bchat]

Three of the four episodes that I documented were drawn by John Giunta (who was working for Bernard Baily in those days).

This is the info I have regarding The Duke's three appearances that I know of:

K.O. Komics 1 [gerona publishers] - "Prof jabberwacky" also ran in "Snappy Comics" from Cima Publishing

Triple Threat Comics 1 [special action comics inc aka gerona publishers] - "Beau Brummell" is a feature that also ran in "TNT Comics" while "King O'Leary" ran in "Red Band Comics" copyrighted to Enwil Associates.[February 1946, which had Yellowjacket for its one and only issue], published by Frank Comunale aka Charlton Comics

Top Spot Comics 1 [top spot publishing aka gerona publishers]

Sam Cooper (Mr Justice at MLJ) drew at least one story of The Duke (my totally untrained eye thinks it's his work on the KO Komics story, although the story itself doesn't carry credits as far as I can see).  "Jay Gee" (John Giunta) drew the Triple Threat tale.  I've never seen the Top Spot story. [info gathered from the stories themselves, Overstreet, Keltner's Index and bailsproject.com, which is pretty neat site]

But you say "four episodes".  Each of the three titles (KO, Top Spot and Triple Threat) were one-shots.  Is there another appearance I'm not aware of?

Interesting tidbit about Baird.  I wonder if he was the only guy to do such a thing or just the only one to get caught doing it.

[JVJ]

Okay, bchat,
this is going to take some doing. It's a good thing that my "work" computers are busy transferring about 300 GB of data to each other, so I have some time...

There were only THREE appearance of the Duke, as you say. I'm at a small disadvantage in that so many of these comics are currently out being scanned and I'm working from notes. The "4th" appearance was on the cover of Top Spot.

Three of the four episodes that I documented were drawn by John Giunta (who was working for Bernard Baily in those days).

This is the info I have regarding The Duke's three appearances that I know of:

K.O. Komics 1 [gerona publishers] - "Prof jabberwacky" also ran in "Snappy Comics" from Cima Publishing

and PJ doesn't appear in Triple-Threat, though - for whatever that means/implies.

Triple Threat Comics 1 [special action comics inc aka gerona publishers]

Where does this "aka" info come from? The only address listed for Special Action Comics is 49 Hawkins, Derby, CN. No connection to Gerona there. This is an equation I would hesitate to make unless we're willing to say that all titles with the same characters are from the same publisher (and then which one do we choose?). Why not "aka Top Spot"?

- "Beau Brummell" is a feature that also ran in "TNT Comics"

and in Snappy and Atomic Bomb from Cima, and Jay Burtis, respectively.

while "King O'Leary" ran in "Red Band Comics" copyrighted to Enwil Associates.

KO'L also appears in Zoom and Merry from Carlton (sic) at 42 5th Ave, NYC.

[February 1946, which had Yellowjacket for its one and only issue], published by Frank Comunale aka Charlton Comics

I don't understand what this sentence means. I don't have a copy of Yellowjacket #1, so I don't know if "its one and only issue" means that Enwil published YJ #1? Frank Communale published YJ 2-4, so please restate your point here. Thanks.

Also, describing Frank Communale as "aka Charlton Comics" is akin to describing All-American Comics in 1942 as "aka National Comics". I think it's more accurate to say that Frank Communale was the precursor of Charlton.

Top Spot Comics 1 [top spot publishing aka gerona publishers]

again I ask why Gerona had become the default publisher? I know we have to call it something, but Gerona, as far as I know, appeared in ONE comic book and doesn't seem to merit the "honor". Top Spot also contains Epod and The Menace, who also shares the other two Duke of Darkness comics.

Sam Cooper (Mr Justice at MLJ) drew at least one story of The Duke (my totally untrained eye thinks it's his work on the KO Komics story, although the story itself doesn't carry credits as far as I can see).

I don't think it's Sam Cooper on the K-O Duke story. My notes guess George Appel?, but it reminds me of an artist who MIGHT be Ramona Patenaude. I just don't know, but I think I WOULD recognize Cooper (and I do see why you might lean in his direction).

"Jay Gee" (John Giunta) drew the Triple Threat tale.  I've never seen the Top Spot story. [info gathered from the stories themselves, Overstreet, Keltner's Index and bailsproject.com, which is pretty neat site]

But you say "four episodes".  Each of the three titles (KO, Top Spot and Triple Threat) were one-shots.  Is there another appearance I'm not aware of?

Interesting tidbit about Baird.  I wonder if he was the only guy to do such a thing or just the only one to get caught doing it.

Oh, there were definitely others, bc. Mark has another clipping that tells of Twinkle and Pop Pop comics being removed from the racks in NYC for a similar violation. R.B. Leffingwell is cited in the story.

You can see that this mish-mash of books I lovingly refer to as "Carlson's Comics" is a never-ending source of speculation and frustration. Everything needs to kept focused on the FACTS which is why I resist calling Special Action Comics "Gerona." It's not a fact and there isn't any room for unlabeled leaps of faith in this research. Speculation needs to be spelled out. And, yes, there are weird people out here who have been researching these crazy books for 25 years.

Here are some other thoughts:
some features appear to be "owned" by the artists. You see a lot of episodes of  Superstitious Aloysius copyright by A.F. who I believe is August Froehlich who started the character. As a part of the Baily Studio, Froehlich appeared in lots of these comics. More later.

Must sign off. Thanks for sparking the flames of this fire. It needs to be seen.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Yoc]

Hi Jim,
I love those historical insider stories like you just mentioned about Lindsey L. Baird.  I'd hear one publisher was caught but never heard the details.

I apologize but what is APA-I?  Google turned up nothing.  Pardon the newbie question.

Would you have anything about what really happened to Fox after he let Holyoke have Blue Beetle to publish until his return and the eventual of the company?  Phabox and I would love to have an accurate account to include in The Phantom Lady Archive v2 - the Fox years.  Fox seems to come out of nowhere though he did have shady dealings before comics.  It's been disproved that he ever worked for National as an account before ordering Wonder Comics 1.
Anything would be great.  If you knew of particularly good articles we might read please let us know.  If it's just too big a subject to cover I completely understand as well.

-Yoc

[phabox]

My all time favorite 'Fox Fantasy' is the story put around after his return to publishing that he had 'been away to the war' not sure where and how this story started, maybe Fox himself came up with it but IMO it was MOST unlikely for at least three reasons.

1) Fox would have been in his 40's ( according to Joe Simon) when the war broke out.

2) as I understand it Fox was British but living in the US he would have been exempt from call up ( much like artist Lee Ellias) unless of course he SIGNED UP - VERY unlikely in the case of Fox I would have thought !

3) Unless I've got my history wrong the war was still going strong when he 'reappeared' in late 43, resumed publishing Blue Beetle and began gearing up for his new line of GGA and Crime titles.

So the questions are where WAS he during those couple of years when he dropped out of sight and how was it after being broke he had the capitol to set up shop again when he did 'return from the front'

There are many other Fox myths and riddles i'd like to crack but in many cases the truth may be lost forever in the mists of time.

-Nigel

[John C]

Fox seems to come out of nowhere though he did have shady dealings before comics.  It's been disproved that he ever worked for National as an account before ordering Wonder Comics 1.

Not to be totally contrary on everything, but what IS this evidence that he wasn't National's accountant?  The only point where this "debunking" appears, to my knowledge, is in an interview with Eisner, I believe.  And how would he know who the accountant is?

Don't get me wrong, here--I respect his work and I'm not married to the story of Fox at DC, but...I don't know, I don't like it at all when things suddenly become "historical fact" without a paper trail.

[phabox]

Fox is said to have worked on Wall Street sometime in the late 20's early 30's before having a 'problem' with the police which caused him to move on.

With that kind of background its not that unlikely he may have found work with National as an accountant, though I expect he would'nt have mentioned the court appearance when seeking employment !

I am slowly putting together the jigsaw that is Fox'es back story but there are still a few pieces missing and its never easy to separate fact from fiction after almost 70 years.

Both Eisner and Joe Simon have been usfull sources of information but in fairness I feel that what 'Simon Says' is a bit more dependable as there was much bitterness between Fox and Eisner following the Wonderman case which may well have 'colored' Eisners recollections of him in later years.

-Nigel

[John C]

Actually, I wonder if an investigation would've kept Fox out of National.  By all accounts I've seen, Donenfeld considered himself quite the renegade.  He might not have met with the approval of Liebowitz, but I've worked for companies where that sort of thing doesn't make a heck of lot of difference.

I find it interesting that nobody at DC has ever weighed in on this, given that (a) they should have employment records dating back to the early days and (b) their staff is chock full of self-proclaimed experts and researchers.  Just people who...well, what's the last job you worked where you knew the accountant by name?  You might know payroll, but not bookkeeping.

[bchat]

JVJ -

The "4th" appearance was on the cover of Top Spot

I was really hoping you were going to tell me he had a fourth story somewhere.

Keep in mind that the info I included in my previous post was for myself [copied from files on my pc] and wasn't really meant to be read by the world at large, which is why I only referenced one other book in regards to Prof Jabberwacky, for example .... I was simply making connections between KO Komics and Snappy Comics and their respective publishers.

I don't understand what this sentence means. I don't have a copy of Yellowjacket #1, so I don't know if "its one and only issue" means that Enwil published YJ #1? Frank Communale published YJ 2-4, so please restate your point here. Thanks.

Again, the info I was copying from my pc makes sense to me ... I should have cleared it up for people who think normally.  The statement is supposed to mean that YJ appeared in TNT 1,  the only issue of that title that I'm aware of.  Sorry that wasn't made clearer.

The "aka Gerona" is info I'm taking from Overstreet's Price Guides.  I haven't purchased one in years [got tired of paying for 200 pages of ads], so maybe they read differently now, but in the copies I have, they list Gerona for every book, along with what they consider to be associated publishers.  Not having these books in hand, I can't confirm or deny for myself what the actual publishing info says inside the comic [I've only DL'ed KO Komics from here].  I take most everything from Overstreet with a grain of salt and usually look for confirmation from other sources.  Unfortunately, I've found some mistakes in the Keltner Index, too, so being unable to say "they're right, this is wrong" I just keep all the info together until I can straighten it out with a reliable source.

Also, describing Frank Communale as "aka Charlton Comics" is akin to describing All-American Comics in 1942 as "aka National Comics". I think it's more accurate to say that Frank Communale was the precursor of Charlton.

That's just me being lazy.  Personally, I see a stronger connection between All-American & National than Communale & Charlton, but I lump C&C together for personal convenience.

I don't think it's Sam Cooper on the K-O Duke story.

That info is taken from the bailsproject site, which lists him as working on a Duke of Darkness story in 1945 [the site doesn't clarify what issue].  "My totally untrained eye" sees similarities between what he had done in Mr Justice stories and the KO Komics Duke story [again, I haven't seen the Top Spot story so I can't say anything about that].  Since Duke was published 2 years after the last Mr J story, I expect there to be a noticable difference between the artwork of the two features [all artists change over time].

jcolag -

(a) they should have employment records dating back to the early days

No real reason they should have records dating back that far beyond sentimental value.  The IRS tends to not care about anything past seven or eight years.  I worked at a company that had me throw-out records from "eight years ago" because there was no legal reason to keep them and they were taking-up space.

[JVJ]

Fox seems to come out of nowhere though he did have shady dealings before comics.  It's been disproved that he ever worked for National as an account before ordering Wonder Comics 1.

Not to be totally contrary on everything, but what IS this evidence that he wasn't National's accountant?  The only point where this "debunking" appears, to my knowledge, is in an interview with Eisner, I believe.  And how would he know who the accountant is?

Don't get me wrong, here--I respect his work and I'm not married to the story of Fox at DC, but...I don't know, I don't like it at all when things suddenly become "historical fact" without a paper trail.

I think you and I would get along famously, jcolag (or fight like cats and dogs - but no middle ground...) as I agree with you totally, "What IS the evidence?" Hearing stories and misrembering stuff doesn't help much in pinning down facts.

And Phabox, if you are "slowly putting together the jigsaw that is Fox's back story" why not share what you have with a few people via PM and see if we can add to it.

Quote from Yoc:

Hi Jim,
I love those historical insider stories like you just mentioned about Lindsey L. Baird.  I'd hear one publisher was caught but never heard the details.

I apologize but what is APA-I?  Google turned up nothing.  Pardon the newbie question.

Would you have anything about what really happened to Fox after he let Holyoke have Blue Beetle to publish until his return and the eventual of the company?  Phabox and I would love to have an accurate account to include in The Phantom Lady Archive v2 - the Fox years.  Fox seems to come out of nowhere though he did have shady dealings before comics.  It's been disproved that he ever worked for National as an account before ordering Wonder Comics 1.
Anything would be great.  If you knew of particularly good articles we might read please let us know.  If it's just too big a subject to cover I completely understand as well.

APA-I was the Indexing APA (Amateur Press Alliance). People like me, Mike Tieffenbacher, Don Rosa, John Benson, the aforementioned Mark Carlson and many others who've faded from mid after 25 years would put indexes together, photocopy and collate them into "zines" and mail them to a "Central Mailer" who would then collate one copy of each zine into an "apa" that was then mailed to each member. I think there were 25 members, but, as I said, it was a long time ago. I'm sure that some of the current GAC members can add some names or may have been involved. I know the APA ran for at least 100 issues as I was invited to contribute something to that landmark issue and it's where I published my research on Munson Paddock.

Even before that I was in APA-5. This was back in 1970-71 and I was even the Central Mailer for a time. Members included Frank Miller, Chris Warner, Mark Verheiden, Paul Chadwick, Art Scott, Ron Harris, Randy Emberlin, and others who have also slipped from mind. You want to see Frank Miller artwork done when he was 15 years old? I've got it....

If nothing else, Yoc, you've succeeded in reminding me of my age.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[JVJ]

Hi Jim,

I apologize but what is APA-I?  Google turned up nothing.  Pardon the newbie question.

-Yoc

I just did a Google search on ["APA-I" comic books] and turned up this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Comic-Book_Database

Wikipedia lists APA-I as the precursor to the GCD, and mentions a lot of people that I had forgotten who were part of it, Bob Klein and Jon Ingersol, to name two. Apparently, it's still going, ATW, but unlike GCD or GAC, it doesn't condone "lurking" or guests - active participants only.