[JVJ]

Yeah it's by the estimated value... which is usually an estimate gleaned from the "Overstreet Price Guide."

In the case of Zap #1, it isn't even IN Overstreet and the Underground Price Guides now appear woefully out of date, don't they? Whatever CGC charged Heritage, it was less than they will charge the next person with a copy.

BTW, the comics can be removed from the holder (care must be taken in doing so)... but of course that invalidates the grade. ... nevertheless the ultimate price paid or received is still determined by other forces (as we see with the Wolverine #1 comic). 

I know that (Bud does it all the time with his CGC books, but in this case, the book can NEVER be removed from the slab without risking a drastic drop in "value," DL. NO ONE is going to risk thousands of dollars by actually breathing on this copy. It's a trophy - nothing more.

(|:{>

[John C]

I let Heritage slab my Zap #1 and deduct the cost of same from the sale price. I think I got a deal because NOBODY expected it to go as high as it did and I think CGC charges based on the "value" of the book.

As long as they're useful to the sale, I don't see any reason not to use them.  I just find it interesting that a group that's essentially an industry parasite (they don't actually add value, or even identify the value) ended up at the core of so many transactions.

Or, more to the point, other than finding a source for the tombstones, it's something that any of us could do, but would've been laughed at if we tried getting money for it.

As for the grades, it's mind-boggling how much someone seems to be willing to pay for a book they can't even OPEN UP! But the "why" is more befuddling than the "how much"?

It's not as politically correct as it used to be, but a friend of mine used to call it "hillbilly economics."  It's the idea that you can buy some expensive thing, hang on to it for decades, and sell it at an enormous profit.

I'm consistently shocked at how many people think that this is how to make money.  Especially since it seems to drive the stock market, among other fields where people should know better.

As an exercise, I thought it'd be interesting to see the profit if one took the "WalMart approach" of selling cheap as frequently as possible instead of waiting for the jackpot.  I know that you didn't buy the book as an investment, and probably didn't even intend to resell it, but this sort of thing always makes me very curious, especially for the people who DO buy things for their "eventual" value.

If we start with the same twenty-five cents, but invest and resell at even a modest five percent profit every month for forty years, that would've raked in close to four billion dollars.  Whew!  Gotta love compound interest.  (In case anybody was curious, the sale at thirteen thousand is roughly the same as a two and a quarter percent monthly profit.)

Of course, during the last months, you'd have to know where to unload billions of dollars in merchandise, but still, that's probably better than needing to house the piles of entombed comics...

[bchat]

As an exercise, I thought it'd be interesting to see the profit if one took the "WalMart approach" of selling cheap as frequently as possible instead of waiting for the jackpot.

Interesting idea, but you overlook one basic thing:  The "Wal-Mart approach" requires WORK, while the "hold onto it until it's worth a lot" approach requires practically no work at all beyond storing a comic in a plastic case for a certain number of years.

I just find it interesting that a group that's essentially an industry parasite (they don't actually add value, or even identify the value) ended up at the core of so many transactions.   Or, more to the point, other than finding a source for the tombstones, it's something that any of us could do, but would've been laughed at if we tried getting money for it.

CGC provides a service for collectors [like mail-order dealers or the companies that make comic bags, boards & boxes], so I don't agree with using the term "parasite".  The sports cards dealers of the 1990s who sold comics just to make a quick buck and cared nothing for the industry?  THEY were parasites!  After talking to a "Charter Member" of CGC, who has run his own comic shop for 15-20 years, helps a friend of his run a small comic show, and is basically a pretty nice guy who won't sell CGC-graded books in his store, I just can't see calling CGC a "parasite" simply because some collectors are willing to spend ungodly amounts of money on a Near-Mint book published two months ago.  That's not CGC's fault.

The only benefit I see to a comic book being "professionally graded" is if you're buying it "sight unseen", which in today's world means "buying it online".  I've purchased "ungraded" books from well-known comic dealers and was shocked at how they "grade" their books [higher than they should have].  So in the world of online auctions, I believe that CGC and PGX and companies like that [if there are any others] are helping to keep otherwise crooked dealers honest in least in terms of what condition a book is in.  Now, if people are willing to pay $50 for Power Pack # 5 just because it's encased in plastic, that's their problem.

And there's nothing stopping anyone else from setting-up their own shop and becoming a professional grading company.  You'ld only get laughed at if you had no idea what you were doing.

[John C]

Interesting idea, but you overlook one basic thing:  The "Wal-Mart approach" requires WORK, while the "hold onto it until it's worth a lot" approach requires practically no work at all beyond storing a comic in a plastic case for a certain number of years.

Granted, but you're taking a risk, instead, otherwise.  Especially now that there's a collectable market, making the new books entirely uncollectable.  Imagine if your tombstone collects Major Inapak or your favorite color of Legends of the Dark Knight.

You would also need to figure in the storage space that you can never use for anything else, and the measures taken to protect the single risky investment.

At a guess, I'd say that if you could put a dollar value on everything, the effective costs would be about the same either way.

I just can't see calling CGC a "parasite" simply because some collectors are willing to spend ungodly amounts of money on a Near-Mint book published two months ago.  That's not CGC's fault.

I meant the term more clinically and less ethically, but I'll grant that it's probably over the top either way.

However, since they only serve to take books OUT of circulation and thus inflate the market (and charge for what's effectively damage done), they're not exactly saving the world or entertaining the masses.

That's not to say that individual collectors don't get their money's worth out of the service, just that the rank and file are only hurt by the activity.

(Of course, it could be worse.  If it were run like a bank, you'd pay them to technically own the book and then take a cut for every supposed sale from that point on, too...)

[Yoc]

Don't give them any ideas John!
It's not a big stretch to the imagination for that last one.

[Drusilla lives!]

In the case of Zap #1, it isn't even IN Overstreet and the Underground Price Guides now appear woefully out of date, don't they?

Yes... and that's probably one of the reasons Gemstone (with all their recent problems) apparently is thinking of ceasing its publication.  Personally, I only buy one every several years to get a general idea of what's going on in the market (but I do like the historical pieces and trivia info as well).  But as far as real pricing?... no way.  I think eventually a trading system might develop with daily price quotes for certain issues... talk about a once innocent and fun hobby becoming ever more mercantilistic.  

...Whatever CGC charged Heritage, it was less than they will charge the next person with a copy.

Well, don't feel bad.  Look at it this way, maybe the next guy was standing on the corner of Haight and Ash when this dude with a baby carriage came along hawking his funny looking comic book and bought one after chewing him down to 5 cents.   So if CGC charges him $100 to slab the book and he only gets $1000 for it he'd still have made $899.86 (assuming a 2% compounded rate of inflation on his initial 5 cents).  

...I know that (Bud does it all the time with his CGC books, but in this case, the book can NEVER be removed from the slab without risking a drastic drop in "value," DL. NO ONE is going to risk thousands of dollars by actually breathing on this copy. It's a trophy - nothing more.

Well, in the case of that Wolverine #1, that is the primary reason they bid it up... it was a pristine copy.  So with that particular comic book I can see it never being touched by human hands again... but then, who really cares?   It's not a comic I'd want to read anyway... in my opinion, it's not even the best cover of the series.  The next 10.0 copy (if there is one out there) may not fetch that price regardless... it might be a once in a lifetime fluke.  But your copy of Zap #1 is different... very different, in my opinion.

But in a way it is rather unique when you think about it... no wrinkles or spine rolls, no color fading, even after being handled on the newsstand (I'm assuming it was a regular, circulation copy, not a direct market copy).   Not to mention it's a mass produced item (and anything and everything can go wrong with its creation), rather miraculous when you think about it... like finding a perfect Coke can.  

BWA-HA-HA-HA!!!  

How about that, now that's a thought, 10K for a perfect Coke can... nuts I tell ya! 

[John C]

I think eventually a trading system might develop with daily price quotes for certain issues... talk about a once innocent and fun hobby becoming ever more mercantilistic.  

Wow.  I mean, just...wow.

That's such a shockingly bad idea that I almost think a bunch of us should get it off the ground, just to preempt random rich people from making themselves richer at our expense.

No, I don't know how serious I am, either.  But I am a programmer, and can easily see charging for real-time-ish data feeds...

[Drusilla lives!]

I think eventually a trading system might develop with daily price quotes for certain issues... talk about a once innocent and fun hobby becoming ever more mercantilistic.  

Wow.  I mean, just...wow.

That's such a shockingly bad idea that I almost think a bunch of us should get it off the ground, just to preempt random rich people from making themselves richer at our expense.

No, I don't know how serious I am, either.  But I am a programmer, and can easily see charging for real-time-ish data feeds...

Shocking yes, but bad?... who really knows.  Just think, perhaps an options market could emerge as well.  I could buy a "put" on the price of that Wolverine #1... but wait, maybe they'll come out with a VIX.  Yeah yeah, and then maybe someone might get the idea of packaging some of these "comic" derivatives up into CDO's... "comic derivative obligations."  Yeah, I can see it all now. 

[Yoc]

(reads above... thinks for half a second...)
I think I'm going to be sick! 

[JVJ]

talk about a once innocent and fun hobby becoming ever more mercantilistic.  

I got into collecting comics before the Price Guide, DL,
and I've watched people trying to take the fun out of comic collecting for more than 40 years. I simply refuse to let them - and I think a LOT of the folks here have developed the same attitude.

Well, don't feel bad.  Look at it this way, maybe the next guy was standing on the corner of Haight and Ash when this dude with a baby carriage came along hawking his funny looking comic book and bought one after chewing him down to 5 cents.   So if CGC charges him $100 to slab the book and he only gets $1000 for it he'd still have made $899.86 (assuming a 2% compounded rate of inflation on his initial 5 cents).  Grin

Though perhaps not at the corner of Haight and Ashbury, my copy WAS bought directly from Crumb, by my friend Al Davoren. Al GAVE Bud and me each a copy of the comic because he thought we should have one. This was back in 1968. I'm certain he paid the full 25

[Drusilla lives!]

On second thought... they might have to call them CBDO's ("comic book derivative obligations").  Don't want anyone to get them confused with those other CDO's.  

(reads above... thinks for half a second...)
I think I'm going to be sick! 

I hope everyone out there knows I'm just kidding... right?  

[Drusilla lives!]

talk about a once innocent and fun hobby becoming ever more mercantilistic.  

I got into collecting comics before the Price Guide, DL,
and I've watched people trying to take the fun out of comic collecting for more than 40 years. I simply refuse to let them - and I think a LOT of the folks here have developed the same attitude.

Well, I don't blame Overstreet for taking the fun out of it... in fact, if it wasn't for the guide I wouldn't have ever known about all the great comics that were produced back in the golden and early silver age.  I mean, by the time I started out reading and buying comics in the mid 70s, and then becoming aware of comic book history (via the guide) in the late 70s, those older books were gone... presumably bought up by older collectors (in years prior).  The oldest books you could find in my local comic shop (and this was in NYC no less) were select late silver age... and by select, I mean stuff that was good, but in retrospect was either not dear to the hearts of the more knowledgeable older fans (that is, no early Ditko, no Steranko, no independents, not even some of the better Kirby stuff), or so ubiquitous as to be thought hardly worth the effort (even some older Warren mags with some great artwork fell into this last category). 

That's why I think it's great what you guys (and others, like those at the GCD) are doing.  By making some of these PD hard to find works available in digital form, some of us that have never seen or held a golden age book can at least get a sense of what they're really like... it really helps in promoting comic research and scholarship among us less well-heeled and/or lucky fans.  So when was comics not about collecting, or should I say hoarding?  When was it not about money?  Don't ask me, in my opinion it's always been this way.  And not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with making a profit... when it's justified (and reasonable).  But no matter how I try, there's nothing that I think justifies Wolverine #1 going for 10K in my opinion at this time (10.0 or not).  Maybe in a thousand years, but twenty-five or so years after publication???  Perhaps the dollar is in the crapper after all, and this is just another sign of a mad rush to "hard" assets.

[bchat]

I think eventually a trading system might develop with daily price quotes for certain issues...

&

That's such a shockingly bad idea that I almost think a bunch of us should get it off the ground, just to preempt random rich people from making themselves richer at our expense.

Honestly, I can't believe that something along those lines hasn't been done already.  Some sort of database that quoted prices from around the web [eBay auctions, average eBay Buy-It-Now prices, average website prices] would benefit collectors, not hurt them.  I've seen some pretty outrageous prices on eBay for some things, and have come across books that are fairly rare and wondered if the asking price was too high for its condition.  I have no faith in price guides like Overstreet for pricing purposes [I sell comics, too] since they're practically out-of-date before they're even printed.  When I go to sell something, I look for the lowest price available elsewhere because the price guides are worthless to me and generally have values listed that I'll never get for anything I sell, IF I actually want to sell it [which I usually do].

Going back to the $10k Wolverine:  It's a fluke, plain and simple.  The stars were aligned properly for more than one person, who really wanted a perfect 10 copy, to be at the same place at the same time.  I've sold a few things on eBay and have gotten more than they were actually worth because I was lucky enough to have more than one person fighting over it.  It happens and I'm happy when it does, but it really doesn't mean anything beyond what it is ... a fluke.

[John C]

Shocking yes, but bad?... who really knows.

As you expand the idea, you hit it on the head.  I didn't mean bad as "unworkable," but "destructive."  It's certainly doable.

And tying to bchat's comments, it'd be especially easy to keep up to date, because a true "exchange" doesn't include anything that doesn't happen outside of their system, for which they charge a commission.  (And by the way, most of you who trade stock don't actually own the shares--it's the name on the certificate, which is usually the broker or the exchange, which is why I jokingly suggested it earlier.)

I mean, imagine telling shops and auction users that their sale "doesn't count," because we didn't get a cut!

And yes, the shares of collateralized comic books options and naked short calls on Phantom Lady to drive down the prices...well, terrifying, and yet seems inevitable...

[bchat]

DL & JC - I'm starting to think I misunderstood what you two were talking about. 

If you meant something along the lines of treating individual comics as a collaborative investment, sort of like shares in a company, I can actually see it happening one day beginning with the rarest & most expensive books.  Looking at it that way, it's a weird idea but I don't see where normal comic fans who simply enjoy reading comics would really be affected by it, as it would only increase the difficulty of owning rarer books like Action Comics # 1 and so forth, and have no bearing on someone being able to purchase the latest issue of Secret Six.  In comics, supply usually meets demand, and when it doesn't we get reprints.

If you two meant something totally different than that, then just ignore me and I'll be quiet.

[Drusilla lives!]

Shocking yes, but bad?... who really knows.

As you expand the idea, you hit it on the head.  I didn't mean bad as "unworkable," but "destructive."  It's certainly doable.

And tying to bchat's comments, it'd be especially easy to keep up to date, because a true "exchange" doesn't include anything that doesn't happen outside of their system, for which they charge a commission.  (And by the way, most of you who trade stock don't actually own the shares--it's the name on the certificate, which is usually the broker or the exchange, which is why I jokingly suggested it earlier.)

I mean, imagine telling shops and auction users that their sale "doesn't count," because we didn't get a cut!

And yes, the shares of collateralized comic books options and naked short calls on Phantom Lady to drive down the prices...well, terrifying, and yet seems inevitable...

I was really joking, but it is an interesting idea isn't it.  Not that I really think it should ever be done to the extreme as I suggested... that was just me joking around.

But technically it's so doable it's shocking no one has done it... all the software is freely available to get it off the ground.  A linux box with mysql for the DB is all you really need.  Oh, and php for the webbots, if you don't want to collect and key-in the daily info yourself... BTW, I'm a programmer (or was one) too.

But (for the sake of argument), as you happen to mention, what information should be collected and from where?  I was thinking about this last night.  Perhaps ebay and Heritage auction closing prices?  They were the only two sources I could think of with any kind of daily volume.  The fact is, there really aren't that many online and accessible comic auction spaces, and even if there were, I don't think any particular comic book would "trade" at any sort of frequency to justify a tracking of its particular selling price... maybe an index of such comics, but not any particular issue (like for instance FF #1).  Perhaps a weighted average of some combination of comics (reflective of say, the value of the first 100 issues of FF)?

It's an interesting hypothetical question... but perhaps one that's best left that way. 

[Drusilla lives!]

DL & JC - I'm starting to think I misunderstood what you two were talking about. 

If you meant something along the lines of treating individual comics as a collaborative investment, sort of like shares in a company, I can actually see it happening one day beginning with the rarest & most expensive books.  Looking at it that way, it's a weird idea but I don't see where normal comic fans who simply enjoy reading comics would really be affected by it, as it would only increase the difficulty of owning rarer books like Action Comics # 1 and so forth, and have no bearing on someone being able to purchase the latest issue of Secret Six.  In comics, supply usually meets demand, and when it doesn't we get reprints.

If you two meant something totally different than that, then just ignore me and I'll be quiet.

That's an interesting (and possibly frightening) idea as well... a "mutual fund" based on a portfolio of comic book assets.  That could emerge as well I'm afraid.  You see it's interesting... putting aside the quasi-moral philosophical debate as to whether comic books should be considered "investments" (BTW I don't, but I do like the idea that I could get a small monetary return if I ever chose to sell my stash), lets face it, some people do consider comics as an "investment" and furthermore, they are no longer as illiquid an "investment" as they once were... and not as illiquid as other "hard" assets of a similar nature (a piece of "fine" art for example).   So with this in mind, it's not as far flung an idea as to envision a mutual fund based on comic book and comic artwork assets.   

It's the price an art form pays when it "matures" I suppose... and now that I think about it, comic books have a strange and unique potential parallel with stocks. 

[narfstar]

I see great condition older books as a great investment. Slab em and use them for investment. Leave the below fine condion out there at a reasonable price for the rest of us to read. Nothing wrong with two different markets.

[Drusilla lives!]

I see great condition older books as a great investment. Slab em and use them for investment. Leave the below fine condion out there at a reasonable price for the rest of us to read. Nothing wrong with two different markets.

That's the problem though, where do they stop, at fine, very fine, near mint?  Organized speculation will probably effect all grades however carefully managed.  A best case in my opinion would be an ETF (maybe they'll give it the ticker "COMICS" or "COMIX") or a closed-end mutual fund... at least they wouldn't have the pressure to sell assets at the drop of a hat to satisfy capital withdrawals.  They would have a fixed number of valuable, high-grade comics that they would add to every few years... thus limiting their effect on the comic market as a whole (hopefully).
 
That's another interesting thought... perhaps someone is thinking of this already.  They have gold, silver and ETF's for other assets, perhaps one comprised of valuable comics is just around the corner.  Maybe they're already "collecting" high-grade comics.   Perhaps JVJ should have asked for more... much more.     


I'm just kidding JVJ... you did good in my opinion.

[bchat]

Regarding an up-to-date database of comic book prices:  IF it wasn't run by comic dealers [who would probably be tempted to mess with the numbers in their favor], it would be a tremendous asset to the online comic buying community as I envision it.   I just ran across something today where a person was asking if they paid too much for a couple of comics.  IF such as database were run by honest collectors and already existed, the buyer in question would have had his answers before making his purchase.  What I picture is something along the lines of having current online prices: a column for eBay auctions, one for eBay BIN prices, one for Heritage, and one for average prices [with a High-Low] from dealer-owned websites.  It wouldn't be solely auction prices because not everything is available all the time.  Obviously there'ld be tons of details to work-out, but the idea is that collectors wouldn't feel that they were being ripped-off by anyone [at least for the price] when they purchase books online because they could see where the best deal was.

Regarding "group-investment comics":  It's just a fun idea to think about, really, with the downside being that it would definitely ruin collecting of older, more valuable books for the average collector IF you could actually trust the people in charge of the process.  I think it would be fun to watch people speculate on the resale value of buying & selling, for example, Amazing Man Comics # 5, by buying a percentage or share of the book, and then selling that percentage off to other speculators who hope to make money down the line by selling their "share" to yet another investor.  Mind you, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a scam even if I had money to burn because I don't trust anybody, but it would be funny to watch speculators get burned by it all when it completely falls apart.

putting aside the quasi-moral philosophical debate as to whether comic books should be considered "investments" (BTW I don't,... )

Comics are investments if you buy them to turn a decent profit over an extended period of time, and they're a hobby if you buy them to read.  I don't "invest" in comics, since anything I buy specifically to sell online or elsewhere are things I don't want to sink a lot of money into and want to get rid of as quickly as possible ...  it's a "job".  As for what I buy beyond that, I get them for my own personal amusement and never with the idea that I'll sell them at some point.

[Drusilla lives!]

Regarding an up-to-date database of comic book prices:  IF it wasn't run by comic dealers [who would probably be tempted to mess with the numbers in their favor], it would be a tremendous asset to the online comic buying community as I envision it.  I just ran across something today where a person was asking if they paid too much for a couple of comics.  IF such as database were run by honest collectors and already existed, the buyer in question would have had his answers before making his purchase.  What I picture is something along the lines of having current online prices: a column for eBay auctions, one for eBay BIN prices, one for Heritage, and one for average prices [with a High-Low] from dealer-owned websites.  It wouldn't be solely auction prices because not everything is available all the time.  Obviously there'ld be tons of details to work-out, but the idea is that collectors wouldn't feel that they were being ripped-off by anyone [at least for the price] when they purchase books online because they could see where the best deal was.

I think the barriers to entering the auction space are pretty high now (not technical barriers, but perception barriers... trust building), with ebay (for general merchandise) and Heritage (for high end collectibles) pretty much it... and maybe Amazon possibly, if they were to add auctions to their business model.  These three (or some combination of them, after mergers) would be the sole basis for the daily pricing info... the problem is getting this info.  They might not want to share it freely... in fact they might start a composite index themselves.  Free stock quotes are commonplace today, but not just seven or eight years ago.   I don't know who these "comic dealers" are, or how they would arm twist the exchanges (presumably ebay and Heritage) into manipulating pricing data, there would simply be people with comics to sell and people who want to buy them.  They would have to buy and sell them on the "exchange" for a price reflective of both the perceived value of the object and the costs of the acquisition.  The one problem I might see is that perhaps things would have to change a bit for the exchanges, the costs of a "transaction" would need to be normalized to a fixed pricing scheme, regardless of the value of the comic book... but then you run into the problem of how many transactions would need to be made to support the exchange and so on, which in turn could lead to other problems of excess.  Overall not an easy balancing act indeed.

...Regarding "group-investment comics":  It's just a fun idea to think about, really, with the downside being that it would definitely ruin collecting of older, more valuable books for the average collector IF you could actually trust the people in charge of the process.

Again, maybe it would ruin collecting... who knows.  It requires a careful, unbiased analysis of other markets, and an accounting of both the good and bad aspects of them with an eye for translating what is learned to the new proposed system.  It's something that should be done, but history shows it rarely is... the result is sometimes disaster.  Besides, hasn't that boat sailed already... I mean, what "average" collector has a few thousand to spend on a good quality copy of certain highly desired issues.  I know I never did, nor unfortunately does it seem I ever will.

And personally, I don't trust anyone.

...Comics are investments if you buy them to turn a decent profit over an extended period of time, and they're a hobby if you buy them to read.  I don't "invest" in comics, since anything I buy specifically to sell online or elsewhere are things I don't want to sink a lot of money into and want to get rid of as quickly as possible ...  it's a "job".  As for what I buy beyond that, I get them for my own personal amusement and never with the idea that I'll sell them at some point.

I've never bought a comic I didn't read... though I have bought comics I've read and wished I had never bought. 

I buy them for the art, then for the story.  I guess that makes me a sucker for a nice cover... well so be it, sometimes that's the only good thing a comic has going for it (but if the story really sucks I'm certainly not going to buy that title again).  But the last thing on my mind is resale value... but I'm not going to lie to you and say it's not nice to have them appreciate in value.  Nor do I think it's a bad thing that comics are now desired and coveted by people in some way (if not for all the "proper" reasons we would wish)... it's a far better fate for them to be locked in some bank vault than blaming them for the ills of society and throwing them into bonfires. 

[OtherEric]

I try really hard not to care what my books are supposedly worth.  I can't always help myself, though.  :

[cimmerian32]

http://comics.gpanalysis.com/default.asp

They track sales of CGC'd books...  site has market reports, and up-to-date info on auctions, breakdowns on yearly averages, highest/lowest price, and all this for each grade, across a vast amount of books.

[bchat]

I think the barriers to entering the auction space are pretty high now (not technical barriers, but perception barriers... trust building), with ebay (for general merchandise) and Heritage (for high end collectibles) pretty much it... and maybe Amazon possibly, if they were to add auctions to their business model.  These three (or some combination of them, after mergers) would be the sole basis for the daily pricing info... the problem is getting this info.  They might not want to share it freely... in fact they might start a composite index themselves.  Free stock quotes are commonplace today, but not just seven or eight years ago.   I don't know who these "comic dealers" are, or how they would arm twist the exchanges (presumably ebay and Heritage) into manipulating pricing data, there would simply be people with comics to sell and people who want to buy them.  They would have to buy and sell them on the "exchange" for a price reflective of both the perceived value of the object and the costs of the acquisition.  The one problem I might see is that perhaps things would have to change a bit for the exchanges, the costs of a "transaction" would need to be normalized to a fixed pricing scheme, regardless of the value of the comic book... but then you run into the problem of how many transactions would need to be made to support the exchange and so on, which in turn could lead to other problems of excess.  Overall not an easy balancing act indeed.

I was talking about a site that was more along the lines of an up-to-date price guide, not an "exchange center" where comics were bought and sold.  As a "price guide", having "comic dealers" running the show would be bad, as they would be tempted to artificially inflate prices so they would make more money on comics they want to move.  Having actual collectors running the site would [in theory] mean that the site was more honest in its pricing.  Manipulating the pricing data would be extremely easy, so the hope is that only honest people are in charge.

I've never bought a comic I didn't read... though I have bought comics I've read and wished I had never bought. 

I buy them for the art, then for the story.  I guess that makes me a sucker for a nice cover... well so be it, sometimes that's the only good thing a comic has going for it (but if the story really sucks I'm certainly not going to buy that title again).  But the last thing on my mind is resale value... but I'm not going to lie to you and say it's not nice to have them appreciate in value.

Only talking about comics I buy for myself, not ones I buy & sell, it's a combination of characters & artwork.  My fondness of a particular character will usually outweigh a negative opinion of an artist, such as when I continued getting The Avengers even though Al Milgrom [whose artwork makes me feel good about how I draw] was pencilling it.  I've never gotten into writers like some collectors do.  No offense to any writers intended, but I really view them as being "a dime a dozen".  There are, however, a few writers I DON'T like who can keep me from buying a book if I know they're connected with it.  Honestly though, for me, the stories can be poorly written as long as I have something worth looking at.

I've never sat around going through a price guide to see what books in my collection are worth ... I simply don't care, and to be honest, most of my collection isn't all that collectible [well, in my mind anyway, but who knows for sure? ... is there a large demand for "Monsters From Outer Space", "Phantom Force" or "Faze 1 Fazers"?]  When I sell books from my own personal collection, I'm happy when they're worth more than I paid for them, but most of the time I get about half that if I'm lucky.

[Drusilla lives!]

http://comics.gpanalysis.com/default.asp

They track sales of CGC'd books...  site has market reports, and up-to-date info on auctions, breakdowns on yearly averages, highest/lowest price, and all this for each grade, across a vast amount of books.

Come to think of it, yeah I think they do... but I think you have to be a paying member of the "Collector's Society" or whatever they call themselves.  It's been awhile since I was over to their site.  I've only got one of those "free" memberships that they were offering a few years back.

But getting back to bchat's post from yesterday.  The problems I think you're worried about stem from the two systemic problems in the online auction processes we have now.  

(i) The auction systems are "value" based, not "transaction" based... in other words, unlike when one goes to sell stocks on a stock exchange where you pay a flat fixed fee for the transaction, when you go to auction off a comic you pay a fee based on the value of the book (in addition to a transaction fee).  This can indeed lead to price rigging if not regulated carefully.

(ii) The second inherent flaw is that when you go to a site like ebay (and even Heritage to some extent) to auction off (or buy) a comic, you enter into "a" auction, not "the" auction for the specific item.  In other words, unlike when you go to sell a stock on a stock exchange where there is only one never ending auction for that stock, here you enter one of many such auctions... each potentially with its own set of buyers and sellers, with their own bids and asks.  In order for there to be a real, meaningful "quote" and/or closing price, a single auction space must be established (or through mergers of competing companies, emerge) with auctions for each individual comic "type" (one for each title, issue number, and condition).

Ebay was not established to sell comic books, it was established to sell general merchandise... ceramic beaded indian bracelets, "Bolex" watches and ones unwanted castoffs.  Basically, it's a glorified garage sale... where people come "hunting" for "bargains."  It's rife with charlatans and crooks (both on the buying and selling side), and many uninformed, gullible dupes.  Right off the bat, it's perception in one's eye (at least my eye, anyway) is not that of a place concerned with efficiency in the pricing mechanisms it employs, but of getting as much "stuff" sold as possible in anyway possible.  But then neither is Heritage that much better it appears at the "efficient market" game... here we have a high end auction house where the dupes have bigger wallets, but are still dupes nonetheless.  At least here the sellers know what they're selling and most of the time they treat the merchandise with the respect it deserves. But somewhere between these two extremes is the truth... that is, the true value of what comics are worth as an investment.

For meaningful, fair, data on comic book values to be realized, a trading system has to develop where comics (and only comics) are traded regularly in a single never ending dedicated auction space for each "type" of comic ("typed" by title, issue and condition).  And trading fees are fixed and "transaction" based.  

How does one get there from here... the first step in this process is to adopt an unbiased independent set of standards on the grading of comic books with regard to condition.  We almost have that with the CGC.  Then an auction system must be developed devoted only to the exchange of comic books.  Then this auction system must become the accepted exchange for all or almost all such transactions.  

Overall, a very large task indeed in my opinion.  And we may never get there if people continue to delude themselves into thinking there isn't an "investment" aspect to their comics.