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Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.

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topic icon Author Topic: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.  (Read 42375 times)

Yoc

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2009, 04:15:24 AM »

Hi Fett,
Yep, that would be me trying to simplify the file names to avoid any server problems.  In the great crash of 08 we found long, complicated file names, especially those with a lot of special characters - were more prone to being broken links.
I promise from now on nobody's file names will be tweaked beyond the actual title to match the name scheme of those already on the site.

-Yoc, still very tired.
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JVJ

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2009, 04:44:19 AM »


Well Jim, in a perfect word each scan uploaded from now on will include those but as scans are coming in fast and furious from a variety of sources getting them all to include this info will likely be very hit and miss.So if time is available I'll add it but if I'm really busy it wont be there.  That's the best I can do.

I hope you can understand the predicament.

-Yoc the very tired

Of COURSE I do, Yoc,
This is a far from perfect world, and there is NEVER enough time. We all do what we can with what time we have. Your efforts are of inestimable value to all of us here. Like everything else in life, however, if you don't ask or make the initial effort, NOTHING ever happens. So I ask. I've long since learned that sometimes the answer is "no". C'est la vie.

No pressure from me. It was simply an idea that seemed to make sense to at least strive for in future uploads. If it happens, great. If not, I know that I at least put the notion out there and that perhaps it resulted in SOME listings that might help some newbie somewhere down the line. And that's a good thing.

Peace, Jim (|:{> (and 1 Karma for all that you do...)
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rez

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2009, 05:08:39 AM »

How did Triple Threat Comics get the Croydon Publishing title for in the publisher groupings?
The indicia said at Holyoke, Mass by Special Action Comics, Inc?

I just like to learn these things.
Thanks
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Yoc

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2009, 06:18:45 AM »

Thanks for understanding Jim. 
If publisher/year had been stressed in the initial start-up phase it might have been easier.
Using the 'Author' phrase instead of 'Uploader' has caused a few headaches as well.

Now perhaps Jim can explain Triple Threat - if it needs to be moved just say the word.  Moving books around is fairly painless for us mods.
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archiver_USA

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2009, 12:46:14 PM »


How did Triple Threat Comics get the Croydon Publishing title for in the publisher groupings?
The indicia said at Holyoke, Mass by Special Action Comics, Inc?

I just like to learn these things.
Thanks


There was a printing plant at Holyoke, Mass., which was part of Sherman H. Bowles printing empire. Many comics listed Holyoke, Mass., as it was the printer location. The real key piece of data for Triple Threat is the address for Special Action Comics, Inc., which is 49 Hawkins Street, Derby, Conn., which is the same address used by the Charlton Comics Group:
http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/logos/index.cfm?data=charlton

The production of the material came from a third-party source, like all early Charlton books before they created their own in-house production staff. JVJ can better speak to this point. But basically, Triple Threat Comics is a Charlton, not Croydon, book.

Bowles and Holyoke Printing became a comic book publisher when they acquired characters from Victor Fox (most notably Blue Beetle) and from Frank Temerson (most notably Cat-Man). In the case of Victor Fox, we know this was due to debts owed to Bowles. Fox would later sue to regain the rights back from Holyoke for his franchise character:
http://www.comicartville.com/victorfoxpg2.htm

Also, "Holyoke" has for a long time been a catch-all for books from non-obvious publishers. Similarly Croydon and/or Rural Home have also been used for the same purpose.  You can get a better sense of what/who/when/where books were published and see clear distinctions between Holyoke Publishing (Bowles), Continental Magazines (Temerson), Universal Comic Group (Baird, et. al.), and Wanted Comic Group (Hermann):
http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/logos/index.cfm

I've been contributing indicia and ownership statement scans to this project and I think it is currently the best place to check to see who published what and when.

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Yoc

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2009, 03:12:26 PM »

It's a great resource A_U thanks to everyone who works on it.
I'll move Triple Threat to Charlton.

-Yoc
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rez

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2009, 03:35:07 PM »

I'll move Triple Threat to Charlton.

heh
Now MY brain has exploded!
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JVJ

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2009, 03:43:18 PM »


How did Triple Threat Comics get the Croydon Publishing title for in the publisher groupings?
The indicia said at Holyoke, Mass by Special Action Comics, Inc?

I just like to learn these things.
Thanks

In a perfect world it would be as easy as archiver_USA makes it sound. EVERYTHING he says is right, but the conclusion he draws (Special Action Comics = Charlton) is probably not. Here's why I think that:

I believe that just as Holyoke was originally a printer, so was the company at 49 E Hawkins St in Derby Conn. Triple Threat was published in 1945 - a period of wartime paper shortages and not too many Charlton (or pre-Charlton) comic books. The company that would become Charlton's (TCTWBC) first title, Yellowjacket, began in 1944 with artwork supplied by the Lloyd Jacquet Funnies Inc. shop. It was followed in 1945 by Zoo Funnies. TCTWBC was started, it seems, to take advantage of the wartime demand for comic books. To attribute an overriding plan or corporate structure to The Frank Communale company is possible ONLY in retrospect. There were dozens of other "publishers" who were doing exactly the same thing.

And that "thing" was scouring the countryside looking for someone (anyone) with a paper allocation with which they could print a comic book and take advantage of the demand. Printers had paper allowances, as did many small publications. If you think for a second, you'll figure out the origins of Swappers Quarterly, Farm Women's Publishing, Rural Home, etc. With the advent of WWII, these magazines folded and entrepeneurs like Comunale and Levy, Bernard Baily and others went to out of the way places (like Derby Connecticut and even Central America) to print their forays into the lucrative field of comic books.

Bernard Baily published Triple-Threat. It features characters owned by his shop (Duke of Darkness, Epod, Beau Brummel, etc.). It was "published" at 49 E. Hawkins st because the printer there was the source of the paper allocation that Baily used to print it. Just as it was the source of TCTWBC's paper for Yellowjacket. Normally, a shared address would indicate a common editorial function, but in 1944 and 1945, that simply wasn't so.

So, there is no overriding reason to lump Triple Threat into the Croydon camp other than our very human need to organize and name thing. Almost every book that Baily published had a different publisher (IF it even had one listed). There is a continuity and connection that is indicated by the contents and the artists and the history of the Baily Shop (that is currently being researched by Ken Quattro). This is NOT to imply that every comic to which Bernard Baily's shop contributed to was published by him. The is patently not true. BUT, there ARE a lot of titles that originated at this time from the Baily Shop that have NO connection to publishers previous or contemporary. They cry out to be organized into a lump of "Produced and Published by Bernard Baily on paper rations he got from somewhere."

And for reasons unbeknownst to me, one of those "paper companies", Croydon, was chosen to indicate that grouping. Just as BIP Comics site lists various "publishers of record" for Charlton, Croydon (if you're going to buy into the Baily groupings overall name) needs to have Special Action listed under it. The coincidence of the 49 E. Hawkins address is not so startling if you understand the economic impetus that brought both Baily and TCTWBC to the same place during 1945. And the copyright of Triple Threat is just as likely to indicate the winter of 1944/45 as that of 1945/46. If it's the former, then it's even LESS likely that three issues into their foray into comics, TCTWBC would hire Baily to produce a one-shot title featuring characters that had already appeared elsewhere and were going nowhere.

my 2
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 05:58:34 PM by JVJ »
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rez

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2009, 03:51:21 PM »

So might it simplify matters for the site to group by the publisher listed in each indicia for the sake of clarity?
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Yoc

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2009, 04:15:57 PM »

Most of the time we do Rez
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archiver_USA

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Yoc

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2009, 04:26:53 PM »

Frankly it's a big bloody mess!
For many reasons I already mention and many more besides publishers changed names faster than underwear.
All their jumping around makes us here have to decide what goes where.  Not everyone will agree and as Jim mentioned it can be discouraging trying to find a book.

But what'ya'gonna'do right?
:-\
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archiver_USA

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2009, 04:39:24 PM »


The Frank Communale company is possible ONLY in retrospect.


In re: Frank Comunale...

"Phil Stephenson-Payne mistakenly connects here the 1946 one-shot Chief Detective, from Blackerby, with the 1950 3 issue run from Frank Comunale. The latter is Charlton, the publishers name an Italian in-joke.

Don't call me chief.

Mike Feldman"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ComicBookPublishers/message/319

(I just recall reading that and went looking for it...)
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rez

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2009, 05:05:18 PM »




PUNT!
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archiver_USA

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2009, 05:37:47 PM »


PUNT!


With all that said, it could go either way (Baily v. Charlton), but clearly Croydon is the wrong answer. :)
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OtherEric

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2009, 06:15:15 PM »

I have nothing useful to add but I want people to know I'm fascinated by the discussion. (I know people can wonder when others don't throw in something.  :D )
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archiver_USA

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2009, 06:18:53 PM »



But it is only in hindsight that we can even SAY that there was something called Charlton that might purchase such a Baily product. It is FAR more likely that both TCTWBC and Baily simply utilized the same paper source. In 1945, Santangelo/Levy simply weren't what they would become. Eventually (I think) they purchased the printing plant in Derby - forever cementing their association with the site. The question I DON'T know the answer to is: Did they own the business at 49 E. Hawkins St in 1945? If not, then looking at the 1945 transactions in that light provides a different "likely" scenario than if they were the owners in 1945.

Does anyone know the answer to that question?



I can't give a complete answer, but the history notes I have show:
1936 Santangelo and Levy open a printing plant in Waterbury, CT
1940 Santangelo and Levy move their printing press to Derby.
1940 Charlton Press acquires 20 acres of land, including the 4.615-acre lot on Division Street that would become the new site of Charlton
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archiver_USA

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2009, 06:25:16 PM »

So, if Charlton had their own printing facility in Derby in 1940, its more than likely that it was the facility at 49 Hawkins where all their comics were published prior to April 1946 when things moved to the new place.... which is one of the factors I took into consideration when I submitted Special Action Comics as a Charlton entity at BIP.
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Yoc

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2009, 07:58:29 PM »

Yep, Jim was right... I can see tiny bits of brain floating on the floor. Not a pretty sight, nope.  tsk tsk.
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archiver_USA

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2009, 08:04:05 PM »


Yep, Jim was right... I can see tiny bits of brain floating on the floor. Not a pretty sight, nope.  tsk tsk.


Nobody ever said it was going to be easy. :)

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JVJ

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2009, 08:34:12 PM »


So, if Charlton had their own printing facility in Derby in 1940, its more than likely that it was the facility at 49 Hawkins where all their comics were published prior to April 1946 when things moved to the new place.... which is one of the factors I took into consideration when I submitted Special Action Comics as a Charlton entity at BIP.

You are absolutely accurate, archiver,
BUT the point I will insist on trying to make is that the "printer" is not necessarily the "publisher" and that Baily was going around to all kinds of PRINTERS in order to PUBLISH his comics.

Yes, Santangelo and Levy moved their presses to Derby in 1940, and it is LIKELY that the 49 Hawkins street is the address of their plant. These facts do not mean that they didn't print material for other people (as they eventually did for Harvey Kurtzman's Humbug in the late 1950s). Charlton did not publish Humbug - Kurtzman, Roth, Elder, etc. published Humbug. Charlton printed it. I still maintain (granted, with no proof beyond what I can see with eyes) that Triple-Threat was not published by Charlton. Beyond that, none of us can say more with much certainty.

These are ONLY my opinions stated here. Always. I make no claim to infallibility or any great insider knowledge.

If you'd like, I can make a case for Continental and Orbit being the same publisher. Someday I'll share that with you.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Yoc

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2009, 09:00:41 PM »

Perhaps Triple Threat should just go into Unsorted?
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archiver_USA

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2009, 09:02:03 PM »


You are absolutely accurate, archiver,
BUT the point I will insist on trying to make is that the "printer" is not necessarily the "publisher" and that Baily was going around to all kinds of PRINTERS in order to PUBLISH his comics.


I agree that the printer isn't always necessarily the publisher, but in this case I strongly think that the material for Triple Threat was Baily produced, Charlton published "Special Action", and Holyoke printed based on the available evidence. The indicia mentions both Holyoke, Mass., and 49 Hawkins Street, Derby, Conn.  I've never seen the Hawkins Street address used outside of Charlton published material. Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise?
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Yoc

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Re: Publisher Groupings on the Download Site.
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2009, 09:21:17 PM »

When you and Jim agree let me know and I'll move Triple or I can chance the description to whatever you feel explains it best.

-YOc
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